Empoleon is Underrated [OU RMT]

[gbchaosmaster]

Empoleon is Underrated

Agility SubPetaya Empoleon got me a lot of unexpected wins in Shoddy, so I'm just experimenting with the idea of basing a
team around Empoleon. This isn't the first team I've made, but it's my first RMT, so here goes.

At a Glance

Building Process

Yanmega, Roserade, Lucario, Flygon, Empoleon, Breloom

This thing has muscled through so many teams on Shoddy. It's counterable while it's setting up, but once it gets going, it's very hard to stop. So, I decided to make a team based on weakening the opponent and helping Empoleon set up for a successful late-game sweep.

One of Empoleon's weak spots is the Agility that you have to use, lest you be outsped and KO'd. My Empoleon is defeated at the full health Agility more often than during the low-HP sweep. So, I decided to include Ninjask, another Pokemon that isn't used much because it is decimated by Stealth Rock. However, all Empoleon needs is a couple Speed Boosts, and even at 50%, a Pure Speed Passer Ninjask is capable of doing that.

But, since the more speed, the better, we should have a Rapid Spinner.

Not only is Cruel my Spinner, it also sets up the Toxic Spikes that Empoleon oh so loves, and gets rid of the odd Vaporeon that Empoleon oh so hates. The fact that Tentacruel is my second Water-type makes the team a bit unbalanced, but I think the role that this Pokemon plays is crucial to the team's success.

Having just one sweeper wan't good enough for me, and I wanted to get a few KO's in before revealing Empoleon, so I chose the very unpredictable Lucario. Lucario also has access to ExtremeSpeed, and priority moves are very important to me. An ExtremeSpeed Lucario will get me a revenge kill without penalty, which I like.

This team really needs a Lead...

A Choice Specs/Tinted Lens Yanmega decimates teams that aren't ready to handle it, and most teams aren't. This will destroy any team that isn't led by Infernape, and if I do see the Ape, Tentacruel takes care of it, packing Surf and resisting both of Infernape's STABs.

Yanmega has shown me a lot of KO's on Shoddy, and will severely weaken teams right from the get-go, and that's just what I want.

But what if Empoleon does get KO'd? Breloom is my insurance, so to speak. It's annoying as hell to face, and will likely KO what Empoleon doesn't get to. With dual STABs and a 100% sleep move, almost any team benefits from Breloom.

The latest update has brought us Roserade over Tentacruel, and Flygon over Ninjask. I accepted these changes because:
-Electric-types would tear this team apart, and I had to put Flygon somewhere. With the unreliability of Ninjask outside of the Lead position, I gave him up.
-Roserade over Tentacruel gave me better synergy with access to Paralysis while maintaining Toxic Spikes and a Special Wall. The only downside is the loss of Rapid Spin, meaning that bringing Yanmega back into play is tough if I decide to switch him out.
There was also a change in Lucario's moveset- more on that later.

Type Chart

Type Weaknesses and Resistances of Each Member on the Team

^ Original Team: Yanmega, Tentacruel, Lucario, Ninjask, Empoleon, Breloom ^

^ Latest Update: Yanmega, Roserade, Lucario, Flygon, Empoleon, Breloom ^

In-depth Analysis

The Lead

Yanmega (M) @ Choice Specs (Bug/Flying)
Ability: Tinted Lens (Class 2) - Not very effective hits from this Pokemon do double the damage
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 6 Def
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD
Nature: Modest (110% SpA, 90% Atk)
-Bug Buzz
-Air Slash
-Hidden Power [Ground]
-U-turn

Yanmega will kill you. And your mother.
Bug Buzz alone is usually enough to take down two or so Pokemon, but Yanmega does suffer from a quad Rock weakness and weakness to Fire, two types that a lot of leads carry. Lead list has now been added below.

Yanmega vs. Common Leads

Azelf is easy enough. U-turn to Lucario (hoping it doesn't Fire Blast), and Lucario can ExtremeSpeed.

