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Earthbound Celestial

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by False Sense, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    [​IMG]Earthbound Celestial[​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Hello, Smogon! Welcome to my latest RMT! After the HUGE success of my last RMT, a collaboration with Gary2346, I decided to try using some of the stuff I learned from it to try and make yet another great team.

    So, this team in particular is a Balanced team based around Jirachi. Sub CM Jirachi, to be exact. In the past, I used to use Jirachi on pretty much all my teams, usually as the Specially Defensive set. While it was always a star player on the field, it was never the focus of any of my teams. After sitting out of Dark Miracle, I thought it was high time I gave Jirachi a starring role on my next team. So for this, I wanted to try and test out the viability of SubCM Jirachi outside of Rain, where it's usually found exclusively. I also wanted to make this team less "offensive" than the last team, instead focusing a little more on being able to handle just about any threat that's thrown at the team. I don't know for sure whether or not I achieved that goal, but I think I came close. With your help, perhaps I can reach it!

    So without further ado, let's get into the RMT!
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    [​IMG]Team Building Process[​IMG]

    As I stated in the introduction, I wanted to base this team off of SubCM Jirachi. So it was logically the first member of the team.

    [​IMG]

    So what does SubCM Jirachi do, and what stops it from doing it? It sweeps teams by using it's solid bulk and Calm Mind to become virtually invincible, all the while boosting it's Special Attack. The main problem is Ground types. Earthquake hits through Jirachi's more vulnerable defense, and Grounds are typically physically bulky, making Psyshock very weak. So to answer these Ground-type nuisances, I picked Life Orb Latias to switch into their quakes and blast them with Surfs, as well as breaking down walls for Jirachi to sweep.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    So I wanted to make this team capable of handling all sorts of threats, including weather. Latias already does great against both weathers, so I wanted to add a defensive core that could handle them as well. Heatran and Jellicent sprang to mind as two pokemon who work fantastically against Sun and Rain, respectively.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    At this point, I unfortunately only had Special Attackers. That, and none of them could really break through Bulky Waters to well, which could be costly. To remedy this, I decided to add Breloom to the team for it's devastating firepower and Spore, which my team loves.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    So the teams looking pretty good at the moment. But I didn't really have a revenge killer, and certain threats like Mamoswine could be a potential pain. Choice Band Scizor was added to help check faster threats and that annoying Mamoswine.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG]Individual Analysis[​IMG]


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers[​IMG]
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Spd / 80 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psyshock

    The star of the team.... literally. Puns aside, despite usually being found on rain teams, this thing functions great outside of them as well. Jirachi is capable of ripping teams apart that lack strong physical attackers or had them removed earlier on in the battle. Once it starts accumulating boosts it's exceedingly difficult to stop it from destroying everything.

    The set here is pretty standard. Calm Mind and Substitute form the crux of the set, protecting Jirachi from dangerous status conditions and critical hits, while allowing Jirachi to boosts it's offenses and defenses at once. As the boosts accumulate, it's substitutes become even more difficult to break through, and even the strongest special attacks won't be able to muscle through. Tunderbolt and Psyshock are here to provide the best neutral coverage and gives Jirachi pseudo-mixed capabilities. Thunderbolt is great for all the Water types present in OU, and thanks to Serene Grace it has a chance of crippling whatever it hits with paralysis. Psyshock is Jirachi's main STAB move, which hits incredibly hard after some boosts and helps Jirachi out against Special walls or opposing Calm Minders.

    Jirachi's job on the team is to basically prey on an opening provided and use it to set up it's sweep to wreck the opposing team. Once it's counters are removed (Ground Types), it's exceedingly easy to boost up to a point where Jirachi is untouchable. I've had a lot of games where people surrendered once Jirachi got going. It's that good.

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    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Latias @ Life Orb[​IMG]
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 104 HP / 152 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Roost

    In the past, I've always used Latios over his little sister, Latias. Now that I'm finally trying her out, I can honestly say that she performs amazingly. Her huge special bulk, coupled with her solid typing, makes her ideal for fighting against weather teams, and is a perfect fit for this team. On top of that, she's incredibly fast and despite being very bulky, she still hits like a truck.

    The moveset here is pretty standard. Draco Meteor is an astoundingly powerful attack, but is a bit weaker compared to say Hydreigon's, so it needs to be used carefully. Surf is a great move to have on Latias since it easily dispatches Ground types and Heatrans, something this team really appreciates. Psyshock is another STAB move for Latias to use, and lets her reliably check fighting types that tend to give teams trouble, like Breloom, Keldeo and Terrakion. Roost is there to make Latias that much more difficult to take down, and lets her fill her role as a Tank.

