Texas Cloverleaf
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[16:51:51] <Texas> hey Skyla
[16:51:59] <Texas> turns out i actually win fighting gym
[16:52:02] <Mamo> I should take a tlr
[16:52:04] <Texas> dogfish44 you need to be present
[16:52:24] <Skyla> Omg i was right?
[16:52:30] <ooraloo> no
[16:52:31] <Mamo> !asbstats phoine
[16:52:32] <phoenix> no
[16:52:32] <ooraloo> it's struggle
[16:52:34] <phoenix> >_>
[16:52:38] <Mamo> !asbstats phione
[16:52:50] <Texas> no we were all wrong
[16:52:50] <Skyla> Struggle?
[16:53:02] <Texas> is what it should be
[16:53:11] <Mamo> gdi phione, ywhy you got to have just over the +2 ranks BRT for everstone
[16:53:11] <SubwayJ> Skyla you can't give fort tpf, you gotta take all the other challs in the queue first ;)
[16:53:20] <Skyla> Oh yeah
[16:53:22] <Texas> i guess i should highlight birkal too
[16:53:28] <phoenix> FortClasses: go specify the tlr
[16:53:45] <Texas> apologies birkal, I was just made aware of this and it would be foolish not to point it out
[16:53:56] <SubwayJ> !asbmove Teleport
[16:54:04] <Skyla> Umm Texas check the asb description
[16:54:26] <phoenix> !asbmove gravity
[16:54:27] <phoenix> !asbmove bounce
[16:54:43] <Skyla> It says fail
[16:54:45] <Skyla> Not struggle
[16:54:57] <Texas> http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-texas-cloverleaf.3556700/page-2#post-6638021
[16:55:09] <Skyla> Im reading that
[16:55:18] <Alakazam> @asbmove bounce
[16:55:21] <ASBot> Bounce - Flying | Physical | Any Single Target | Formula BAP | 85% Acc | Formula EN Cost | 30% Eff% | Contact: Yes | 0 and -1 Prio | Combo Type: Force | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: No
[16:55:21] <ASBot> The user leaps above an incoming attack and crashes down on the opponent with immense force that may paraly e. The user leaps at Priority 0 and strikes at Priority -1. While between these phases, the user of Bounce avoids most attacks. Gust, Hurricane, Sky Uppercut, Smack Down, Thunder, Twister, and Whirlwind ignore Bounce's evasive properties. Being struck by Smack Down and Gravity will cancel Bounce; the Bounce user will take ...
[16:55:21] <ASBot> ... falling damage equal to twice their own Weight Class, plus 4. Being struck by Gust, Twister, and Whirlwind will cause Bounce to automatically miss, but will not result in falling damage.
[16:55:23] <ASBot> BAP Formula: 7 + (User Weight Class / 2.5). Round up.
[16:55:23] * Toon (Mibbit@synIRC-DF86A130.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) has joined
[16:55:25] <ASBot> Energy Cost Formula: 9 + (User Weight Class / 3).
[16:55:26] <Skyla> But ive been told that asb desc supercedes ingame
[16:55:36] <phoenix> the description of bounce
[16:55:39] <phoenix> has nothing to do with it
[16:55:44] <Texas> well considering how vague you were, i have no idea what you're referring to
[16:55:44] <phoenix> it's the desc of gravity
[16:55:49] <Alakazam> @asbmove gravity
[16:55:51] <ASBot> Gravity - Psychic | Other | Entire Battle | -- BAP | -- Acc | 10 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: N/A | 0 Prio | Combo Type: Passive | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: No
[16:55:51] <ASBot> The user greatly increases the gravity in the arena for four (4) rounds. Immunities to any Ground-type moves are nullified for the duration. The moves Bounce, Fly, High Jump Kick, Jump Kick, Magnet Rise, Sky Drop, and Splash fail when used. Furthermore, all Pokemon suffer an Evasion drop, increasing the relative accuracy of attacks by 67% (x1.67). If Gravity is used again, the effect is nullified.
[16:56:04] <Skyla> Its the third sentence
[16:56:14] <Alakazam> i can read
[16:56:15] <Texas> I'm like 99.9999% sure that's just a typographical quirk
[16:56:17] <Alakazam> thank you very much
[16:56:29] <deadfox> there is no asb mechanic for "fail"
[16:56:37] <phoenix> also
[16:56:37] <Texas> and it's technically accurate because boucne will fail if used ont he same action as gravity
[16:56:42] <phoenix> what part of the combo description
[16:56:45] <deadfox> "fail" = illegal order = do nothing if it was caused on that action else struggle
[16:56:49] <Texas> the handbook has clear ruling for using an illegal order
[16:56:54] <phoenix> says the combo has to be performed sucessfully anyway
[16:56:54] <Texas> and bounce literally cant be ordered in game
[16:56:55] <Skyla> Kk them struggle
[16:56:57] <Texas> making it illegal
[16:56:59] <Skyla> And gg
[16:57:31] * SubwayJ is now known as Skiddinner
[16:57:49] <Skyla> K so texas can you revert my reffing to its original post
[16:58:02] <Skyla> Then I'll go edit some things to make it work
[16:58:15] <Texas> i'd rather you repost it for posterity, but i can copy the raw log for you
[16:58:38] <Skyla> That works
[16:58:47] <Skyla> I just need to get the original
[16:59:04] <Texas> this is the history entry
[16:59:13] <Texas> so it includes the changed text
[16:59:16] <Texas> you'll have to parse that out
[16:59:16] <Texas> http://pastebin.com/HhkFQMmK
[16:59:23] <Skyla> Kk
[17:01:46] <Birkal> not yet
[17:02:22] <Birkal> "Sometimes, a Pokemon will be perfectly capable of attempting a move, but the conditions of the battle will make the move fail. Using Sucker Punch on an opponent that uses Swords Dance, for example, or Toxic on a Pokemon under the effects of Safeguard. In such cases, the Pokemon expends the energy required for the move, but the move's effect does not occur."
[17:02:35] <Texas> That is not the case here
[17:02:43] <Texas> Hawlucha is not capable of attempting the move
[17:02:50] <Birkal> yes it is, it knows them
[17:02:53] <phoenix> also if it /was/ capable of failing
[17:02:55] <Birkal> the conditions of the battle make the move fail
[17:02:58] <Texas> As the replay shows, attempting to Bounce under Gravity is struggle
[17:03:00] <Birkal> (gravity)
[17:03:03] <Texas> aka, cannot be ordered
[17:03:09] <deadfox> hawlucha would also be capable of using tocis while taunted, since it knows the move
[17:03:10] <Texas> aka is not capable of orderinh
[17:03:11] <Birkal> you know that PS can't be used for something like this
[17:03:14] <deadfox> toxic*
[17:03:17] <Birkal> competitive mons doesn't use combos >__>
[17:03:24] <Texas> Birkal that argument is horseshit and you know it
[17:03:35] <Birkal> nah
[17:03:37] <Skyla> Hmm
[17:03:41] <Birkal> we break in game all the time
[17:03:51] <Birkal> the issue is that handbook conflicts itself
[17:03:51] <Texas> Not once in the history of ASB has a mon not Struggled when it should, based on that
[17:03:52] <Texas> Not once.
[17:04:05] <Texas> by that line, there should never be struggle
[17:04:08] <Texas> only fails
[17:04:21] <Birkal> nah, because that's for taunt / torment / etc
[17:04:25] <Birkal> which is also listed in the handbook
[17:04:25] <Skyla> Hmm i believe texas is correct here
[17:04:27] <Texas> It's for illegal moves
[17:04:27] <Birkal> but not the case here
[17:04:32] <phoenix> imo wait
[17:04:33] <Texas> Which Bounce is, under Gravity
[17:04:35] <phoenix> until this settles skyla
[17:04:41] <Texas> just as non-damaging are, under Taunt
[17:04:49] <Birkal> no, they're different
[17:04:56] <Birkal> if you read the handbook, there are different sections for both
[17:05:04] <Skyla> Wait i got it
[17:05:06] <phoenix> what does comboes
[17:05:08] <phoenix> have to do with
[17:05:09] <FMD> You can still order Fly while Gravity is in effect, but you can't order Toxic while Taunt is in effect.
