Entry Hazards - Are They Broken?

[Agent Gibbs]

Ah, I had addressed this issue on the previous page, so I glossed over it here for the sake of brevity. Here's the explanation I gave:

I'm not leaving out the facts that don't favor my argument. Yes, ghost-types are vulnerable to trapping as well as spinners. However, jellicent beats ttar and scizor easily 1-on-1, and gengar OHKOs ttar and scizor with the appropriate moves. But even mroe basically than that, who cares?! The point of the spinblocker is to come on in the RS, die or w/e, and then let the spinner get trapped by the next mon. I will gladly sac my spinblocker to kill your spinner--it's done its job! Sure, you can double-switch and try to predict (yay switching--the most essential, strategic part of the game), but you're taking hazards damage on both trapper and spinner, the ghosts can beat many common pursuiters as just mentioned, and it's nowhere near guaranteed--SR is so so easy to set up that I don't even have to bother blocking it the first time, I can just go to something that threatens your starmie out while scouting for a trapper switch. And i can afford to do this strategic switching, because you don't have hazards up! Spikes does not even come near this because so many mons are immune to it, it takes much longer to set up, and its users have so much fewer opportunities to do so because they are in general worse mons, since the distribution is so different! Lastly, I'm not assuming every team runs a trapper or a spinblocker--all I'm saying is that, if I want to keep SR up on your side of the field and you want to keep it off, it is so so much easier for me to guarantee this will happen than for you to.

I hate to nitpick through this, but there are a few problems with this as well. First of all, the point of a spinblocker isn't just to block Rapid Spin, die, and let the next Pokemon trap the spinner. Spinblockers are used for other reasons besides just spinblocking. Jellicent in particular is used for its typing and bulk, so you'd better be sure you're not going to need to check Keldeo, Scizor, etc. before you go around sacking it just to trap spinners. Gengar is less useful defensively, but it can still be used as a check to various Pokemon due to its immunities and it is still a great offensive threat, so there is a cost to just sacking it. And all to trap a spinner?

This argument about spinners and trappers is getting blown way out of proportion. It just seems that every time a solution to something is brought up, you introduce some other factor to the situation, regardless of how common it actually is. Someone mentions Rapid Spin, you mention spinblockers. Someone mentions spinners that can get past spinblockers, now there are trappers! If you're carrying a spinblocker and trapper just to sack the spinblocker and kill the spinner, then it seems to me that you're going a little out of your way just to stop Rapid Spin, so no wonder you think spinning isn't reliable.

On a side note, Jellicent doesn't easily beat Tyranitar like you claim. CB Tyranitar outspeeds and OHKOs common variants with Crunch. SpD Jellicent can be OHKOd by any Tyranitar with maximum offensive investment even without Stealth Rock at least part of the time. Max Atk Tyranitar with Leftovers also beats Def Jellicent 1-on-1 a majority of the time, even if it goes for Will-O-Wisp after the first Crunch. Gengar actually fails to OHKO CB Tyranitar more than half the time without a boosting item, SpD Tyranitar takes Focus Blast decently enought and OHKOs, and Gengar has the same problems with ScarfTar that Starmie does. There's also Chople Berry, which isn't much less common than Choice Scarf on Tyranitar. Gengar also doesn't even 2HKO CB Scizor over half the time with Focus Blast without a boosting item. HP Fire OHKOs, but that's only to be expected seeing as how HP Fire is usually used for the purpose of luring in and killing Scizor (let's just hope Rain isn't up).

So it would appear that both Ghost Pokemon are capable of beating Scizor (although Gengar needs HP Fire to do it), but both also have a lot of trouble with Tyranitar. Just one last nitpick there.

Tl;dr: I'm not claiming every team has a ghost and/or trapper--I'm just saying that, if they choose to do so, getting off a successful RS is very very hard to guarantee because of the following:

"If" is the key word here. How often does this Ghost + trapper combination occur exactly? We've already deduced that the two most common spin blockers in the tier don't even hit 18% usage put together, so how much less common is this combo you're talking about? Looking at the usage stats, neither of the spinblockers show up on Scizor, Dugtrio, or Tyranitar's list of common teammates. Neither Tyranitar, Scizor, nor Dugtrio show up on Gengar's list, and only Tyranitar shows up on Jellicent's (and even then that's less because of that spinblocker + trapper relationship and more because Jellicent makes a great Rain check for Sand teams).

