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Free Garchomp!: An Essay Supporting Garchomp's Re-entry into OU

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Mr.E, Jun 9, 2009.

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  1. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
    is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Winner

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    Inspired by the great (read: gay) Colin, I decided I was tired of arguing against the same inane crap over and over again. Thus, this post is born. ITT I place my definitive argument regarding Garchomp’s Suspect status, attempting to show the masses why Garchomp belongs in OU. Then, I’m going to link it in my sig and point to it whenever I see anybody says anything regarding Garchomp’s Uber status because I hate you all.

    I plan to go over virtually any remotely reasonable evidence people have suggested in the past “proves” Garchomp’s Uber status, so there should be no need for criticism. I am entertaining no more arguments, as the entire point of this “essay” is to be my comprehensive and definitive stance on the subject. Take it for what it is. My only hope is to further educate the newer users, or perhaps sway those not quite sure of themselves, so that Garchomp may roam free in the wild once more. Sadly, my effort is likely to be for naught...

    =-=-=-=

    At any rate, the freshest thing in everyone’s mind seems to be the current usage statistics, so it would be wise of me to start there. Many people seem to think Garchomp’s whopping 63.89% usage in the past month’s Stage 3 Suspect Test “proves” it is uber. After all, people use what works, right? Indeed, but there is likely a better explanation than Garchomp being overwhelmingly strong.

    The last full month Garchomp was allowed in OU was August 2008. (That long ago? Heh.) The top 10 usage for that month was...

    Garchomp - 54.74%
    Gengar - 45.38%
    Gyarados - 35.91%
    Metagross - 35.46%
    Lucario - 33.83%
    Deoxys-S - 31.85%
    Blissey - 31.79%
    Heatran - 31.06%
    Bronzong - 28.27%
    Infernape - 26.56%

    As we can see, Garchomp only slightly cracked 50% usage at the peak of its infamy. Gengar usage was also extremely high and we don’t even see a Pokémon with lower usage than current #1 OU standard (Scizor at 29.16%) until Bronzong at ninth.

    Keep in mind the above usage statistics are from nearly a year ago, pre-Platinum and before Latias was voted into OU. (Deoxys-Speed was also allowed, however, so perhaps Latias would only serve as a replacement to it.) So how does one explain Garchomp’s all-time high usage? By all accounts, Garchomp in the current Suspect test is weaker than ever. All the other suspects outspeed it, except Manaphy who has enough bulk to tank a hit and fire back with Ice Beam. Scizor’s emergence in Platinum is yet another potential revenge-killer and Outrage switch-in that didn’t previously exist. Platinum’s addition of Trick to practically everything has made Choice Scarf a more popular item in general, giving rise to even more revenge-killers. Indeed, Garchomp being exceedingly strong doesn’t appear to be the answer – it’s never been weaker.

    The most likely explanation for Garchomp’s massive usage on Suspect is simply because Garchomp is a suspect. Look at the January 2009 Suspect Test, when Latias was being tested for OU status, and what do you see? Latias is in over 50% of Suspect teams. Same with Latios in February. Same with Manaphy in March and April. (Manaphy didn’t quite crack 50% but it was still #1 in usage.) But then why is Garchomp used so much more than all the other Suspects now? That is not something I can definitively answer. Part of it may be that Garchomp is a former OU pokémon and people just miss using it. Maybe it stems from the fact that Garchomp is simply easier to fit into a team than the other Suspects, with its bulkiness and unique typing. Scizor’s emergence may have bolstered its relative numbers, since Garchomp fares better against it than the other suspects sans Manaphy. Nobody knows! What I do know is that it is not due to Garchomp’s supposedly “broken” power, as explained in the previous paragraph.

    =-=-=-=

    “LOL 102 BASE SPEED”

    People often rave about Garchomp’s great speed and cite it as a major reason as to why Garchomp is overpowered. Let’s take an objective look at this. We’ll make one of my favorite comparisons to prove my point. Salamence is a very good comparison to Garchomp because it also relies primarily on strong neutral attacks from its Dragon typing and it has a very close 100 Base Speed value. Salamence’s typing and Intimidate also give it ample opportunity to switch in and it’s also 4x weak to Ice. Salamence is also noted as being a very potent sweeper, “guaranteeing” kills in a similar fashion to Garchomp.