[17:05:12] <phoenix> whether birkal's move fails
[17:05:13] <Skyla> Let me go read handbook
[17:05:17] <phoenix> i mean
[17:05:21] <Texas> FMD did you look at the replay
[17:05:21] <phoenix> *fails or struggles
[17:05:23] <Texas> you literally cant
[17:05:42] <FMD> In-game or on PS?
[17:05:43] <phoenix> did you choice that hawlucha
[17:05:44] <phoenix> or smth
[17:05:49] <Texas> PS emulates in game soooo
[17:05:51] <phoenix> ps and in-game are copies
[17:05:53] <phoenix> >_<
[17:05:55] * Its_A_Random (its@random.vhost.i.guess) has joined
[17:05:55] * ChanServ sets mode +q on #capasb Its_A_Random
[17:05:55] * ChanServ gives channel operator status to Its_A_Random
[17:06:03] <ooraloo> how timely
[17:06:09] <FMD> PS is an attempt for it to work like in-game and is frequently wrong...
[17:06:22] <Its_A_Random> did I come on at a convenient time for ooraloo?
[17:06:26] <phoenix> no
[17:06:26] <FMD> Never go to PS for mechanics research. EVER.
[17:06:38] <Skyla> IAR perfect timing
[17:06:39] <ooraloo> not for me, for Birkal and Texas
[17:06:45] <phoenix> ps is good enough that
[17:06:46] <Its_A_Random> !asbmove gravity
[17:06:51] <Texas> Speaking as a former mod of PS
[17:06:56] <Texas> it is not in fact, frequently wrong
[17:07:03] <phoenix> it's not wrong on anything
[17:07:06] <Texas> and any errors are changed almost immediately
[17:07:08] <Its_A_Random> "The moves Bounce, Fly, High Jump Kick, Jump Kick, Magnet Rise, Sky Drop, and Splash fail when used."
[17:07:09] <phoenix> that isn't weird
[17:07:17] <Its_A_Random> fail when used =/= cannot be used
[17:07:23] <Its_A_Random> .log
[17:07:25] <Texas> [16:56:15] <Texas> I'm like 99.9999% sure that's just a typographical quirk
[17:07:25] <Texas> [16:56:37] <Texas> and it's technically accurate because boucne will fail if used ont he same action as gravity
[17:07:31] <Skyla> Thats what I read and used in my reref
[17:07:38] <phoenix> ugh
[17:07:47] <Skyla> !asbmove taunt
[17:07:53] <FMD> Yes, it kind of it. I have had to point out several errors in PS's mechanics in the past.
[17:07:57] <Texas> IAR you know as well as i do the random quirks that are presnet in NDA move descriptions
[17:08:19] <phoenix> it is frequently wrong about silly things
[17:08:25] <Skiddinner> phoenix stop worrying about this
[17:08:30] <Texas> The handbook is crystal clear
[17:08:30] <Skiddinner> And go finish the flashie
[17:08:31] <Skiddinner> <3
[17:08:35] <Its_A_Random> enough to tell the difference between fail and cannot be used :S
[17:08:41] <FMD> Something obscure that will never happen would probably go unnoticed and never fixed... like what happens when you order Bounce while Gravity is on.
[17:08:49] <Birkal> lol the handbook is not "crystal clear"
[17:08:59] <Texas> Bounce cannot be ordered under Gravity, cannot be ordered equals fail, fail equals struggle
[17:09:00] <Birkal> the line I presented is just as valid as yours
[17:09:18] <Texas> The line you presented has been accepted as valid precisely zero times
[17:09:19] <Texas> Ever
[17:09:29] <FMD> That is going by PS mechanics. Find out the actual mechanics.
[17:09:48] <Its_A_Random> but ehhh that's my two cents if you wanna suspend the match pending a policy investigation, be my guest
[17:10:11] <Texas> IAR the argument that Birkal is trying to make
[17:10:18] <Texas> is that because Hawlucha knows the move
[17:10:20] <Texas> It can order it
[17:10:37] <Texas> which is garbage, because then you could order toxic under taunt
[17:10:40] <Texas> all la-di-da
[17:11:05] <Birkal> they are in different sections of the handbook
[17:11:12] <Birkal> taunt and torment are specifically mentioned in a separate paragraph
[17:11:18] <Birkal> the one I'm referencing is about battle conditions
[17:11:27] <Birkal> and Gravity is a battle condition, not taunt / torment
[17:11:31] <Its_A_Random> I mean the game stops you from using toxic under taunt because it literally says you are only allowed to use attacking moves under taunt
[17:11:36] <Its_A_Random> @asbmove taunt
[17:11:39] <ASBot> Taunt - Dark | Other | Adjacent Target | -- BAP | 100% Acc | 10 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: No | 0 Prio | Combo Type: Passive | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: Yes
[17:11:39] <ASBot> The user taunts and sneers at the opponent, enraging the opponent and making them only capable of using damaging attacking moves (no commands, no chills) for the following six (6) actions. If a combination used while Taunted includes a non-attacking move, it may be used so long as the combination does damage. If the Pokemon is unable to witness the Taunt, like if it is asleep, the move fails; a Pokemon being ordered to look away ...
[17:11:39] <ASBot> ... does not make it fail.
[17:11:45] <Texas> IAR the game stops you from order Gravity under Bounce
[17:11:48] <Texas> it cannot be selected
[17:11:51] <Its_A_Random> oh it does
[17:11:54] <Texas> if it is the only option you will struggle
[17:12:00] <Texas> that is the point of the replay in the thread
[17:12:25] <Its_A_Random> I haven't actually read the thread hahaha
[17:12:35] <FMD> I wouldn't trust PS for quirky mechanics.
[17:12:42] <Its_A_Random> I've only just come onto this
[17:12:48] <Texas> holy fuck drop it fmd
[17:12:56] <Texas> its really not relevant
[17:13:03] * smashlloyd has quit (Client exited)
[17:13:04] <Birkal> yeah, agree with Texas, PS is reliable as an in-game simulator
[17:13:10] * smashlloyd (~androirc@8CF5FC10:66D4EA57:9CF7A542:IP) has joined
[17:13:12] <Skyla> Thirding that
[17:13:19] <Skyla> Aka im using that
[17:13:24] <Skyla> So texas wins
[17:13:28] <Its_A_Random> let me see if I can find something on YT
[17:13:31] <Its_A_Random> or idk
[17:13:37] <FMD> Not for anything as random as that that will never actually happen in a match.
[17:13:38] <Skyla> Oh i went to be bulbapedia
[17:13:38] <Birkal> then how do you answer the quote I bring up in handbook, skyla
[17:13:44] <Texas> as a matter of fact
[17:13:47] <Texas> fmd
[17:13:48] <Texas> doubles
[17:13:50] <Texas> gravity
[17:13:52] <Texas> sky drop
[17:13:56] <Texas> absolutely a thing
[17:13:58] <Its_A_Random> ... nope
[17:14:01] <Its_A_Random> thanks google
[17:14:35] <FMD> Seeing as Sky Drop is banned from use, how is that ever going to be used?
