Espeon

[the voice of reason]

I can't remember if I've already contributed to this thread or not, but I think that the first spambot made a valid point. Yawn with protect seems to be a fine way of sleep harassment to me, and grass knot > hidden power [fire]. I would not be inclined to drop Espeon's speed IV, especially when so many people are putting forth 252/252 HP/Spd spreads. What's the point of having 349 speed? Tie-ing with Gengar who also run hidden power [fire]? Seriously now, that just seems silly to me. 125 base speed pokemon are not to be trifled with by Espeon. Beat them with 350 speed, or don't mess with them at all. Avoid hidden power [fire]. Plus, a few of the pokemon that you'd be using hidden power [fire] on, such as nattorei and forretress, can be sufficiently screwed with just be reflecting their entrance hazards in the first place (or lech seed, in nattorei's case).

Does magic coat/mirror reflect the side effects of rapid spin?

 

[Banryu]

I can't remember if I've already contributed to this thread or not, but I think that the first spambot made a valid point. Yawn with protect seems to be a fine way of sleep harassment to me, and grass knot > hidden power [fire]. I would not be inclined to drop Espeon's speed IV, especially when so many people are putting forth 252/252 HP/Spd spreads. What's the point of having 349 speed? Tie-ing with Gengar who also run hidden power [fire]? Seriously now, that just seems silly to me. 125 base speed pokemon are not to be trifled with by Espeon. Beat them with 350 speed, or don't mess with them at all. Avoid hidden power [fire]. Plus, a few of the pokemon that you'd be using hidden power [fire] on, such as nattorei and forretress, can be sufficiently screwed with just be reflecting their entrance hazards in the first place (or lech seed, in nattorei's case).

Does magic coat/mirror reflect the side effects of rapid spin?

The point of my set wasn't just to 'screw with' Natt/Skarm/etc, it was to also eliminate them so that they aren't interrupting anyone's sweep later. :0 I will, admit, however, that I was totally theorymonning on that one; for one thing, there's the possibility that Natt and Skarm will just switch to a counter like TTar, preventing you from landing a hit on them, and I also overlooked the fact that HP Fire drops your speed.

So, it could very well be the case that my concept was flawed in that regard. However, offensive/yawn Espy can still be effective.

Man, but it really sucks that all of Espy's steel-hitting HPs lower his speed. :0 If I recall correctly, Fighting will do that too, so that's no good if Speed is what you're worried about. Damn. But all the same, it's still good, because Espy isn't meant to sweep... it reflects the stuff you need reflected and KOs whatever stuff it can while it's still out and about. That's all it really needs to do, I guess.

 

[Charlemagne]

^I say either run HP Ice, or screw Hidden Power altogether.

Does magic coat/mirror reflect the side effects of rapid spin?

I don't see why it would. It doesn't reflect, say, Discharge's paralysis, or Icy Wind's Speed drop.

 

[Banryu]

HP is all Espeon has to hit Steels with. :0 *sigh* It sucks, man. I guess Espy just can't get around them.

 

[Charlemagne]

HP is all Espeon has to hit Steels with. :0 *sigh* It sucks, man. I guess Espy just can't get around them.

Actually, Espeon can run HP Ground, if it doesn't use Max SpAtk.

Still, it feels meh. This is all GameFreak's fault.

 

[Banryu]

It is meh. Although still, I guess max-1 SAtk isn't as important as max-1 Speed. :\

Regardless, Espeon knows what it's good at... hitting steels isn't and never has been part of it's job description. As I said, a set like the one I designed is still perfectly capable of functioning without coverage on Steels.

 

[Jaroda]

Does it completely? I realize that it's a pretty obvious fact I'm pointing out, I just think it's important to take note that Espeon isn't immune to getting set up on by stat-up sweepers. :0 Especially things like Dragonite, which with Multi-Scale it can't KO before it gets a few boosts off. It could be one of those things that you don't consider if you're thinking that Espeon is 'immune to non-attacking moves'-- you get into the mindset that directly damaging it and nothing else is the only way to get rid of it.
~

</p>
I don't have an issue with the point you're making, just that you think I'm somehow ignoring it. I'm ok with Espeon not handling Steels as I don't really care. If you can get Yawn, that in conjunction with screens is more than enough to incapacitate your threat while you can switch to something that can better set up with the added protection that can handle steels. Bulk Up Roopushin in my case.

