I have to say, even though I haven't had that many games, that i'm more inclined towards the Swords Dance set rather than Dragon Dance in OU. +2 Waterfall is so powerful, and aqua jet is just a phenomenal move to have as well. Also I agree, Mega Manectric is a GREAT team partner :]
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Pokémon Feraligatr
- Thread starter Fortune
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The biggest problem with SD is that it really doesn't hold as much of a niche over crawdaunt as the DD set has over gyarados. Craw has a stronger ability in almost every case, has a fantastically spammable move in knock off, and secures important OHKOs on scarf lando-t and slowbro with +1 ajet and +2 KO respectively. The speed and bulk feraligatr brings gives it a niche, don't get me wrong, I just feel that the DD set accomplishes more that other pokemon can't (essentially being a gyarados with a stronger waterfall that has a way to beat slowbro and ferrothorn - and in the case of mega gyarados, doesn't take a mega slot).
Also, SD ajet has to choose between crunch and superpower, which is really tough considering ferrothorn and slowbro are huge defensive threats that still get usage on offense. I guess you could try to get past this with clever teambuilding though.
Feraligatr looks like fun to play with in general honestly just because it has two different boosting moves, two great coverage moves in crunch and superpower, STAB priority, sheer force STAB waterfall, and some interesting options like substitute, focus punch, toxic, resttalk and whirlpool (hey I never said every option would be 100% viable).
Well, with Adamant +2 Crunch is a 2HKO on the OU Utility build of Ferrothorn; that's not too shabby for a wallbreaker neutral hit. Even Jolly has a 43% chance to 2HKO. I know I argued for Ice Punch earlier, but Water/Dark does give better neutral coverage, and if you want to have Aqua Jet + Swords Dance, well, better to go neutral as possible.
I'm torn on Jolly versus Adamant for SD - what do you outspeed of value from 255 to 280 speed? Going all-in on the Attack, particularly if you have Aqua Jet, makes sense to me for SD.
I'm torn on Jolly versus Adamant for SD - what do you outspeed of value from 255 to 280 speed? Going all-in on the Attack, particularly if you have Aqua Jet, makes sense to me for SD.
Diggersby speed tie, jolly sd mega scizor, jolly 70s timid heatran are some relevant things you get with jolly as well as neutral speed nature base 80s
While craw has the instant power, gatr has much more after an sd and a combination of aqua jet for faster threats, life orb sheer force boosted waterfall + crunch and decent bulk, allow gatr to differchiate it's self as a wall breaker than crawdant, who has no real hope of getting up an sd in comparison to gatr, is much easier to revenge kill and is very frail.
I see your point; it is easier to set up I'll admit. Also the fact that +2 crunch 2hkoes ferro is very interesting and is something I didn't even consider. Crawdaunt is still noticeably stronger then feraligatr after an SD(which isn't as hard to get as you seem to think), but you're right it's not outclassed.
On the topic of jolly vs adamant on SD, I don't think that's much of a question. Base 70+ has become an important speed tier with things like jolly bisharp, jolly breloom, jolly metagross before mega, timid heatran (not so common but it does pop up now and then), diggersby, adamant base 80s, and all the higher speed bulky mons that run enough speed to creep bisharp or other things around that speed(celebi, mew, zapdos etc). Heck, for bisharp and breloom alone I would run jolly.
AD impish john
Consumed by Darkness...
My question is which set is better SD or DD. and Waterfall or Aqua jet? (I'm asking to know which set to breed for my own on ORAS :])
SD and DD both have their advantages, but I prefer SD. I think that SD is Feraligatr's main advantage over Gyarados besides hitting harder, and Aqua Jet at +2 can revenge kill at large amount of mons, and works as a great revenge killer. imo Mega Gyarados is better at running a DD set because of Intimidate, better typing, and better bulk.
On an SD set, you should be running SD / waterfall / aqua jet / crunch, for priority and best neutral coverage, but if you chose to run a DD set, you don't need aqua jet as much, so you could get away with DD / waterfall / ice punch / crunch.
On an SD set, you should be running SD / waterfall / aqua jet / crunch, for priority and best neutral coverage, but if you chose to run a DD set, you don't need aqua jet as much, so you could get away with DD / waterfall / ice punch / crunch.
AD impish john
Consumed by Darkness...