Aerodactyl will almost always Rock Slide Yanmega, so U-turning isn't an option. Instead I have to switch to Scarfgon, and Stone Edge will 2HKO.

All of my attacks, bar U-turn, will 2HKO Metagross, but it can KO me if it runs Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch or, obviously, if it Explodes. Even then, Flygon can come in and KO Metagross before it can lay down Rocks.

MixPert's only guarenteed 2HKO against Yanmega is Ice Beam, and that's if it survives my faster Bug Buzz 2HKO. Which it can't. Unless it decides to be a (BAN ME PLEASE) and score a critical.

Bug Buzz is a 3HKO if it tricks a Scarf onto me, so HP Ground is the best choice here, doing 43.2% to 51% with a Scarf, having at least a small chance at 2HKOing. If Jirachi uses Iron Head... crap. If I'm predicting a Trick, I could always switch to Flygon though. =P

Flygon takes care of LeadApe.

Bug Buzz is a 2HKO, so long as Sleep Powder misses.

Heatran is such a bastard... U-turn to Flygon to scare it off.

Bug Buzz does 89.6% - 105.9% to Tyranitar.

Gliscor is a 2HKO with Bug Buzz, or I could use Air Slash for a 2HKO with a chance of flinching.

Which Yanmega can out-Air Slash the other?

Air Slash demolishes Machamp, just barely being a guaranteed OHKO.

Bug Buzz OHKO's Froslass, but Froslass is faster. It gets down 2 layers of Spikes with the Sash taken into account.

Um, please. Bug Buzz will take down three of these things at once. I don't feel like calculating it, but I'm pretty sure even U-turn will kill this thing... O_o

Again... Bug Buzz will Crick(et) Roll this thing. ...I know, that sucked.
​

The Toxic Spiker

Roserade (M) @ Black Sludge (Grass/Poison)
Ability: Natural Cure (Class 1) - Cures status on switching out
EVs: 252 HP / 138 SpD / 120 Spe
Nature: Calm (110% SpD, 90% Atk)
-Toxic Spikes
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power [Fire]
-Stun Spore

Tentacruel has become Roserade! It keeps the Black Sludge to stop Tricking (not that that's too much of a threat anyway), and still gets up Toxic Spikes as well as spreading Paralysis with Stun Spore. Unfortunately, Roserade can't Rapid Spin, so Ninjask had to go.

==THREATS==

Zapdos was a threat to Tentacruel and the rest of the team, but with the addition of Flygon to the team, Zapdos and other dangerous Electrics are more or less covered.

The Physical/Priority Attacker

Lucario (M) @ Choice Band (Fighting/Steel)
Ability: Inner Focus (Class 2) - This Pokemon cannot flinch, unless hit during Focus Punch
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 SpD
Nature: Adamant (110% Atk, 90% SpA)
-Close Combat
-ExtremeSpeed
-Crunch
-Earthquake

This Lucario hits hard. A Choice Band ExtremeSpeed is even more deadly than ExtremeSpeed on the Swords Dance set, and Ghost-type switch-ins succumb to Crunch. Close Combat will also rape a lot of Pokemon, and Ghosts, once again, have to fear Crunch. This Lucario revenge kills well and weakens the opposing team quite effectively.

==THREATS==

Roserade now covers the old Feebas threat.

The steel trappers, primarily Magnezone along with the rare but faster Magneton, are a threat to Lucario and Empoleon. Because of this, I have run EQ over Stone Edge, but I'm screwed if I'm locked into ES or Crunch and they switch in. If Lucario dies this way, Flygon will be my response.

