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Discussion in 'OM Archive' started by Eevee General, May 25, 2013.
Was talking about altaria, SS is better for Gigas
I can't believe I overlooked V-Create. Blaziken's V-create in the sun OHKOs just about everything, but it's still nothing more than a glass cannon. It is also reliant on Sun to get the OHKOs, and Ninetales is still cleanly beaten by TTar and Toed. Keldeo's spoutspam and Thundurus-T's Hurrican spam are far more reliable. They may not be as strong but they are more resistant to priority and Rain is much easier to maintain than Sun.
Once It gets one or two boosts using protect, it can spam HJK/CC for as long as it needs the speed and then just start spamming V-Create at +2. Not to mention it still has usable 110 SpA for coverage, in case you run into something like Quagsire. Not to mention, buck is the king of stabmons so you'll be seeing sun pretty often.
Remember that now Ninetales can run a trapping set to get rid of Politoed/Ninetales thanks to Magma Storm and superior speed.
Ninetales @ Leftovers
EVs: 100 Spd / 160 SDef / 248 HP
- Sunny Day
- Magma Storm
A set like this can put hard pressure in opponent weather inducers and grant you many turns of sun.
Since it has been brought up before, and I'm okay with it, how do you think X&Y will affect STABmons based on what we know so far?
1) Fairies -- The biggest game changer in a while is a brand-new type, but not just any type, one that hits super-effective against Dragons. Azumarill will get Water/Fairy/Normal, so if there is a reliable physical Fairy attack, it will have outstanding coverage in those three types.
Sylveon will get Normal/Fairy, and while we know hardly anything about the new evolution, it may prove to be just as potent as Espeon with access to Shell Smash.
2) Fire -- We have two new Fire-types to watch out for so far: Talonflame and Litleo. Talonflame will have Normal/Flying/Fire access, so a Shell Smash set with V-create may prove mighty powerful. Litleo, assuming it gets an evolution or has high stats, is also a contender since it too will have Normal/Fire, so if it's physically oriented, V-create spam might rise in usage.
3) Malamar -- I'm really excited about this one, not only because of its cool design and unique typing, but because it gets Contrary and Psycho Boost. If it can clear the way of other Darkmons, imagine it rampaging through the opponent's team with Scarfed Psycho Boost and a steadily increasing Special Attack...
4) Honedge -- Finally! Steel/Ghost. Will it be more defensive? Maybe it will sport a strong Attack? Either way, with a neat set of resistances, Honedge might be an answer to all the ESpeed spam. With No Guard, it will have a perfectly accurate Meteor Mash and Gear Grind to add with Shift Gear and any Ghost-moves like Shadow Force. If it learns Will-o-wisp, like most Ghosts, be prepared for it to shut down Kyurem-B as well.
5) Parabolic Charge -- Thanks to Helioptile, a new Electric move was introduced that heals the user of 1/2 the damage dealt, much like Giga Drain. Time will tell if it's Special or Physical and it's base power, but this may give some Electric-types like Magnezone, Thundurus, Electrivire, and Zapdos a new attack to their arsenal.
Talonflame will absolutely be a monster in STABmons. Access to the Shell Smash/ExtremeSpeed/V-create combo, plus a great secondary STAB with Brave Bird, will make it one of the premier Shell Smashers. No reason to use Flareon as a Shell Smasher after this monster makes its debut (don't worry Flareon fans - its still a fantastic Sacred Fire abuser).
Hopefully Parabolic Charge has the power to match Giga Drain, but thats not all Helioptile has, as it is an Electric/NORMAL type. This means it will likely outclass yet another Eeveelution (Jolteon) thanks to access to STAB on its Shell Smash boosted Normal attacks.
Noivern's design, to me, implies that it will be a speedy Special attacker, maybe mixed. If its as fast as it looks, this will hugely separate it from its fellow Dragons, and make it a fantastic Band/Specs user with powerful moves like Outrage, Brave Bird, Draco Meteor and Hurricane.
Litleo / his evolution just adds to the congested pack of V-create spammers, this time boasting STAB on ExtremeSpeed to differentiate itself from its competition.
While Oorotto's typing has yet to be announced, it is commonly speculated to be a Grass/Ghost type, giving it the all-important Spore and allowing it to easily switch in on certain Shell Smashers like Sawsbuck and Azumarill. The sudden proliferation of Fire-typed Shell Smashers will hurt it though.