    So then, what does that +2 base Speed allow Garchomp to do that its Flying counterpart cannot? Excluding itself, the only thing it will do is avoid Speed ties from other Base 100 pokémon, including other Salamence. But how relevant is that?

    There are only six Pokémon in OU with a 100 Base Speed stat. They are:

    Celebi
    Jirachi
    Zapdos
    Tentacruel
    Flygon
    and Salamence

    To determine how often one of these Pokémon can even attempt a 50/50 with Salamence, we must look at the Speed EV breakdown people use on these Pokémon. From this past month’s statistics, May 2009, these are…

    Standard:
    | Celebi | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 48.0 |
    | Celebi | Speed EV | None | 24.5 |
    | Celebi | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 13.4 |
    | Celebi | Speed EV | Other (4) | < 8.5 |

    | Jirachi | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 44.9 |
    | Jirachi | Speed EV | Max | 27.0 |
    | Jirachi | Speed EV | None | 11.9 |
    | Jirachi | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 10.5 |
    | Jirachi | Speed EV | Other (2) | < 2.9 |

    | Zapdos | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 39.2 |
    | Zapdos | Speed EV | Max | 27.2 |
    | Zapdos | Speed EV | None | 12.7 |
    | Zapdos | Speed EV | Other (4) | < 7.3 |

    | Tentacruel | Speed EV | None | 80.1 |
    | Tentacruel | Speed EV | Max | 9.1 |
    | Tentacruel | Speed EV | Other (3) | < 5.0 |

    | Flygon | Speed EV | Max | 53.8 |
    | Flygon | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 31.3 |
    | Flygon | Speed EV | Other (4) | < 8.3 |

    | Salamence | Speed EV | Max | 66.4 |
    | Salamence | Speed EV | Very High (200+) | 11.4 |
    | Salamence | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 10.6 |
    | Salamence | Speed EV | Other (3) | < 4.7 |


    Suspect:

    | Celebi | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 52.1 |
    | Celebi | Speed EV | None | 32.9 |
    | Celebi | Speed EV | Other (3) | < 6.8 |

    | Jirachi | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 35.1 |
    | Jirachi | Speed EV | Max | 31.5 |
    | Jirachi | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 17.5 |
    | Jirachi | Speed EV | None | 11.9 |
    | Jirachi | Speed EV | Very High (200+) | 4.0 |

    | Zapdos | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 46.3 |
    | Zapdos | Speed EV | None | 21.8 |
    | Zapdos | Speed EV | Low (50-100) | 11.8 |
    | Zapdos | Speed EV | Other (3) | < 7.8 |

    | Tentacruel | Speed EV | None | 60.9 |
    | Tentacruel | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 36.4 |
    | Tentacruel | Speed EV | Low (50-100) | 2.8 |

    | Flygon | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 45.1 |
    | Flygon | Speed EV | Max | 31.4 |
    | Flygon | Speed EV | None | 12.4 |
    | Flygon | Speed EV | Other (2) | < 9.5 |

    | Salamence | Speed EV | Max | 59.9 |
    | Salamence | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 19.5 |
    | Salamence | Speed EV | Medium (100-150) | 11.8 |
    | Salamence | Speed EV | Other (2) | < 5.6 |

    As shown, virtually no Celebi, Zapdos, or Tentacruel ever run max Speed, making Garchomp’s extra Speed over Salamence completely irrelevant against them. Even so, only about 1/3 of Jirachi and Flygon run it and both carry Scarf as one of their most common items, which outspeed both Dragons anyway. (Leftovers is more common on Suspect Jirachi but Scarf is more common on Standard Jirachi and Flygon on both ladders.) Max Speed Zapdos is notable in Standard but has been non-existent in Suspect thus far. Indeed, Garchomp’s Speed over Salamence means almost nothing... except when talking about another Salamence or Garchomp! Everything else that Garchomp outspeeds, Salamence also outspeeds (and vice-versa). One must also not forget that even forcing a Speed tie only gives the opponent a 50/50 shot at stopping Salamence, not a guaranteed revenge kill. DD variants are also completely unphased, since one DD ensures Salamence outspeeds all Pokémon not using Choice Scarf or a priority move.

