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Garchomp

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by Hawkstar, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
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    With Garchomp's unban in DW OU, the ragequit machine of lore from the early BW days is back on the prowl, and performs just as well. Sand Veil in combination with some of the most excellently distributed stats in Pokemon history make Garchomp a force to be feared. Each of it's viable sets has the potential to smash the other's counters, which may not even matter anyway if Sand Veil activates. The Choice Scarf set returns to wreak havoc and troll base 101 Speed Pokemon and below, hitting them with a powerful STAB or coverage move. The SDYache set can set up a Swords Dance on the switch and OHKO any Ice-type attack-wielding Pokemon coming in to force it out, with Starmie, Weavile, and Mamoswine coming to mind. As well as being an excellent setup sweeper, it makes for an excellent Shell Smash receiver, as its competent Special Attack stat allows it to use Fire Blast in conjunction with its STAB moves and another coverage move to sweep at +2/+2/+2. Garchomp is going to be a huge threat if it stays in the tier, so any half-competitive team should prepare for it.

    Garchomp (M) @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge / Outrage
    - Fire Fang / Outrage​


    Garchomp's Choice Scarf set was highly feared in early BW, as it could outspeed pretty much every common scarfer in the tier outside of Latios, Terrakion, and Gengar. As only Latios could OHKO it, ScarfChomp could take its pick of targets almost without fear. In today's metagame, his fearsome reputation still holds up. Dragon Claw and Earthquake are his two high-powered and reliable STAB moves with which to hit everything in the metagame for neutral damage except for Skarmory and Bronzong. Stone Edge puts the hurt on +1 Gyarados and Volcarona better than his other moves, but its accuracy can be a letdown. Fire Fang makes Garchomp's coverage perfect by hitting Bronzong and Skarmory for super effective damage, but not much. On the other hand, though, it is amazingly useful for getting past the likes of Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress, who are all at least 2HKOed outside of rain. If you feel the extra coverage is unnecessary, Outrage can go over either of those two moves. It provides a meaty 60 BP of extra power to smash everything that is not a Steel-type with, at the cost of being locked in and confused at the end of his rampage. Exchanging the scarf for a Choice Band can also work, since its Speed stat of 102 already beats a huge chunk of the metagame, and instead opting to beef up its massive base 130 Attack stat. With a Band boost, it hits harder in 2 turns than an SD Garchomp set could, making it a wonderous wallbreaker.

    Garchomp (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw​


    This was, without a doubt, the most annoying set in OU before Garchomp's ban. While the first set focused on Garchomp's excellent revenge killing abilities, this one focuses on Sand Veil, which boosts its Evasion by 20% in the sand. When paired with Tyranitar, this set can become nigh-unstoppable, and with the super-speedy Excadrill to clean up the mess that Garchomp leaves behind, it's no wonder action was taken to prevent this trio from breaking the metagame. Substitute allows Garchomp to scout switch-ins and movesets, while trying for a Sand Veil miss. Once Garchomp ends a turn with a Substitute up, Swords Dance will double its Attack for a sweep with its two amazing STAB moves. Skarmory is a huge issue for this set since it resists or is immune to every attack move on this set and can Whirlwind Garchomp away. Magnezone and chandelure can trap and destroy Skarmory, but due to Chandelure's massive influence on the tier, Shed Shell is a common sight on it.

    If you think this set could use more bulk, then exchanging the Attack EVs for HP EVs works as well, as the Swords dance boosts help patch up its lowered Attack stat while the extra HP allows it to create 101 HP Subs, meaning it can set up on the pink blobs easily.