[17:15:08] <Texas> jesus christ will you accept nothing except looking at the in-game screen yourself
[17:15:12] <Skyla> Hmm Birkal im going with a gap in the handbook tbh
[17:15:19] <Birkal> wtf
[17:15:23] <Birkal> then why do we even have a handbook
[17:15:33] <phoenix> skyla imo don't ref until this is actually settled
[17:15:33] <Birkal> skyla if you have issue with this, bring it up in the mechanics thread
[17:15:33] <Skyla> Actually wait
[17:15:34] <phoenix> >_>
[17:15:36] <Texas> I have mountains of precedent
[17:15:38] <Texas> on my side
[17:15:41] <Texas> and a clear handbook ruling
[17:16:05] <Birkal> you insinuating that the handbook is clear is wrong
[17:16:08] <Skyla> Hmm this is something im not sure how to resolve at the time
[17:16:14] <Birkal> especially since the taunt section is entirely separate
[17:16:37] <phoenix> if this was clear
[17:16:40] <phoenix> it wouldn't be an argument
[17:17:00] <Birkal> post it in feedback, skyla
[17:17:04] <Birkal> shouldn't be your decision to make anyways
[17:17:08] <Skyla> Hmm yeah bringing up this issue in the feedback
[17:17:10] <Texas> I have in-game, ASB history, and a handbook passage
[17:17:11] <Birkal> because the handbook is borked
[17:17:16] <Texas> this should not be an argument
[17:17:22] <FMD> PS, not in-game.
[17:17:25] <Texas> fuck off
[17:17:31] <phoenix> FMD: drop it already
[17:17:42] <Birkal> FMD, go find some mechanic in game that PS missed
[17:17:48] <Skyla> PS is valid ingame simulation
[17:18:03] <Alakazam> from a quick google it seems like PS does do the same as ingame
[17:18:05] <phoenix> not past-tesnse missed current-tense missed
[17:18:05] <Birkal> because you won't
[17:18:06] <phoenix> >_>
[17:18:13] * Alakazam has quit (Quit: Alakazam used Teleport!)
[17:18:58] <Texas> Birkal I'm reading the passage verbatim, and your argument is relying on a veeery liberal interpretation of "conditions of the battle"
[17:19:09] <Texas> the specific examples they use are Using Sucker Punch on an opponent that uses Swords Dance, for example, or Toxic on a Pokemon under the effects of Safeguard
[17:19:18] <phoenix> the question is whether it prevents selection of the move or execution of the move
[17:19:21] <Texas> In both of these cases nothing is preventing the user from acting
[17:19:28] <Texas> under gravity, you literally can't select bounce
[17:19:34] <phoenix> asb and ingame are being contradictory for reasons likely having to do with lazy editing
[17:19:47] <Its_A_Random> I mean ps might have its fair share of random bugs but it does not automatically disqualify it as a valid source, especially when you have a programming team who are constantly refining it every day
[17:19:58] <Skyla> Give me about 25 minutes and ill have This one up in feedback
[17:20:11] <Texas> this really doesn't need feedback
[17:20:20] <Texas> everything that gets added supports my case
[17:20:45] <Texas> i'm counting multiple supporting bases for my position, and one liberal interpretation of the handbook for his
[17:21:06] <Its_A_Random> to say we should never trust it because of some obscure bug that does not affect anything is fallacious reasoning
[17:21:52] <Skyla> Hmm i think i have a firm spot where I stand on this argument
[17:22:21] <Its_A_Random> so anyone who wants to continue saying it isnt should just shut up wrt this argument
[17:22:56] <ooraloo> phoenix: ref the flash
[17:22:57] <ooraloo> and pike
[17:23:09] <Texas> I have a clear handbook about Pokemon being unable to select moves, ASB precendent of such moves always being reffed this way, and in-game procedure backing my point.
[17:23:29] <Texas> This easily outweighs a tenuous interpretation of another handbook line, that imo doesn't even apply by its own wording
[17:23:32] <smashlloyd> Oh geez what are we arguing about
[17:23:49] <Texas> This is as clear as an argument like this can get, as far as I'm concerned
[17:23:51] <Birkal> skyla just post about in in feedback
[17:23:57] * GeneralSpoon (~IceChat9@1AFD8E9:A3A08DF0:F5520D65:IP) has joined
[17:24:00] <Birkal> I don't have the time to argue it on IRC
[17:24:00] <Its_A_Random> any move that is affected by gravity vs. gravity smashlloyd
[17:24:14] <Texas> This does not need feedback
[17:24:17] <Texas> at all
[17:24:29] <Birkal> it does, stop bullying our ref into a choice
[17:24:33] <Birkal> what a lame way to win a match
[17:24:33] <Texas> all it needs is someone to say that the handbook passage is misleading birkal
[17:24:35] <phoenix> !roll20 1600
[17:24:36] <Texas> and the argument is gone
[17:24:49] <Texas> frankly birkal i thought your orders were lame, I was sure I hadn't left that vulnerability in my subs
[17:24:52] <Texas> turns out, I didn't
[17:25:00] <Birkal> then how would that be fair to me? the entire crux of my orders is based off of the handbook
[17:25:04] <Skyla> Ugh let me deliberate alone for a bit, get back to it, then i will have a decision
[17:25:08] <Birkal> if the handbook is wrong, how is that my fault as a battler
[17:25:37] <phoenix> Skyla: seriously post about it in feedback
[17:25:41] <Texas> I don't really care if you reorder or not, the entire point is that you should not be able to order two combos in a row, while also triggering my substitution on the first instance
[17:25:46] <phoenix> don't do <i get to make this decision>
[17:25:47] <Its_A_Random> okay
[17:25:55] <Its_A_Random> what sections of the handbook
[17:25:58] <Its_A_Random> are conflicting
[17:25:58] <phoenix> and if texas is right yes birkal should get a reorder
[17:26:09] <Texas> iar http://puu.sh/mJBr8/d67db4117b.png
[17:26:38] <Its_A_Random> i.e. Texas Birkal quote the part of the handbook you are thinking of that gives you the impression of one thing
[17:26:49] <Texas> first bullet vs second bullet
[17:26:57] <Texas> erm, subsection i guess
[17:27:04] <Skyla> Phoenix are you saying that I would have to go back to before the reffing of the previous round?
[17:27:06] <Birkal> Sometimes, a Pokemon will be perfectly capable of attempting a move, but the conditions of the battle will make the move fail. Using Sucker Punch on an opponent that uses Swords Dance, for example, or Toxic on a Pokemon under the effects of Safeguard. In such cases, the Pokemon expends the energy required for the move, but the move's effect does not occur.
[17:27:22] <Skyla> Because the battle literally ends if texas is right
[17:27:27] <phoenix> yes
[17:27:31] <Texas> wrt the sub triggering, that's the same thing as if someone ordered toxic under taunt and there was a sub for it, the sub cant trigger because taunt cant be used
[17:27:43] <phoenix> !asbmove teleport
[17:27:51] <Texas> i missed this looking at the round, now that it's been pointed out to me i will fight this tooth and nail because its blindingly clear to me
[17:28:03] <Texas> When a Pokemon is subject to a move like Taunt or Torment, the move prevents the Pokemon from selecting certain moves. If it tries to use any such prohibited moves on the action when they become prohibited, it fails but doesn't expend any energy. Any attempts on any other actions while the condition is in effect result in the Pokemon using Struggle.
[17:28:05] <phoenix> !roll20 1600
[17:28:08] <deadfox> its fine we can just now add "AND the move would not fail due to the current conditions" to every sub
[17:28:22] <Its_A_Random> lol deadfox
[17:28:44] <phoenix> does sucker punch+sucker punch not have a cooldown
[17:28:52] <phoenix> if the opponent doesn't use an attacking move
[17:28:58] <deadfox> ^
[17:29:05] <phoenix> because if it does
[17:29:19] * flashlloyd20 (~Lloyd@synIRC-665F2B60.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) has joined
[17:29:23] <phoenix> then regardless birk was cool a3
[17:29:26] <phoenix> *would
[17:29:35] <Texas> this isn't even just letter of the law, which it is, it's also spirit of the game
[17:29:36] <phoenix> and if it doesn't /why/
[17:30:02] <Texas> every piece of evidence mounts up to support me, vs a stretched and debatable interpretation of one line
[17:30:32] <Its_A_Random> uhhh the thing is birk, safeguard does not affect the whole field, nor does it affect the user of the move in question
[17:30:56] <phoenix> ooraloo Skiddinner rewardies up
[17:30:58] <Texas> as I said, in the examples given in that paragraph there is nothing inhibiting the user of those moves from acting
[17:31:11] <Texas> Gravity directly prevents the acting user from picking bounce
[17:31:16] <Its_A_Random> safeguard also
[17:31:18] * Skiddinner is now known as SubwayJ
[17:31:28] <Its_A_Random> does not make moves outright fail
[17:31:30] <ooraloo> phoenix: teleport evasive like
[17:31:31] <deadfox> you still hit a safeguarded mon with toxic, it just doesnt get positoned, you literally cannot bounve under gravity
[17:31:31] <ooraloo> exists
[17:31:31] <Its_A_Random> as in
[17:31:35] <phoenix> ooraloo: reread
[17:31:39] <Its_A_Random> the move works as normal
[17:31:40] <phoenix> sludge wave is not single target silly
[17:31:40] <deadfox> poisoned*
[17:31:47] <Its_A_Random> but the opponent is immune to it
[17:32:01] <Texas> "Sometimes, a Pokemon will be perfectly capable of attempting a move"
[17:32:05] <ooraloo> there is only 1 target
[17:32:12] <Its_A_Random> though
[17:32:13] <ooraloo> what else is it going to be?