Basically everything but LOstarmie with the right one of thunder and psyshock

Ah, I see what you did there. I said Thunderbolt, not Thunder. Thunder is a lot harder to use since it requires Rain (although it's not untrue that Thunder does let LO Starmie beat even SpD Jellicent). Thunderbolt is more than enough to 2HKO Def Jellicent. In fact, Thunderbolt with Analytic (which is great on the LO set since it works on switch-ins) 2HKOs SpD Jellicent most of the time even with no prior damage if it catches it on the switch, so you technically don't even need Psyshock.

So yeah, quick nitpick there too.

Because even if you do beat them, you lose your spinner if they have a trapper, meaning you don't get the spin off.

Three questions here.

One, how effective are these trappers at killing their targets? CB Scizor and non-Scarf Tyranitar have to take hits from Starmie before they can actually kill it, so you need to make sure they have enough health to actually take a hit. The Life Orb sets are particularly troublesome since both CB Scizor and CB Tyranitar need to be at full health to guarantee survival of Starmie's Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock (and Tyranitar isn't even guaranteed since it OHKOs 6.25% of the time), so you have to be very careful there just to actually beat Starmie. Scarf Tyranitar does just fine, but it's also not the most common variant by a long shot, and let's not forget that Pursuit trapping is dependent upon predicting whether the opponent switches out or not. Focus Sash Dugtrio can't quite hit 75% damage maximum against bulky Tentacruel, and it just does hit 80% against SubToxic variants. Meanwhile, Scald OHKOs in Rain, so that Sash had better be intact and Tentacruel had better be at low enough health. Heck, if it's the bulky variant carrying Protect in Rain, then it actually needs to be at ~50% or less in order to guarantee the OHKO from Sash Dugtrio's Earthquake factoring in Protect spam for Rain Dish + Leftovers recovery.

Two, what if you have the wrong trapper? Dugtrio doesn't do so well against Starmie, and Tyranitar doesn't exactly trap Tentacruel that well, nor does Scizor.

Three, do these trappers actually prevent the Rapid Spin? I believe a huge portion of your argument is begging this very question. Starmie outspeeds all non-Scarfed versions of Tyranitar and Scizor, so even if the Starmie user decides not to try and KO your trapper, they can still get the spin off. In that case, you just sacked your spinblocker for nothing, and all you managed to do was kill a Starmie. As I mentioned earlier, Dugtrio also has problems with a healthy Tentacruel, who can actually take a hit and still spin as well. So even with a trapper, you're not guaranteed to actually stop the Rapid Spin at all.



The point of all this isn't to argue that Stealth Rock is just fine as is. Heck, I really wouldn't mind banning it (I've been feeling very apathetic about this sort of stuff lately). But let's not try to act like spinning is extremely hard. You can't just mindlessly bring in your spinner and get rid of hazards any time you want, sure, but it's not that hard to bring Starmie or something in on a Pokemon that you can beat or force out and attempt a spin. You won't even have to worry about spinblockers the vast majority of the time, and even if your opponent happens to have a spinblocker and the exact trapper that they need to beat your spinner, they're still not guaranteed to stop your Rapid Spin. So overall, Rapid Spin looks pretty good right now.

One thing I do want to see discussed is the possibly detrimental effect that banning Stealth Rock would have, not on Pokemon like Volcarona and Dragonite, but on VoltTurn. I'm sure most players who were around during BW1 remember just how popular (and somewhat annoying) VoltTurn started getting in the last few months of BW1. VoltTurn essentially falls under that category Aldaron mentioned of moves that inhibit the skill involved in switching, in this case by making switching too easy. Since these sorts of teams were based around switching around and maintaining momentum while wearing the opponent down, they often needed a way to keep Stealth Rock off the field so as to switch around more effectively. Is anyone else concerned that banning Stealth Rock would encourage the use of careless switching such as that involved in VoltTurn? That's honestly my biggest concern when it comes to banning Stealth Rock.