    Garchomp (M) @ Yache Berry
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Fang​


    This DPP relic still performs wonderfully in Gen 5, with no notable new Ice-types being introduced. By catching a Swords Dance on the switch or by setting up on an Ice-type move wielding wall such as Gliscor, Garchomp can double, triple, or even quadruple its Attack stat with ease. Then, once enough boosts have been acquired, Garchomp can tear through the opposing team. Outrage is a very powerful STAB move, and gets the nod over Dragon Claw since Garchomp has Fire Fang and earthquake to remove Steel-types with. If you really hate Outrage, Dragon Claw is still a reliable, if not somewhat weak, option over it. Earthquake knocks Heatran, Infernape, Terrakion, and Excadrill out of the ballpark, while being able to survive a hit from each of them thanks to its amazing bulk, the Yache berry, and a possible Sand Veil miss. Fire Fang OHKOes Ferrothorn and Scizor 100% of the time at +2 in the sand, while Forretress can only be OHKOed if Sturdy is broken. Even the bulkiest of Bronzong are also 2HKOed, while
    Skarmory avoids a 2HKO at +2. Even if Garchomp gets 3 Swords dances, Skarmory can still phaze away Garchomp, so getting rid of it makes sweeping a ton easier.

    Garchomp (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Outrage / Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge / Swords Dance
    - Fire Blast​


    This set is meant to be used with a Shell Smash under its belt. With a +2 in both attacking stats and Speed, Garchomp becomes demi-godly and ridiculously hard to stop. Outrage hits like a truck with a Life Orb and a doubled Attack stat, OHKOing anything that doesn't resist it. Earthquake complements it by removing most Steel-types from play. Fire Blast melts the others that it hits harder, such as Forretress, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Bronzong, and especially Skarmory, who can no longer phaze this set if Sturdy is broken. Stone Edge is a coverage move that hits Gyarados for an OHKO if it tries to Intimidate Garchomp, but Swords Dance can go in its place if you think you need the extra power, while still helping to destroy Gyarados. Ice Shard users are the main threat, since without its precious Yache Berry, the vast majority of them can OHKO Garchomp or force it to lose all its boosts. Choice Scarf Ditto is the only thing that can outspeed this Garchomp, who can steal all of your boosts and turn the game right back around.
  2. Tobes

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    Bumping because I'm surprised Garchomp has had so little discussion seeing as it's a fuckmothering land shark and all.

    SubSD seems to be the most common set atm, and for good reason. While Skarmory completely cockblocks it it's still a very dangerous threat, fuck sand veil, etc. etc. It's very potent both mid and late-game (and it can be a nightmare of a last mon to deal with when you can't phaze it out).

    I am very partial to CB Chomp. The thing hits like a fucking truck. Only Skarmory, Bonzong, and Gliscor can really switch in safely, and the latter gets 2HKOed by Outrage if it's not Poison Heal Gliscor. Everything else gets absolutely mauled by Earthquake or Outrage. Scarf Chomp is also a good cleaner with hazard support since it outpaces most other Scarfers.

    Support Garchomp seems like an interesting option on non-sand teams looking for a Stealth Rock user. Garchomp certainly has many chances to set it up, and on sun teams it can even use Fire Blast to disuade Skarmory from switching in.

    Edit: Shed Shell is a necessity of Skarm imo.
  3. HardCore

    HardCore

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    There isn't much to discuss he has nearly every set listed. Garchomp will pretty much always be viable in any meta-game and his Standard ability annoys the ish out of everyone. Uber not in my opinion, however Sand Veil has got to go. I have been seeing bulky Sub SD Garchomp instead of just 252 attack 252 speed. All sets very effective however.

    I don't think Skarmory is really a major factor in Garchomps success thus far due to the amount of Chandelure running around. So Garchomp is a big threat that everyone needs a check.
  4. Harsha

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    Bringing this back because
    Garchomp is a beast. Sand Veil hax (while frowned upon) can sometimes be a lifesaver. I've been using the SubSD set with a spread of 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe to good success, as it tanks hits like a boss and retaliates with a good amount of power (598 Atk after 1 SD). Do you think that a walling set with Rough Skin is viable?
  5. BTzz

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    Garchomp @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Veil / Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 120 SpD / 60 Spe
    Jolly nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake
    - Protect / Aqua Tail

    Been having a lot of fun with the Chomp Tank from the old OU analysis. This set takes full advantage of Garchomp’s fantastic bulk, which is statistically similar to Swampert and Heatran. Garchomp also has a more than capable support movepool. With Dragon Tail, Garchomp can abuse its awesome STAB combo while including Protect, SR and Phazing all on the same set. Very few Pokemon create substitutes able to hold up to Garchomp's Dragon Tail. A general lack of weaknesses while combining power, speed and bulk makes it a terrific checks to a number of threats including Heatran, Tyranitar, Terrakion and Excadrill. The EVs are set first to outrun neutral base 90 speed Pokemon such as Lucario, while maximizing overall durability. 76 Def EVs let it survive a +2 Earthquake from Balloon Excadrill.
  6. Harsha