[17:32:17] <Texas> you cannot order bounce under gravity, the pokemon is not perfectly capable, argument over
[17:32:22] <Its_A_Random> I see why he is complaining though
[17:32:24] <phoenix> the question isn't how many targets it has it's whether it's a single target move
[17:32:29] <Its_A_Random> because it literally says
[17:32:34] <SubwayJ> @asbmove Sludge Wave
[17:32:37] <ASBot> Sludge Wave - Poison | Special | All Adjacent Targets | 10 BAP | 100% Acc | 7 EN Cost | 10% Eff% | Contact: No | 0 Prio | Combo Type: Force | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: No
[17:32:37] <ASBot> The user shoots a wave of slime across the field at its opponent. The toxic slime may poison the target.
[17:32:40] <Texas> As I said, I don't care if he reorders, but that exploit should not have been possible to do
[17:32:42] <Its_A_Random> "but the conditions of the battle will make the move fail."
[17:32:56] <ooraloo> ok
[17:33:08] <ooraloo> now be a good phoenix and order in pike:D
[17:33:27] <SubwayJ> Or REF
[17:33:28] <SubwayJ> ASS
[17:33:44] <Texas> yes IAR, the liberty taken with interpreting that single line of text is what his whole argument is based on
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[17:33:50] <SubwayJ> Wait jk
[17:33:50] <Texas> vs everything else that's been raised
[17:33:53] <SubwayJ> I'm up in ASS
[17:33:53] <SubwayJ> lol
[17:34:18] * FMD (Mibbit@5313E82B.E05406A8.DBCFBE7F.IP) has joined
[17:34:19] <deadfox> subwayj im a little disappointed by your lct forfeit
[17:34:27] <Its_A_Random> yeah I cannot help but to feel that
[17:34:35] <Its_A_Random> it's a case of bad wording
[17:34:38] <Texas> imo what should happen
[17:34:40] <SubwayJ> I'm sorry deadfox I know I asked to sub in
[17:34:42] <Texas> is the match gets rewound
[17:34:45] <Texas> and birkal gets to reorder
[17:34:50] <Texas> something legal
[17:34:51] <SubwayJ> But TBH I assumed I would get to use my own team
[17:35:19] <deadfox> you understand my point that any team you make now may be unfairly influenced by knowing what everyone else is using though?
[17:35:20] <SubwayJ> And honestly Gold's logic with this team is terrible imo
[17:35:53] <phoenix> ffs SubwayJ
[17:35:56] <Texas> IAR, do you agree that there should be no scenario where you can order a combo on two successive actions and have the first combo trigger a sub
[17:36:00] <phoenix> i told you you were up in sim already
[17:36:10] <Texas> assuming in the same round
[17:36:17] <SubwayJ> I know, but there are several other instances (DYAE, LLAMA) where people were allowed to create teams after subbing
[17:36:20] <Texas> b/c idk the implications of multi round interactions
[17:36:30] <SubwayJ> IMO It's really hard to counter team an entire tournament of pokemon
[17:36:38] <FortClasses> deadfox: how is subsy supposed to counter-teaam 36 teams
[17:36:43] <SubwayJ> But I still get what you mean deadfox
[17:36:43] <Texas> actually I don't agree with that
[17:36:45] <Texas> nvm
[17:36:48] <ooraloo> phoenix: can we finish my pike today. I want to be able to purchase moves for togekiss to prepare for dark gym
[17:36:55] <Texas> but the principle stands
[17:36:56] <FortClasses> its not like irc wasnt discussing lct teams and whats good and bad 18 hours a day deadfox
[17:36:57] <phoenix> well i mean
[17:36:58] <ooraloo> it shouldn't take long
[17:37:00] <Its_A_Random> [09:36:19] SubwayJ I know, but there are several other instances (DYAE, LLAMA) where people were allowed to create teams after subbing
[17:37:04] <phoenix> combo that triggers sub - cooldown(repeat combo)
[17:37:10] <Its_A_Random> llama pooled players as well >_>
[17:37:16] <Its_A_Random> uhhh
[17:37:18] <Mamo> Should I max sableye?
[17:37:27] <phoenix> would trigger subs the first action
[17:37:29] <phoenix> n
[17:37:31] <phoenix> you should get
[17:37:33] <phoenix> a better fe team first
[17:37:41] <phoenix> try to get all of your current mons
[17:37:46] <Texas> phoenix i'm assuming that cool down doesnt count for the purposes of "using a combo"
[17:37:49] <phoenix> evolved and to ~35 moves
[17:38:04] <phoenix> before you try maxxing sableye
[17:38:10] <Mamo> bc it was either pour all the UC I'll get soon into sab, or get some evos and HAs unlocked
[17:38:12] <Texas> i retracted because there could be things where like, i gravity as a sub response preventing the first combo
[17:38:18] <Texas> but i'm talking two successful combos
[17:38:20] <phoenix> Mamo: get evos and HAs unlocked
[17:38:23] <phoenix> or dumped into movepools
[17:38:28] <phoenix> their shouldn't ever /be/
[17:38:31] <Texas> and if we assume birks first combo was not succcessful, then the sub shouldnt trigger
[17:38:34] <phoenix> two consecutive successful comboes
[17:38:36] <Texas> regardless
[17:38:52] <Texas> i dont think anyone can argue with that logic
[17:39:12] <SubwayJ> !asbmove Solar Beam
[17:39:21] <Texas> Its_A_Random read and agree/disagree imo
[17:39:51] * ducky_momo (Mibbit@135A52F5.F31F0AC6.240A65C0.IP) has joined
[17:40:23] <ducky_momo> Boys and girls.
[17:40:44] <phoenix> heyas
[17:41:02] <Texas> Skyla fyi my position is that the match should be rewound and birkal given the opportunity to order something legal
[17:41:04] <phoenix> !roll20 1600
[17:41:31] <Texas> Birkal i'll highlight you too, i agree it would be pretty retarded to end the match based on a flawed interpretation
[17:41:35] * flashlloyd20 is now known as dramalloyd20
[17:41:45] <Birkal> I'm fine with a reorder
[17:41:50] <Birkal> but I'd like handbook to be fixed
[17:42:03] <Birkal> I'm fine with you changing your orders too if you want, texas
[17:42:22] <SubwayJ> phoenix ordered now jsyk ahaha
[17:42:25] <FortClasses> dogfish44: have you sent in?
[17:42:38] <FortClasses> bring emolga the "ezmon" y/y
[17:43:17] <Texas> I don't want to change my orders
[17:43:27] * deadfox has quit (Quit: OUCH!!!)
[17:43:31] <Texas> I was sure when i made them that they had covered my bases
[17:43:43] <Texas> Nothing has changed that perception, after this discussion
[17:44:15] <Texas> Skyla where'd you go you should be
[16:51:59] <Texas> turns out i actually win fighting gym
[16:52:02] <Mamo> I should take a tlr
[16:52:04] <Texas> dogfish44 you need to be present
[16:52:24] <Skyla> Omg i was right?