 

[George Eliot]

Spinblocking / trapping does handle Rapid Spinning pretty effectively but let's not pretend it's the main reason Spinning is hard. Spinning is hard because, in such an offensive metagame, with SR up and the opponent specifically trying to catch your spinner out and not give it free turns, you have to get in safely - all to negate one move which can simply be used again, usually more easily. And it gets even harder when you consider that spinners often lose to the common users of Stealth Rock. Starmie / Tenta lose flat out to Ferrothorn (Reflect Type Starmie doesn't actually, but once the opponent catches on that just turns into a prediction war of whether they'll switch and force you out before you can spin); and to most Tyranitar. Forretress is set up fodder for everything and afraid of virtually every offensive pokemon in the metagame which isn't Choiced. Donphan is just terrible. Simply put, although spinning is certainly possible if the opponent doesn't take massive precautions to stop you, against any offensive team the cost of spinning is far far more than the cost of taking that one turn to put Stealth Rock up. Spinblocking and/or trapping isn't the main reason spinning isn't an effective check to Stealth Rock, it's just another minor factor.

As for VoltTurn, the main reason that works is because they have Stealth Rock. Even if both sides have SR, that favours them because you'll die faster. Removing SR from the equation makes defensive methods of handling it much more viable.

 

[Kidogo]

The idea that spinblockers can be used for spinblocking is nothing but a point in our favor--the issue is that, by sacrificing a slot for a ghost type, you can virtually guarantee SR staying up (and I'll explain again why I think it is virtually guaranteed). If the ghost type can additionally perform tasks within the team, all the better! You can't rely on them as the sole check, obviously (an issue you should already have in mind when using a pursuit-weak pokemon). But notice that the opponent is losing their rapid spinner as well, so it's the same loss in terms of team synergy--and the point is that any team synergy that ghosts can provide is simply a bonus, just don't rely on it in teambuilding. Just like how you wouldn't rely on terrakion being around all game if it's a suicide lead, even though it can perform other jobs.

I'm not bringing up new points, and I'm not implying that every team does or should carry these measures (over-preparation). All I'm saying is that, SR, like every other strategy, requires team support. If you truly want to support SR (and since you don't need to stack it or anything, this basically jsut means getting it up and keeping it there), it's not unreasonable to have some methods of doing so. Of course, if you don't want SR up, you can carry counter-measures...except that when a team with the proper support to keep SR on the opp's field and a team with the best available means of ridding SR from their own field face each other, SR will almost always remain up. No, not everyone carries a spinblocker and a trapper or even one of the two. The point is just that SR as a strategy, when it is given proper (not outrageous--specifying the type of one mon and asking for a pursuiter or other trapper is not extreme in the least) support, is very very hard to "counter". The key word is that a team that wants SR up can almost unfailingly do so.

Other comments that feed into the above: I assumed the jelli spread was EVed to beat bandtar. This is standard and should be done regardless of what jelli's role in the team is, as being faster or slower than it, as you cemonstrated, makes the difference between survival and death. Outspeed, WoW, see if pursuit or crunch and what set it is based on damage. If band crunch, switch out; if anything else, you take < 50%, so just stay in and recover off damage when necessary. Gengar has roughly a 50/50 shot to beat bandtar, assuming fblast hits; fine, but that's a hell lot better than starmie has. LOgar is also a very prominent set among higher-level players, with pain split and dbond both abusing the LO damage. Jelli dominates zor for obvious reason, while just the threat of HP fire is often enough to discourage zor from trying to trap gar. Nevertheless, it doesn't actually matter that much, as I've said, if they beat the pursuiters (and I hope you will agree that at the very least they have on average a much better shot at it than the spinners do of beating their trappers?).

Yeah thunder, thunderbolt, not a huge distinction being made (especilly since this isn't an integral part of the argument). Analytic really only has come up since it was posted in the creative movesets thread but that is definitely a cool option.

First of all, an interesting point in regards to effectiveness of the trappers: I think it is safe to assume they are near full health. Why? I'm guessing that this is occurring near the begin of the game to minimize SR damage--if this is not the case, part of the point of spinning is being defeated. Nevertheless, I think it is fair to say that the trappers beat the spinners reliably. It seems extremely hypocritical to assume SR in your calculations, not because that goes against your argument, but because you're trying to prove how easy to get rid of it it is. In this case, starmie has 0 chance (barring crits) of beating ttar and scizor at good health. Meanwhile, there is not even a necesity for prediction in my mind--by definition, starmie is LO and has already taken, at the very least, 1 SR switch-in and 2 rounds of LO. This puts it at 68%, 58% after another turn of LO...at which point both pursuits easily KO regardless of switch or not (in fact, both basically OHKO anyway).