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    Hmm, that's quite an interesting set. NixHex, V0x, and I discussed something similar on IRC with an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe and Substitute and Dragon Tail. Either way, he should be sure to check this out. I'll test it too :)
  7. NixHex

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    I know those sets aren't being QC'd or what not but you should not advertise Fire Blast with a Jolly nature and 0 investment. Here are some calcs (from OU sets but likely not very different from DW ones) if you are interested:

    Bronzong (OU Tank) Fire Blast 28.4 - 33.72% Outrage 23.66 - 28.1%
    Bronzong (OU Dual Screens) Fire Blast 30.76 - 36.68% Outrage 23.07 - 27.21%
    Skarmory (OU Specially Defensive) Fire Blast 35.92 - 42.51% Outrage 21.85 - 26.04%
    Skarmory (OU Physically Defensive) Fire Blast 51.49 - 61.07% Outrage 17.06 - 20.05%

    It takes care of Physically Defensive Skarmory, but against any of those other Pokemon it's probably more worth it to just switch out. Fire Fang is better in nearly all cases.
  8. Calm Pokemaster

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    Agreeing with NixHex; unboosted Fire Fang at least has a small chance to 2HKO standard Bronzong [43.19 - 51.47%, which is a 2HKO most of the time with SR] and SpD Skarmory [41.91 - 49.7%, sure 2HKO with SR]. You obviously lose out against Physically Defensive Skarmory too [31.73 - 37.72%], but this will force it to Roost and allowing you to switch to something like Genesect or even set up an SD and destroy Skarmory.

    After some testing on the ladder today, I found that bulky Garchomp fits particularly well on sun teams needing a bulky attacker. It plays kinda like an anti-sun mon on a sun team, as it deals with common sun sweepers pretty well. Here's the set which I ran -

    Garchomp @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Fang

    This can take sun-boosted Fire-type attacks to an extent and either KO or phaze out sun attackers like Heatran, Venusaur, and Volcarona; +2 Adamant Air Balloon / Leftovers Blaziken only OHKOes with HJK with a maximum damage roll as well. I changed the EVs to ensure that Blaziken won't OHKO me that easily while also ensuring that Heatran and Genesect don't OHKO with HP Ice or Ice Beam, respectively. Fire Fang is for taking advantage of the sun and trolling Genesect; it also OHKOes Balloon Excadrill. I can also 2HKO offensive Volcarona if I avoid the burn from Flame Body; if SR is up I OHKO of course.
  9. Tobes

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    You guys are overlooking Garchomp on sun teams. That 50% boost to Fire-type moves is great against Steel-types. Meanwhile the Fire-type teammates can all take Ice Beams / HP Ices for Garchomp, and sun gives Garchomp a pseudo-resistance to Water-type moves.

    I also like Garchomp on rain teams, due to Aqua Tail. In rain it's amazing against things like Gliscor. It also gives you a way to OHKO Air Balloon Excadrill, which can be quite valuable. Both Fire Fang and Aqua Tail in their respective weathers are pretty cool, but they get really good when Garchomp is hitting as hard as it can.

    Garchomp @ Life Orb
    Sand Veil
    Jolly 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage / Dual Chop
    - Fire Fang / Aqua Tail

    This thing is absolutely devastating against slower teams. +2 LO Outrage is ludicrously powerful, and EQ isn't too far behind. Example:

    +2 LO Garchomp Outrage vs 252/252 Impish Gliscor: 88.4% - 104.5%

    Yeah.

    Fire Fang / Aqua Tail of course help dent things like Skarmory / Bronzong with respective sun / rain up. Paralysis support is cool for this thing, because this set absolutely goes to town on teams slower than it.
  10. Taylor

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    I think the Substitute Garchomp set should make more use out of its bulky potential, where 188 EVs can help you reach 404 HP; helping with any SToss/Night Shade coming your way, but brings the best out of Chomp's defensive capabilities. I'd be tempted to use more HP should the team I use it in support this set well enough for it to not be walled completely by the likes of Skarmory.

