Free Speech: Let's do this properly

Ampharos

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Ya, I think that's what I wanted to mean.

I want to know how credible those articles are.
The Atlantic has a definite leftward skew, but they tend to hold themselves to high journalistic standards. This local news article would seem to verify the credibility of the events.

Elected representatives being susceptible to the whims of monied interests is most definitely a problem in America (and I'd argue in any society where representative government intersects with late-stage capitalism); the question is simply to what extent.
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...om-wins-support-china-after-internet-backlash

Dropping a few points here:

1. Most Chinese Chinese found her gorgeous in the Qipao.

2. Most Asian Asians think it's ok for foreigners to wear their own traditional dresses, that's why traditional dresses for rental are available at tourist attraction sites in most Asian countries.

3. Qipao does not originate from China. It originates from Manchuria, but was adopted by the Chinese when Manchuria colonized China.
The traditional dress for China is Hanfu.

4. Most Chinese Chinese found Jeremy wuliao (boring/ senseless/ have nothing better to do)

My personal opinons:
1. I think cultural appropriation should be used for things like cheap rip-off halloween costumes, or Asian looking things that simply aren't well researched.
I think a white person should be able to wear Asian things if either the designer/ maker is Asian, or someone who have properly learnt Asian culture through apprentice/ education/ educated in Asia, etc.

2. I see that a lot of times, Asian Americans tell people "this is not ok", "that is not ok", but if you ask Asian Asians, they think it's completely ok.
We call this situation "The emperor is not worried, but the eunuchs are worried to death. " (The person involved is calm and collected, but observers are very worried... at that the observers are just being stupid)
 
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tcr

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I think that the outrage over "cultural appropriation" is an inaccurate assessment to western views and not representative of what most people actually believe. It is a phenomena that has expanded with the internet to lead to shocking news articles and faux pas keyboard warrior allyship to minority groups. It's the equivalent to the super scary rad-fem aesthetic. Sure there are fringe people out there that believe in it but overall the issue is blown out of proportion, like that one show that shows crazy diets (this dude likes to only eat his UTENSILS and not real food isn't he crazy?)

On the actual topic of cultural appropriation, I think that yes there are certain things that can clearly be "appropriated" and misused and can certainly be offensive, but most cases is harmless appropriating of clothing, hairstyles, music, and whatnot. Cultural appropriation is not ok when the thing being appropriated is used by the dominant power group to stereotype or otherwise poke fun at other minority groups. An example of when it is not ok is exactly what you said, wearing a sombrero on Cinco de Mayo and a big fake mustache so you can caricature a stereotypical latino; another more extreme example of cultural appropriation is adopting blackface + wavy black hair to try to stereotype black people. An example of good cultural appropriation (re: cultural mingling) can be like when a white singer adopts a certain musical style of a different culture, such as using microtones found in Eastern music theory or by a white man making a reggae style song in homage to Bob Marley, for example.

Not really sure what this has to do with Free Speech (i guess like freedom of expression?) but that's my take on it. If you are blending cultures together to create something, or otherwise send a positive message (such as this woman using a Qipao in reference to the 1900s womens rights movements in China) then I believe that it is fine. Cultures SHOULD mingle, and often it can be an honor. Straight taking something that isn't from your culture just because you think it looks cool, not knowing the historical context behind it (re: white girl goes to Coachella in a Native American headdress) can be problematic.

I think that the reason you notice this cultural divide behind outrage versus acceptance has to do with how people are treated in those countries. For example "Asian Asians" are treated far differently in their native country than minorities are treated in America for example. less than 80 years ago Asian Americans were treated as second class, domestic threat, citizens because of their lineage, so it can feel like a real slap in the face for "the white man" who only a generation ago put Asian Americans in internment camps to suddenly adopt aspects of their culture that they find cool for their own gain. Similarly, in previously isolationist conservative cultures such as in China and Japan it can be seen as an honor for others to find aspects of their native culture so enthralling. It all has to do with historical context.

That said I am neither Asian nor any minority so I do not have that mutually shared "non-white" perspective, nor do I speak for anyone but my own views and interpretations of such a matter.
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
I think that the outrage over "cultural appropriation" is an inaccurate assessment to western views and not representative of what most people actually believe. It is a phenomena that has expanded with the internet to lead to shocking news articles and faux pas keyboard warrior allyship to minority groups. It's the equivalent to the super scary rad-fem aesthetic. Sure there are fringe people out there that believe in it but overall the issue is blown out of proportion, like that one show that shows crazy diets (this dude likes to only eat his UTENSILS and not real food isn't he crazy?)