Yveltal will likely be banned, but he still contributes to STABmons by way of his signature move Oblivion Wing, which I'm guessing will be a 100+ BP Dark move, which will be much appreciated by the likes of Tyranitar.
With Mawile being revealed as a Steel/Fairy type and getting a Mega Evolution (which, as far as I know, can only be accomplished in battle), he will be THE Dragon counter, resisting their attacks (possibly double-resisting) and hitting back supereffectively, while being able to boost with Shift Gear.
Obviously gen VI isn't here yet, but assuming Mega Evolutions are temporary and only take effect during battle, this puts them in the same boat as Meloetta/Darmanitan's forms, which under the current rules of the meta do not grant all the STABs of its alternate form. Sorry Ampharos, no Dragon moves for you.
Too soon to say much about generation 6. We know very little info. But I do think this will change quite a bit in certain ways
Starmie is really nice in this. I ran water spout + psystrike + rapid spin + recover with a life orb. Yeah I know, life orb with water spout is contradictory, but Starmie really needs the extra power, and recover is always there for those times that you can come in against a defensive poke and get ready to fire off even more full power spouts. Anyway, Starmie's faster than Keldeo and functions even better as a mixed sweeper because psystrike has more power than secret sword. You can even ignore rapid spin and go for a coverage move like thunder or ice beam, although you still get walled by Ferro no matter what you choose.
Tauros is solid too. He's probably inferior to Sawsbuck if you're playing in the sun because of chlorophyll, but if you're not in the sun, this set is great:
Tauros @ Leftovers/Life Orb/Lum Berry
-Lovely Kiss/Zen Headbutt
-Swords Dance/Belly Drum
Even with an adamant nature you outrun max speed jolly Sawsbuck, plus you get intimidate and that great physical bulk to help revenge kill or let you set up more easily. You still get walled by the same things, so coverage isn't really an issue. The main reason (besides sun) that you wouldn't want to use Tauros over Sawsbuck is that you don't trust lovely kiss's 75% accuracy. But tbh I think the ease of setup that you get with intimidate and that base 95 defense is a perfectly fine trade off. You can even go with zen headbutt over the sleep move to take out Gengar.
Speaking of Gengar, I really liked him, too. He doesn't gain anything useful (except toxic spikes), but the metagame revolves around powerful extremespeeds. Gengar is naturally faster than all of those extremespeeders except for Tauros, with whom he ties should the Tauros choose a jolly nature, and Sawsbuck in the sun, who is very frail and will drop to a focus blast. You can use a set with a focus sash and shadow ball + focus blast + destiny bond + toxic spikes/thunderbolt/hp ice to solid results. This set also lets you save your Sableye for later so you can continue to annoy the other team while you use Gengar as your kamikaze.
Lanturn is actually really good in this. It gets Soak, which along with its decent bulk would make it fairly hard to switch into.
Also, Agility + Power Trick Cresselia is a thing, which I can see being pretty freaking powerful.
Oh, and Blissey gets Baton Pass, allowing it to pass MASSIVE 170+ HP substitutes.
Just my two cents. I really love the concept here. Gives a lot to think about :D
Say you use transform with a max HP chansey on a shuckle with max special defence in sandstorm and you carry eviolite.
Choice specs Water Spout from a max special attack Kyogre in rain only does 33-39%, AND YOU ARE WEAK TO WATER
I've never played STABmons but...
Has anyone used Ditto? It seems to me that the tier is awash with set-up sweepers. And ditto's niche is that it can revenge-kill set-up sweepers; uniquely, it actually finds it easier after the opponent has set up (particularly a belly drum or shell smash).
Want to bring ditto in safely except when something has died? shuckle is a great scout, with huge bulk and the slowest u-turn in the entire universe...
Ditto sucks tbh. Low HP and the reliance on scarf to outspeed things you're supposed to kill really sucks. Take Scizor for example. You can't OHKO a +1 Scizor with gear grind, but it (might) be able to ohko you because your hp is much lower. You could hope that the other guy boosts his scizor to +2 or +3 so that you can ohko after you switch in, but you're at the mercy of your opponent (he might not use more boosts knowing you have a Ditto) and the accuracy of gear grind (15% chance to miss).
Ditto also can't revenge Ursaring either unless it's already fairly low (you don't steal the Guts boost unless you're statused as well), and you can't revenge Bibarel unless you already broke it's focus sash. It's just safer to use Gengar or Sableye to stop extremespeeders and your own steel or bulky water to stop steel boosters.