[16:52:30] <ooraloo> no
[16:52:31] <Mamo> !asbstats phoine
[16:52:32] <phoenix> no
[16:52:32] <ooraloo> it's struggle
[16:52:34] <phoenix> >_>
[16:52:38] <Mamo> !asbstats phione
[16:52:50] <Texas> no we were all wrong
[16:52:50] <Skyla> Struggle?
[16:53:02] <Texas> is what it should be
[16:53:11] <Mamo> gdi phione, ywhy you got to have just over the +2 ranks BRT for everstone
[16:53:11] <SubwayJ> Skyla you can't give fort tpf, you gotta take all the other challs in the queue first ;)
[16:53:20] <Skyla> Oh yeah
[16:53:22] <Texas> i guess i should highlight birkal too
[16:53:28] <phoenix> FortClasses: go specify the tlr
[16:53:45] <Texas> apologies birkal, I was just made aware of this and it would be foolish not to point it out
[16:53:56] <SubwayJ> !asbmove Teleport
[16:54:04] <Skyla> Umm Texas check the asb description
[16:54:26] <phoenix> !asbmove gravity
[16:54:27] <phoenix> !asbmove bounce
[16:54:43] <Skyla> It says fail
[16:54:45] <Skyla> Not struggle
[16:54:57] <Texas> http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-texas-cloverleaf.3556700/page-2#post-6638021
[16:55:09] <Skyla> Im reading that
[16:55:18] <Alakazam> @asbmove bounce
[16:55:21] <ASBot> Bounce - Flying | Physical | Any Single Target | Formula BAP | 85% Acc | Formula EN Cost | 30% Eff% | Contact: Yes | 0 and -1 Prio | Combo Type: Force | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: No
[16:55:21] <ASBot> The user leaps above an incoming attack and crashes down on the opponent with immense force that may paraly e. The user leaps at Priority 0 and strikes at Priority -1. While between these phases, the user of Bounce avoids most attacks. Gust, Hurricane, Sky Uppercut, Smack Down, Thunder, Twister, and Whirlwind ignore Bounce's evasive properties. Being struck by Smack Down and Gravity will cancel Bounce; the Bounce user will take ...
[16:55:21] <ASBot> ... falling damage equal to twice their own Weight Class, plus 4. Being struck by Gust, Twister, and Whirlwind will cause Bounce to automatically miss, but will not result in falling damage.
[16:55:23] <ASBot> BAP Formula: 7 + (User Weight Class / 2.5). Round up.
[16:55:23] * Toon (Mibbit@synIRC-DF86A130.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) has joined
[16:55:25] <ASBot> Energy Cost Formula: 9 + (User Weight Class / 3).
[16:55:26] <Skyla> But ive been told that asb desc supercedes ingame
[16:55:36] <phoenix> the description of bounce
[16:55:39] <phoenix> has nothing to do with it
[16:55:44] <Texas> well considering how vague you were, i have no idea what you're referring to
[16:55:44] <phoenix> it's the desc of gravity
[16:55:49] <Alakazam> @asbmove gravity
[16:55:51] <ASBot> Gravity - Psychic | Other | Entire Battle | -- BAP | -- Acc | 10 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: N/A | 0 Prio | Combo Type: Passive | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: No
[16:55:51] <ASBot> The user greatly increases the gravity in the arena for four (4) rounds. Immunities to any Ground-type moves are nullified for the duration. The moves Bounce, Fly, High Jump Kick, Jump Kick, Magnet Rise, Sky Drop, and Splash fail when used. Furthermore, all Pokemon suffer an Evasion drop, increasing the relative accuracy of attacks by 67% (x1.67). If Gravity is used again, the effect is nullified.
[16:56:04] <Skyla> Its the third sentence
[16:56:14] <Alakazam> i can read
[16:56:15] <Texas> I'm like 99.9999% sure that's just a typographical quirk
[16:56:17] <Alakazam> thank you very much
[16:56:29] <deadfox> there is no asb mechanic for "fail"
[16:56:37] <phoenix> also
[16:56:37] <Texas> and it's technically accurate because boucne will fail if used ont he same action as gravity
[16:56:42] <phoenix> what part of the combo description
[16:56:45] <deadfox> "fail" = illegal order = do nothing if it was caused on that action else struggle
[16:56:49] <Texas> the handbook has clear ruling for using an illegal order
[16:56:54] <phoenix> says the combo has to be performed sucessfully anyway
[16:56:54] <Texas> and bounce literally cant be ordered in game
[16:56:55] <Skyla> Kk them struggle
[16:56:57] <Texas> making it illegal
[16:56:59] <Skyla> And gg
[16:57:31] * SubwayJ is now known as Skiddinner
[16:57:49] <Skyla> K so texas can you revert my reffing to its original post
[16:58:02] <Skyla> Then I'll go edit some things to make it work
[16:58:15] <Texas> i'd rather you repost it for posterity, but i can copy the raw log for you
[16:58:38] <Skyla> That works
[16:58:47] <Skyla> I just need to get the original
[16:59:04] <Texas> this is the history entry
[16:59:13] <Texas> so it includes the changed text
[16:59:16] <Texas> you'll have to parse that out
[16:59:16] <Texas> http://pastebin.com/HhkFQMmK
[16:59:23] <Skyla> Kk
[17:01:46] <Birkal> not yet
[17:02:22] <Birkal> "Sometimes, a Pokemon will be perfectly capable of attempting a move, but the conditions of the battle will make the move fail. Using Sucker Punch on an opponent that uses Swords Dance, for example, or Toxic on a Pokemon under the effects of Safeguard. In such cases, the Pokemon expends the energy required for the move, but the move's effect does not occur."
[17:02:35] <Texas> That is not the case here
[17:02:43] <Texas> Hawlucha is not capable of attempting the move
[17:02:50] <Birkal> yes it is, it knows them
[17:02:53] <phoenix> also if it /was/ capable of failing
[17:02:55] <Birkal> the conditions of the battle make the move fail
[17:02:58] <Texas> As the replay shows, attempting to Bounce under Gravity is struggle
[17:03:00] <Birkal> (gravity)
[17:03:03] <Texas> aka, cannot be ordered
[17:03:09] <deadfox> hawlucha would also be capable of using tocis while taunted, since it knows the move
[17:03:10] <Texas> aka is not capable of orderinh
[17:03:11] <Birkal> you know that PS can't be used for something like this
[17:03:14] <deadfox> toxic*
[17:03:17] <Birkal> competitive mons doesn't use combos >__>
[17:03:24] <Texas> Birkal that argument is horseshit and you know it
[17:03:35] <Birkal> nah
[17:03:37] <Skyla> Hmm
[17:03:41] <Birkal> we break in game all the time
[17:03:51] <Birkal> the issue is that handbook conflicts itself
[17:03:51] <Texas> Not once in the history of ASB has a mon not Struggled when it should, based on that
[17:03:52] <Texas> Not once.
[17:04:05] <Texas> by that line, there should never be struggle
[17:04:08] <Texas> only fails
[17:04:21] <Birkal> nah, because that's for taunt / torment / etc
[17:04:25] <Birkal> which is also listed in the handbook
[17:04:25] <Skyla> Hmm i believe texas is correct here
[17:04:27] <Texas> It's for illegal moves
[17:04:27] <Birkal> but not the case here
[17:04:32] <phoenix> imo wait
[17:04:33] <Texas> Which Bounce is, under Gravity
[17:04:35] <phoenix> until this settles skyla
[17:04:41] <Texas> just as non-damaging are, under Taunt
[17:04:49] <Birkal> no, they're different
[17:04:56] <Birkal> if you read the handbook, there are different sections for both
[17:05:04] <Skyla> Wait i got it
[17:05:06] <phoenix> what does comboes
[17:05:08] <phoenix> have to do with
[17:05:09] <FMD> You can still order Fly while Gravity is in effect, but you can't order Toxic while Taunt is in effect.