Thnx Man :]
Maybe I did come across as a little dismissive of crawdants ability to get up a sd, his power alows him to easily force a switch against offensive minded threats and easily sweep with aqua jet, but still i feel that gatr has a nice balance against all styles compared to crawdant. With an easier time against balance with his grater speed and bulk allowing him to set up a bit easier, such as more defensive celebi that run speed to outdo the slow lobseter, but not gatr.
What do guys think about dragon tail on the DD set? it can go for DD on a set up fodder then when the opponent brings something with focus sash or that can take any hit and OHKO back you can simply use dragon tail to destroy its sash/ weaken it and bring something else Feraligatr can deal with
Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Dragon Tail
Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Dragon Tail
The whole point of using Dragon Dance is to boost Feraligatr's speed, and Dragon Tail's negative priority takes away that aspect. You're better off just running Swords Dance, but even then, Dragon Tail doesn't make full use of Sheer Force, and with the prevalance of Fairy types in OU, it'll be hard getting away with it. Besides, Azumarill, one of Gatr's best counters is immune to Dragon Tail. Phazing is better left to a teammate. Feraligatr is a sweeper, not a phazer.
When Feraligatr was first released, I thought for sure Dragon Dance would be it's best set. After experimenting with a few sets, I am not so sure. As of right now, I believe a set of Swords Dance, Waterfall, Aqua Jet, and Crunch/Substitute with a Jolly nature and max attack and speed might be its best. The problem with Dragon Dance sets that Ive been having is that my opponent either has something that can outspeed and revenge Feraligatr, or tank a hit and fire back. With Swords Dance, however, Feraligatr can almost always take something down and always puts in work for my team. It's speed, usable bulk, better defensive typing, and lack of recoil from Life Orb make it better than Crawdaunt in my opininon, who is better off using a Choice Band anyways. Especially the speed, don't underestimate how important it is to be above the 70 speed tier, because many pokemon often run just enough speed to outspeed Jolly Brelooms and Bisharps.
Also, I haven't gotten around to trying out a Double Dance set or a set of Waterfall, Crunch, Swords Dance, and Dragon Dance. I feel like both of these sets have more potential than plain Dragon Dance so all I am really saying is that SD Feraligatr is better than DD Feraligatr.
Also, I haven't gotten around to trying out a Double Dance set or a set of Waterfall, Crunch, Swords Dance, and Dragon Dance. I feel like both of these sets have more potential than plain Dragon Dance so all I am really saying is that SD Feraligatr is better than DD Feraligatr.
given how strong gatr can be off the bat, I think agility is a better option than dragon dance, it gives gatr th much needed speed to destroy and wreak weakened threats or frail threats, like you say dd has a similiar issue to gyarados, it's relitively prone to be revenge by faster scarfers, mainly as gatr is bulky enough to take a hit but not multiple hits, with agility gatr gains a nw level of flexibility against teams, he can fire off a swords dance to act as a potent wall breaker or sped up with an agility to pick off weakened threats.
Actually, how does a straight up adamant agility + 3 attacks set sound? Still hits hard and outspeeds mega aero, sceptile, etc.
Edit: MilkyWay, I was just thinkin' standard.jpg waterfall, ice punch, crunch. Superpower can be slashed for crunch if you really hate ferrothorn.
Edit: MilkyWay, I was just thinkin' standard.jpg waterfall, ice punch, crunch. Superpower can be slashed for crunch if you really hate ferrothorn.
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I agree, Feraligatr definitely has the same problem as Gyarados in that respect, which is why I never use DD Gyarados or even Mega Gyarados for that matter. My only problem with a double dance set is that Feraligatr will have to choose between Crunch and Aqua Jet in it's fourth moveslot, which is a difficult decision. However, Adamant Agility with three attacking moves sounds like an idea worth trying to me. What moves did you have in mind, DragonAscent? Obviously Waterfall...So yeah, I really dont like the Dragon Dance set for the same reason I don't like Gyarados, the double dance set has slight 4MSS; however a SD Sub set, SD +3 attacks, and Adamant Agility all seem solid sets to me.