    Latias' job on the team is to be an amazing tank, actually walling certain threats and retaliating with powerful blows. She's an incredibly anti-meta pokemon, and does a fantastic job at checking multiple threats at once for the team.

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Heatran @ Air Balloon[​IMG]
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 56 HP / 200 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Roar
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stealth Rock

    Heatran joins the team as a fantastic counter to Sun teams. On previous teams, I had a bad tendency to be weak to Sun teams, especially threats like Venusaur, Volcarona, and Victini. (Has anyone ever noticed that arguably the best Sun abusers all have names starting with V?) When I was building this team, I wanted to make sure I had those weaknesses covered quickly. Heatran does so wonderfully.

    Heatran's moveset is a standard Offensive set. Fire Blast is the obvious STAB move of death and destruction. Against Sun teams this thing has such insane power.... Roar takes the place of Earth Power to make Heatran a more reliable counter to Volcarana, as well as a stop to set up sweepers in general. HP Ice makes Heatran a good check to Dragon types in general, and gives it a weapon against Ground types that it and Jirachi loath. Speaking of Ground types, Heatran typically has the advantage over them thanks to Air Balloon, which when intact lets it switch into powerful Earthquakes and threaten with Hidden Power Ice. Stealth Rocks is self explanatory. Seriously, do I need to discuss this?

    Heatran's main purpose on the team is to check dangerous Sun teams, as well as being a powerful tank capable of opening holes in teams and walling certain threats. Together with Latias they can shut down a good portion of threats on Sun teams and turn them into ashes.

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Jellicent @ Leftovers[​IMG]
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 136 SDef / 88 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Scald
    - Taunt
    - Toxic
    - Recover

    Ahh, Jellicent, how I love you so very much. This thing is just so insanely bulky, it drives people crazy. Seriously. Jellicent typically takes around 38% or so from a Sp.Def Rotom-W's Volt Switch. A ton of people think that a Volt Switch is all they need to take on Bulky Waters, and don't pack anything stronger. I have actually faced teams that surrendered after just a few turns because they couldn't break through Jellicent. It's THAT GOOD.

    So the moveset here is standard for most Jellicent. Scald is that really annoying move that sets everything on fire constantly. It works great as a buffer against physical attackers. Tuant is a priceless utility that shuts down walls and attempts at set up. Toxic takes the place of Will-O-Wisp since the team appreciates the poison over burn, which helps prevent walls and set up sweepers from ruining my day. Scald has a good chance to burn on it's own anyway. Recover is obvious; it heals Jellicent and makes it extremely frustrating to take down. I also think that the odd EVs should have some explanation; they're designed to give Jellicent solid overall bulk, emphasizing in special defense, while giving it enough speed to outpace slower walls like Skarmory and Taunt them before they cause damage.

    Jellicent's main job on the team is to serve as a Specially defensive wall, and to just counter threats in general. Thanks to Water Absorb, it also does well against Rain teams, absorbing Hydro Pumps and Scalds and forcing switches. It's astounding walling capabilities are greatly appreciated by the team, and the number of forfeits it causes more than merits it's spot.

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    Breloom @ Toxic Orb[​IMG]
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Seed Bomb
    - Focus Punch
    - Spore

    Oh, pardon me. Did I forget to mention that this isn't a Technician Breloom? Oh well. I'm sure you're wondering "Why the heck isn't this guy running Technician Breloom? It's so much better!" Well, the answer to that is, while Technician Breloom is indeed very powerful, it was a bit too offensive for me. Lack of recovery and Life Orb recoil wore down on it quick, and it had a bad tendency to die to quickly. THIS set, on the other hand, has super-regenerating qualities that I think are more suitable.

    So this set in particular is a SubPunch set. With it's ability to force out switches because of the threat of Spore, it's very easy for it to get up a Substitute. Once that happens and Toxic Orb activates, the opponent has to deal with both a free Spore and a free Focus Punch to the face. Substitute is obviously the main draw of the set, protecting Breloom so that it can get off free attacks. Seed Bomb is a powerful STAB that swiftly deals with all those Water types found on Rain teams. Focus Punch is just devastatingly powerful, doing a huge amount to even resists, meaning if they lack recovery they run the risk of being KO'd. Spore is another key point of the set; once Breloom is safely behind a Sub, people can't just sack their least valuable pokemon to Spore; they have to go to their counter to take out the Sub, giving Breloom the chance to Spore them.

    The reason Breloom is here on the team is to serve as a powerful physical presence and a dangerous crippler on the side. The massive damage output it has, coupled with it's great survivability thanks to Poison Heal, makes it a solid member on the team.