    =-=-=-=

    “Garchomp guarantees at least one kill per match, that’s broken!”

    First, let me get it off my chest that I hate when people state things in absolute terms. No Pokémon is ever “guaranteed” to kill anything. Garchomp is very likely to kill something but it is never 100% certain to get a kill every match.

    Now that I’ve said that, I will admit that, yes, Garchomp is very likely to kill something most of the time. However, it is hardly the only Pokémon that does so and, played against properly, should rarely garner more than one kill either.

    Let’s start with a Salamence comparison, again. The scary thing about Salamence is that it has great power from either spectrum, with a base Atk second only to Rhyperior, SpA equal to Latias, and access to both Outrage and Draco Meteor. Like SD ‘chomp, MixMence variants 2HKO virtually everything under the sun at essentially Garchomp-level Speed, as shown earlier. And it doesn’t need to boost! (Salamence is also far more versatile outside of this role, unlike Garchomp, but the focus here is on raw killing power.)

    How about DD Salamence? I mention this because I also often hear people decry Swords Dance as the reason Garchomp is so much better. Compared to Garchomp’s SD, DD Salamence sacrifices power against bulkier Pokémon to obtain the Speed necessary to beat many revenge killers, including these OU pokémon:

    Infernape
    Latias
    Gengar
    Starmie
    Azelf
    Dugtrio (soon to be UU/BL, oops!)
    Alakazam
    Jolteon
    Aerodactyl
    Ninjask
    Shaymin-S and Latios among suspects.

    All of these pokémon are fragile enough for either one to kill easily but SD Garchomp is not fast enough to avoid taking a hit from them where DD Salamence is. Most of them can deal heavy damage to Garchomp in a revenge killer role, especially Starmie and Latias.

    (Note: Weavile was not included due to its frequent use of Ice Shard. Dugtrio also possesses Sucker Punch but that is not a guaranteed kill and, more notably, Dugtrio traps only Garchomp among the two.)

    Likewise, Garchomp’s Swords Dance and/or its Ground STAB gives it the ability to OHKO some bulkier pokémon that are otherwise more likely to survive a hit from Salamence and fire back against. These include:

    Celebi, frequently carrying Grass Knot as its only damaging attack, which Salamence 4x resists.
    Jirachi
    Gliscor, frequently being set-up bait for Salamence anyway due to carrying EQ as its only damaging attack.
    Metagross
    Tyranitar
    Empoleon
    Swampert
    Blissey
    Rhyperior
    Dusknoir
    Manaphy among suspects, also notable for its 100 Base Speed to frequently force a Speed tie against Salamence.

    SD Garchomp also has a slight advantage against some really hardy tanks that neither one OHKO but outspeed regardless, like Suicune, Hippowdon, or Cresselia. That said, I don’t know where people got the idea that Swords Dance is significantly better than Dragon Dance. :/ As shown, both are roughly equivalent numerically. If one could choose, the better stat buff would depend only on which set of checks one wishes to remove – DD works better against fast offensive checks, SD work better against defensive checks. With that, I can safely say that DD Salamence is at least 98% as dangerous as SD Garchomp overall. :P And Salamence is the stronger of the two when unboosted.

    ... Sorry for kinda going on the whole DD/SD tirade, though it was still relevant to my point. At any rate, there are other pokémon notable for “guaranteeing” kills every match as well. Lucario is probably the most notable sweeper behind Salamence able to do such a thing, though Gengar is a strong universal check and it has a couple hard counters dependent on its filler attack. Speaking of which, Gengar is also well-known for kicking ass and taking names. Its ridiculous versatility usually allows it to finagle a kill and its Speed combined with Explosion or Destiny Bond practically assures it trades at worst. It can also disable yet another pokémon with Hypnosis. To avoid an exhaustive list, more obvious examples include any trappers or suicide users. Among other suspects, Specs Latios is absolutely ridiculous.