[17:05:12] <phoenix> whether birkal's move fails
[17:05:13] <Skyla> Let me go read handbook
[17:05:17] <phoenix> i mean
[17:05:21] <Texas> FMD did you look at the replay
[17:05:21] <phoenix> *fails or struggles
[17:05:23] <Texas> you literally cant
[17:05:42] <FMD> In-game or on PS?
[17:05:43] <phoenix> did you choice that hawlucha
[17:05:44] <phoenix> or smth
[17:05:49] <Texas> PS emulates in game soooo
[17:05:51] <phoenix> ps and in-game are copies
[17:05:53] <phoenix> >_<
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[17:05:55] * ChanServ sets mode +q on #capasb Its_A_Random
[17:05:55] * ChanServ gives channel operator status to Its_A_Random
[17:06:03] <ooraloo> how timely
[17:06:09] <FMD> PS is an attempt for it to work like in-game and is frequently wrong...
[17:06:22] <Its_A_Random> did I come on at a convenient time for ooraloo?
[17:06:26] <phoenix> no
[17:06:26] <FMD> Never go to PS for mechanics research. EVER.
[17:06:38] <Skyla> IAR perfect timing
[17:06:39] <ooraloo> not for me, for Birkal and Texas
[17:06:45] <phoenix> ps is good enough that
[17:06:46] <Its_A_Random> !asbmove gravity
[17:06:51] <Texas> Speaking as a former mod of PS
[17:06:56] <Texas> it is not in fact, frequently wrong
[17:07:03] <phoenix> it's not wrong on anything
[17:07:06] <Texas> and any errors are changed almost immediately
[17:07:08] <Its_A_Random> "The moves Bounce, Fly, High Jump Kick, Jump Kick, Magnet Rise, Sky Drop, and Splash fail when used."
[17:07:09] <phoenix> that isn't weird
[17:07:17] <Its_A_Random> fail when used =/= cannot be used
[17:07:23] <Its_A_Random> .log
[17:07:25] <Texas> [16:56:15] <Texas> I'm like 99.9999% sure that's just a typographical quirk
[17:07:25] <Texas> [16:56:37] <Texas> and it's technically accurate because boucne will fail if used ont he same action as gravity
[17:07:31] <Skyla> Thats what I read and used in my reref
[17:07:38] <phoenix> ugh
[17:07:47] <Skyla> !asbmove taunt
[17:07:53] <FMD> Yes, it kind of it. I have had to point out several errors in PS's mechanics in the past.
[17:07:57] <Texas> IAR you know as well as i do the random quirks that are presnet in NDA move descriptions
[17:08:19] <phoenix> it is frequently wrong about silly things
[17:08:25] <Skiddinner> phoenix stop worrying about this
[17:08:30] <Texas> The handbook is crystal clear
[17:08:30] <Skiddinner> And go finish the flashie
[17:08:31] <Skiddinner> <3
[17:08:35] <Its_A_Random> enough to tell the difference between fail and cannot be used :S
[17:08:41] <FMD> Something obscure that will never happen would probably go unnoticed and never fixed... like what happens when you order Bounce while Gravity is on.
[17:08:49] <Birkal> lol the handbook is not "crystal clear"
[17:08:59] <Texas> Bounce cannot be ordered under Gravity, cannot be ordered equals fail, fail equals struggle
[17:09:00] <Birkal> the line I presented is just as valid as yours
[17:09:18] <Texas> The line you presented has been accepted as valid precisely zero times
[17:09:19] <Texas> Ever
[17:09:29] <FMD> That is going by PS mechanics. Find out the actual mechanics.
[17:09:48] <Its_A_Random> but ehhh that's my two cents if you wanna suspend the match pending a policy investigation, be my guest
[17:10:11] <Texas> IAR the argument that Birkal is trying to make
[17:10:18] <Texas> is that because Hawlucha knows the move
[17:10:20] <Texas> It can order it
[17:10:37] <Texas> which is garbage, because then you could order toxic under taunt
[17:10:40] <Texas> all la-di-da
[17:11:05] <Birkal> they are in different sections of the handbook
[17:11:12] <Birkal> taunt and torment are specifically mentioned in a separate paragraph
[17:11:18] <Birkal> the one I'm referencing is about battle conditions
[17:11:27] <Birkal> and Gravity is a battle condition, not taunt / torment
[17:11:31] <Its_A_Random> I mean the game stops you from using toxic under taunt because it literally says you are only allowed to use attacking moves under taunt
[17:11:36] <Its_A_Random> @asbmove taunt
[17:11:39] <ASBot> Taunt - Dark | Other | Adjacent Target | -- BAP | 100% Acc | 10 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: No | 0 Prio | Combo Type: Passive | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: Yes
[17:11:39] <ASBot> The user taunts and sneers at the opponent, enraging the opponent and making them only capable of using damaging attacking moves (no commands, no chills) for the following six (6) actions. If a combination used while Taunted includes a non-attacking move, it may be used so long as the combination does damage. If the Pokemon is unable to witness the Taunt, like if it is asleep, the move fails; a Pokemon being ordered to look away ...
[17:11:39] <ASBot> ... does not make it fail.
[17:11:45] <Texas> IAR the game stops you from order Gravity under Bounce
[17:11:48] <Texas> it cannot be selected
[17:11:51] <Its_A_Random> oh it does
[17:11:54] <Texas> if it is the only option you will struggle
[17:12:00] <Texas> that is the point of the replay in the thread
[17:12:25] <Its_A_Random> I haven't actually read the thread hahaha
[17:12:35] <FMD> I wouldn't trust PS for quirky mechanics.
[17:12:42] <Its_A_Random> I've only just come onto this
[17:12:48] <Texas> holy fuck drop it fmd
[17:12:56] <Texas> its really not relevant
[17:13:03] * smashlloyd has quit (Client exited)
[17:13:04] <Birkal> yeah, agree with Texas, PS is reliable as an in-game simulator
[17:13:10] * smashlloyd (~androirc@8CF5FC10:66D4EA57:9CF7A542:IP) has joined
[17:13:12] <Skyla> Thirding that
[17:13:19] <Skyla> Aka im using that
[17:13:24] <Skyla> So texas wins
[17:13:28] <Its_A_Random> let me see if I can find something on YT
[17:13:31] <Its_A_Random> or idk
[17:13:37] <FMD> Not for anything as random as that that will never actually happen in a match.
[17:13:38] <Skyla> Oh i went to be bulbapedia
[17:13:38] <Birkal> then how do you answer the quote I bring up in handbook, skyla
[17:13:44] <Texas> as a matter of fact
[17:13:47] <Texas> fmd
[17:13:48] <Texas> doubles
[17:13:50] <Texas> gravity
[17:13:52] <Texas> sky drop
[17:13:56] <Texas> absolutely a thing
[17:13:58] <Its_A_Random> ... nope
[17:14:01] <Its_A_Random> thanks google
[17:14:35] <FMD> Seeing as Sky Drop is banned from use, how is that ever going to be used?
[17:15:08] <Texas> jesus christ will you accept nothing except looking at the in-game screen yourself
[17:15:12] <Skyla> Hmm Birkal im going with a gap in the handbook tbh
[17:15:19] <Birkal> wtf
[17:15:23] <Birkal> then why do we even have a handbook
[17:15:33] <phoenix> skyla imo don't ref until this is actually settled
[17:15:33] <Birkal> skyla if you have issue with this, bring it up in the mechanics thread
[17:15:33] <Skyla> Actually wait
[17:15:34] <phoenix> >_>
[17:15:36] <Texas> I have mountains of precedent
[17:15:38] <Texas> on my side
[17:15:41] <Texas> and a clear handbook ruling
[17:16:05] <Birkal> you insinuating that the handbook is clear is wrong
[17:16:08] <Skyla> Hmm this is something im not sure how to resolve at the time
[17:16:14] <Birkal> especially since the taunt section is entirely separate
[17:16:37] <phoenix> if this was clear
[17:16:40] <phoenix> it wouldn't be an argument
[17:17:00] <Birkal> post it in feedback, skyla
[17:17:04] <Birkal> shouldn't be your decision to make anyways
[17:17:08] <Skyla> Hmm yeah bringing up this issue in the feedback
[17:17:10] <Texas> I have in-game, ASB history, and a handbook passage
[17:17:11] <Birkal> because the handbook is borked
[17:17:16] <Texas> this should not be an argument
[17:17:22] <FMD> PS, not in-game.