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Scizor @ Choice Band[​IMG]
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower
    - U-turn
    - Pursuit

    So here's the final member of the team; Scizor. This thing has been number one on the usage stats for so long for a reason; it's good at what it does. Scizor is here to serve as extra physical muscle as well as the teams revenge killer, thanks to it's powerful Bullet Punch.

    Scizor here is the standard Choice Band set, actually the only Choiced pokemon on the team, which gives me some flexibility while playing. Bullet Punch is the infamous priority move revenges anything that doesn't resist it. Superpower is for when Scizor needs to break through a Steel type, or catch one on the switch. U-Turn lets Scizor grab momentum for the team and gives a free switch into a teammate. Pursuit is handy for trapping Psychics like Lati@s and the like.

    Again, Scizor's role on the team is to revenge kill dangerous threats like Salamence, Terrakion and Mamoswine. While not the MVP of the team by any means, he provides valuable backup support for the team and keeps them safe during emergency situations.

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    [​IMG]Credits[​IMG]

    Well, there isn't a whole lot more to say here. I've had a lot of fun using this team, especially since it causes so many rage quits. : ) So, I hope that you all with give some nice rates and hopefully make this team even better! If you have any ideas that would make this team better, don't hesitate to leave a rate.

    Oh, and Luvdisc if you like!​
  2. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Hey!

    I'm not that great with balanced but it seems quite solid. Opposing CM Jirachi look like a huge issue to your team, as well as SD Lucario (Crunch variants). SD Breloom looks like its quite threatening at +2, although everyone is too stupid to realize that when you run Technician Breloom you run Swords Dance (cause fuck stall) and not that crappy Focus Punch or Low Sweep so technically you should be fine. CB TTar also looks intimidating.

    Firstly, I think I'll tweak that Jirachi set. I'm currently running a Heavy Offensive Rain (well, technically Politoed isn't offensive enough to warrant "heavy" in front of its name, but what else am I supposed to call it?) and I'm using SubCM Jirachi as well. I found that maximum speed is not really a neccessity (especially with (thunder)bolt paralyzing everything anyway), so I would go with 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spe, fast enough to outpace positive nature Deoxys-D and lower. That 80 SpA gives you a bit of an oomph in my opinion that otherwise, at +2, its still quite weaker without the small investment.

    On Heatran, by running Timid, you could use an EV spread of 142 HP / 252 SpA / 116 Spe to outpace Adamant Breloom, that way it isn't too threatening (they will probably spore Heatran, which case you can outpace and Fire Blast).

    By replacing Focus Punch for Drain Punch, not only are you a bit more bulkier for those rain teams but it also is quite reliable for opposing Lucario and Tyranitar

    I would replace Earth Power on Heatran for the move Roar so you can phaze out Jirachi.

    Quite solid. I'm not much of a balanced player so sadly I don't want to replace any Pokemon so I don't ruin your synergy. I feel that these fixes should certainly help though :) Good Luck
  3. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Hi Shurtugal! Thanks for the rate!

    So I can see that most of your suggestions are changes to EV's, which I think is perfectly fine. I'll give those EV's a try and see if they're more efficient.

    I'm not really sure about Drain Punch, since Focus Punch is really kind of the basis for the set. Also, I don't know if that would really help out against Lucario/Tyranitar anymore than Focus Punch would. Lucario would probably just murder Breloom before it could Drain Punch it, and Tyranitar can be Spored or be used to set up a Sub.

    Roar over Earth Power is an interesting option. I'd miss the coverage, but it could be more helpful in the long run. I'll give it a try.

    Again, thanks for the rate!
  4. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Hey buddy! Got your VM.

    After you boned my undefeated team, I really knew that this team had great potential, and after reading this RMT I can definitely see why. You have a great FWG core, an underrated wall in the form of Jellicent, 3 big counters to Rain and Sun, and the use of CM Jirachi, who most really underestimate. Makes it even better since most don't usually see a CM Jirachi on a non rain team! Anyways, on to the rate!

    I must commend you again on how great this team is. It seems to all fit together like some kind of puzzle. There's only a couple things I need to really address. First off, your Heatran needs to be running a Timid nature over a Modest. Why? Well since your Heatran is designed to catch Gliscor and Dragon types by surprise, you need to be able to out speed key threats such as Adamant Dragonite, and 72 Speed Gliscor which is quite common on the Sub Toxic sets. Although Heatran has an Air Balloon, all it takes is one hit for your safeguard against these threats to vanish, meaning that later on in the match you might not be able to take them out because you can't out speed them. You can keep the EVs the same, however a Timid nature lets you out speed Defensive Gliscor and Adamant Dragonite, which can come in a lot of handy when your Air Balloon is broken. I've always used to run a Modest nature on my Heatran for the fire power, but ever since I've switched to Timid I've never looked back. Surprisingly, the power loss isn't that noticeable. Preserving the Air Balloon is important, however with a Modest Nature you will find it very hard to switch in Heatran safely so it can save it's Balloon for Gliscor and Dragonite, but with a Timid Nature you don't have to do that. Your EV spread is perfect, and you don't even need full 252 investment, 200 Spd EVs are just fine. It also lets you out speed Jolly Breloom, who can no longer out speed and Spore Heatran or even Low Sweep.