    =-=-=-=

    “Garchomp has no counters!”

    Indeed, Garchomp is simply too strong to have any true counters. That said, it does have a few reliable checks, unlike Salamence whose best check is... getting Stealth Rock up early. ;/ Like dealing with any pokémon, it’s best to know what you’re up against first.

    Scarfchomp? You’ll have difficulty revenge-killing it and it’s very dangerous in the late-game where your bulkier pokémon are more likely to be dead or weakened. That said, it’s much easier to wall than other sets due to its inability to threaten healthy walls, making it a liability early. Not significantly different from other Scarf Dragons.

    CBChomp? Very dangerous if you give the opponent a good opening to switch in due to its sheer power but, again, not significantly different from other CB Dragons. Easy to revenge kill and weaker in late-game due to being locked in but lacking Scarf’s Speed.

    SDChomp? User jrrrrrrrr likes to parrot the statement, “Garchomp kills one wall and cripples another.” That is exactly the wrong way to beat an SD Garchomp. Some good prediction can get you out unscathed but the reliable way to beat it is a sacrifice. It’s not as terrible as it sounds, since you basically choose which wall to sacrifice while crippling it and setting it an easy revenge kill from something faster or with priority. (It's certainly better than surprise Explosions killing the stuff you want to live.) This emphasizes balanced team-building; even a stall team needs a couple of faster pokemon, as sometimes Speed is the best defense. Don’t send in a second wall to finish the job unless it’s all you have left.

    SubSalac and other Sub/SD variants? Suffers greatly from “four moveslot syndrome.” It does sorta combine the power of normal SD Garchomp with the speed of DD Salamence but these typically carry only STAB attacks. The problem here is that Dragon Claw is significantly weaker than Outrage, so opting for it removes the “OHKO Factor” Garchomp is so infamous for. Opting for Outrage instead will stiff you against many Flying/Levitating pokémon, such as getting harmlessly stalled to confusion by Sub/Roost Zapdos or being thrown an Aerodactyl sacrifice (forcing you to Outrage and giving up the revenge kill for free afterward). Bronzong and Skarmory also counter these sets much easier than Garchomp carrying Fire attacks.

    Chain Chomp and other special variants? Useful only for the surprise factor, since Salamence does mixed or special sets far better with its much higher SpA. Everyone expects a Fire attack anyway, making the surprise only particularly useful for non-Steel walls (Draco Meteor), such as Gliscor and Hippowdon, both of which are almost nowhere to be seen on the Suspect Ladder. :/

    More generally, Skarmory and Bronzong make reliable checks to Garchomp since they resist its Dragon attacks, avoid EQ, but are not instantly torn up by its supporting Fire attack. Skarmory can then Whirlwind SD Garchomp away for later, similar to how it soft countered Curselax in GSC (i.e. It is not a pure counter but can wall it for a while until it’s easier to handle later), and its Spikes are as damaging to Garchomp as SR is to Salamence or Gyarados. Bronzong can retaliate with a strong Gyro Ball or Explode. Bulky Gyarados is a good check that doesn’t fear much but CB Outrage or the rare Stone Edge. Gliscor handles everything it can do and even contests Garchomp’s Sand Veil with its own.

    All the standard checks work on Garchomp as well, Scizor, Suicine, Ice Shard users and so on. Additionally, the threat of a free switch-in against Earthquake makes Garchomp hesitant to use it, especially on Choice sets, meaning you can often sneak in an extra hit or two you “shouldn’t” be allowed, if it switched in on your T-Tar or whatever. Garchomp wants you to switch so he can set-up and avoid having to predict, he gets scared if you take free shots at him and then force him to predict afterward. ;) Toxic Spikes also cripples all varieties of Garchomp, often seen on stall teams specifically for that purpose though it also works on other things, such as T-Tar and Blissey.