On the actual topic of cultural appropriation, I think that yes there are certain things that can clearly be "appropriated" and misused and can certainly be offensive, but most cases is harmless appropriating of clothing, hairstyles, music, and whatnot. Cultural appropriation is not ok when the thing being appropriated is used by the dominant power group to stereotype or otherwise poke fun at other minority groups. An example of when it is not ok is exactly what you said, wearing a sombrero on Cinco de Mayo and a big fake mustache so you can caricature a stereotypical latino; another more extreme example of cultural appropriation is adopting blackface + wavy black hair to try to stereotype black people. An example of good cultural appropriation (re: cultural mingling) can be like when a white singer adopts a certain musical style of a different culture, such as using microtones found in Eastern music theory or by a white man making a reggae style song in homage to Bob Marley, for example.

Not really sure what this has to do with Free Speech (i guess like freedom of expression?) but that's my take on it. If you are blending cultures together to create something, or otherwise send a positive message (such as this woman using a Qipao in reference to the 1900s womens rights movements in China) then I believe that it is fine. Cultures SHOULD mingle, and often it can be an honor. Straight taking something that isn't from your culture just because you think it looks cool, not knowing the historical context behind it (re: white girl goes to Coachella in a Native American headdress) can be problematic.

I think that the reason you notice this cultural divide behind outrage versus acceptance has to do with how people are treated in those countries. For example "Asian Asians" are treated far differently in their native country than minorities are treated in America for example. less than 80 years ago Asian Americans were treated as second class, domestic threat, citizens because of their lineage, so it can feel like a real slap in the face for "the white man" who only a generation ago put Asian Americans in internment camps to suddenly adopt aspects of their culture that they find cool for their own gain. Similarly, in previously isolationist conservative cultures such as in China and Japan it can be seen as an honor for others to find aspects of their native culture so enthralling. It all has to do with historical context.

That said I am neither Asian nor any minority so I do not have that mutually shared "non-white" perspective, nor do I speak for anyone but my own views and interpretations of such a matter.
I placed this here because I think "cultural appropriation" is a liberal thing.

You are correct about how Asians can be treated differently in different countries.
But even people from Hong Kong find it completely for white people to wear the qipao dress.
(White on Asian racism was rampant during colonization, which was not that long ago. I experienced colonization first handed)
 

Soul Fly

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2. I see that a lot of times, Asian Americans tell people "this is not ok", "that is not ok", but if you ask Asian Asians, they think it's completely ok.
We call this situation "The emperor is not worried, but the eunuchs are worried to death. " (The person involved is calm and collected, but observers are very worried... at that the observers are just being stupid)
Opinions aside, there is something incredibly hurtful about the power dynamic between native Asians being seen as "emperors" and Asian Americans as "eunuchs." As if they have some lesser claim over their history, and deserve not to be taken as seriously. FWIW "Asian Asians" (as you call them) living in big homogeneous population blocks are unlikely to know the experience of being a minority and living with everyday racism. Such a notion exacerbates marginalisation twofold.

I think it would be better if our adjudication of appropriation were influenced by arguments and not claims to authority made on the basis of some form of cultural/genetic purity.
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
Opinions aside, there is something incredibly hurtful about the power dynamic between native Asians being seen as "emperors" and Asian Americans as "eunuchs." As if they have some lesser claim over their history, and deserve not to be taken as seriously. FWIW "Asian Asians" (as you call them) living in big homogeneous population blocks are unlikely to know the experience of being a minority and living with everyday racism. Such a notion exacerbates marginalisation twofold.

I think it would be better if our adjudication of appropriation were influenced by arguments and not claims to authority made on the basis of some form of cultural/genetic purity.
I can see what you mean. But the phrase is an idiom, so the phrase itself doesn't suggest native Asians as "emperor" or vice versa.

However, quite a significant amount of Asian Asians do think that Asian Americans aren't "real" Asians, and think that they have some lesser claim over the history, and think that they shouldn't be allowed to represent Asians.

This attitude is even worse towards Asian Americans who can't read or write their native language.
Some people think that the latter are fails, and shouldn't call themselves Asians.

But on the other hand, there are some Asians who will kinda worship American born Asians.
(But not as exaggerated as white worship)
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
You cannot cite an idiom then backtrack by saying you don't mean what the idiom actually implies (if so then why use it in the first place?).