Hey, I've been recently getting into STABmons and I'm really enjoying it. I made an RMT a couple days ago and it hasn't had any responses yet. I'd really appreciate it if you guys checked it out: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-rain-team.3487396/
New here, but I noticed some potentially game changing new attacks for 6th gen. Parting shot, a cross between memento and volt turn, looks to be the set up sweeper's best friend. Topsy-turvy, which inverses opponents stat changes, looks like the set up sweeper's worst nightmare. Oh yeah, it's also Dark type. Yep. Sableye will get prankster topsy-turvy...
I would like to advocate the banning of extreme speed. Before anyone says no out of hand, think about it. The move completely shapes the metagame. The mere existence of Ursaring completely prevents speed based set up sweepers (such as darkrai, espeon, and yanmega) who would otherwise be great. Not only that, but it also prevents any use of choice scarfers. There are definitely ways around this move, but in the whole, I think it has a negative impact on the metagame, and should be at least considered for banning
I would rather have Shell Smash / Belly Drum / Quiver Dance and possibly Shift Gear banned. I find this meta completely unplayable now because literally every team has several insane boosting sweepers and you're forced to run stuff like Ursaring and Sableye to beat them. I honestly feel I'm playing a degenerate version of Balanced Hackmons.
That's a good thing IMO. Would you rather get 6-0'd by TL Quiver Yanmega?
Anyway, I reckon lots of shit needs to be banned in order to save this meta. It's fun using broken shit for the first few battles but this is too much.
But that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point I am making is that E-speed /is/ broken, not that other stuff isn't. Besides, Quiver Yanmega is walled by chansey. Another point I will make is that the reason Belly Drum is so good is because of e-speed, and half the shell smash abusers also use it. The mere existence of extreme speed is just turning it into a metagame centralized around several key threats and ways to beat them. Not that it's not fun as hell, it is, but still.
I'm waiting to address bans until we get at least our first month of usage statistics released.
Then I'll probably put up a vote.
Then I have to find out who updates the mods (I know The Immortal has been for my stuff at Joim's Lab, not sure about the main server).
In the meantime, what about Gengar, who can outspeed almost all Normal-type abusers and has an immunity to ESpeed? Unaware Quagsire is also a good check to any physical booster, especially the Shift Gear gang since they're all Steel-types, and hits back with Earthquake.
I know the metagame is not balanced atm, but I think it's good to bring up some anti-meta mons for now. This ladder was just set up, so let's work out the kinks in due time.
(And yes I know lots of us have played since I introduced this months ago, but to many people it's still brand new.)
I do agree that Espeed is broken as hell and should be banned (hopefully it's possible for those who learn it naturally to keep it though), but my point was that a whole lot of other shit needs to be banned too.
Yanmega being walled by Chansey doesn't mean anything. Everything gets walled by something. We should not be forced into putting Chansey on all of our teams just to stop Yanmega. Likewise, it's not fun or fair being forced to use Sableye and Ursaring so you don't get swept by BD/SS Espeed.
And to Eevee, it's good that something else may finally get banned. I don't think any reasonble person would be in favour of keeping things as they are.
Two things: Yanmega might be broken but then again, it might not. In the pre-ladder play, e-speed was not nearly as common, and yanmega was still not broken. And also, it's TI that coded it for showdown, and I know this because I talked to him about Darkrai being accidentally banned.
I don't find extremespeed to be broken. You can stop every espeeder cold with Gengar, or Skarmory, and even Ferro can stop all of them except Ursaring (altho Ferro can win if he's full health and hits with power whip, iirc close combat is only a 2hko on a healthy Ferro and iron barbs + power whip is enough to take out Ursaring). You can also stop them with your own offensive steel. +6 Sawsbuck doesn't ohko an offensive Scizor or offensive Metagross, but both steels ohko back.
You also have Sableye, scarf eruption Chandelure, scarf Tyranitar, Terrakion (scarf or not), or even your own extremespeeder or fake out user... there's lots of options.
Actually, I've seen Sawsbuck OHKO Scizor before.
It could have been a glitch, yes, but I find those are very rare with damage.
Did a damage calc.
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck ExtremeSpeed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 310-365 (90.37 - 106.41%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ok so it's a possible KO (def not guaranteed, stealth rocks is pretty rare in stabmons, AND the Sawsbuck has to be life orb, which is even rarer because he has to boost with belly drum and the recoil is insane), but every other counter I listed works.