    =-=-=-=

    And finally... “Sand Veil is what makes Garchomp uber!”

    I’ve admitted it before that Sand Veil is the biggest, perhaps only, thing that separates Garchomp from most any other sweeper. Indeed, Salamence doesn’t have a 20% chance of avoiding Mamoswine’s Ice Shard. However, I would argue that the effect of Sand Veil on its performance is vastly overrated.

    First, and most importantly, I must point out that Sand Veil isn’t even running half the time. Feel free to gander at Tyranitar’s Suspect usage for May and you’ll notice he’s only on about 25% of teams. Looking at the “Ladder teammates” statistics, Tyranitar is only used on 29.70% of teams containing Garchomp, only slightly higher than its overall usage. This means ~55% of battles never have Sand Stream running at all! (~52% including Hippowdon, who’s barely seeing use.) Even a battle against two players both running Garchomp, Sand Stream is only up ~50.6% of the time, barely half.

    Secondly, I would point out that utilizing Garchomp’s ability requires Sand Stream to run effectively. There’s two problems with this. The first problem is that, if one wants to support Sand Veil, a second team slot has to be sacrificed to fit either Hippowdon or Tyranitar. Luckily these are both very good pokémon, making the accommodation easy to build around if one chooses, but do keep in mind that Sand Veil doesn’t work by itself.

    The other problem is that Sand Stream mucks with all sorts of other team-building aspects. It will nullify the Leftovers on most of your defensive pokémon (e.g. Blissey, Celebi) and increase the residual damage taken by many of your offensive pokémon who might be using other items. (e.g. Scarfgar, LO Infernape, Specsmence.) Most common Focus Sash users are ruined, though you can still put it on Aerodactyl or something. You also help opposing Gliscor, if that’s a wall your team otherwise has trouble with. (For one, it walls both Garchomp and standard T-Tar. :P) Sand Stream is really something you have to build your team around, to mitigate the problems it can cause non-immune team members, which is a lot more restrictive than the initial requirement of simply throwing Hippo/T-Tar in a second slot. And, according to the usage stats, a good 2/3 of people prefer not having to build around SS. Its presence is common enough that Moonlight Cresselia isn't looking to become standard any time soon but it's not as omnipresent as people make it out to be.

    Of course, my final point of contention is that, even if you do build around SS, Sand Veil is still only 20%. (Spamming Substitute fishing for misses isn’t really a valid strategy either, since the self-damage from Substitute replaces the life potentially saved from an extra miss.) But yeah, 20%, or ~10% if you average it against Sand Stream frequency. Sure, it sucks when your Mamoswine dies or your Scizor gets crippled because of an untimely miss, but luckily it doesn’t happen that often. It’s not even close to the level of hax Jirachi, Shaymin-s, Togekiss can put out. The 50/50 speed ties people hold over Salamence's head are just that, only 50%. It happens as often as Kingdra misses a clutch Hydro Pump or, accounting for SS frequency, as often as your Latias would’ve missed Draco Meteor anyway. :P Hell, don’t get me started on Meteor Miss or other innately inaccurate moves frequently used... At any rate, it is an admitted minor advantage for Garchomp, an advantage off-set by the previous issue of having to build around Sand Stream in the first place.

    Okay, I lied, that’s not quite it. I also wanted to point out that Sand Veil isn’t entirely uncounterable, though it’s a very minor point. :P Aura Sphere works, if you’re using a goofy Scarf Togekiss or something to outspeed Garchomp, and Machamp can be EVed bulky enough to take a hit if it really must. Weather teams removing Sand Stream are more viable, especially Abomasnow’s Snow Warning or Rain teams whose entire teams largely keep T-Tar and Hippo cowering in their pokéballs.