The Revenge Killer/Electric Coverage

Flygon (M) @ Choice Scarf (Ground/Dragon)
Ability: Levitate - This Pokemon is immune to Ground-type moves, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 SpD
Nature: JOLLY OR ADAMANT???
-Earthquake
-Outrage
-U-turn
-Stone Edge

Should I go Jolly or Adamant? I think the Flygon will help the team a lot though, and take care of a lot of Electric threats including Magnezone (OHKO'd by EQ unless it uses Reflect) and Zapdos (Physically Defensive set 3HKO'd by Stone Edge, all other sets 2HKO'd). Zapdos can't even scratch Flygon, with a quad resist to Heat Wave and HP Grass only doing 24.2-28.8%. HP Ice only OHKO's Flygon half the time.

Star of the Team

Empoleon (M) @ Petaya Berry (Water/Steel)
Ability: Torrent - When HP is under 1/3, Water's power increases by 50%
EVs: 252 SpA / 232 Spe / 26 Def
IVs: 30 HP
Nature: Modest (110% SpA, 90% Atk)
-Agility
-Substitute
-Surf
-Ice Beam

The 30 HP is to make it's HP divisible by 4 for more powerful substitutes, but not by 16 or 8. You know the drill with this one. Agility on the first turn out, Substitute until Petaya Berry activates (as well as Torrent), and then Surf to kill just about anything.

Saving Me 15% or More on Penguin Insurance

Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb (Grass/Fighting)
Ability: Poison Heal (Class 2) - Heals 1/8 of HP each turn while Poisoned
EVs: 252 Atk / 246 Spe / 12 HP
Nature: Adamant (110% Atk, 90% SpA)
-Spore
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Seed Bomb

If Empoleon dies, he's covered. Breloom is always an absolute ass to battle, and everyone hates seeing his face. It adds a Grass-type to the team as well, and has a nice STAB Focus Punch, not to mention Spore. Unless the opponent switches in Feebas, this psychotropic mushroom is ready for anything.

Just hope they don't use Peck.

Conclusion
This is really an experiment, but I'm hoping that with your help, this team might actually be successful. It sure has a few weak points, but I plan to change moves and Pokemon to stop threats and give it a little more synergy. I'm starting to see improvements already, so keep on firing! So guys, I ask you: what can I do to make this team better?
​

 

[Eggbert]

Since empoleon already has agility, and ninjask isn't too reliable (stealth rocks, priority, phazing) I would replace him. Also, you lack stealth rocks, which empoleon would like to hit flying pokes. Zapdos does in fact, (along with many other electrics) hurt badly.

-Replace Ninjask
-Need SR
-Deal with electrics

Add in a scarfgon. It can scout, take ground attacks, revenge kill, and hurt stuff with outrage. A good lead would be roserade, who can set up toxic spikes, and contribute to offense a bit with leaf storm. Lastly, I would switch yanmega for rotom, who can spinblock, and lure in pursuit for luke and the penguin to set up on.

-Lead Roserade
-Scarfgon
-Rotom (sub-charge is great for taking advantage of t-spikes)

Edit: forgot about stealth rock. A celebi can help here. It can get rocks up, lure in ttar again, spread t-wave, as your team is a bit slow, and even lure in and KO flygon with leaf storm which can stop a +2 empoleon.

 

[gbchaosmaster]

Since empoleon already has agility, and ninjask isn't too reliable (stealth rocks, priority, phazing) I would replace him. Also, you lack stealth rocks, which empoleon would like to hit flying pokes. Zapdos does in fact, (along with many other electrics) hurt badly.

-Replace Ninjask
-Need SR
-Deal with electrics

Well, I explained above that I'm considering a Petaya Ninjask that will get up +3 Speed and +1 Special Attack with Stealth Rock, or up to max Speed and +1 SpA, and scrapping Agility completely on Empoleon for Grass Knot.

Add in a scarfgon. It can scout, take ground (and electric) attacks, revenge kill, and hurt stuff with outrage.

I agree fully that Flygon would be an excellent addition to this team, but I'm thinking of taking out Breloom for Scarfgon. While Breloom is an amazing Pokemon, the Dragon would give the team a much better type balance.