I see having the wrong trapper as being subsumed under having adequate team support--for example, if you're using jelli as your spinblocker, use duggy as the trapper, since you're much more likely to have tenta get past you than mie (and if mie does, it's got to be LO, at which point duggy easily finishes it off with eq). If you're using gar, pack a scarftar).

So I see this as being a valid point. Yes, they can get a suicidal rapid spin off, assuming no scarftar/zor or duggy (and remember, tenta has to get past jelli first--assuming you outspeed, sub on the switch, and toxic on the taunt, you're probably not getting out of this without a burn. Doesn't mean you don't beat jelli--you do--but due to taunt you will not be able to avoid getting a burn, which means it can absolutely weaken you a bit before going down. So I'd actually say duggy traps very reliably.
But even ignoring that, let's assume you get a suicidal RS off. You had the exact right set to beat their spinblocker, and they had the wrong trapper set to prevent you from getting a spin off. You've lost your spinner, they've lost their spinblocker. Your side of the field is clear. So what happens next? Now they send in their SRer, and set up rocks again. This they can do because setting up SR is so so much easier than removing it. In fact, while SR suicide leads are convenient for getting rocks up quickly, the ridiculous distribution of the move means stuff like jirachi and blissey get it. These mons are able to set it up reliably, heal themselves, and have plenty of switch-in opportunities--and because there is no counter-measure to setting up SR like spinblocking for getting rid of it, they don't have to run specific, suicidal sets to do so. So in my mind, the end result? Both sides lose a mon, and SR is temporarily removed only to come right back onto the field.

The volturn idea is actually a really intersting one. One thing to remember though is that both sides typically abuse SR in that case, so I really don't know how much of a change in dynamic this would be. Honestly, I feel like the introduction of threats such as landy-t and thundy-t, which both "counter" volturn by checking both mons' switching moves, and stuff like regenerater amoongbro cores help mitigate this a bit. Honestly, I think SR hurts as much as it helps in regard to volturn, as often the game would come down to who could get SR up in the first few turns. Good point though, I'd love to hear others' opinions on this.

 

[Death in the Wind]

Yes. The fact that Stealth Rock deals at least 25% damage to most Pokémon immune to Spikes, combined with the fact that Stealth Rock along with just a single layer of Spikes deals that exact amount of damage to the majority of Pokémon anyway makes it almost impossible to build a successful team that does not have countermeasures to entry hazards (since most teams that do not have such can expect to have most of their offensive Pokémon capable of switching in only four times per match against a team with both Stealth Rock and Spikes, while their defensive Pokémon also become far less effective at switching in and walling the opponent's Pokémon's attacks. And then of course, there is the general pressure that entry hazards place on a trainer, especially the way they discourage switching, something which often makes people sacrifice Pokémon that they normally would not, and therefore giving their opponent an absolutely massive advantage), and the restriction that this places on team building makes said process incredibly limited, since in order to build a successful team, people need to make an active and conscious effort when team building to ensure that their teams have entry hazards in check, something that involves either including a Rapid Spinner in a team along with Pokémon capable of checking Spin-blockers, including a Magic Bounce Pokémon along with teammates that can very easily threaten common entry hazard setters, or having very entry hazard-resilient Pokémon in an insanely hyper-offensive team. And fulfilling any of the three aforementioned conditions is a process that cannot succeed without already having a significant portion of the team existing for the sole purpose of keeping entry hazards in check, making entry hazards an extremely overcentralizing force in the metagame to my eyes.

And everything I have mentioned above does not even begin to touch on the fact that Stealth Rock alone is capable of dealing a whopping 50% damage to some Pokémon, the fact that there are some Pokémon weak to Stealth Rock and susceptible to Spikes, the fact that even Stealth Rock-resistant Pokémon get destroyed by that entry hazard in addition to two or three layers of Spikes (which is not difficult to set up with Pokémon like Ferrothorn, especially in the rain, due to the sheer number of Pokémon by which it cannot be touched), as well as the fact that entry hazards can be mercilessly abused with pseudo-Hazing moves. I honestly can see no reason to believe that something which demands all successful teams to go to such ridiculous lengths to have countermeasures for could possibly not be broken.