    Of course, through all of this, I’m not saying Garchomp is a bad pokémon. Hell, long before it was even banned I was calling it the best pokémon in OU. Nothing can really match its combination of bulkiness, speed, and power, though some pokémon that come close would include Salamence, Gyarados, maybe Heracross. Lucario substitutes bulkiness with amazing resists and augments its average speed with a priority move. (Most of the other “bulky sweepers” are not so fast, like Metagross, and most faster sweepers are very frail.) Its resistances make it very easy to fit into a team, notably the resistance to indirect damage from SS and SR. Garchomp is very good, it just isn’t broken good.
  2. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    I dunno. Platinum offered a few things that help it matched down a bit faster, but that's the problem: it's almost... the perfect sweeper. And by perfect, I mean there's little flaws to it. Back when I played OU a lot (or should I say Pokemon in general) a lot of teams had Garchomp as the backbone, which would explain breaking over 50%. One thing was it is a king of stall-breaking, only Toxic Spikes being it's true bane. I'm not worried about the shittiness that is "ChainChomp" because as discussed infinite times it is nothing more but a freaking gimmick.

    Another thing that helps a lot with Garchomp being allowed or not is the additions to OU. One thing that really struck with my head though was before DX-S's banning, it almost seemed like the perfect check to Garchomp: faster than Scarf variant and Ice Beam was usually powerful enough to take it down in one shot. But now we have Pokemon like the Latis and sure they can't "counter" him, but who can be reliably countered nowadays? Lucario's slipping of Ice Punch makes Gliscor think 20 times before switching into him, Gengar being the powerful mixed bag makes Blissey ponder if Explosion is going to nuke her, etc.

    Perhaps the one major thing that intimidated most players as well as myself was simply Sand Veil, which is heightened by Tyranitar's usefullness in the OU metagame. Obviously there is no real solution to this, but it's something I think is difficult to avoid. Then again people would always throw a random question like "What if Wobbuffet had Arena Trap instead of Shadow Tag?", and I only wish that there was a second ability. Ah well.

    I know there will be some that disagree, but I at least believe Garchomp coming into OU is a possibility.
  3. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Oh, and for more jrrrrrr hilarity:

    <jrrrr> the reliable way to beat it is a sacrifice.
    <jrrrr> hahahahahaha
    <jrrrr> the reliable way of beating garchomp is losing a pokemon
    <MrE> The reliable way of beating Gengar is losing a pokemon
    <MrE> mostly because it's nearly impossible to get around its suicide move, let alone if it disabled anything else with hypnosis
    <MrE> the reliable way of beating salamence is losing a pokemon
    <jrrrr> that isnt true
    <aldaron> well, scarf cresselia can reliably beat garchomp
    <MrE> the reliable way of even beating latios is losing a pokemon, since switching in the usual CBTar almost dies in the process anyway
    <jrrrr> i cant believe you wasted all that time when i can just quote 9 words and say lol
    <MrE> the reliable way of beating Lucario, unless you're carrying the one or two pokemon that isn't covered by its filler attack, is probably going to be a sacrifice
    <MrE> Could expend that even to defensive pokemon
    <MrE> sticking grass knot on random shit solely for swampert (and maybe t-tar)
    <MrE> sticking electric moves on random shit for gyarados or skarm
    <MrE> sticking fire moves on random shit for scizor
    <MrE> Which would obviously open you up to other things as you lose the move slot

    Please ignore his rather basic criticisms. Pointing out that the easiest and most reliable way to beat a particular subset of Garchomp is a sacrifice is not damning evidence to the contrary of my entire OP.
  4. Xaqwais

    Xaqwais

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    After Stage 3, I really do think Garchomp should be re-tested. Platinum is a much different metagame. With bulkier pokemon being run, Latias, and of course Scizor, I don't think old votes really should count.

    That said, I'm not sure where I stand. I do not believe Garchomp is broken. I never had too much trouble with it when I played on Official. So, to me, I don't think it should be banned.

    I'm not sure if it's more fun to play in a metagame with it or without it, though.
  5. Flashstorm1

    Flashstorm1
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    I'm going to go ahead and say that this is what the suspect process is for, and I am not exactly sure why you are trying to convince people to vote Garchomp OU to begin with, considering all of us will be making the most appropriate decision in voting for its tiering.

