Flygon (BluffGon)

[MetaNite]

This set was created and written by user cost.

<cost> meta if you want to post the bluffgon set then go ahead
<cost> i'm too busy to do it
<MetaNoob> do you want me to post it for you?
<cost> yeah that'd be cool

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/flygon

name: Bluffgon
move 1: U-turn
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / ThunderPunch
item: Haban Berry / Expert Belt
nature: Naive / Naughty
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>In today's metagame, Flygon is almost always used as a Choice Scarf-wielding revenge killer. Despite losing the Speed necessary to carry out its revenging duties, this set maintains the ability to scout the opponent's team, while easily bluffing the Choice Scarf set. The Choice Scarf set is so common and overused, it takes very little effort to fool the opposition into thinking this Flygon is holding a Choice Scarf as well, often allowing one to net a couple of surprise kills during the duration of the battle.</p>

<p>The Attack EVs and nature of this set are pretty much the same as the Choice Scarf set. Not only does U-turn allow Flygon to scout the opponent's team, but it also plays a big part in bluffing a Choice Scarf. Outrage and Earthquake are two powerful attacks that receive STAB and great coverage; however, Dragon Claw is a perfectly viable option over Outrage since Flygon becomes quite vulnerable once it is locked into an Outrage, and even more so without the Speed a Choice Scarf adds (which could also give away your bluff when a faster Pokemon is switched in). Fire Blast is the attack of choice, simply for better coverage against the likes of Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, and Bronzong. ThunderPunch is useful against Gyarados, while also doing decent damage to Skarmory, although you can't hope to 2HKO physically defensive versions. Stone Edge is another viable option; however, many Flying-type Pokemon, such as Skarmory, Dragonite and Salamence, are hit harder by Flygon's other attacks. 252 EVs in Speed and Attack are obviously necessary to maximize Speed and damage output. Flygon enjoys and needs all the speed it can get, so a Naive nature is recommended over a Naughty nature.</p>

<p>When used correctly, this set can net you at least one or two easy kills by catching your opponent off guard; that being said, knowing how to use this set properly is vital to its success. As a general rule of thumb, you'll always want to switch Flygon in on something that it outspeeds, so that when you go to scout with U-turn, whether the opposition switches out or not, you're always moving first; therefore you aren't giving away the surprise that Flygon in fact isn't wielding a Choice Scarf. Some exceptions would be switching into a resisted attack, the user of which will obviously switch out.</p>

<p>The item of choice for Flygon is completely up to the battler. Haban Berry is helpful for a lot of the Pokemon you will be revealing your bluff on, including Latias, Salamence, Heatran, Kingdra, Dragonite, and other Flygon. Expert Belt gives Flygon's attacks a little more power, turning some 3HKOs into 2HKOs and some 2HKOs into OHKOs. For example, with Expert Belt, Flygon can always 2HKO the standard Skarmory with Fire Blast as well as OHKO any Specially Defensive Forretress as long as it has taken Stealth Rock damage prior (there is still a high chance to OHKO without Stealth Rock down, however). With the Expert Belt, Tyranitar is OHKOed about 50% of the time from Flygon's Earthquake provided Stealth Rock is on the field. If Stone Edge is used, it should be noted that the standard defensive Zapdos is 2HKOed over 90% of the time with Stone Edge and with the help of Expert Belt after Stealth Rock damage and one turn of Leftovers gain.</p>

<p>This Flygon plays similarly to the Choice Scarf Flygon set. Flygon really appreciates Stealth Rock on the field, since its base Attack stat isn't strong enough and won't be netting as many OHKOs as, say, Salamence. Steel-types, such as Heatran and Magnezone, do a good job of absorbing super effective Ice- and Dragon-type attacks; those two Pokemon also take care of other Steel-types that might get in Flygon's way, especially if Flygon is not running Fire Blast. If a Pokemon like Heatran is chosen as a partner for Flygon, it might be best to give Flygon ThunderPunch or even Stone Edge instead of Fire Blast in order to possibly lure and kill Gyarados. Scizor can take Flygon's weaknesses and serve as an effective U-turning partner. Scizor can also pick off weakened Pokemon with Bullet Punch after Flygon has used U-turn. Since Flygon isn't going to be your main attacking Pokemon, an effective wall-breaker, such as Infernape, will be needed. Without ThunderPunch, Gyarados and other bulky Water-types will certainly be a problem for Flygon; Vaporeon can take Dragon- and Ice-type attacks and can take care of Gyarados with Hidden Power Electric.</p>

