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Embirch and Flarelm - Part 3 - Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Pre-Evolution Workshop' started by DHR-107, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    In this thread we will discuss viable abilities for Embirch and Flarelm. I would like ideas put forward for both Primary and Secondary abilities for each of the prevolutions. I want some really good suggestions here; I’ve had a think of some I like the idea of too. I’ll let you know if you put forward those ones. The polls will be fairly challenging for this one and I will have a talk with Birkal the next time I see him. I will post in this thread and explain what will happen.

    At this moment in time I will likely put the two abilities against each other and make one of them “guaranteed” to be on both of the prevos. Then decide from that which abilities we can change over. Remember to look for examples from other Pokémon. For example: The Horsea line shares Sniper as a Secondary Ability, but the primary ability changes from Swift Swim to Poison Point and back to Swift Swim. As far as I am aware, no 3 stage Pokémon changes an ability twice (As in, all 3 abilities are different). If you find an example of this (That isn't from a "Cacoon" style Pokémon) please let us all know!

    EDIT: The only other example I can think of is the Slakoth line changing from Truant to Vital Spirit and then going back to Truant.

    Pyroak has the abilities Rock Head and Battle Armor (Armour). Both of these abilities are fairly flavourful in themselves but also work towards Pyroak’s defensive nature. Try to keep that in mind when coming up with ideas for Embirch and Flarelm.

    This discussion will be open for 48 hours. This might change if we get some excellent discussion going.

    Names: Embirch and Flarelm
    Type: Fire/Grass & Fire/Grass
    Abilities: ??? & ???

    Sprites:

    [​IMG] & [​IMG]
  2. Mdevil

    Mdevil

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    I feel it fairly obvious that if one of these abilities have to stay on all three pokes then Rock Head is the definite choice. Battle Armor just won't work on all three, specifically Embirch. (Oh Embirch; stirring up trouble again.) Embirch does not have what I would qualify as armor and therefore I cannot support him having Battle Armor, for flavor's sake. I have no opinion about further abilities but I likely will in the future.
  3. Eagle4

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    I definitely feel that Embirch should lose Battle Armour and Rock Head, with Flarelm keeping it. This is for obvious reasons, no need to explain that decision. Flarelm can keep both Battle Armour and Rock Head.
    As for Embirch's abilities, I could see Quick Feet, Weak Armour, Hustle, and Prankster as becoming viable options.


    EDIT: Looking at uwnim's point, I feel a Weak Armour/Rock Head Embirch is the way forward. Weak armour will add variety, showing the progression from a weak, undeveloped armour plating to a strengthened battle armour.
  4. uwnim

    uwnim

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    Embirch has to have one of the abilities though. There are no 3 stage lines that have both abilities change unless the final stage has only one ability.

    Out of the two, Rock Head fits the entire line the best.
  5. Verminator

    Verminator

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    Perhaps Leaf Guard might be a good ability for Embirch in place of Battle Armor. It's still a defensive ability, although that carries the possibility of it getting an ability that some might see as a downgrade in its next form.
  6. I agree that Rock Head should be kept, but I just don't see Weak Armor. I like the symbolism, but I just think that Embirch has too little armour for it to really make sense. Instead, I suggest we take the armour symbolism in a different direction, with Inner Focus. Until it evolves, Embirch's "force of will" (the Japanese name of Inner Focus according to Bulbapedia) is its armour.

    Or there's Leaf Guard, as suggested by the previous poster. It's the next one I would support after Inner Focus.
  7. Solstice

    Solstice

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    I really like the idea of Leaf Guard, it shows how the whole Pyroak line goes from leaves to more of a bark-based design. As well we should keep Rock Head just because the whole line also has a "stubborn" look to them, I feel like it fits well.
  8. Mdevil

    Mdevil

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    My support falls with Leaf Guard for Embirch. It simply fits the idea of a defensive ability while showing an evolution into the armor worn by it's future forms. Something I think could be interesting is if we gave Flarelm Weak Armor. This could further the idea of the armor strengthening with time, which frankly I like.
  9. RavensNation

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    Hmm... I like:

    Embirch: Chlorophyll / Rock Head. The lack of armor would make it a lot more mobile than it's two evolutions, and Rock Head is obviously the ability they have in common. Also, if there was one, Chlorophyll would make Embirch a nice little Little Cup Poké.

    Flarelm: Battle Armor / Rock Head. And here Flarelm is getting ready to evolve into Pyroak. It loses its Chlorophyll ability because it gains armor that covers the green of photosynthesis that grants it the metabolic boost to move about rapidly.
  10. srk1214

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    Flarelm should definitely keep both. As for Embirch, Battle Armor doesn't really fit the art, while Rock Head still could. So I'll say Embirch should keep Rock Head, and Battle Armor can be replaced by... well, honestly IDK. And there is no precedence in game of either Battle Armor or Rock Head changing by evolution...