    Also, Garchomp and Salamence are two totally different Pokémon that function differently, so I don't see why you bother comparing the two. Salamence is pretty much forced to use Outrage if it wants to sweep on the physical side of the spectrum, suffers from Stealth Rock damage, etc. All Garchomp needs to do is switch in, hit something with a Choice Band Dragon Claw or Earthquake, and get out to come back in later. Swords Dance Garchomp is a potent sweeper in its own right as well, and isn't forced to rely on the mediocre Dragon Dance + Life Orb Outrage Salamence needs in order to deliver the same power Garchomp can do with just one Swords Dance.
  6. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    That's the whole problem, thank you for highlighting it for everyone else to read. Garchomp forces to into a situation of "what do I want to lose" and not "how can i beat it without losing". That opens up huge holes for your teammates to sweep. That leads me to this:

    Support Characteristic
    A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

    Garchomp "killing a wall and crippling another" makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. You admit this yourself, you have to lose a pokemon if you want to have a chance at beating Garchomp. No other pokemon in OU has this...they can all either be stalled out or predicted around to a point, but Garchomp can not.

    That support really isn't much of anything else compared to this:

    Offensive Characteristic
    A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

    You said it yourself, Garchomp is getting a KO and you can't stop it from doing so. In many cases, Garchomp gets multiple kills. The list of non-Uber pokemon that Garchomp outspeeds and OHKOs is monstrous...which also leads me to believe that it can sweep.

    Considering that you just made a post arguing about Garchomp that can also be applied to Rayquaza, I'd say that you are the hilarious one.

    There's a difference...you said "would probably be" for Luke, but you said it *was* for Garchomp. Even if your ridiculous assumption about random Grass Knots etc were true, how does that apply to Garchomp being uber, at all?

    Yes it is, considering that you are arguing that Garchomp is not powerful enough to be Uber. "the most reliable way of beating it is losing something....but i dont think its uber!!!" just doesn't sound right to me.


    I would make a huge post about how almost everything you said about Garchomp being OU can also be applied to Rayquaza being OU, but I really don't have the time at the moment. Maybe later.

    Free Rayquaza
  7. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Mister Gay Dolphin, see: my previous post, or read better.

    Anyway, my final response since I fucking said I wasn't going to entertain more arguments. :pirate:

    Salamence isn't crippled by Toxic Spikes, etc. Salamence is actually a much better hit-and-run pokémon than Garchomp, as it has a higher base Attack and actually threatens with Special attacks. Similarly to saying Salamence needs LO to match Garchomp's power, Garchomp actually has no method of mimicking Salamence's Speed. (Well, Scarf, but yeah...) If anything, Salamence is the one looking superior in your short comparison.
  8. zorbees

    zorbees
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    SR says hi to you using Mence to hit-n-run.
  9. Flashstorm1

    Flashstorm1
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    Why does Garchomp need special attacks to be a potent sweeper, when its boosted attacks deal more damage than using something like Draco Meteor? Also, why does it matter if Salamence gains a boost in Speed, where it is still equally as prone to being revenge killed as Garchomp would be? You forget that Garchomp can easily switch out without risk to itself, but Salamence is more prone to do so since you'll be losing nearly 33% of your health each time you switch in, factoring Sandstorm.

    On the other hand, why bother bringing up Toxic Spikes if Stealth Rock is much more common to begin with? It appears to me that you are insisting one need Toxic Spikes to even have a chance against Garchomp, which is a clear indication of its status in my opinion.

  10. yadazhai

    yadazhai

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    The argument he used for garchomp is that salamence has offensive stats and can sweep just as easily. Its obviously untrue that salamence can sweep better than raquaza. Raquaza has way more attack and special attack than anything in OU. Add a superb movepool featuring swords dance, extreemespeed, and dragon dance, and you have a monster that is definetly not OU.
  11. chenman333

    chenman333

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    Salamence is a worse hit&run attacker because of...yeah Stealth Rock. Sure he might do more damage on that 1 turn he switches in thanks to his power on both spectrums, but taking 25% to switch in? Hitting and running doesn't work so well like that.\

    I guess people already got to that.
  12. Evisu

    Evisu

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    Salamence wishes it had Ground/Dragon STAB. Earthquake and Dragon Claw are all it takes for Garchomp to rip through teams. It doesn't have to resort to running mixed or gimmick sets.