[17:17:25] <Texas> fuck off
[17:17:31] <phoenix> FMD: drop it already
[17:17:42] <Birkal> FMD, go find some mechanic in game that PS missed
[17:17:48] <Skyla> PS is valid ingame simulation
[17:18:03] <Alakazam> from a quick google it seems like PS does do the same as ingame
[17:18:05] <phoenix> not past-tesnse missed current-tense missed
[17:18:05] <Birkal> because you won't
[17:18:06] <phoenix> >_>
[17:18:13] * Alakazam has quit (Quit: Alakazam used Teleport!)
[17:18:58] <Texas> Birkal I'm reading the passage verbatim, and your argument is relying on a veeery liberal interpretation of "conditions of the battle"
[17:19:09] <Texas> the specific examples they use are Using Sucker Punch on an opponent that uses Swords Dance, for example, or Toxic on a Pokemon under the effects of Safeguard
[17:19:18] <phoenix> the question is whether it prevents selection of the move or execution of the move
[17:19:21] <Texas> In both of these cases nothing is preventing the user from acting
[17:19:28] <Texas> under gravity, you literally can't select bounce
[17:19:34] <phoenix> asb and ingame are being contradictory for reasons likely having to do with lazy editing
[17:19:47] <Its_A_Random> I mean ps might have its fair share of random bugs but it does not automatically disqualify it as a valid source, especially when you have a programming team who are constantly refining it every day
[17:19:58] <Skyla> Give me about 25 minutes and ill have This one up in feedback
[17:20:11] <Texas> this really doesn't need feedback
[17:20:20] <Texas> everything that gets added supports my case
[17:20:45] <Texas> i'm counting multiple supporting bases for my position, and one liberal interpretation of the handbook for his
[17:21:06] <Its_A_Random> to say we should never trust it because of some obscure bug that does not affect anything is fallacious reasoning
[17:21:52] <Skyla> Hmm i think i have a firm spot where I stand on this argument
[17:22:21] <Its_A_Random> so anyone who wants to continue saying it isnt should just shut up wrt this argument
[17:22:56] <ooraloo> phoenix: ref the flash
[17:22:57] <ooraloo> and pike
[17:23:09] <Texas> I have a clear handbook about Pokemon being unable to select moves, ASB precendent of such moves always being reffed this way, and in-game procedure backing my point.
[17:23:29] <Texas> This easily outweighs a tenuous interpretation of another handbook line, that imo doesn't even apply by its own wording
[17:23:32] <smashlloyd> Oh geez what are we arguing about
[17:23:49] <Texas> This is as clear as an argument like this can get, as far as I'm concerned
[17:23:51] <Birkal> skyla just post about in in feedback
[17:23:57] * GeneralSpoon (~IceChat9@1AFD8E9:A3A08DF0:F5520D65:IP) has joined
[17:24:00] <Birkal> I don't have the time to argue it on IRC
[17:24:00] <Its_A_Random> any move that is affected by gravity vs. gravity smashlloyd
[17:24:14] <Texas> This does not need feedback
[17:24:17] <Texas> at all
[17:24:29] <Birkal> it does, stop bullying our ref into a choice
[17:24:33] <Birkal> what a lame way to win a match
[17:24:33] <Texas> all it needs is someone to say that the handbook passage is misleading birkal
[17:24:35] <phoenix> !roll20 1600
[17:24:36] <Texas> and the argument is gone
[17:24:49] <Texas> frankly birkal i thought your orders were lame, I was sure I hadn't left that vulnerability in my subs
[17:24:52] <Texas> turns out, I didn't
[17:25:00] <Birkal> then how would that be fair to me? the entire crux of my orders is based off of the handbook
[17:25:04] <Skyla> Ugh let me deliberate alone for a bit, get back to it, then i will have a decision
[17:25:08] <Birkal> if the handbook is wrong, how is that my fault as a battler
[17:25:37] <phoenix> Skyla: seriously post about it in feedback
[17:25:41] <Texas> I don't really care if you reorder or not, the entire point is that you should not be able to order two combos in a row, while also triggering my substitution on the first instance
[17:25:46] <phoenix> don't do <i get to make this decision>
[17:25:47] <Its_A_Random> okay
[17:25:55] <Its_A_Random> what sections of the handbook
[17:25:58] <Its_A_Random> are conflicting
[17:25:58] <phoenix> and if texas is right yes birkal should get a reorder
[17:26:09] <Texas> iar http://puu.sh/mJBr8/d67db4117b.png
[17:26:38] <Its_A_Random> i.e. Texas Birkal quote the part of the handbook you are thinking of that gives you the impression of one thing
[17:26:49] <Texas> first bullet vs second bullet
[17:26:57] <Texas> erm, subsection i guess
[17:27:04] <Skyla> Phoenix are you saying that I would have to go back to before the reffing of the previous round?
[17:27:06] <Birkal> Sometimes, a Pokemon will be perfectly capable of attempting a move, but the conditions of the battle will make the move fail. Using Sucker Punch on an opponent that uses Swords Dance, for example, or Toxic on a Pokemon under the effects of Safeguard. In such cases, the Pokemon expends the energy required for the move, but the move's effect does not occur.
[17:27:22] <Skyla> Because the battle literally ends if texas is right
[17:27:27] <phoenix> yes
[17:27:31] <Texas> wrt the sub triggering, that's the same thing as if someone ordered toxic under taunt and there was a sub for it, the sub cant trigger because taunt cant be used
[17:27:43] <phoenix> !asbmove teleport
[17:27:51] <Texas> i missed this looking at the round, now that it's been pointed out to me i will fight this tooth and nail because its blindingly clear to me
[17:28:03] <Texas> When a Pokemon is subject to a move like Taunt or Torment, the move prevents the Pokemon from selecting certain moves. If it tries to use any such prohibited moves on the action when they become prohibited, it fails but doesn't expend any energy. Any attempts on any other actions while the condition is in effect result in the Pokemon using Struggle.
[17:28:05] <phoenix> !roll20 1600
[17:28:08] <deadfox> its fine we can just now add "AND the move would not fail due to the current conditions" to every sub
[17:28:22] <Its_A_Random> lol deadfox
[17:28:44] <phoenix> does sucker punch+sucker punch not have a cooldown
[17:28:52] <phoenix> if the opponent doesn't use an attacking move
[17:28:58] <deadfox> ^
[17:29:05] <phoenix> because if it does
[17:29:19] * flashlloyd20 (~Lloyd@synIRC-665F2B60.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) has joined
[17:29:23] <phoenix> then regardless birk was cool a3
[17:29:26] <phoenix> *would
[17:29:35] <Texas> this isn't even just letter of the law, which it is, it's also spirit of the game
[17:29:36] <phoenix> and if it doesn't /why/
[17:30:02] <Texas> every piece of evidence mounts up to support me, vs a stretched and debatable interpretation of one line
[17:30:32] <Its_A_Random> uhhh the thing is birk, safeguard does not affect the whole field, nor does it affect the user of the move in question
[17:30:56] <phoenix> ooraloo Skiddinner rewardies up
[17:30:58] <Texas> as I said, in the examples given in that paragraph there is nothing inhibiting the user of those moves from acting
[17:31:11] <Texas> Gravity directly prevents the acting user from picking bounce
[17:31:16] <Its_A_Random> safeguard also
[17:31:18] * Skiddinner is now known as SubwayJ
[17:31:28] <Its_A_Random> does not make moves outright fail
[17:31:30] <ooraloo> phoenix: teleport evasive like
[17:31:31] <deadfox> you still hit a safeguarded mon with toxic, it just doesnt get positoned, you literally cannot bounve under gravity
[17:31:31] <ooraloo> exists
[17:31:31] <Its_A_Random> as in
[17:31:35] <phoenix> ooraloo: reread
[17:31:39] <Its_A_Random> the move works as normal
[17:31:40] <phoenix> sludge wave is not single target silly
[17:31:40] <deadfox> poisoned*
[17:31:47] <Its_A_Random> but the opponent is immune to it
[17:32:01] <Texas> "Sometimes, a Pokemon will be perfectly capable of attempting a move"
[17:32:05] <ooraloo> there is only 1 target
[17:32:12] <Its_A_Random> though
[17:32:13] <ooraloo> what else is it going to be?