 

[No. 1 Machop Fan]

How do you think an anti-lead Espeon with Magic Mirror would fare against an Aerodactyl lead? Would Crunch be enough to OHKO the Psychic-type?

I'm assuming the Aerodactyl would try to Taunt the Espeon, which would turn into it being Taunted itself, and then having to use an attacking move, Crunch probably being more likely to appear because of Espeon.

 

[Donovantx8]

How do you think an anti-lead Espeon with Magic Mirror would fare against an Aerodactyl lead? Would Crunch be enough to OHKO the Psychic-type?

I'm assuming the Aerodactyl would try to Taunt the Espeon, which would turn into it being Taunted itself, and then having to use an attacking move, Crunch probably being more likely to appear because of Espeon.

Most Aerodoctyl I've seen run Rock Slide or Stone Edge along side Earthquake for coverage. If it's a lead set, then it's most likely running Taunt, as mentioned, and Stealth Rock, so unless Espeon becomes increasingly popular then Crunch shouldn't be one of your worries. You should be setting up Reflect, while they Taunt and also softening the coming Attack.

That being said with 105 Base Attack, Espeon's shaky 60 Defense won't be standing up to a Crunch, or any non-resisted Physical Attack, very well if at all. Though in all honestly Aerodoctyl is more likely to fire off a Stone Edge coming off 180 BP, while Crunch sits at 160.

 

[Charlemagne]

^But Stone Edge only has 150 power. It's base 100 not 120.

Most people aren't dumb enough to intentionally taunt an Espeon, Machop Fan.
I'm guessing you mean if Espeon switches in.

 

[No. 1 Machop Fan]

^So Crunch will still do a little more.

I'll admit was thinking about the idea of switching in on Aerodactyl, maybe after it Taunts and is about to SR, because of Magic Mirror.

I'm thinking Espeon might become a popular anti-lead despite Aerodactyl, and/or Aerodactyl will become an even more popular lead. I already knew about SR and the Ground/Rock combo, as I use a lead Aerodactyl myself, but I think replacing one of those moves with Crunch might become a popular option (unless SE is enough to OHKO anyway).

 

[Charlemagne]

lol Crunch misses the OHKO by 1 HP. It literally does a max of 270 to Espeon's 271 HP.

Making Aerodactyl want to Crunch against a lead like Hippowdon instead of SR is really a testament to Espeon's effectiveness.

 

[Jaroda]

The problem Machop fan with using an Espeon as a lead is that you lose the element of surprise and nobody (except those still unsavvy with Gen 5) will willingly try to disable an Espeon. Espeon is for better used switching into something like Skarmory or Nattorei who you know will use Spikes, or an Erufuun or Borotorosu that you know will try to paralyze you. Sure, an Espeon in lead will deter your opponent from using non-attack moves, but at the same time there's more benefit if you bounce them back.

 

[TLK]

Plus, the best leads this gen all seem to run U-Turn from what I've seen. Pretty sure all the MH genies and Erufuun will carry U-Turn if leading, so a clever player would go for that, trap Espeon with a T-Tar or something just to finish it off.

 

[RotatingAtom]

Hey, if Heatran switches in on Magic Mirror Espeon and uses Will-o-Wisp on it, can Heatran activate his own Flash Fire? :naughty:

 

[Green Mage]

Magic Mirror does not bounce the effect of rapid spin. This is one of the reasons that I find HP fire almost invaluable, as it will kill Forry instead of letting it spin its own rocks away (not to mention the common scizor switch-in). Having a fire attack to deal with natty, forry and scizor is worth losing a point of speed and spa. I currently run Psycho Shock, Reflect, Grass Knot and HP Fire and the thing is a god damn superstar. Psycho Shock 3HKOs Blissey, and sometimes 2HKOs it depending on evs I guess (remember, she can't t-wave you).