    The biggest crippling problem your team has is that it's rather slow. Although Jirachi and Latias are by no means slow, DD Salamence and DD Dragonite can absolutely demolish your team. With the move set of Outrage/DD/Earthquake/Fire Blast, Mence can hit pretty much everyone on your team for super effective damage, while Jellicent barely survives a +1 EQ. A similar outcome will happen with Dragonite, but what's worse is that he's bulkier. An easy fix to this is a Choice Scarfer, which I already see that you have a perfect candidate for it. Why don't you try changing Latias to a Choice Scarf Latias in order to check these dangerous threats. Choice Scarf Latias is like a bulkier Latios, still countering weather like its LO set, but being able to out speed most of the unboosted meta game and stopping DD Salamence and Nite cold. Her move set is quite simple, Draco Meteor/Psyshock/Surf/Healing Wish. Healing Wish is something that Latias can use as a last resort to heal one of your key sweepers, such as Scizor, Breloom, or Jirachi late game. It may not often see use, but when it does it could win you the battle.

    Other then that, your team is fantastic! Keep up the good work dude, and test out my suggestions, while I highly recommend you take my Latias suggestion without even testing because of how important it is XD. However, it's your team.

    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Healing Wish


    tl;dr: [​IMG] Modest Nature -----> Timid
    [​IMG] Life Orb Tank -----> Choice Scarf
  5. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Hi Gary! Thanks for the rate!

    Yeah, I admit that Gliscor is a bit of a pain at times. I can usually deal with it, but the fact that Breloom and Jirachi are both shut down by it annoys me. Timid Heatran might be a good idea for that purpose.

    Now Choice Scarf Latias.... Interesting idea. The main problem I have with that is that I lose out on versatility and survivability for that extra speed. But it might be worth it to check those dangerous threats. I'll definitely give both your suggestions a try.

    Again, thanks for the rate!
  6. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    I understand your concern, however it's almost a staple to have a Choice Scarfer on every team because....pretty much everyone else is running a Choice Scarfer. There sole purpose it to revenge kill, and Latias fits that role perfectly. Remember, you have Jellicent for Rain and Heatran for Sun, so you really don't need more. Latias can still switch into Close Combats, Hydro Pumps, and Fire Blasts if necessary. If you want to, you could always run Recover over Healing Wish, but then again you'll be locked into it. However, since she forces a lot of switches, she wont have much of a hard time doing it.
  7. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

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    Hey man, you've got yourself a good team here. It's refreshing to see a weatherless team and one with SubPunch Breloom at that, so props to you. The only things I see wrong are relatively minor issues in EV spreads. Before I get to that, don't use Scarf Latias. Have you ever used Scarf Latios? Latias is even weaker than that. It's setup fodder and Pursuit fodder. Latias is best-suited to a Life Orb or Calm Mind set. As for your Latias, you need to fix that EV spread. The best spread I've used on Life Orb Latias is 104 HP / 152 SAtk / 252 Spd. The most notable thing the Special Attack EVs do for Latias is allow it to OHKO Keldeo, which is absolutely crucial. The extra Special Attack investment you have doesn't help with anything, while extra bulk always helpful on a Pokemon that's going to be worn down easily throughout the match. I'll also second Shurtugal's suggestions for Jirachi's and Heatran's EVs. Those should serve you well.
  8. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
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    Hi! Thanks for the rate! Much appreciated!

    Well, I see we have conflicting interests here. My question to pokemon0078 is what do you think about a Choice Scarfer on the team? Is it necessary? If so, then what do you propose instead of Latias?

    Other than that, I'll be sure to give those EV's a try.

    Thanks for the rate!
  9. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,441
    Hey, I got your request.

    So this seems like a pretty solid team, but there is something that can be fixed. Your lack of a Choice Scarf user makes you weak to a handful of threats, such as DD Dragonite (well I guess you have Heatran, but I've found Heatran to be a temporary fix at best), DD Salamence, DD Gyarados, etc. Additionally, all of your Pokemon are slower than Jolteon, and, as rare as it is, you have nothing that can switch in on it reliably, though this is mostly a problem stemming from the fact that it can 2HKO one of your Electric resists (Latias) with coverage, while Breloom is actually 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Rotom-W could be a problem for similar reasons, being able to cripple Latias (even Will-O-Wisp cripples it since it lowers its longevity), while Breloom is not a reliable switch-in, especially if Rotom-W is in Rain.... or has Choice Specs.