The problem here is that you are privileging the "Asian Asians" as the "person involved" and sidelining the sentiments of the Asian American as mere "observers" (your own words this time round) i.e not "involved" or capable of claiming Asian culture as a stakeholder the same way an "Asian Asian" can. Inasmuch these observers "are just being stupid" (again your own words).

It is immaterial what "a significant amount" of "Asian Asians" think, but rather with why you think this problematic, arbitrary binary that renders Asian Americans as "observers" who are being "stupid" as opposed to the real "person involved" ("Asian Asians") in the matter is something that holds water intellectually.

I'm sure you mean well, but it would be fruitful if you took the time to reconsider assumptions instead of resorting to lateral moves and disowning things you post as other people's opinions the moment you are called out. It's irresponsible to broadcast views uncritically.
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
You cannot cite an idiom then backtrack by saying you don't mean what the idiom actually implies (if so then why use it in the first place?).

The problem here is that you are privileging the "Asian Asians" as the "person involved" and sidelining the sentiments of the Asian American as mere "observers" (your own words this time round) i.e not "involved" or capable of claiming Asian culture as a stakeholder the same way an "Asian Asian" can. Inasmuch these observers "are just being stupid" (again your own words).

It is immaterial what "a significant amount" of "Asian Asians" think, but rather with why you think this problematic, arbitrary binary that renders Asian Americans as "observers" who are being "stupid" as opposed to the real "person involved" ("Asian Asians") in the matter is something that holds water intellectually.

I'm sure you mean well, but it would be fruitful if you took the time to reconsider assumptions instead of resorting to lateral moves and disowning things you post as other people's opinions the moment you are called out. It's irresponsible to broadcast views uncritically.
I realized it can be hurtful, but I don't see why people are "claiming" Asian culture as "theirs" ... especially if they don't represent the majority?
Can anyone with Asian descent "claim" the culture as theirs, despite what other Asians feel?

More over, in this incident, the accuser doesn't know how to read Chinese-- how much does he know about Chinese culture if he doesn't read Chinese?
Very few things are being translated into English, and most English articles about Asian things are written from a white perspective (unless it's being written in recent years)

Why does he think he owns Asian culture?
=======

I mean like, if somebody tells you that he knows everything about America, but he hasn't been living in America in any point of his lifetime.
What would you feel about it?
 
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TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Cresselia I understand what you’re saying but what’s at play here isn’t like people asking China for permission to do a thing it’s people taking Chinese customs with no knowledge or respect for them and then China retroactively saying its okay from a distance and saying those who are Chinese and closer to the situation both proximity and emotionally aren’t allowed to protect Chinese culture from disrespect and aren’t even allowed to claim their heritage as their own.

Think of it another way imagine say, idk, Russia invaded the border towns of China in the northwest, and heartland Chinese people were saying “well they’ve live their whole lives away from us in the center they’re barely even Chinese, if Russia chooses to appreciate that land more they’re welcome within our borders.

Fundamentally appropriation is not a respectful act and even if the prevailing opinion from China is they don’t see it as a disrespectful move they actually aren’t close enough to see it for what it really is.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Cresselia I understand what you’re saying but what’s at play here isn’t like people asking China for permission to do a thing it’s people taking Chinese customs with no knowledge or respect for them and then China retroactively saying its okay from a distance and saying those who are Chinese and closer to the situation both proximity and emotionally aren’t allowed to protect Chinese culture from disrespect and aren’t even allowed to claim their heritage as their own.

Think of it another way imagine say, idk, Russia invaded the border towns of China in the northwest, and heartland Chinese people were saying “well they’ve live their whole lives away from us in the center they’re barely even Chinese, if Russia chooses to appreciate that land more they’re welcome within our borders.

Fundamentally appropriation is not a respectful act and even if the prevailing opinion from China is they don’t see it as a disrespectful move they actually aren’t close enough to see it for what it really is.
So wearing a dress is equivalent to a foreign country invading you?
Also, why can "POC" wear Jeans when it was invented by a Jew? Isn't that anti-semitic cultural appropriation? No, of course not, because Jews don't waste their time whining about pointless nonsense.
 

