Metagame Full Potential

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
unbanning zygod would be the equivalent of unbanning something bulkier then giratina specially.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 382-450 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 313-369 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

okay, so i find it really common that people see zygardes special defense and think its "not bulky specially" when in actuality, its bulkier then giratina. my question would be "is ice beam/fairies common enough to warrant unbanning zygod" because its almost required to hope to stop him. especially now that he actually has a much stronger offensive presence then in OU or even ubers.

honestly, i find the idea that zygarde is even remotely considered for unbanning in any OU based meta to be insane. especially when i look at see its special defense rivaling giratina. and its physical defense being comparable to chansey's special defense with eviolite.
 
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Blaziken makes sense, no problems with seeing it back. For the most part I'm okay with Aegislash coming back. King's Shield will always be cancerous, but whatever, very few of us will ever have to actually deal with it for a long time.

I'm very very very perplexed at the Marshadow unban. You can now eschew Attack EVs for bulk, it gets Technician Hidden Power (aka the thing that currently makes Scizor the best Pokemon in the meta) AND Shadow Sneak, you still have Spectral Thief and perfect STAB coverage but now you hit harder. I can very easily see Marshadow being better in Full Potential than it is in standard. If it's being unbanned because of its lack of good FP boosting moves, it still has Spectral Thief. I understand that this will very rarely help against Speed boosters, but it's still one of the best moves GameFreak has ever introduced on a very fast and powerful Pokemon.

Oh, I'm an idiot, you can give Marshadow a Focus Sash, letting it Spectral Thief Speed boosts safely. This should not be unbanned and I don't know what the hell the council was thinking unbanning it.
 

branflakes

formerly Branflakes325
is a Tiering Contributor
The Marshadow thing confuses me as well. Right off the bat 125 base speed plus scarf is still really really good. Scarf Spectral thief destroys 80% of the relevant metagame due to lack of resists, while Superpower basically OHKOs anything that can switch in on Spectral Thief. Spectral Thief in itself discourages the use of a lot of boosting sweepers, including pretty much anything slower than scarf base 125, all while ignoring defensive boosts AND making those defensive boosting pokemons' attacks weaker.

Marshadow also has:
-Priority in technician Shadow Sneak
-Immunity to Fake Out, Extremespeed and Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave
-A lot of viable but not mandatory options in its 4th moveslot including Shadow Ball, Drain Punch, HP Fighting/Focus Blast, Sucker Punch, Pursuit

Has this been tested at all? If so, is it not as busted as it looks on paper? Is there a reason why it wasn't brought up for discussion first?
 
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nv

The Lost Age
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
I figured I would chime in on the two main issues people seem to be having, so here goes nothing.


I understand why people are a little hesistant as to why this got unbanned, but the main issue, as I brought up with the rest of the council, is that Marshadow has no way to boost its Speed therefore relying on a Choice Scarf to have power or using its Attack stat, which isn't a good idea in Full Potential. I understand Schpoonman brought up the idea of it running Focus Sash to guarantee stealing boosts, but with SR so common, and chip damage as well, it is hard to keep that Focus Sash up and guarantee to stop a sweep with Spectral Thief unlike say Alakazam, who has Magic Guard to prevent breaking its Sash. Marshadow also provides a potentially healthy alternative to stopping certain sweeps from Def/SpD boosting mons thanks to it being so naturally fast and stealing their boosts while still allowing Trick Room and Tailwind to be just as potent as they are now. I know branflakes brings up some good points with the immunity to things like Fake Out, ESpeed, and Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave, but it still loses to the most common priority in the metagame such as Sylveon's Quick Attack or Kecleon's Shadow Sneak.
252+ SpD Assault Vest Pixilate Sylveon Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpD Assault Vest Protean Kecleon Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 246-290 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

While I do believe that Marshadow is more of a borderline case (and probably should've been discussed alongside Zygarde-Complete), I feel like we need to have more time playing with it and actually gathering replays despite this not being OMotM anymore. If it is deemed too powerful, it can be rebanned in the future.


I understand the concerns from Lcass4919 because Zygarde, once it has transformed, can take a lot of hits, but the biggest issue is it has to get under 50% to transform, which is harder than it looks due to everything hitting so much harder now. Once it transforms, it does take a lot to take it down, but with everything being mixed, and a less-than-stellar Special Defense stat, it has issues to keep up with the pace of the metagame. Fairies are pretty common with mons like Whimsicott and Sylveon around and Ice coverage isn't terribly common, but it does give that bit of mindgames with the metagame that could prove healthy or maybe not. I see that it tanks a Swellow's Boomburst, but that is actually good considering most resists still die to either Swellow's coverage or get worn down very easily, which is why Swellow is such a top threat (having Stakataka now helps to deter it spamming Boomburst in fact). Overall, I see the pros and cons of this mon and I definitely feel like this, along with Marshadow, deserve some testing so we can determine if they can be healthy or hurtful to a wonderful OM.

Anyways, these are my thoughts. I do see the issues of both sides, but I also feel like people aren't giving Marshadow a chance (the tour we had the last day of FP as OMotM proved Marsh to not be as helpful as we wanted it to be) so I would like more opinions and potentially some replays showing how Marshadow is broken to show us, the council, that we made a good, or bad, decision.