 

[Darkmalice]

ThunderPunch should only be mentioned in set comments. Even min/min Gyarados is unlikely to be OHKOed by ThunderPunch factoring in Intimidate and SR damage, whilst Ice Fang will always OHKO Flygon. And Gyarados is the only reason you would use ThunderPunch. Fire Blast is useful for many more Pokemon (including the ones that take almost nil from Outrage) and actually is a solid answer to these Pokemon.

Also, there should not be spaces between the words and <p> or </p>

 

[whistle]

I think there should be a greater focus on what Pokemon this set baits, what circumstances to use it under, etc. Haunter's bait Tyranitar set (on site) does a pretty good job of explaining the set and its strategy so perhaps look at that and add in the necessary information. Also, a lot of the comments seem to be extra fluff that isn't really relevant to the set itself or "duh" information that doesn't really need to be mentioned, so I would try to make the analysis more concise too.

"Expert Belt gives Flygon's attacks a little more power turning some 2HKOs into OHKOs." ... such as?

 

[LickThePaint]

2nd Para, you need to swap "Jolly" and "Adamant" to "Naive" and "Naughty"

 

[Fuzznip]

name: Bluffgon
move 1: U-turn
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / ThunderPunch
item: Haban Berry / Expert Belt
nature: Naive / Naughty
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

<p>In today's metagame, Flygon is almost always used as a Choice Scarf-wielding revenge killer. Despite losing the Speed necessary to carry out its revenging duties, this set maintains the ability to scout your opponent's team, while easily bluffing the Choice Scarf set. The Choice Scarf set is so common and overused, it takes very little effort to fool the opposition into thinking this Flygon is also holding a Choice Scarf, often allowing one to net a couple of surprise kills during the duration of the battle.</p>

<p>The Attack EVs and nature of this set are pretty much the same as the Choice Scarf set. Not only does U-turn allow Flygon to scout the opponent's team, but it also plays a big part in bluffing a Choice Scarf, which will be explained later. Outrage and Earthquake are two powerful attacks that receive STAB and great coverage; however, Dragon Claw is a perfectly viable option over Outrage since Flygon becomes quite vulnerable once it is locked into an Outrage, and even more so without the Speed a Choice Scarf adds (which could also give away your bluff when a faster Pokemon is switched in). Fire Blast is the attack of choice, simply for better coverage against the likes of Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, and Bronzong. ThunderPunch is useful against Gyarados, while also doing decent damage to Skarmory, although you can't hope to 2HKO physically defensive versions. Stone Edge is another viable option; however, many Flying-type Pokemon, such as Skarmory, Dragonite and Salamence, are hit harder by Flygon's other attacks. 252 EVs in Speed and Attack are obviously necessary to maximize Speed and damage output. Flygon enjoys and needs all the speed it can get, so a Naive nature is recommended over a Naughty nature.</p>

<p>When used correctly, this set can net you at least one or two easy kills by catching your opponent off guard; that said, knowing how to use this set properly is vital to this set's success. As a general rule of thumb, you'll always want to switch Flygon in on something that it outspeeds, so that when you go to scout with U-turn, whether the opposition switches out or not, you're always moving first and therefore, not giving away the fact that Flygon is not holding a Choice Scarf. Some exceptions would be switching into a resisted attack, the user of which will obviously switch out.</p>

<p>The item of choice for Flygon is completely up to the battler. Haban Berry is helpful for a lot of the Pokemon you will be revealing your bluff on, including Latias, Salamence, Heatran, Kingdra, Dragonite, and other Flygon. Expert Belt gives Flygon's attacks a little more power, turning some 2HKOs into OHKOs.</p> (like what?)