    Life Orb exposes Garchomp's item early but by that time, it's too late to crawl back into the game. I just feel a Pokemon such as Garchomp doesn't need to rely on Life Orb, but its coverage allows it to hit everything in its sight (bar Air Balloon Heatran, which gets caught off by Aqua Tail) so it's a viable option.

    I'm still hyped on using it with Focus Sash because it outspeeds those damn Sash Genesect one-on-one, and you can save it for later if the opponent manages to put your Excadrill in a tough situation where you are prepared to let it faint after using Rapid Spin in a last ditch effort to give Garchomp the freedom to go on an attacking-spree.
  11. shrang

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    Making 101 HP Subs is tempting, but I see little point because 1) Night Shade is very rare, and Chansey/Blissey shouldn't be staying in on Garchomp anyway. Garchomp is bulky as hell without investment anyway, so it's probably just better off with max Attack so it can kill more things uninvested when it needs to.
  12. Taylor

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    You see that was my initial thought but I figured you should try to bring Garchomp in when you feel you can Substitute, and with the extra investment it gives you more opportunities to do so. It's either walled hard or it should e setting up a Swords Dance and sweeping. If sand is present and you're carrying some bulk with Leftovers, it becomes a whole new threat.

    It's not as physically bulky as Swampert but matches Garchomp's HP equally. It needs to remain within sand otherwise I'd opt for Rough Skin, which does seem a little tempting.

    Really, blocking N-Shade/S-Toss is just an added bonus.
  13. lordkira

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    What are some significant 1HKO's and 2HKO's lost from opting for the 252hp/252speed instead of the 252attack/252 speed spread? There ought to be some.
  14. Harsha

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    One that I have noticed is Breloom, and there are definitely more, but Garchomp has an easier time setting up with HP EVs.
  15. NixHex

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    I've tried Sub+SD Garchomp with 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 SpD with Impish and it's surprisingly effective. However, Skarmory just sits there and laughs at Dragon Claw while setting hazards then phazing it. As a side note, I don't like Outrage because Garchomp just cannot stand to waste that added bulk with a few turns of confusion.
  16. Taylor

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    The problem with any Garchomp that doesn't run a Fire-type move is the likes of Skamory holding Shed Shell, so you can't trap with Chandelure. Excadrill also sets up a Swords Dance while Garchomp has to pop the Air Balloon; the bulkier spread can survive Excadrill's Earthquake at +2; however not with the standard 252/252 spread.
  17. Hawkstar

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    Did you add the +2 boost to Special Attack? What about it's Life Orb? The only set I advertise Fire Blast on is the Shell Smash receiver set. The +2 in Special Attack turns all of those into 2HKOs, with Skarmory only living through it because of Sturdy. Here are the calcs I did:

    0SpAtk Life Orb +2 Garchomp (-SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/0SpDef Sturdy Skarmory (Physically Defensive) (Neutral): 99% - 99% (333 - 333 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    0SpAtk Life Orb +2 Garchomp (-SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (Specially Defensive) (+SpDef): 89% - 99% (300 - 333 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    0SpAtk Life Orb +2 Garchomp (-SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/92SpDef Levitate Bronzong (OU Tank) (+SpDef): 72% - 85% (246 - 290 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    0SpAtk Life Orb +2 Garchomp (-SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/92SpDef Levitate Bronzong (OU Dual Screens) (Neutral): 79% - 94% (270 - 318 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
  18. jrrrrrrr

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    Garchomp is the one exception to the rule. All the other Dragons have SpAtk stats high enough to warrant using Fire Blast over Fire Fang, but Garchomp's Atk is so much higher that FB isn't worth it. Everything else should be using Fire Blast.
  19. Vemane

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    I feel as if chomp is quite overrated. Besides its excellent typing and haxy ability, what does it really have going for it?

    102 speed is nothing like it used to be
    Why use scarf chomp when you could use scarf haxy? Or scarf mence? Both have very similar stats and better abilities.

    It is too slow for a sd set outside of sand unless facing stall, and it really wont be putting a dent in hippo+skarm anyways.