[17:32:17] <Texas> you cannot order bounce under gravity, the pokemon is not perfectly capable, argument over
[17:32:22] <Its_A_Random> I see why he is complaining though
[17:32:24] <phoenix> the question isn't how many targets it has it's whether it's a single target move
[17:32:29] <Its_A_Random> because it literally says
[17:32:34] <SubwayJ> @asbmove Sludge Wave
[17:32:37] <ASBot> Sludge Wave - Poison | Special | All Adjacent Targets | 10 BAP | 100% Acc | 7 EN Cost | 10% Eff% | Contact: No | 0 Prio | Combo Type: Force | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: No
[17:32:37] <ASBot> The user shoots a wave of slime across the field at its opponent. The toxic slime may poison the target.
[17:32:40] <Texas> As I said, I don't care if he reorders, but that exploit should not have been possible to do
[17:32:42] <Its_A_Random> "but the conditions of the battle will make the move fail."
[17:32:56] <ooraloo> ok
[17:33:08] <ooraloo> now be a good phoenix and order in pike:D
[17:33:27] <SubwayJ> Or REF
[17:33:28] <SubwayJ> ASS
[17:33:44] <Texas> yes IAR, the liberty taken with interpreting that single line of text is what his whole argument is based on
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[17:33:50] <SubwayJ> Wait jk
[17:33:50] <Texas> vs everything else that's been raised
[17:33:53] <SubwayJ> I'm up in ASS
[17:33:53] <SubwayJ> lol
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[17:34:19] <deadfox> subwayj im a little disappointed by your lct forfeit
[17:34:27] <Its_A_Random> yeah I cannot help but to feel that
[17:34:35] <Its_A_Random> it's a case of bad wording
[17:34:38] <Texas> imo what should happen
[17:34:40] <SubwayJ> I'm sorry deadfox I know I asked to sub in
[17:34:42] <Texas> is the match gets rewound
[17:34:45] <Texas> and birkal gets to reorder
[17:34:50] <Texas> something legal
[17:34:51] <SubwayJ> But TBH I assumed I would get to use my own team
[17:35:19] <deadfox> you understand my point that any team you make now may be unfairly influenced by knowing what everyone else is using though?
[17:35:20] <SubwayJ> And honestly Gold's logic with this team is terrible imo
[17:35:53] <phoenix> ffs SubwayJ
[17:35:56] <Texas> IAR, do you agree that there should be no scenario where you can order a combo on two successive actions and have the first combo trigger a sub
[17:36:00] <phoenix> i told you you were up in sim already
[17:36:10] <Texas> assuming in the same round
[17:36:17] <SubwayJ> I know, but there are several other instances (DYAE, LLAMA) where people were allowed to create teams after subbing
[17:36:20] <Texas> b/c idk the implications of multi round interactions
[17:36:30] <SubwayJ> IMO It's really hard to counter team an entire tournament of pokemon
[17:36:38] <FortClasses> deadfox: how is subsy supposed to counter-teaam 36 teams
[17:36:43] <SubwayJ> But I still get what you mean deadfox
[17:36:43] <Texas> actually I don't agree with that
[17:36:45] <Texas> nvm
[17:36:48] <ooraloo> phoenix: can we finish my pike today. I want to be able to purchase moves for togekiss to prepare for dark gym
[17:36:55] <Texas> but the principle stands
[17:36:56] <FortClasses> its not like irc wasnt discussing lct teams and whats good and bad 18 hours a day deadfox
[17:36:57] <phoenix> well i mean
[17:36:58] <ooraloo> it shouldn't take long
[17:37:00] <Its_A_Random> [09:36:19] SubwayJ I know, but there are several other instances (DYAE, LLAMA) where people were allowed to create teams after subbing
[17:37:04] <phoenix> combo that triggers sub - cooldown(repeat combo)
[17:37:10] <Its_A_Random> llama pooled players as well >_>
[17:37:16] <Its_A_Random> uhhh
[17:37:18] <Mamo> Should I max sableye?
[17:37:27] <phoenix> would trigger subs the first action
[17:37:29] <phoenix> n
[17:37:31] <phoenix> you should get
[17:37:33] <phoenix> a better fe team first
[17:37:41] <phoenix> try to get all of your current mons
[17:37:46] <Texas> phoenix i'm assuming that cool down doesnt count for the purposes of "using a combo"
[17:37:49] <phoenix> evolved and to ~35 moves
[17:38:04] <phoenix> before you try maxxing sableye
[17:38:10] <Mamo> bc it was either pour all the UC I'll get soon into sab, or get some evos and HAs unlocked
[17:38:12] <Texas> i retracted because there could be things where like, i gravity as a sub response preventing the first combo
[17:38:18] <Texas> but i'm talking two successful combos
[17:38:20] <phoenix> Mamo: get evos and HAs unlocked
[17:38:23] <phoenix> or dumped into movepools
[17:38:28] <phoenix> their shouldn't ever /be/
[17:38:31] <Texas> and if we assume birks first combo was not succcessful, then the sub shouldnt trigger
[17:38:34] <phoenix> two consecutive successful comboes
[17:38:36] <Texas> regardless
[17:38:52] <Texas> i dont think anyone can argue with that logic
[17:39:12] <SubwayJ> !asbmove Solar Beam
[17:39:21] <Texas> Its_A_Random read and agree/disagree imo
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[17:40:23] <ducky_momo> Boys and girls.
[17:40:44] <phoenix> heyas
[17:41:02] <Texas> Skyla fyi my position is that the match should be rewound and birkal given the opportunity to order something legal
[17:41:04] <phoenix> !roll20 1600
[17:41:31] <Texas> Birkal i'll highlight you too, i agree it would be pretty retarded to end the match based on a flawed interpretation
[17:41:35] * flashlloyd20 is now known as dramalloyd20
[17:41:45] <Birkal> I'm fine with a reorder
[17:41:50] <Birkal> but I'd like handbook to be fixed
[17:42:03] <Birkal> I'm fine with you changing your orders too if you want, texas
[17:42:22] <SubwayJ> phoenix ordered now jsyk ahaha
[17:42:25] <FortClasses> dogfish44: have you sent in?
[17:42:38] <FortClasses> bring emolga the "ezmon" y/y
[17:43:17] <Texas> I don't want to change my orders
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[17:43:31] <Texas> I was sure when i made them that they had covered my bases
[17:43:43] <Texas> Nothing has changed that perception, after this discussion
[17:44:15] <Texas> Skyla where'd you go you should be
Result of that argument imo establishes the validity of my previous post. That being said, the cause was a wonky line in the handbook that misled Birkal. Therefore:
[17:41:02] <Texas> Skyla fyi my position is that the match should be rewound and birkal given the opportunity to order something legal
[17:41:45] <Birkal> I'm fine with a reorder
[17:41:50] <Birkal> but I'd like handbook to be fixed
[17:42:03] <Birkal> I'm fine with you changing your orders too if you want, texas
[17:43:17] <Texas> I don't want to change my orders
Over to you Birkal