Heatran can activate his own flash fire if you bounce its wisp. I'm guessing that's the case anyway, because the one time it happened (i was expecting it to put rocks up), will-o-wisp actually missed on the bounce.

It should be noted that my experience comes from Pokemon Online. I don't have the actual game.

 

[Psikid]

Plus, the best leads this gen all seem to run U-Turn from what I've seen. Pretty sure all the MH genies and Erufuun will carry U-Turn if leading, so a clever player would go for that, trap Espeon with a T-Tar or something just to finish it off.

In case the opponent is not carrying a U-Turn lead, however, wouldn't it be effective to lead with Espeon, induce the opponent to Pursuit, and BP out to a Scarfed Righteous Heart user?

 

[Jaroda]

Then why not just lead with the Righteous Heart user?

 

[Psikid]

I guess my thought was that, if you lead with the RH user, the opponent will be aware of the boost you receive and thus opt not to hit you with a Dark attack. With Espeon, though, the opponent will refrain from any non-damaging move for fear of having it bounce back and thus try to take you out ASAP, the most surefire method by utilizing a strong Dark attack.

 

[Jaroda]

I still don't see what you're trying to get at. Why are you trying to bait a Dark attack unless you have something like a Kerudio or any Heart of Justice user? Why wouldn't you keep your Espeon in reserve and make a good educated guess as to bounce a status or field hazard in your opponent's face?

 

[Psikid]

Well, baiting a Dark attack would only be done on the premise that one does have a RH user lying in wait. By drawing the opponent to attack in a certain way, one reduces the amount of guesswork necessary. Of course, this is all me postulating, but the opponent would theoretically try to take out Espeon with a Dark attack, only to strike the RH user, who can now presumably take out the opponent with ease, thanks to the RH attack boost and the Scarf speed boost. In effect, one could establish Espeon's presence early on, thus deterring status/hazards in the early game, take out the opponent's lead, and still keep Espeon in reserve for later. Again, all my own guesswork. XD

 

[Green Mage]

Pursuit would hit Espeon and not the justice heart user. As for other dark attacks, the game reveals your team to your opponent now, so they'd know you have a justice heart user and predict. You could predict their prediction but they could predict you predicting their prediction and so on and so on.

 

[Gah777]

Hey this won't contribute to anything, really. But, if a Yawn set becomes a standard, has anyone thought of naming it "EspYawn"?

 

[Banryu]

Well, baiting a Dark attack would only be done on the premise that one does have a RH user lying in wait. By drawing the opponent to attack in a certain way, one reduces the amount of guesswork necessary. Of course, this is all me postulating, but the opponent would theoretically try to take out Espeon with a Dark attack, only to strike the RH user, who can now presumably take out the opponent with ease, thanks to the RH attack boost and the Scarf speed boost. In effect, one could establish Espeon's presence early on, thus deterring status/hazards in the early game, take out the opponent's lead, and still keep Espeon in reserve for later. Again, all my own guesswork. XD

You guys, the premise of what he's saying is sound... I wouldn't use it as a lead by any means, but having Baton Pass on an Espy set over the Yawn slot effectively makes Espeon a grade-A Tyranitar (or Pursuit in general) lure. Baton Pass on Tyranitar's Crunch (or Pursuit, it works either way unless they changed the mechanics of Pursuit) to Lucario, who now threatens to scare away TTar with its big nasty STAB Fighting attacks. Tyranitar flees and Luke is free to set up with its boosting move of choice that very turn.

Hey this won't contribute to anything, really. But, if a Yawn set becomes a standard, has anyone thought of naming it "EspYawn"?

*rimshot* LOLLLL. THAT'S GOOD.

 

[Icy_eagle]

Pursuit would hit Espeon and not the justice heart user. As for other dark attacks, the game reveals your team to your opponent now, so they'd know you have a justice heart user and predict. You could predict their prediction but they could predict you predicting their prediction and so on and so on.

Hence Baton Pass