A good lead would be roserade, who can set up toxic spikes, and contribute to offense a bit with leaf storm.

I like that idea. While Yanmega destroys teams, a more tactical lead like Roserade might do better.

Lastly, I would switch yanmega for rotom, who can spinblock, and lure in pursuit for luke and the penguin to set up on.

Not a bad idea. Roserade-Rotom over YanmegaCruel.

-Lead Roserade
-Scarfgon
-Rotom (sub-charge is great for taking advantage of t-spikes)

Since I plan to possibly use this team on Wi-Fi, a normal forme of Rotom is good. I'll go with SubCharge.

Edit: forgot about stealth rock. A celebi can help here. It can get rocks up, lure in ttar again, spread t-wave, as your team is a bit slow, and even lure in and KO flygon with leaf storm which can stop a +2 empoleon.

Well, I don't have an extra Celebi, but if I ever decide to use this team on Shoddy, that may be an option.

Does anyone else have ideas before I make any changes?

 

[Muffinmanifestation]

Well, I like your Yanmega lead. In my opinion, keep that. For your team, which isn't stalling, really, Toxic Spikes aren't necessary while Rapid Spinning is, seeing as (Currently, at least) one third of your team loses 50% of its health every time they switch in. You could run a Stealth Rock Forretress, but that would add to the insane Fire weakness you already have, or Donphan, but adds another Ice weakness. I don't want to tamper with the team too much, but I think Eggbert is right. Get rid of Ninjask and replace it with a dedicated Stealth Rock supporter who resist Fire. Or you can go with Heatran who is immune to it and can still fight. It's up to you.

 

[HouseFantastic]

I like the inclusion of Yanmega, but it would definitely be risky to run both yanmega and ninjask at the same time. I need not point out what has already been said, but..

I notice you don't mention magnezone in your in-depth threat list for Lucario. While magnezone will probably not OHKO you, it can trap you, if your lucario is weakened a fair bit , scoring a kill. Close combat would put a dent in it for sure, if you happen to be choiced into it, but once an opponent figures out you're a choice user, they could probably lure you and get you stuck while they switch, I think. The other three moves won't be able to do 30% damage to a 'Steel Killer' variant Magnezone. Perhaps you could consider Earthquake instead of Stone edge? You would effectively lose Bug and Flying coverage(though Empoleon packs ice beam and Yanmega is, well, amazing), but gain Electric (Unless you really, really want to switch Yanmega in on an electric pokemon), and Poison coverage, a type that could potentially pose a threat to your Breloom, should it pop up.

Magnezone also can do a hefty bit of damage to Empoleon for the obvious reasons, steel typing gets trapped by the magnets, water typing gets hurt in the face. Substitute can save you, and hopefully the RNG won't screw you out of a kill on magnezone from a torrent-petaya boosted Surf. I understand that if someone throws a magnezone out on your ninjask, you have breloom to rely on, but you can see how a well-timed switch might be problematic, or maybe a well-predicted hidden power fire, or, heaven forbid, a choice scarfed variant.

If you want to run some clever calculations to prove me wrong, please go ahead, but I've done as many relevant ones as I could think of.

 

[Daniel Craig]

The Toxic Spiker

Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge (Water/Poison)
Ability: Liquid Ooze (Class 2) - Leeching moves make the opponent lose the HP they would've gained
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 138 SpD
Nature: Calm (110% SpD, 90% Atk)
-Toxic Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Sludge Bomb
-Surf

this is really weird that i should find this cus im just in the process of writing my own Empoleon based RMT so ye.. O.o

I would recomend changing tentacruel to roserade as empoleon shares to many of the same weakness' and its kinda bad for your synergy.
If it really bothers you losing such a potent special wall, why not try using the specially defensive spikes roserade set but switch out spikes for toxic spikes, or you could just go with the full out lead or attacking sets.