    Garchomp will always take down at least one key player in your team and there is nothing you can do about it.

    A common scenario would be Garchomp comes out against your Heatran locked into Fire Blast, you switch in Latias as Garchomp uses Sword Dance. Then lets say you attack with Dragon Pulse activating it's Haban Berry or even worse you miss because of Sand Veil. Now you have just lost what may have been your only pokemon capable of revenging Garchomp and now you're at risk of losing the game. Now sure you can apply this to many of the OU sweepers but Garchomp is unique in that your 2nd attempt to take him out can be nullified by Sand Veil.
  13. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    His whole argument revolves around Garchomp being "check-able" which means it is OU. That same thing applies to Rayquaza. Rayquaza is Stealth Rock weak and Scizor's Bullet Punch does more damage to Rayquaza than it does to Garchomp (can we please stop underestimating Garchomp's amazing 108/95/85 defenses).

    I never said Rayquaza should be OU, I said that if we applied Mr.E's reasoning for Garchomp being OU to every pokemon, we would have to allow Rayquaza into OU as well. Rayquaza has plenty of checks in OU, and it is also slower than Salamence.

    I also missed this gem from the OP:

    Garchomp was used on over 54% of teams before it was banned. The only thing your usage statistics show is that the metagame was significantly more centralized around Garchomp when it was allowed. Garchomp is on more than 1 out of every 2 teams you face...and that ISNT an issue for you?

    Free Rayquaza
  14. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    I'm not going to permit this self-indulgent, condescending, and insulting rant which you term an "essay" which you blatantly state serves not as a discussion piece; but as lecture.

    You want to make the case for Garchomp in OU? Go and do it in the Stage 3 thread where it belongs; but try to do it in a manner that doesn't come off as a "self-indulgent, condescending, and insulting rant". Also, I see you didn't qualify for the Stage 2 voting of Garchomp. If this was so important to you, why didn't you bother to even put in a little effort? Don't question the entire community if you aren't willing to put in the effort to even obtain voting rights.

    Finally, I'm locking this because the community has literally gone over this countless times point by point. See,

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36558
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42456

    Let alone the countless others I can't be bothered to find.

    edit: and this, thanks Flashstorm1

    edit 2: While you may not have broken this rule since we are technically in Stage 3, I believe the general purpose of this rule was to say don't assume you know better than the entire community, which your rant seemingly implies (your manner of presentation makes that very clear).

  15. Carl

    Carl or Varl
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    Not that I want to add gasoline to the fire here but I actually enjoyed reading this. Right or wrong, MrE's post presents an in depth argument about competitive pokemon which we hardly see anymore in this particular forum. I read it as opinionated more so than self indulgent and I think the main reason E states that he doesn't want to address arguments is because he's already made his points. He's merely stating his opinion. At the very least this isn't a completely senseless "X is uber" or "Y is not uber" whatever post.

    That said, I'm not about to step on another mod's toes here and unlock this because a) that would be rude and b) Caelum is actually correct in closing this. You've made your points MrE but maybe you should have done this in the proper place or followed the methods we're going by to determine what's uber and what isn't.
  16. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    Not to turn this into a private discussion, but I just wanted to clarify something in response to Carl since I agree with him in some respects. Oh, and I wouldn't have minded much if you unlocked it (I really only care if someone unlocks something without even posting to explain why).

    I agree with your outlook on it from a content perspective, but I disliked the overall dismissive of the community consensus and the frequent condescension with things like "gay Colin", "jrrr hilarity" etc. There is a way to disagree with people without being dismissive and disrespectful to those of differing opinions. If this would've been framed in a manner not dismissive to the community or disrespectful to individuals, I probably would've just moved it to the appropriate Stage 3 thread.
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