    Landorus is an (arguably) better scarfer due to the power boost

    It really is quite... average this gen. If only it got dd :( It could be a haxorus with less power but better stabs.
  20. Omicron

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    There are just a few things wrong with your post. First of all, Garchomp sits at an amazing speed tier, allowing it to outspeed up to Landorus. It also outspeeds Genesect, Dragonite, and Haxorus. In fact, it is the fastest Dragon-type with the exception of the Lati twins. Garchomp has one of the highest Attack stats in the game, and Haxorus's slightly higher Attack doesn't matter when it gets outsped and KOed by Genesect. Sand Veil is just another reason why Garchomp is so dangerous. In response to your point about not having Dragon Dance, Garchomp doesn't necessarily need it, especially because if it did, it would be extremely broken. Garchomp already has Swords Dance, and that makes it extremely powerful. In addition, Garchomp is probably the most bulky Dragon after Multiscale Dragonite, it can definitely take a hit or two, and even random Ice attacks if you give it Yache Berry.

    Tl;dr

    Garchomp was banned in OU for a reason, but in DW the metagame is balanced with its presence.
  21. Hawkstar

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    Not quite. Garchomp has just enough of a Special Attack stat to make use of Fire Blast. Jolly Garchomp's SpA stat is about half it's Attack, while Fire Blast is roughly twice as powerful as Fire Fang. Therefore, assuming that they are hitting a target of equal Special Defense and defense, Fire Fang will only slightly outdamage Fire Blast. However, Garchomp's Fire-type move has 2 main targets: Skarmory and Bronzong. Skarmory definitely doesn't have equal defenses and is hit way harder by Fire Blast than Fire Fang. Bronzong usually runs a more specially defensive set, but it is still 2HKOed by Fire Blast at +2 Special Attack with a Life Orb. Sure, Fire Fang has more PP, accuracy, and a low chance to flinch, but the fact that it can't beat Skarmory, even after receiving a Shell Smash, makes Fire Blast a perfectly viable option.
  22. Taylor

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    Swords Dance and Fire Fang hits Bronzong and Skarmory enough, but aside from Air Balloon Heatran etc., (don't know if anyone's tried it or not?) they're really the only checks to Garchomp with Leftovers and Substitute in sand.

    Unless you use like Fire Blast with Choice Scarf, the thought of Fire Blast can't make as good use as Swords Dance varients; it makes me think of ChainChomp.
  23. Hawkstar

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    Once again, I have only put Fire Blast on the Shell Smash set. That is the only set I am advocating it for. Nothing else. I know it is far outclassed on the SD set, but that's irrelevant. I put it on the Shell Smash set because Skarmory can still wall a +2 LO Fire Fang, but not +2 LO Fire Blast, and then phaze Garchomp out which ruins the SmashPass.
  24. shrang

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    Has anyone used Salac Berry on the SubSD set? You're pretty much only missing out on the Leftovers recovery, but in return, if you get the chance to get down to 25%, you're getting a +1 Speed boost, which means shit like Genesect and Chandelure would be forced to eat shit. Yes, priority still gets you (provided it hits), but otherwise, you have a much better sweeping potential. Just play it like you would with the standard SubSD set, switch into a Pokemon that can't hurt you much and set up a Sub. SD as they break your Sub and then try and fish for a miss. If they miss, great, you get a free kill, if not, just Sub down to 25% for the Salac boost then kill the opposing mon.
  25. Taylor

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    I used that Garchomp first during this suspect phase because I was well aware Salac Berry had not been legitimately available to us this generation, and as soon as Dream World opened up I figured I'd see if it was still potent and would act as a surprise for my opponent when the time came.

    It may still be prone to priority, Excadrill, ScarfTKion and Deoxys-S, etc. but I have been impressed with it's ability to win many one-on-one situations purely because the opponent thinks you're simply trying to evade the attack, when all you're mainly looking for is the Salac Berry boost to take advantage of the following turn.

    Predictably I used it with Chandelure because Garchomp can Substitute freely and begin to Swords Dance under the right circumstance; you just don't want Skarmory coming in, laying hazards and phazing you out at will and messing with your Garchomp's health outside of your control.

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