Good luck with your team

(i empoleon ;] )

 

[gbchaosmaster]

I notice you don't mention magnezone in your in-depth threat list for Lucario. While magnezone will probably not OHKO you, it can trap you, if your lucario is weakened a fair bit , scoring a kill. Close combat would put a dent in it for sure, if you happen to be choiced into it, but once an opponent figures out you're a choice user, they could probably lure you and get you stuck while they switch, I think. The other three moves won't be able to do 30% damage to a 'Steel Killer' variant Magnezone. Perhaps you could consider Earthquake instead of Stone edge? You would effectively lose Bug and Flying coverage(though Empoleon packs ice beam and Yanmega is, well, amazing), but gain Electric (Unless you really, really want to switch Yanmega in on an electric pokemon), and Poison coverage, a type that could potentially pose a threat to your Breloom, should it pop up.

Magnezone also can do a hefty bit of damage to Empoleon for the obvious reasons, steel typing gets trapped by the magnets, water typing gets hurt in the face. Substitute can save you, and hopefully the RNG won't screw you out of a kill on magnezone from a torrent-petaya boosted Surf. I understand that if someone throws a magnezone out on your ninjask, you have breloom to rely on, but you can see how a well-timed switch might be problematic, or maybe a well-predicted hidden power fire, or, heaven forbid, a choice scarfed variant.

You're quite right. I've run EQ on Lucario to help with Magnezone, and Flygon can revenge kill it as well.

I would recomend changing tentacruel to roserade as empoleon shares to many of the same weakness' and its kinda bad for your synergy.
If it really bothers you losing such a potent special wall, why not try using the specially defensive spikes roserade set but switch out spikes for toxic spikes, or you could just go with the full out lead or attacking sets.

Good idea.

 

[gbchaosmaster]

Infernape

I was doing some testing on Shoddy today and I've found it very hard to deal with Ape leads. Even a switch to Flygon puts severe dents in the dragon's health and reveals Flygon a bit earlier than I would like. Any ideas how to help this?

 

[DarkSlay]

Hey there! I have no time for a full rate unfortunately, but I do happen to be the bringer of bad news. Roserade cannot learn TSpikes and Stun Spore on the same set legally. It can only do TSpikes + Sleep Powder, or Spikes + Stun Spore. Sorry!

Hope this helped, and good luck!

 

[gbchaosmaster]

Hey there! I have no time for a full rate unfortunately, but I do happen to be the bringer of bad news. Roserade cannot learn TSpikes and Stun Spore on the same set legally. It can only do TSpikes + Sleep Powder, or Spikes + Stun Spore. Sorry!

Hope this helped, and good luck!

Shoddy allowed it, Roselia gets learns both via level up (Stun Spore @ Lv.10, Toxic Spikes @ Lv.28).

 

[gbchaosmaster]

24-hour bump.

 

[NightShadow]

the only yanemega lead there is is focus sash speed boost protect. protect on first turn, getting free speed boost and blocking fake out, and then proceed to do a LOT of damage.

your team is MASSIVELY weak to fire and ice. fix that.

 

[-Lux-]

pretty solid team apart from its 2 weaknesses: ice / fire.

To get rid of these weaknesses i'd suggest replacing Lucario with scarf heatran for flashfire / ice resistant / earth power witch get rid of all your weaknesses.

Heatran @ choice scarf

naive / rash

Evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Moves:
~Fire Blast / Flamethrower
~Earth Power
~Explosion
~Dragon Pulse / Hp Grass / Hp Electric

Hope this helped. Gl

 

[Darkamber8828]

I was doing some testing on Shoddy today and I've found it very hard to deal with Ape leads. Even a switch to Flygon puts severe dents in the dragon's health and reveals Flygon a bit earlier than I would like. Any ideas how to help this?

Simple. Run a Suicide Lead Roserade with Protect. Then, make your vacated slot a Swampert, who sets up Stealth Rock and resists Fire. It can also take a +1 Salamence Outrage, which is nice.