Tbh dd gatr ill always have that one big advantage over megagyarados, it doesn't take up a mega slot and that's still a pretty big deal. I would argue another few merits, such as being harder to revenge kill by virtue of only 2 weaknesses to mega gyaradoses 4 and being more powerful right off the bat, even with a jolly nature vs a mega gyarados adamant, but leets face it, at the end of the day, your using another mega if your using dd gatr right :)?
You guys familiar with that serperior + megados offensive core? I really like mega scep + gatr, which is kind of a flip flopped version.
yes the core ushally adds talonflame into the mix for extra flavoring, the core has been mentioned in this thread before, so to sum it briefly, it uses sd talonflame, sd gatr and variable sets of mega-sceptile, either all out attacker or a sub set version. Makes for a very nice F/G/W core, as they cover each others weaknesses, well enough, gatr handles walls talonflame cannot break, talonflame roasts threats and kills offf fighting types and steels, while megasceptile sals the deal by dealing with covring water type thrats and can handl heatran as well if it desires, with acess to earthquake. Of cours it needs a little suport dealign with certain threats, as septile does not care much for av raikou or can switch into thunderous, through risk of hp ice to the fac, so for that reason the lati make good partners well, not to mention acess to defog to clear the field for talonflame.
I know I keep saying this but I'm going to say it one more time: there is almost no reason to run SD Feraligatr over SD Crawdaunt. The extra bulk people always site when discussing the advantages of SD Feraligatr are grossly over-exaggerated. It has decent bulk for sure, but it's not worth the significant drop in power as well as the loss of STAB Knock Off, which is by far one of the biggest selling points of Crawdaunt in the first place. I mean seriously, do people not realize that it's kind of odd that SD Gatr and Mega Manectric work well together when one of the best known partners to Crawdaunt is also Manectric? At least with DD Gatr, you have the advantage of hitting harder than Gyarados, not having a rocks weakness, and not being a Mega. With SD Gatr, you trade some extra bulk for a lot of power as well as the utility of Knock Off. It really just doesn't seem worth it to me at all.
Crawdaunt lows bulk and poor defensive typing just don't screem the superior swords dancer over gatr, he has to force out threats in order to get an sd(which he is admittedly decent at) or risk getting koed before he can sweep. To me all the advtanges of crawdawnt over gatr with knock off, much more dangerous aqua jet and the powerful powerful second stab, are much bettr served on such a frail and powerful hitter, are better served as mentioned before on a choice band set, rather than sd. I think it's not a question or who is the better Sd user, but rather who is the superior wall breaker, gatr has to set up sd to plow through walls and then needs support to get past ferrothorn unless it's switching into an attack from 2+ gatr waterfall or crunch in which a second crunch is sufficient i believe for the ko. Crawdaunt is absurdly powerful off the bat and dosn't need that boost gatr does to wreck, but it is pretty frail and has to watch out for something it cannot ko or risk being koed back.
Bisharp can't touch Crawdaunt and Feraligatr can't touch Breloom with the crunch set anyway...so those two are pretty irrelevant things to outspeed. Celebi is admittedly something that can stop Crawdaunt from sweeping, but as a wall breaker I'm not sure why that matters. Celebi certainly can't switch into LO STAB Adaptability Knock Off, and if it gets a free switch then it's most likely after something has already been. The bulk is indeed a positive, but as I said before, trading a noticible amount of power for bulk on what is meant to be a wall breaker seems pretty backwards to me.
I think the point is gatr has a much easier time setting up SD than crawdaunt, it has better typing and bulk than crawdaunt from a defensive perspective and will more often than crawdaunt to st up a swords dance, but crawdaunt don't need a swords dance to wall break and it's frailty, low speed and poor defensive typing mean in my opinion it has no real business risking setting up a swords dance, even with it's powerful aqua jet. I personally see crawdaunt as having better thing's to do than setting up a SD, it just seems counter productive to me, on something as strong and as frail as crawdaunt to bother risking it. In my opinion crawdaunt is better off with life orb or choice band, breking through walls without a sd boost, than he is trying to risk getting one, it's bulk 63/85/55 is pretty terrible and it couldn't feasibly take a hit to save it's self. Again I have no doubt Gatr is able to set up a swords dance better and overall because of it's superior typing and bulk allowing it to get one off much easier than crawdaunt, and I think the real question lies in - is it worth trying to set up with gatr, when i can do the same job w/o the need to set up with crawdaunt?
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