GatoDelFuego

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Also, why can "POC" wear Jeans when it was invented by a Jew? Isn't that anti-semitic cultural appropriation? No, of course not, because Jews don't waste their time whining about pointless nonsense.
Of the possibly hundreds of arguments and metaphors against cultural appropriation, why of all things jews and blue jeans? That's about as far from culture as I could possibly imagine
 

dwarfstar

mindless philosopher
their time is better spent bombing palestine and destabilising the middle east
most Jews have no influence on Israeli actions and policy, and in fact there's plenty of antizionist Jews who oppose Israel's colonial crimes and work toward a free Palestine. if we could not bring antisemitic generalizations into our pro-Palestinian rhetoric i'd appreciate it
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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Yes I'm sure Israelis don't have eyes and ears.

I don't know enough about the country's politics and civil society, so sure, there is a chance that the entire nation is blissfully unaware and helpless about what its democratically elected government and military are up to. But I'd say the odds of that are astronomical to say the least.

Asek was maybe being blase but scrutinising the complicity of the masses isn't antisemitism. Then again we've always had double-standards about these things *cue muslims having to justify the peacefulness of their community after every terror attack involving ISIS etc* so ehh... does it even matter at this point lol
 

dwarfstar

mindless philosopher
wasn't talking about Israelis specifically, and i'm aware the majority over there are generally in favor of continuing colonial expansion and the repression of Palestinian resistance. it's the casual conflation of Jews with Israel and Zionism that i objected to, because in a broader context that kinda thing lays a foundation for antisemitism to rise within the Palestinian solidarity movement
 

Myzozoa

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wasn't talking about Israelis specifically, and i'm aware the majority over there are generally in favor of continuing colonial expansion and the repression of Palestinian resistance. it's the casual conflation of Jews with Israel and Zionism that i objected to, because in a broader context that kinda thing lays a foundation for antisemitism to rise within the Palestinian solidarity movement
but it doesn't, imo

after all many jews actively oppose israel

so to say that youre worried anti-semitism is gonna rise in palestinian solidarity movements is strange, imo, since there are already plenty of jews active in those movements

the worry is that anti-semitism will rise in the broader context, not in the context of palestinian solidarity movements. like, there are already laws in place for prosecuting criticism of israel as anti-semitism, I think we jews are safe enough on that front, but I'm pretty privileged so I could be wrong.

this rhetoric prefigures blaming palestinian solidarity movements for complicity in the rise of white supremacist conspiracy theorists and their movements, but they don't have anything to do with each other. Palestinian solidarity movements are aware that Zionism, anti-semitism, and white supremacy are so inter-linked that all must be acted against simultaneously to have any chance of success in the Palestinian context.

i find this type of thinking profoundly condescending as well as naive, it smells like leftover Zionist propaganda that got floated when there was anti-semitic incident at a college campus and the campus Hillel (an arm of zionist propaganda and jewish heresy) asked for donations and people were like 'we gotta let these jewish students know we care, so we're going to donate to an organization that excludes anti-zionist jews, and if you mention that the organization is zionist, you're an anti-semite.' miss me w that plz.

of course the conflation of jews with israel and zionism is harmful, but I think it's unlikely that Palestinian solidarity movements would trade on that conflation because that very rhetoric is typical of the Israeli Zionist project they oppose
 
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dwarfstar

mindless philosopher
this rhetoric prefigures blaming palestinian solidarity movements for complicity in the rise of white supremacist conspiracy theorists and their movements, but they don't have anything to do with each other. Palestinian solidarity movements are aware that Zionism, anti-semitism, and white supremacy are so inter-linked that all must be acted against simultaneously to have any chance of success in the Palestinian context.

i find this type of thinking profoundly condescending as well as naive, it smells like leftover Zionist propaganda that got floated when there was anti-semitic incident at a college campus and the campus Hillel (an arm of zionist propaganda and jewish heresy) asked for donations and people were like 'we gotta let these jewish students know we care, so we're going to donate to an organization that excludes anti-zionist jews, and if you mention that the organization is zionist, you're an anti-semite.' miss me w that plz.

of course the conflation of jews with israel and zionism is harmful, but I think it's unlikely that Palestinian solidarity movements would trade on that conflation because that very rhetoric is typical of the Israeli Zionist project they oppose
fair criticism for sure. i specified because of the context here and the fact that outside of antizionist movements any antisemitism that comes up will likely be from different sources, but i see what you mean about the rhetoric subtly placing the blame where it doesn't belong and assuming naivete or ignorance on the part of Palestinian solidarity activists. definitely not my intent there and i'll be more careful to avoid that kinda bullshit in the future. thanks for keeping me accountable
 

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