 

[CactusCacti]

I'm gona drop my little opinion on this:

I find it that generally entry hazards are not that broken, but SR is tiptoeing the line with its tectonics.
Due of it's easy of access for so many pokemons and the damage scaling with weakness and resistance, it feels highly limiting for some pokes, and kinda feels like chipping off health for nothing. Sure, there is always rapid spin to get them out, but the low distrubution + all the other faults of it that have been mentioned so many times is really making a big question about whenever its worthwhile (as in if you run many SR weak pokes or have a sash/sturdy user that really needs them out of there or stall running, etc). Many balanced and offensive teams don't really need to care about keeping the rocks out or in, only when spikes and toxics come into play, implying if they have grounded pokemon. It is a bit more effort to get them out than get them in. Yet, it is a large nuinsance for the constant damage health chipping that will add up..

.. specialy when it comes to the whole limiting the pokemon, the one big problem I find that SR has is the damage scale. If it would be tweaked down a bit, I'd imagine it to be a lot more balanced. 25% can be justified on strong pokemon such as many of the dragon types, but 50% on some pokemons that have the 4x weakness is outright cruel, not to mention there are many pokemon that could have more use with a niche if they wouldn't be outright crippled by the rocks(I'm sure you'd see ninjask baton passing outside of being a lead if it didn't lose 50% on switch, more ice types not named mamoswine could be used to counter some of the dragons). 18.5% and 33% for the weakness peaks would sound a lot more better if you ask me. But we don't know if gamefreak is gona re balance the pebbles. Other thing I'd like to see would be layering for the rocks, but, as if.

The damage that adds up from switching is an OK thing as it makes switching bit more tactical rather than making it a switch dance fight with u-turn & volt switches, but the way it scales is rather frustating as it is.

Right now I'd say the rocks are fine just about so-so, if they could be nerfed/tweaked a tiny bit in the next gen I'd imagine it would make a lot of people happy.

 

[youngjake93]

Imagine if spikes were super effective on rock, steel, poison, and fire. Then realize how ridiculous stealth rocks' mechanics are.
You wouldn't be able to switch steel types in on dragons sort of how it doesn't benefit you to switch a fire type into scizor now. It skews everything.

Edit: not broken is down to 57%. Since nearly half think the opposite, should at least a suspect test be done?

 

[Flareon]

The Life Orb sets are particularly troublesome since both CB Scizor and CB Tyranitar need to be at full health to guarantee survival of Starmie's Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock
.

I think this one line proves how ingrained into the meta SR is. Nearly all instances of damage calculation (including on site analyses) assume that SR is up.

 

[LonelyNess]

I think this one line proves how ingrained into the meta SR is. Nearly all instances of damage calculation (including on site analyses) assume that SR is up.

He probably said that without even realizing that he said it. Assuming SR is up is as common place as assuming your opponent has 4 moves on his Pokemon's moveset.

 

[Lady Alex]

Edit: not broken is down to 57%. Since nearly half think the opposite, should at least a suspect test be done?

I wonder what the poll would have looked like if the discussion about Stealth Rock had been in progress before so many people had voted. Since the arguments for banning them have been brought up, the "not broken" results have slowly continued to diminish.

 

[youngjake93]

I wonder what the poll would have looked like if the discussion about Stealth Rock had been in progress before so many people had voted. Since the arguments for banning them have been brought up, the "not broken" results have slowly continued to diminish.

Yea and I don't see an option to change your vote lol it just says "you have already voted"

 

[dcae]

I wonder what the poll would have looked like if the discussion about Stealth Rock had been in progress before so many people had voted. Since the arguments for banning them have been brought up, the "not broken" results have slowly continued to diminish.

Yeah imo this poll isn't reflecting the argument of Stealth Rock. Maybe a new poll? We got some good discussion in this thread, and it would be interesting to observe opinions after this thread.

 

[Flareon]

He probably said that without even realizing that he said it. Assuming SR is up is as common place as assuming your opponent has 4 moves on his Pokemon's moveset.