    Now, I get where Gary is coming at by suggesting Scarf Latias, but I just don't think it's the best of ideas. You absolutely need Latias to stay alive, and slapping a Choice Scarf on it removes that longevity that allows it to switch in on Breloom for such a long time. If Latias is down, you have... Uhh, Scizor to check Breloom? I feel like replacing Breloom would be a better idea. This metagame is very unkind to Breloom, seeing as it can only reliably Spore things that it outspeeds. With that number quite small, I just find any non-Technician Breloom to be suboptimal in this metagame, and you've made it clear in the OP that you do not want to use Technician Breloom. I find that even when you do Spore something, any good player will simply switch in a Pokemon that was not going to do much for the rest of the battle anyway. That, or switching in things like Natural Cure users, Xatu, etc., or somemtimes the Pokemon stays in and turns out to have a Lum Berry. Now, finding a Choice Scarf user to take its place isn't that easy. But, here's some changes I've got for you, given the stuff I've outlined in this post:

    -Replace Breloom with Choice Scarf Garchomp

    ScarfChomp is easily the best fit for a Scarfer on your team as it revenge kills both DDMence and DDNite with ease. Gyarados is a bit more trouble for it since Stone Edge does not OHKO, but the most common Gyarados are always downed by Stone Edge after Stealth Rock. Garchomp keeps the most important resistances Breloom had, Electric and Rock. The biggest problem is that you lose a resistance to Ground, but Latias should be able to switch in on Ground moves for days. Breloom wasn't a reliable switch-in to Ground moves anyway.

    -Replace Jellicent with Gastrodon.

    Ugh, I cannot believe I am actually suggesting this. I honestly believe Gastrodon is by far the worst Pokemon in OU, but for some reason I feel like it could help you. Gastrodon pretty much singlehandedly ends your slight Jolteon weakness (nobody uses HP Grass), while being better against Rotom-W than Jellicent was. The only downside I can think of is that it makes you a little weaker to Keldeo, but 84 Defense EVs prevents Scarf Keldeo's Secret Sword from ever 2HKOing Gastrodon with SR, while you have Latias to handle Calm Mind variants. It can also help a little against opposing SubCM Jirachi, particularly those pain in the ass Thunder + Water Pulse variants... Have fun facing those with Latias. You lose the ability to spinblock, but the only spinner that would really be a pain in the ass without Jellicent is Starmie (switching in any other spinner on Heatran is soooooooo smart), which you should be able to beat in the long run with Gastrodon (the Defense EVs help you against Psyshock).

    That's all I've got for now. Other than these changes, I agree with Shurtugal's suggestions for Jirachi's EVs and Gary's suggestion for Heatran's nature. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Good luck!

    Sets:

    Show Hide
    Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Outrage
    - Dual Chop
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge

    Gastrodon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    - Scald
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Recover
  10. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Although I agree on the fact that Scarf Latias is Sub par, this teams weakness to boosted set up sweepers such as Nite and Mence are huge if he doesn't have something to revenge kill them. The only thing they have to do is get one of them in on a free turn, and it's pretty much a train wreck from there. The only thing I can think of to combat this without a Scarfer, is to somehow cripple these sweepers early on in the match with Will-O-Wisp or enough Stealth Rock switch ins so Scizor can revenge kill them. However, a smart player will know not to bring in Mence or Nite early on in a match to risk their chances. The only reason I didn't recommend a different Scarfer, is because his team is built so well that I would hate to change anything up. He could use a Scarfed Latios, but then he wouldn't be able to take hits nearly as well. I myself, use a LO Latias on almost every single team I build, however Scarfed Latias is by no means bad, and you can't really draw a conclusion on how effective she would be on the team when you haven't even tried it.

    EDIT: Dear God people I get the point. He just needs a Scarfer of some kind. But seriously, don't diss Scarfed Latias. It's by no means bad.
  11. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I agree with Gary
  12. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
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    407
    Looks like this RMT is getting some nice attention! Thanks for all the rates!

    So, to adress LucaroarkZ's rate....
    Choice Scarf Garchomp is an interesting option. I actually had one on the team at an earlier beta point. Didn't quite make the cut. The main problem I have with Garchomp is that without Breloom, I lose a couple of things. One is Spore, which is a priceless utility. Another is that STAB Seed Bomb it provides, which is my main answer to Bulky Waters. I know from experience that without a solid answer to those things, you'll have a really bad time. And then there's Poison Heal, which gives me a pokemon to switch into status, which is incredibly helpful. I'm hesitant to replace it with Garchomp, but I'll give it a try.