<p>This Flygon plays similarly to the Choice Scarf Flygon set. Flygon really appreciates Stealth Rock on the field, since its base Attack stat isn't strong enough and won't be netting as many OHKOs as, say, Salamence. Steel-types, such as Heatran and Magnezone, do a good job of absorbing super effective Ice- and Dragon-type attacks; those two Pokemon also take care of other Steel-types that might get in Flygon's way, especially if Flygon is not running Fire Blast. If a Pokemon like Heatran is chosen as a partner for Flygon, it might be best to give Flygon ThunderPunch or even Stone Edge instead of Fire Blast in order to possibly lure and kill Gyarados. Scizor can take Flygon's weaknesses and serve as an effective U-turning partner. Scizor can also pick off weakened Pokemon with Bullet Punch after Flygon has used U-turn. Since Flygon isn't going to be your main attacking Pokemon, an effective wall-breaker, such as Infernape, will be needed. Without ThunderPunch, Gyarados and other bulky Water-types will certainly be a problem for Flygon; Vaporeon can take Dragon- and Ice-type attacks and can take care of Gyarados with Hidden Power Electric.</p>

Cool.

 

[les gets]

thanks for the proofread (fuzznip) and comments guys

 

[Snorlaxe]

This set was created and written by user cost.

<cost> meta if you want to post the bluffgon set then go ahead
<cost> i'm too busy to do it
<MetaNoob> do you want me to post it for you?
<cost> yeah that'd be cool

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/flygon

name: Bluffgon
move 1: U-turn
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / ThunderPunch
item: Haban Berry / Expert Belt
nature: Naive / Naughty
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

<p>In today's metagame, Flygon is almost always used as a Choice Scarf-wielding revenge killer. Despite losing the Speed necessary to carry out its revenging duties, this set maintains the ability to scout the opponent's team, while easily bluffing the Choice Scarf set. The Choice Scarf set is so common and overused, it takes very little effort to fool the opposition into thinking this Flygon is holding a Choice Scarf as well, often allowing one to net a couple of surprise kills during the duration of the battle.</p>

<p>The Attack EVs and nature of this set are pretty much the same as the Choice Scarf set. Not only does U-turn allow Flygon to scout the opponent's team, but it also plays a big part in bluffing a Choice Scarf, which will be explained later (I would think about removing that little fragment, imo its not really necessary). Outrage and Earthquake are two powerful attacks that receive STAB and great coverage; however, Dragon Claw is a perfectly viable option over Outrage since Flygon becomes quite vulnerable once it is locked into an Outrage, and even more so without the Speed a Choice Scarf adds (which could also give away your bluff when a faster Pokemon is switched in). Fire Blast is the attack of choice, simply for better coverage against the likes of Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, and Bronzong. ThunderPunch is useful against Gyarados, while also doing decent damage to Skarmory, although you can't hope to 2HKO physically defensive versions. Stone Edge is another viable option; however, many Flying-type Pokemon, such as Skarmory, Dragonite and Salamence, are hit harder by Flygon's other attacks. 252 EVs in Speed and Attack are obviously necessary to maximize Speed and damage output. Flygon enjoys and needs all the speed it can get, so a Naive nature is recommended over a Naughty nature.</p>

<p>When used correctly, this set can net you at least one or two easy kills by catching your opponent off guard; that being said, knowing how to use this set properly is vital to its success. As a general rule of thumb, you'll always want to switch Flygon in on something that it outspeeds, so that when you go to scout with U-turn, whether the opposition switches out or not, you're always moving first; therefore you aren't giving away the surprise that Flygon in fact isn't wielding a Choice Scarf. (I thought that it sounded kinda like a run-on sentence). Some exceptions would be switching into a resisted attack, the user of which will obviously switch out.</p>