I know, that's what I'm getting at.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I have to say that my opinion has changed about suspecting SR. There has just been a lack of good arguments as to why we shouldn't suspect SR, and I've been following this thread from the start. I second Dcae's suggestion for a new poll.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

He probably said that without even realizing that he said it. Assuming SR is up is as common place as assuming your opponent has 4 moves on his Pokemon's moveset.

No, I know what I said, and I know why I said it. Notice that nowhere in any of my arguments have I suggested that Stealth Rock isn't an incredible commonplace. I know as well as you do that Stealth Rock is everywhere. As such, in the context of spinners getting past spinblockers and whatnot, Stealth Rock is a very reasonable condition, regardless of whether or not it is the target of current discussion.

EDIT: Also, I might add that the arguments in this thread have really done less to convince me that Stealth Rock is actually broken and more to reaffirm my prior knowledge that Stealth Rock is very metagame-centralizing. Were the same poll brought back up, I'd probably still vote "No" to Stealth Rock being broken (after all, brokenness in and of itself is subjective). However, if the poll was a question of actually suspecting or banning Stealth Rock, I might be more inclined to vote "Yes" on the basis that it could be considered over-centralizing and unhealthy for the metagame (although to be perfectly honest, I'd rather vote "I don't know" or "Abstain" were that an option).

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I have changed my opinion on this matter to stealth rocks being broken. The arguments for it are very, very good. So, basically, I would love to see another poll as well~

 

[Codraroll]

Just a simple observation:

Consider a team of 6 Pokémon, neutral to Stealth Rock on average (there are exactly as many 'mons on the team resisting it as weak to it). If Stealth Rock is used against this team on the first turn, and all its Pokémon are sent into play exactly once, Stealth Rock alone will be chipping away the equivalent of 72.5% of the HP of one "average" team member. No switches, the team isn't weak to it per se, yet it still hits as hard as most neutral 100+ BP moves. It's like having Earthquake used on one Pokémon, but the damage is spread across the entire team. Not too shabby for a move with 100% accuracy, that can only be countered by using a single, low-power, low-distribution move. At least you can switch a flyer into Earthquake.

Add more switches, and you'll find that a significant percentage of all damage dealt in the match is done by Stealth Rock. One turn of setup, which might be regarded as a "free turn" by the opponent, but it also takes a turn to Spin away. And that Rapid Spin turn is also "free", considering the move's measly base power.

Not sure if I'm making any sense here, but there's also Stealth Rock's property of always being beneficial to the team placing it. Once it's up, disregarding the troubles of getting it up in the first place, it will only do good for you and bad for the opponent. The opponent can remove the Rocks, but never use them against you. The best he can do is cancel its effect, by spending a turn bringing in a specific Pokémon and have it use a specific, low-power move.

Then again, against a prepared player, there is no guarantee that Stealth Rock will ever be brought into play. Certain Pokémon will almost guarantee it, yes, but they got banned for that ability. But the uncertainity of Stealth Rock's placement is the only thing keeping it from being totally broken. Imagine if a Pokémon was able to place it upon entering the field. We'd ban that one quicker than you could say "suspect test".

 

[Kidogo]

Well, this has been covered before, but to add to what cobraroll said:
A "SR-neutral" team in fact is weaker to SR than you suggested, since one weak and one resist don't cancel out at all! In fact, if the opponent has two weaks, two resists, and two neutrals, then instead of taking 75% just from switching in (that's the actual number), they take 87.5%. This is obviously compounded when more switching occurs.

An issue that cobraroll didnt even mention is that, unlike setting up SR, getting rid of it via RS is not remotely guaranteed whenever the mon is brought in. SR cannot be blocked outside of magic bounce (poor users) and faster taunt (a rare move, and honestly risky to use when most SR users can hit hard as well. Furthermore, it's rare enough that it's almost telegraphed that you're about to use it, making it predictable), while RS is easily blocked by sending out any ghost type (or a mon that faints on the switch-in).

And actually, I'd disagree with you cobraroll. What got the deos banned was their ability to get SR + another layer consistently. Mainly this is because, if we did really deem guaranteed rocks up broken, we'd have to ban so so much other stuff were we not willing to say SR itself was broken--a little like the argument that we keep banning rain abusers instead of the issue itself (not that I'm wholly convinced at all on this one). Stuff like SR sash terrakion and even sash azelf are very close to guarantees that SR will go up.