    Gastrodon is something I considered for the team but never really tried out. I'd miss Taunt and the immunity to Fighting, but it would be nice to have an answer to electric attacks. I'll need to test it out and see if Fighting types become too much of a problem without Jellicent.

    Now, about the Choice Scarf issue in general, I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on that. At the moment I apparently have two opposing sides for and against Choice Scarf Latias, and I'd appreciate more feedback or new ideas to help clarify the situation.
    For anyone who wants to know, I personally think that the most replaceable member of the team at the moment is Scizor. The main thing he provides the team is Priority, which might not be necessary if a Choice Scarfer took his place. I've tried this before, but Scarfers like Garchomp over Scizor opened me up to Mamoswine and the like. Bottom line, I'd like to hear more suggestions about possible Choice Scarfers and what team member they would replace. If anyone knows of a good Scarfer to replace Scizor, that would be much appreciated. Of course, if you think that Scizor is necessary for the team and that there's a better alternative, I'd like to hear that too.

    Well, I hope to get some nice feedback from everyone! Thanks again for all the support!
  13. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
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    139
    Duggy running sashreversal oblierates Heatran, Modest Offensive Volcarona with Giga Drain, FIre Blast, and Bug Buzz QDances once, sweeps entire team. In fact, Volcy ohkos latias without anyboosts.

    Replace Scizor with ScarfMoxieGyarados (resists all 3 offensive Volcarona's standard moves and is only 2HKOed by HP Rock, unboosted). Also Mamo can't OHKO Gyarados with Icicle Crash unless rocks are up.

    Gyarados @ Scarf
    Moxie
    Adamant
    4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    -Waterfall
    -Ice fang
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge

    Gyarados synergizes with Breloom (Loom resists rock and electric, Gyarados has bulk to take fire, ice, flying, poison, and bug moves)

    And Heatran (immune to Ground, resists fighting and water)
  14. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    First off, Dugtrio obliterates ALL Heatran that don't run Air Balloon. Mine does, so it's protected from Dugtrio. It also walls most Volcarona, and I might be adding Roar on Heatran to make it more Anti-Volcarona.

    Scarf Gyarados I'm a little uncertain about. The major problem is that it's weak to Stealth Rocks, limiting the number of times it can switch in, and it's relatively slow, meaning faster boosted threats can outspeed and kill it. It does have some merit to it, though, being able to revenge kill while not being totally Mamoswine weak. I'll give it some thought.
  15. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
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    Ok, so I updated the RMT with a few minor changes I made:

    -Latias now has an EV spread of 252 Spd / 104 HP / 152 SAtk, as suggested by pokemon0078.
    -Jirachi now has an EV spread of 252 HP / 176 Spd / 80 SAtk, as suggested by Shurtugal.
    -Heatran now has a Timid Nature, as suggested by Gary2346.

    Thanks to everyone who made these suggestions! I think the EV/Nature changes have made the team a bit more effective now, with each pokemon now being able to perform their role a bit more efficiently.

    I still haven't decided about a Choice Scarfer or any of the larger changes suggested. I'll keep testing to see what's most effective. In the meantime, continue to rate and share your ideas! Any feedback at all is much appreciated!
  16. asterat

    asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
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    This team is damn solid, the only problem I can see is a massive volcarona weakness. Scizor, breloom, and jirachi will die to fiery dance, while jellicent is fodder especially in sun. Heatran can get set up on and latias falls to bug buzz. Mamoswine is also kind of a bitch to this team. Maybe a dragon dance gyarados, over jellicent or something could help you out. A more SpD set on breloom with leech seed would make up for jellicent's walling capabilities. You can't protect much of anything with ghost typing anyways. Using it over latias could work too I guess. If you want using amoonguss/roserade over breloom to make up for the loss of jellicent would work too. Gyarados gets rid of volcarona and mamoswine with ease (if it has intimidate).
  17. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
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    407
    Thanks for the rate Asterat!

    Well, the Volcarona weakness is present, I suppose... But there's a much simpler solution then replacing a team member. Shurtugal suggested Roar on Heatran to give it a phazing move, and I think that might be a good idea. That would solve the Volcarona weakness completely, since without boosts Heatran walls it.

    Now, Mamoswine can be annoying, but that is the primary reason I have Scizor. I'm not sure if getting rid of Jellicent for Gyarados would help to much against Mamoswine, and even with a defensive Breloom I'd lose a lot of defensive ability. Not to mention, it's Stealth Rock weak and lacks Revoery, problems that Jellicent doesn't have. Sorry, but I'm not sure if a Gyarados is right for the team.
  18. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude Different breed imo
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
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    1,362
    Hey nice team!