    So I'm just gonna go with keep Rock Head / Battle Armor for both.
  11. jas61292

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    I know that in game precedent says that both stages should keep one of the abilities of Pyroak, but I feel that sticking to such a precedent if it doesn't make sense is not a good idea. Data flavor should not trump good flavor, and in the case of Embirch, I feel keeping either ability would really be bad flavor. Embirch does not have any armor, nor does it have the hard casing around its head. As such, neither Rock Head nor Battle Armor make even a bit of sense. That being said, if you really must have in game precedent, Lillipup changes all 3 of its abilities upon evolution. Now sure, it is a gen 5 Pokemon, not gen 4 like Pyroak and company, but it shows that it is not some absurd concept that Game Freak would never do.

    As for what the abilities should be... well that I am less sure of. As far as the things already suggested, I like Leaf Guard, Inner Focus and Chlorophyll. Inner Focus seems like a cool one to transition into Battle Armor, showing a mentality for battle, even if it lacks the equipment for it. Chlorophyll is also cool, as Embirch is one of those prevos I could actually see being faster than its evolution, due to the lack of heavy armor. Leaf Guard seems less original to me, but it still fits perfectly. There are probably some others that would work too, but I don't have enough time to go check right now.

    Oh, but as for Flarelm, I'm with everyone else, no change is needed here.
  12. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

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    In game precedent: Numel and Camerupt each has three abilities, none of which are the same.
  13. Menshay

    Menshay

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    To everybody who suggested Weak Armor: aren't all these CAPs designed for Gen4?

    Rhydon and Shelgon lose Rock Head for Solid Rock and Intimidate upon evolution.

    I feel Flarelm is completely fine with Rock Head/Battle Armor. As for Embirch, Leaf Guard and Inner Focus seem sensible choices, maybe as precursors for Battle Armor and Rock Head respectively. I was thinking about Limber to replace Battle Armor, to represent Embirch's nimbleness decreasing upon evolution. Maybe even Reckless to replace Rock Head symbolizing Embirch's getting more careful upon evolution (though it could be completely useless since Embirch has no guaranteed recoil moves). Possibly even Vital Spirit for Battle Armor for similar reasons.
  14. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    Flarelm can keep either or even both abilities, but Embirch shouldn't have Rock Head OR Battle Armor. The only rocks its getting on its head are from Rocky Helmet, and it has no armor whatsoever. I'm leaning toward Chlorophyll or maybe Inner Focus for Embirch. It's green, so Chloro makes sense, and Inner Focus...I just get a feeling its a focused pokemon.
  15. srk1214

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    I should have clarified. Nothing loses an ability in order to move TO Rock Head or Battle Armor. Shelgon and Rhydon aren't applicable really, since they're moving AWAY from the ability Rock Head.
  16. RavensNation

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    Hey, I know we try to follow in-game precedence or whatever when we decide stuff for our CaPs, but just because we're not Game Freak doesn't mean we can't just decide to follow a different route in Pokémon-making than the one they "set" out for us. I feel that if we adhere too strictly to established patterns we run the risk of severely limiting our options and creativity. Also, when we're so adamant about repeating pre-existing patterns every time we try to "create" something new, isn't that the same as re-inventing the wheel and calling it a hula hoop? Just my opinion.
  17. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Right, after having dodgy internet last night I can finally post. I think I will be doing a set of staggered polls for these two. Most likely I will do Flarelm's abilities first and then we can decide on Embirch.

    I'm extremely torn on how to go about it. I would prefer to have one ability being on all 3 Pokémon, but I can understand the differences in opinion on that matter. I believe Birkal said he wanted to make a post about Rock Head which may sway me a little. As Jas said, Lillipup gives us some fairly flimsy precedence on having both abilities change. I don't overly buy the arguments about Pokémon not gaining Rock Head/Battle Armour. I'm not bothered by that as there are a few abilities which could logically turn into either.

    Of the suggestions so far, I like Limber and Inner Focus more than Leaf Guard. Inner Focus into Battle Armour is pretty nice, and Limber would also fit for similar reasons. Leaf Guard would fit with the more defensive nature of Pyroak overall though. Chlorophyll I'd rather stay away from as that is generally for whole evolution lines (Barring Cherubi into Cherrim).

    You have about another 12 Hours.
  18. Deck Knight

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    Plenty of mons do change abilities routinely.

    Seadra for some inexplicable reason loses Swift Swim for Poison point before reverting back to Swift Swim for Kingdra.

    "Baby" abilities like Pick up and Run Away often get exchanged for stronger abilities, though none of that applies here.