<p>The item of choice for Flygon is completely up to the battler. Haban Berry is helpful for a lot of the Pokemon you will be revealing your bluff on, including Latias, Salamence, Heatran, Kingdra, Dragonite, and other Flygon. Expert Belt gives Flygon's attacks a little more power, turning some 2HKOs into OHKOs. (like what?)</p>

<p>This Flygon plays similarly to the Choice Scarf Flygon set. Flygon really appreciates Stealth Rock on the field, since its base Attack stat isn't strong enough and won't be netting as many OHKOs as, say, Salamence. Steel-types, such as Heatran and Magnezone, do a good job of absorbing super effective Ice- and Dragon-type attacks; those two Pokemon also take care of other Steel-types that might get in Flygon's way, especially if Flygon is not running Fire Blast. If a Pokemon like Heatran is chosen as a partner for Flygon, it might be best to give Flygon ThunderPunch or even Stone Edge instead of Fire Blast in order to possibly lure and kill Gyarados. Scizor can take Flygon's weaknesses and serve as an effective U-turning partner. Scizor can also pick off weakened Pokemon with Bullet Punch after Flygon has used U-turn. Since Flygon isn't going to be your main attacking Pokemon, an effective wall-breaker, such as Infernape, will be needed. Without ThunderPunch, Gyarados and other bulky Water-types will certainly be a problem for Flygon; Vaporeon can take Dragon- and Ice-type attacks and can take care of Gyarados with Hidden Power Electric.</p>

Changes in blue, additions in green, comments in purple, removals in red!

Nice write up Cost, just snagged a few things here and there.

 

[MetaNite]

Updated OP with a revamp from cost himself. Probably requires additional grammar checks. Thanks.

 

[Scoopapa]

You might want to note that this is one Flygon who can actually get away with spamming Earthquake. Salamence and Skarmory in particular can be nailed by Fire Blast or Outrage, expecting to be able to set up as Flygon switches out. You have a good analysis here, but I found that pokemon switching in on Ground immunities to be a major aspect of bluffing with Flygon, so it may be worth mentioning.

 

[les gets]

You might want to note that this is one Flygon who can actually get away with spamming Earthquake. Salamence and Skarmory in particular can be nailed by Fire Blast or Outrage, expecting to be able to set up as Flygon switches out. You have a good analysis here, but I found that pokemon switching in on Ground immunities to be a major aspect of bluffing with Flygon, so it may be worth mentioning.

I understand what you are saying, and you're right, however there are many other instances where your opponent will think Flygon is locked in and decide what to switch in accordingly, unaware Flygon is actually not holding a Choice Scarf, and I think this write-up is too long to have specific situations added in (in fact, it looks a little too long as it is).

 

[Bilaterus]

Changes in bold, removals in red, question marks indicate my noobishness and uncertainty. Basically, disregard whatever doesn't make sense...

[SET]?
name: Bluffgon
move 1: U-turn
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / ThunderPunch
item: Haban Berry / Expert Belt
nature: Naive / Naughty
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe (4HP makes his HP even, making residual damage do slightly more. Move to Def?)

[SET COMMENTS]
no space here?
<p>In today's metagame, Flygon is almost always used as a Choice Scarf-wielding revenge killer (mention his usage as a scout?). Despite losing the Speed necessary to carry out its revenging duties, this set maintains the ability to scout the opponent's team, while easily bluffing the Choice Scarf set. The Choice Scarf set is so common and overused, It takes very little effort to fool the opposition into thinking this Flygon is holding a Choice Scarf as well, often allowing one to net a couple of surprise kills (a couple suggests 2+ kills, isn't it usually only one?) during the duration of the battle.</p>