Honestly I don't know how important the poll is, but it would certainly be interesting to see what would happen if we got a new one.

 

[lokt]

That's a distinction without a difference. There is no functional difference between banning the move Stealth Rock and the "condition of rocks being up". It's also vastly different from integral mechanics like the physical-special split. The physical-special split is an inherent, background condition that exists from the beginning of any battle regardless of the actions of the battlers. Stealth Rocks only go up if one player uses the move Stealth Rock. Also, you say
Quote:
the pro-ban side has to prove that the over-centralization around stealth rock is harmful to the metagame and would benefit the metagame if it was removed or limited
That's what we've been doing - listing a large number of pokemon who are unviable due to Stealth Rock, and strategies/types that lose effectiveness, shows that Stealth Rock is harmful to the metagame. In the absence of any convincing arguments that Stealth Rock benefits the metagame, it is reasonable to assume that the metagame would benefit if SR was removed.

I simply fundamentally disagree with your characterization of Stealth Rock as a game mechanic on the basis above - it's a move and only comes about as a direct consequence of using a move. That's still distinct from stuff like paralysis and sleep. Using a move induces the state of paralysis/sleep/freeze, but then the mechanics take over and there is a percentage chance (based on the mechanics and independent of the actions of the player) that certain things happen. With SR, you use SR, and every result is constant. Everything that comes about is a direct and predictable effect of the actions of the player, not an independent game mechanic.

I agree with you that the distinction makes no difference. It's just to make it clearer that stealth rock is a large part of the game. When you point out that stealth rock is different from other mechanics, that doesn't exclude it from being a game mechanic, because the other mechanics mentioned also differ from one another. You're definition of a game mechanic is too strict, it can just be defined as an internal part of the game. If you disagree with my definition, it doesn't matter, because we should both agree that stealth rock is a battle condition, and as I said, the definition doesn't matter. What does matter is that the concept of a battle condition dealing damage for every switch-in was as old as gen2, suggesting that it is integral part of the game. As I said, the battling metagame is defined by these battle conditions, and because of that, the overcentralization of stealth rock shouldn't be used as a reason for the banning of stealth rock. Many posts in this thread have simply stated that stealth rock is necessary to succeed, it determines viability, and it is too common. As Lonelyness stated:

Assuming SR is up is as common place as assuming your opponent has 4 moves on his Pokemon's moveset.

Yes, but stealth rock is an essential part of the metagame, which defines the metagame. It's overcentralization shouldn't be used as a reason to ban, as I stated above.
Even if you think stealth rock isn't an integral part of battling, others still do. This makes overcentralization a very subjective argument, and therefore it should not hold any weight.

Other comments that feed into the above: I assumed the jelli spread was EVed to beat bandtar. This is standard and should be done regardless of what jelli's role in the team is, as being faster or slower than it, as you cemonstrated, makes the difference between survival and death. Outspeed, WoW, see if pursuit or crunch and what set it is based on damage. If band crunch, switch out; if anything else, you take < 50%, so just stay in and recover off damage when necessary. Gengar has roughly a 50/50 shot to beat bandtar, assuming fblast hits; fine, but that's a hell lot better than starmie has. LOgar is also a very prominent set among higher-level players, with pain split and dbond both abusing the LO damage. Jelli dominates zor for obvious reason, while just the threat of HP fire is often enough to discourage zor from trying to trap gar. Nevertheless, it doesn't actually matter that much, as I've said, if they beat the pursuiters (and I hope you will agree that at the very least they have on average a much better shot at it than the spinners do of beating their trappers?).

Speed creep shouldn't be accounted for when talking about the reliability of spinblocking. I know that many people also run speed creep on Tyranitar, using 144 or 176 speed evs. Gengar is also a very bad spinblocker, and doesn't spinblock reliably at all. It obviously can't spinblock starmie. Tentacruel can also scald or sub on the switch, dealing about 50%. Gengar also can't spinblock forretress, since gyro ball does massive damage to it. Gengar is to prediction reliant to be noted as a "reliable" spinblocker, and even then, it fails to beat starmie, the most common spinner.

A "SR-neutral" team in fact is weaker to SR than you suggested, since one weak and one resist don't cancel out at all! In fact, if the opponent has two weaks, two resists, and two neutrals, then instead of taking 75% just from switching in (that's the actual number), they take 87.5%. This is obviously compounded when more switching occurs.