    In any case there's sufficient precedent, and I really like Leaf Guard. One think that might be interesting if we want to change both abilities for Embirch would be Reckless, which would be the opposite kind of shift towards Rock Head rather than previous Pokemon that shifted away from it.
  19. Birkal

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    I don't see how people don't see Rock Head for Embirch. Its head is very smoothly shaped and it looks like the kind of Pokemon with enough determination to bash into stuff. Remember that not every Pokemon with the ability Rock Head has an actual "Rock Head". Bagon, Basculin-B, the Bonsly line don't really have rock heads, but they are still Pokemon that are more "headbutt-y" in nature. I could definitely see Rock Head as a possibility for Embirch and don't think it should be so easily dismissed.
  20. jas61292

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    I personally don't see a "headbutt-y" nature as being any kind of argument for Rock Head. The ability is not about liking to use recoil moves, it is about being able to do so without recoil. Take a look at all the Pokemon that get rock head. The vast majority are rock types who literally have a head made of rock. However, among those that don't, are guys like Bagon who has hard bony ridges along the top of its head which are "as hard as tempered steel" according to Ruby version. And then there is Cubone and Marowak, who have helmets of bone covering their heads. I don't think anyone would argue that those two love headbutting things, as their main weapon is their bone that they throw. But, because of their actually hard, protected head, they have that ability.

    On the other hand, Pokemon like Scraggy who "immediately headbutts anyone that makes eye contact with it" doesn't have Rock Head. While its skull is stated to be quite hard, unlike Pokemon that actually do have Rock Head, Scraggy lack any sort of protective casing around it.

    While I admit that Embirch might love to use these moves just as much as anyone else, that really has no bearing on whether it should have Rock Head or not. If anything, that would be a good reason to give it an ability like Reckless. If we do want to go down the road of making it love to headbutt things or to use its recoil moves, I think Reckless would be the ability of choice over Rock Head.
  21. Birkal

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    You still fail to bring up Basculin-B in your argument, which doesn't have a rock-like head structure at all.

    [​IMG]

    And it fits the exact description of Scraggy in that it simply loves to headbutt things. I could see the same idea projected on to Embirch. I'm not saying that other abilities shouldn't be allowed, but I'm saying that if we intend to keep one ability, it should definitely be Rock Head over Battle Armor. It is an ability that makes sense for the Pyroak line. They have thick skulls and are likely to heatbutt things due to their volatile nature; it doesn't get much more simplistic than that.
  22. Eagle4

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    Birkal, Basculin-B looks aggressive, and a natural head-butter. Embirch, on the other hand, looks less aggressive, and I fail to see how it looks anything like a natural head-butter. To be honest, although unorthodox, the logical answer would be to give Embirch two different moves. Inner Focus and Reckless being my two choices so far.
  23. jas61292

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    It is true that Basculin-B does have rock head, without such a solid structure around its head, but that is more of an exception than the rule. And even then, the Basculin you found in the wild in BW never had such an ability. It was only a unique Bascilin you get in a trade. But moving past that, even you, with what you said about Scraggy are pretty much admitting it does not need Rock Head for the reasons you brought up.

    Let me compare Scraggy with cubone once more. Scraggy loves to headbutt things. Cubone doesn't. Scraggy is specifically stated to have a hard internal skull, Cubone doesn't. On the other hand, Cubone has a hard outer shell around its head and Scraggy does not. And it is Cubone that has Rock Head, not Scraggy. Scraggy doesn't even have any ability that has to do with recoil moves; it has Shed Skin, Moxie, and Intimidate.

    It just seems to me like you are using a tendency to use recoil moves as a reason for Rock Head, when to me the two have little to do with each other. It is about the natural ability to not be hurt when using them, not your tendency to do so.

    Now, I will say that if we are forced to keep one ability, Rock Head is definitely the one to keep. But I just don't think we should be force to keep it when precedent points heavily against it.
  24. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    As this Embirch discussion is still ongoing (and it's great), I will be putting up the Flarelm Ability Poll now and then deciding after that what we are going to do about Embirch.

    If needs be I can make another discussion thread just for Embirch, but I think here is fine to carry on with Embirch discussion. Just my two cents, I am starting to lean more towards opening up the polls for both abilities, and putting down each of Pyroak's abilities into those polls. I like Reckless turning into Rock Head as it sort of shows a mastery of those recoil moves.

    I am leaving this thread open for Embirch Ability Discussion. You have another 24 Hours here to discuss!
  25. TheMagicalCake

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    I'm going with Leaf Guard and Reckless for Embirch. Because it has no armor it can't have Battle Armor so Leaf Guard is still a defensive ability that works with the design. As for Reckless, he has no head protection so it makes sense that doing recoil moves would be dangerous.
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