<p>The Attack EVs and nature of this set are pretty much the same as the Choice Scarf set. (Not necessary, and EVs are discussed later) Not only does U-turn allow Flygon to scout the opponent's team, but it also plays a big part in bluffing a Choice Scarf. Outrage and Earthquake are two powerful attacks that receive STAB and great coverage; however, Dragon Claw is a perfectly viable option over Outrage since Flygon becomes quite vulnerable once it is locked into an Outrage, and even more so without the Speed a Choice Scarf adds (which could also give away your bluff when a faster Pokemon is switched in). Fire Blast is the attack of choice, simply for better coverage against the likes of Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, and Bronzong. ThunderPunch is useful against Gyarados, while also doing decent damage to Skarmory, although you can't hope to 2HKO Physically Defensive versions (ThunderPunch can also help mislead your opponent?). Stone Edge is another viable option; however, many Flying-type Pokemon, such as Skarmory, Dragonite and Salamence, are hit harder by Flygon's other attacks.(so Stone Edge isn't viable? Change?) 252 EVs in Speed and Attack are obviously necessary to maximize Speed and damage output. Flygon enjoys and needs all the Speed it can get, so a Naive nature is recommended over a Naughty nature.</p>

<p>When used correctly, this set can net you at least one or two (Once surprised, opponent will know it is not Scarfed?) easy kills by catching your opponent off guard; that being said, knowing how to use this set properly is vital to its success. As a general rule of thumb, you'll always want to switch Flygon in on something that it outspeeds, so that when you go to scout with U-turn, whether the opposition switches out or not, you're always moving first; therefore you aren't giving away the surprise that Flygon in fact isn't wielding a Choice Scarf. Some exceptions would be switching into a choiced resisted attack, because the user of which will obviously switch out.</p>

<p>The item of choice for Flygon is completely up to the battler. Haban Berry is helpful for a lot of the Pokemon you will be revealing your bluff on, including Latias, Salamence, Heatran, Kingdra, Dragonite, and other Flygon. Expert Belt gives Flygon's attacks a little more power, turning some 3HKOs into 2HKOs and some 2HKOs into OHKOs. For example, with Expert Belt, Flygon can always 2HKO the standard Skarmory with Fire Blast as well as OHKO any Specially Defensive Forretress as long as it has taken Stealth Rock damage prior (there is still a high chance to OHKO without Stealth Rock down, however). With the Expert Belt, Tyranitar is OHKOed about 50% of the time from Flygon's Earthquake provided Stealth Rock is on the field. If Stone Edge is used, it should be noted that the standard defensive Zapdos is 2HKOed over 90% of the time with Stone Edge and with the help of Expert Belt after Stealth Rock damage and one turn of Leftovers gain.(Misleading? Doesn't take into account accuracy?)</p>

<p>This Flygon plays similarly to the Choice Scarf Flygon set. Flygon really appreciates Stealth Rock on the field, since its base Attack stat isn't high enough to net as many OHKOs as Pokemon like Salamence (and mention Flygon forces switches). Steel-types, such as Heatran and Magnezone, do a good job of absorbing super effective Ice- and Dragon-type attacks; those two Pokemon also take care of other Steel-types that might get in Flygon's way, especially if Flygon is not running Fire Blast. If a Pokemon like Heatran is chosen as a partner for Flygon, it might be best to give Flygon ThunderPunch or even Stone Edge (Stone Edge will struggle to 2HKO Gyra factoring accuracy? Don't mention?)instead of Fire Blast in order to possibly lure and kill Gyarados. Scizor can take Flygon's weaknesses and serve as an effective U-turning partner. Scizor can also pick off weakened Pokemon with Bullet Punch after Flygon has used U-turn. Since Flygon isn't going to be your main attacking Pokemon, an effective wall-breaker, such as Infernape, will be needed. Without ThunderPunch, Gyarados and other bulky Waters will certainly be a problem for Flygon; Vaporeon can take Dragon- and Ice-type attacks and can take care of Gyarados with Hidden Power Electric.(but doesn't Vaporeon struggle against other bulky waters?)</p>

 

[Colonel M]

Alright, so no one has really "discussed" this set's worth and, to be honest, I think this set has some potential to be added. Can anyone else other than cost / MetaNite attest to this set?