    Looking at your team it looks like Tyranitar can be an issue. It can Pursuit trap Latias and Jellicent and if it carries Earthquake it can beat Jirachi and Heatran too. While it will have a harder time against Scizor or Breloom behind a Substitute none of these Pokemon can really switch in on anything except Crunch and Breloom needs to be behind a Substitute to reliable beat Tyranitar. Also with no Choice Scarf user faster threats and set up sweepers can sweep your team if it is weakenend.

    To help your team deal with Tyranitar easier and provide you with a good revenge killer I suggest a Choice Scarf Terrakion>Breloom With its great speed and Close Combat Terrakion can easily dispose of Tyranitar and Lucario's that lack Bullet Punch which Shurtugal mentioned was a threat to your team. Also with its good speed it acts as a safety net to fast Pokemon like Salamence and Thunderous-T. You don't lose much without Breloom because Terrakion still provides you with a great fighting-type and source of physical offense, but Terrakions revenge killing qualities is what makes him a better fit to your team. Terrakion is also capable of sweeping lategame with Close Combat if your opponents team is weakened enough.

    Good luck with the team I hope I helped!

    Set
    Show Hide
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf | Jolly
    Justified | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Close Combat | Stone Edge | Earthqauke | X-Scissor

    TL;DR
    Show Hide
    Show Hide

    Breloom--->Terrakion



    ~Superpowerdude
  19. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
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    407
    Hi Superpowerdude! Thanks for the rate!

    Choice Scarf Terrakion huh? Well, it certainly sounds nice. The main problem I have with it is the same basic problem I have with Choice Scarf Garchomp; losing Breloom means losing valuable coverage. I'm in no way saying your suggestion is bad, just that Breloom has value to the team. I unfortunately haven't had much time to test out some of these suggestions, but I'll certainly give it a try. It's quite possible that Breloom isn't as necessary to the team as I thought he was.

    Again, thanks for the rate!
  20. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ᴜияᴇᴄᴏɢиɪsαβʟᴇ
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Alright. Rating this upon request. First off, the massive offensive Volcarona weak has been pointed out by several raters. It can set up on Breloom, Jirachi, a weakened Latias, and Scizor. That's 2/3 of your team it can set up on already, and it can take out Jellicent by using Giga Drain or Heatran with Hidden Power Ground, leaving you with only one answer at worst and two answers at best. If you're dead set on running Roar over Earth Power on Heatran, then you could try using Toxic over Will-O-Wisp on Jellicent, which can be used as set-up fodder by Volcarona under the sun. Toxic allows Jellicent to turn the tables on Volcarona, draining its HP and providing you with a solid win condition against it, no matter the time of battle, and this especially helps when Volcarona happens to be the last Pokemon in the opponent's party, in which case Roar from Heatran, assuming you've decided to use that, can't do jack to it. Besides, you already have Scald for that burn chance, and while having both Scald and Will-O-Wisp is reliable, covering Volcarona is more important IMO.

    Now, I like Breloom, but I don't think it's doing too much for your team besides giving Volcarona and Mamoswine free opportunities to come in and take a chunk out of your team. You mentioned that you chose Breloom because it broke through bulky waters, so I'd recommend trying out a Nasty Plot Celebi over your Breloom. While you may refuse this change, claiming that it just makes you weaker to Volcarona and Mamoswine, the change recommended in the previous paragraph covers Volcarona, and Celebi covers bulky waters and Grounds that torment Jirachi. With Earth Power, Magnezone, a Pokemon that could theoretically trap and kill Jirachi, is soundlessly covered as well. Celebi also covers Breloom and Landorus, both of which could be large threats to your team, and relieves pressure from Latias' shoulders to keep them down. Also, thanks to Natural Cure, you can switch into status and have it removed the moment you switch out. A summarized list of changes can be seen below.

    Set:
    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers | Natural Cure
    Modest | 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe | 0 Atk
    Nasty Plot | Giga Drain | Earth Power | Psychic


    Nitpicks:
    • [​IMG] ====> [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
      • Will-O-Wisp ====> Toxic
    Anyways, hope this helps. Good luck with your team, and Luvdisc'd!
  21. False Sense

    False Sense

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    407
    Thanks for the rate Trinitrotoluene!

    Nasty Plot Celebi... It's an interesting idea, I'll say that. My problem with it is that Breloom is on the team primarily to be a powerful physical presence; without it, I rely on Scizor as my sole physical presence. That, and I don't really see much point in the change; it does check Breloom and Landorus a bit better, but those aren't really my primary concerns. I like the idea, really I do, but I kind of have very specific requirements for replacing Breloom.