Yes, that does seem like a lot of damage. But we have to consider that this damage doesn't make a difference in most cases. I'll cover the effects of having stealth rock up when using offense and balance.
Offense: Stealth rock only effects one or two pokemon at most. This is because when using an offensive team, the player has to try to weaken a few checks or counters for a pokemon to sweep. This pokemon usually only needs to have specific checks/counters weakened, and likely beats the rest of the team with or without stealth rock. If a counter to your planned sweeper has reliable recovery, wearing it down won't be easy. Now, we'll look at punching holes early game. In this case, stealth rock only matters if it is making a difference between a 2hko and a ohko, or a 3hko and a 2hko. Obviously, if a pokemon is going to be ohko'd or 2hko'd with or without stealth rock, the extra damage doesn't make any difference.
Balance: When using a balanced team, the player is trying to weaken the opposing team with a few offensive pokemon. As stated earlier in my post, these pokemon only need certain checks or counters weakened or removed. Stealth rock only effects these pokemon. Counters also usually have reliable recovery(due to the definition of a counter) and aren't effected very much by stealth rock. Stealth rock only matters against checks if stealth rock makes a difference between a 2hko and ohko, or a 3hko and a 2hko. A person also has to consider that it takes quite a long time to wear down checks by stealth rock alone, due to lefties healing half of the damage done by stealth rock(or more. unless your opponent is using a stealth rock weak check, which shouldn't be their only way to deal with a certain sweeper).

 

[Sound]

Add more switches, and you'll find that a significant percentage of all damage dealt in the match is done by Stealth Rock. One turn of setup, which might be regarded as a "free turn" by the opponent, but it also takes a turn to Spin away. And that Rapid Spin turn is also "free", considering the move's measly base power.

Just adding something on here. A free turn very early in the game doesn't mean nearly as much as it does mid-game or late-game. I.E. When you're setting up SR, sure, I can get a SD on my Terrakion, but chances are, your counter is still well and healthy since this is still during the early game. When I need to Spin (During the mid-game), I am risking a lot more by giving you a free turn to set up, or get your cleaner in scot free.

 

[Organization Member XIV]

Yes, but stealth rock is an essential part of the metagame

Do I really need to say more? If we've come to the point where SR is considered ESSENTIAL, then I do not honestly know what to say. I mean yes, I know what lokt was replying to, but assuming your opponent's Pokemon has 4 moves is just common sense.

EDIT: *Sigh* Really, Ditto OBVIOUSLY won't have 4 moves without Imposter activated and Last Resort mons are gimmicks anyways :/

 

[youngjake93]

Do I really need to say more? If we've come to the point where SR is considered ESSENTIAL, then I do not honestly know what to say. I mean yes, I know what lokt was replying to, but assuming your opponent's Pokemon has 4 moves is just common sense.

Ditto and last resort mons don't carry 4 moves!

Edit: lol the guy above me can't take a joke.

 

[faint]

Yea and I don't see an option to change your vote lol it just says "you have already voted"

You cannot edit poll options, which is specifically why I encouraged people that would be voting to also start a discussion.

Regarding those of you that feel SR should be suspect tested, I specifically said in the OP that this thread has no relation to any potential banning or test. You would need to discuss any form of testing with the moderators of this forum, as I have no power or say to do so. You can use this thread as an example of how split the issue is, but my intent was to never start a potential test, it was only to gather an opinion on hazards.

So again, if you wish to discuss the possibility of testing SR you would need approval from the majority of the mods in this forum (assuming it is specific to OU only). But obviously you can't guarantee they would be in favor of this.

 

[hathater]

Banning SR would have as much controversy as garchomp in ubers in gen iv we got made fun of on 4chan for this. But, I don't see why banning SR is useful? SR is on most teams. Also, it restricts other pokemon from having more moves to damage the opposing pokemon.

 

[dcae]

You cannot edit poll options, which is specifically why I encouraged people that would be voting to also start a discussion.

I believe you could PM a SMod or Admin to reset the poll, that way we could see how the debate has affected people's opinions on the topic.

 

[aAa123]

I would say the damage stealth rock does to 2x or 4x is too much. Chipping 50% hp off my Charizard is nonsense.