 

[Thorns]

i can attest to the effectiveness of expert belt flygon, but i've toyed around with haban and it doesn't provide fire blast with the kick that you need. either haban should be the second option or only mentioned in set comments, you already describe how expert belt gives you some crucial kills

 

[les gets]

I mean it's really up to the battler. As long as the item you are using does not have any effect on Flygon's stats and health, and the item is not stupid like potion, then it's viable, however it really comes down to a type-resist berry or expert belt (in no particular order). Both are useful for different situations; it's like comparing leftovers and life orb, where one isn't necessarily better than the other generally speaking.

 

[TubaKing]

From my experience with Expert Belt Flygon, Toxic also works beautifully on this set over U-Turn.
The set I run uses: Expert Belt, the same EV spread, and Earthquake / Dragon Claw/ Toxic/ Fire Blast. It has definitely worked really well for the team I'm working on.
The only thing I really find disappointing about this set is the lack of power in Fire Blast. I've been meaning to toy around with the EV spread a bit.

 

[Setsuna]

Alright, so no one has really "discussed" this set's worth and, to be honest, I think this set has some potential to be added. Can anyone else other than cost / MetaNite attest to this set?

Or otherwise the QCers could give it a round of testing.

Although I've faced this type of Flygon a couple of times before, I can't weigh in on it and say if it's effective or not.

 

[Colonel M]

Yeah, I think this needs a good test before we submit it. I'll let you guys decide on it.

 

[Philip7086]

Alright, I'll move this to QC for now. Without Latias, this set's effectiveness has probably dropped significantly - +1 Mence will still KO through Haban with Outrage.

 

[Setsuna]

I will test this set out once I'm done with my QC Pokémon. I would also like another QCer to take this set and test it as well; in fact, I would like this QCer to post here accordingly what I've asked.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah, I'll be testing this.

 

[Zystral]

[21:25:34] <SevenDeadlySins> i wanted to talk about that bluff flygon set
[21:25:43] <writing_sock> oh
[21:25:44] <SevenDeadlySins> since you used it on that team you linked me to
[21:25:45] <writing_sock> what about it?
[21:25:46] <writing_sock> yeah
[21:25:52] <writing_sock> well
[21:25:54] <writing_sock> how to say
[21:25:58] <writing_sock> it does what is expected of it
[21:26:01] <writing_sock> it's not shit, but it's not stellar
[21:26:06] <SevenDeadlySins> was it effective in a no-latias metagame?
[21:26:26] <writing_sock> I would say more effective
[21:26:32] <writing_sock> since that's one less thing to worry about being outsped by
[21:26:40] <SevenDeadlySins> right
[21:26:43] <writing_sock> the thing about BluffGon
[21:26:52] <writing_sock> is that you only drop the ball when necessary
[21:27:01] <writing_sock> e.g. don't fire blast the skarm switch in immediately
[21:27:05] <writing_sock> I think that needs to be emphasized
[21:27:14] <SevenDeadlySins> right
[21:27:34] <writing_sock> and the EV spread could do with work
[21:27:36] <writing_sock> I mean
[21:27:38] <writing_sock> you're bluffing a scarf
[21:27:43] <writing_sock> I'm failing to see a need for maximum speed
[21:27:47] <writing_sock> I've been running 216 fine
[21:27:56] <writing_sock> because then your Fire Blast has enough chunk to always 2HKO Skarm with SR
[21:27:57] <SevenDeadlySins> 252 lets you tie with mence and jirachi
[21:28:02] <SevenDeadlySins> it's fairly important
[21:28:07] <SevenDeadlySins> i'd rather skimp on the attack than the speed
[21:28:11] <writing_sock> I'd rather not tie with Mence and Rachi
[21:28:24] <SevenDeadlySins> i'd rather have a 50% chance against them than a 0% chance
[21:28:34] <writing_sock> The thing is
[21:28:40] <writing_sock> Unless you are locked into EQ
[21:28:47] <writing_sock> Mence is not switching in anyway in fear of Outrage
[21:28:50] <writing_sock> and since you're usually scarfed
[21:28:56] <writing_sock> that's why they're staying away
[21:29:04] <writing_sock> and as for Rachi, what is it doing to you bar Iron head spam
[21:29:16] <SevenDeadlySins> imagine clutch situations
[21:29:23] <SevenDeadlySins> lategame
[21:29:34] <writing_sock> If we're talking late game, then yeah sure
[21:29:36] <SevenDeadlySins> where flygon needs to have a chance to tie rachi/mence
[21:29:37] <writing_sock> I agree
[21:29:41] <writing_sock> If they know you're EBelted
[21:29:41] <SevenDeadlySins> you need that max speed
[21:29:46] <writing_sock> and you're facing down a Mence
[21:29:52] <writing_sock> then yes, potential tie with mence is good
[21:30:04] <writing_sock> but earlier on, where you should be using flygon more, and where it really amtters
[21:30:20] <SevenDeadlySins> it's all about what it does for your team
[21:30:26] <writing_sock> Yeah
[21:30:39] <writing_sock> I use mine to spam u-turns, then Outrage, then Fire Blast as Skarm comes in
[21:30:46] <writing_sock> then I use it as death fodder so SubTWave rachi can set up
[21:31:07] <writing_sock> Another thing I noticed
[21:31:21] <writing_sock> earlier on, when Outrage is your best option
[21:31:30] <writing_sock> getting locked in as they switch something faster in ruins the plot
[21:31:38] <writing_sock> so I would definitely go for Dragon Claw as another option
[21:31:41] <SevenDeadlySins> yup
[21:31:44] <SevenDeadlySins> that's what i was thinking
[21:32:03] <writing_sock> yeah
[21:32:14] <writing_sock> it's not fun outraging only to have Starmie come in
[21:32:32] <writing_sock> But otherwise
[21:32:35] <writing_sock> I'd call it a decent set
[21:32:46] <writing_sock> not as good as the scarfer
[21:32:52] <writing_sock> but worth an on-site set.
[21:33:01] <SevenDeadlySins> yup
[21:33:13] <SevenDeadlySins> can you post some of this in the thread?