    ...Ok, I must sound like the pickiest person alive now. Sorry about that.

    On the other hand, Toxic over Will-O-Wisp on Jellicent sounds like it would be a good idea. I tend to use Jellicent against Bulky Waters a lot, including other Jellicent. While Will-O-Wisp is nice, it's pretty slow in bringing them to death. Toxic would help remedy that, make Jellicent capable of standing up against Volcarona, and like you said, Scald still has that Burn chance and puts pressure on the opponent, due to the risk it presents. I'll definitely give it a try! Thanks for the suggestion!
  22. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
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    Ok, so I've tested out most of your suggestions, and I've made a few small changes:

    -Heatran now runs Roar over Earth Power, as suggested by Shurtugal.

    -Jellicent now runs Toxic over Will-O-Wisp, as suggested by Trinitrotoluene.

    These were pretty minor and simple changes that I think really helped the team. Roar is great for letting Heatran shut down Volcarona, as well as other similar set up sweepers. Earth Power wasn't too necessary, and Roar handles most of the dangerous stuff Earth Power could've hit anyway. Toxic over Jellicent, again, helps the team handle Volcarona better and makes Jellicent much more effective in taking down bulkier threats. Will-O-Wisp really wasn't killing those Bulky Waters fast enough.

    So about the other suggestions...

    -Choice Scarf Terrakion/Garchomp: These two were very similar suggestions, so I'm addressing them together. While being able to outspeed faster/boosted threats is great, I must admit that outside of that role... I never really used them. They were never really integral members of the team, often sat out matches, and just seemed like an empty team slot. On top of that, their job is basically done by Scizor's Bullet Punch. I really preferred Breloom's flexibility and it's amazing crippling abilities to the Revenge killing powers of Terrakion/Garchomp.

    -Nasty Plot Celebi: Ok, I like Celebi, but I just don't think it's the right fit for the team. Compared to Breloom, it doesn't have as much immediate power, lacks a way of protecting itself, and doesn't have that awesome Spore ability. It was powerful once it got a boost, but it was pretty slow to the point that moderately fast threats could out speed it and take it out, and without a Substitute to hide behind it had no way to protect itself from these assaults. The final nail in the coffin is that Celebi is a Special attacker, on a team with only ONE physical attacker. To make matters worse, that attacker is Choiced, meaning that it's hard to rely on for breaking through physically weaker threats. Sorry, but Breloom seems to win this round again.

    -Gastrodon: I'd probably have to agree with LucaroarkZ that this is one of the lesser OU pokemon. It has a niche, for sure, but this team prefers Jellicent over Gastrodon, I think. Gastrodon is basically solely used for the purpose of countering Rain. While it is good at that, it is weak in other areas. Jellicent is much more rounded in general, thanks to it's overall better stats and immunity to fighting, which is one of Jellicent's best qualities. While it struggles against powerful Thunders, it makes up for this by easily absorbing weaker Electric attacks and being a pain in the opponents side constantly. On top of this, it has Taunt, and thanks to it's speed investment it can completely shut down walls and attempts at set up. Overall Jellicent is really just a more solid pokemon and a better fit over the more "specialized" Gastrodon.

    Well, those were the main ones I wanted to address. My sincerest apologies to anyone who's rate I rejected. But thanks for all the ideas and support! Again, if you have any ideas that might improve the team, don't hesitate to rate!
  23. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    139
    I know but remember, I said REVERSAL Dugtrio, not EQ Duggy. Then Volcarona easily tears this apart.

    Ive noticed on ur last 2 RMTS (especially Dark Miracle), u have Volcarona issues.

    Dark Miracle
    -Hydreigon
    -Lucario
    -Celebi
    -Skarmory (once Sturdy was lost)


    More than half of that team was torn apart by Volcarona. Celebi with HP Ice and Leaf Storm tore apart Salamence and Rotom-W. VolcaCelebi breaks the team apart.


    This team

    Scizor
    Jirachi
    Breloom
    Latias

    More than half of this team is wrecked by our bug.

    REVErSAL DUGTrIO (not a dugtrio with just EQ) tears this team apart easily as well, obliterating heatran with reversal. Jellicent? Say hello to Celebi.


    As for a sugesstion, I don't have one but I just wanted you to know that next time you make a team, make sure it isn't Volcarona weak, and don't make it impossible to give a suggestion for a replacement *cough Breloom gags*


    Sorry if that came off as rude.
  24. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
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    ...What bothers me is not so much your comment, and your apparent ignorance to the updates I've made, but the fact that you NECROBUMPED this thread.

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