TL;DR - Nowhere near as good as the Scarf set, but can pull a similar job early on and can eliminate the likes of Skarmory offhand if need be.

 

[Philip7086]

So I'm going to flat out reject Haban on this set for these reasons:

MixMence Draco: 105.3% - 124.2%
+1 non-Orb DD Mence Outrage: 120.5% - 142.1%

Salamence is KOing you through Haban regardless, so you might as well outpace it, or go for the speed tie with Scarf. As for Expert Belt, I feel like Mixed Flygon with Life Orb has more utility than this. If you think about it, most things will be switching in as you U-turn anyways, so you won't have much time to bluff. I also do not want to promote shaky strategies like "bluffing" a Choice Scarf vs. things like Jolteon and Raikou, where if they call your bluff, you're dead. I'm going to have to say no to this set.

 

[remlabmez]

I like this set to be honest, you may not able to bluff every match but I can see how it can work. I would imagine this set works like EB tar, scoring surprise kills pretty often on things like skarm thinking you are locked on EQ. I am leaning towards approving this set just not completely sure atm.

 

[Stagnant]

Honestly Substitute is a much better option than U-Turn and Draco Plate is better than Expert Belt (A difference between OHKO's and 2HKO's is almost non-existent). Why 'bluff' with U-turn when it will be doing minimal damage? Lower the speed, add to Special Attack to guarantee a 2hko on Skarm, and use a +Atk Nature.

 

[remlabmez]

Honestly Substitute is a much better option than U-Turn and Draco Plate is better than Expert Belt (A difference between OHKO's and 2HKO's is almost non-existent). Why 'bluff' with U-turn when it will be doing minimal damage? Lower the speed, add to Special Attack to guarantee a 2hko on Skarm, and use a +Atk Nature.

The whole point of this set is to bluff, you are suggesting something entirely different which I honestly have no clue why. Anyways I approve of this set