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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime the echoes of silence
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    Doubles Queen

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    My Trick Room team is one that I have been using to success recently, in both doubles formats (vgc, smog dubs). With only minor edits with switching between the two tiers. http://pastebin.com/eFxbzu is the team and it has a basic strategy, keep your trick room up as long as you possible can. The way to get your trick room up guaranteed within the first two turns, is to lead with Jellicent and Amoongus. If your opponent has a fake outer, use protect on both pokemon, and if not, just rage powder with Amoongus and trick room, mental herb will activate if your opponent is carrying a taunter and then you're free to put something to sleep. Kyurem-b, Rhyperior, and Chandelure are the abusers well Cresselia Can be used to set up trick room once again once Jellicent has died. Rhyperior is a good team mate to have with Jellicent, being able to absorb electric attacks aimed at it with lightning rod and Chandy and Kyurem-b just provide heavy damage with little effort. For those interested in using this team in VGC, replace kyurem-b with scrafty and you're good to go. Kyurem-b is still only being tested at this point and is kind of "fast" for trick room, but it has worked extremely well so far



    Show Hide

    Jellicent @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Scald
    - Shadow Ball
    - Protect

    Amoonguss @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Effect Spore
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Spore
    - Rage Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Protect

    Kyurem-Black @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Teravolt
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Dragon Claw
    - Ice Beam
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Protect

    Chandelure @ Fire Gem
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Shadow Ball
    - Heat Wave
    - Energy Ball
    - Protect

    Cresselia (F) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Rest
    - Trick Room
    - Psychic
    - Helping Hand

    Rhyperior @ Rock Gem
    Trait: Lightningrod
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Megahorn
    - Rock Slide
    - Protect


    The past bin didn't work so the team is in the hide tag
  2. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Guys, Absorb Bulb Seaking is da bomb at doubles. One time, I had a Politoed use Surf on me, I used Discharge, and Genesect used Thunder on Seaking. Seaking went from +0 to +3 in a single turn and was free to spam rain boosted Surfs!
    The movepool isn't great with Surf, Icy Wind, Agility, Protect, and Psybeam(for Toxicroak and Breloom) being all its got on the special side. The horrible base stats are disappointing as well =/

    Specs Gastrodon is amazing. Getting +1 from the common Surf, resisting Rock Slide and Heat Wave, immunity to Discharge, STAB Surf are all great. Earth Power scores nice KOs and Icy Wind adds a lot too.

    Deoxys-A is broken.. All you have to do is use fakeout on 1 Pokemon and CB ESpeed/Zen Headbutt/Superpower the other for a free KO, rinse and repeat. This also works with follow me and rage powder.
    Level 51, finally and KyleCole like this.
  3. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    Well, I'm trying teams for this meta and I've put this one together. I thought of good couples, so I kinda work with 3 cores: discharge, defensive and rain power spam.
    Replays:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7732944
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7733808
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7734521
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7734690
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7735716

    Politoed & Jellicent are both scarfed and use Surf and Water Spout. They are the power houses and anti-weather of my team. Thundy and Manectric work together and basically spam Discharge. I might scarf them, but the defensive berries work better by now. They can destroy a team rapidly. Blissey uses heal pulse, t-wave and is basically the support pivot, whilst hitmontop provides both defense and offense.

    Still working on it :)

    Edit: Changed Heal Blissey for Intimidate Landorus-T, seems it works. T-wave added to Manectric instead.
  4. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    As a warning: There was a bug that made screens -1/2 damage in doubles (they should be -1/3 damage), which has been fixed as of one hour ago. You may wish to adjust your strategies accordingly.
  5. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon is a more intuitive player
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    Doubles Co-Lead

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    a surprisingly good pokemon I've found in Doubles is Archeops (that's a replay of him kicking ass). He seems to thrive in the environment of selectable targets somehow with decent prediction, and his blazing fast speed (sadly one point lower than thundurus D: ), good Dual STAB and Stealth Rock make him a valuable asset to my rain team. I'd urge everyone to try him out.

    edit: blank_zero brought to my attention aerodactyl, the lack of acrobatics and u-turn kinda hurt but he seems like about the same fare.
  6. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I'm a bit confused over this, and went back to the OP to check, because I don't see any mention of this. If it's standard fare in VGC, then fine, I just am a bti put off by it myself.

    Also, what are folks thoughts on Stall Teams or Semi Stall in this meta?
  7. Joim

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    I myself want to try rain stall and I think it may work thanks to protect and wide guard.
  8. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Toxic Spikes and such might work, though I feel you'd Reeeeeeeeealy need to focus on overall bulk. Maybe a Sand Stall team?
  9. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Rain Stall is decently effective. iRenzo and I played a match with his new team and did rather well, even though I knew the basic strategy.
  10. SubwayJ

    SubwayJ

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    Even though I am not very good, I would say with the battles I've played in, Dual Screens Gothielle has been a boss. IMO she is just as good if not better than Cress if only because of Shadow Tag > Bulk
  11. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I do believe that Dual Screens is very ineffective now that it's been fixed. Now, using Reflect/LS if need be is fine, but as a viable strategy, I don't think it's as good now.

    I've been running a new set on Cressalia recently as a result, with Protect/Psyshock replacing my Screens, but I'm not sure if I should continue with her or move on to something else with lots of bulk and TWave/Icy Wind.

    Here's a recent match to show the effectiveness.
  12. NatGeo

    NatGeo kauai
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    Personally, since the Doubles metagame atm can be played pretty similar to the VGC 12 / VGC 13 meta I'm using a fairly offensive cress set with HP Fire / Twave / Ice Beam / Psyshock. I'm still undecided on how to EV it properly though, given that the major damage benchmarks haven't been really set out here like they have in VGC (i.e. Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor, etc.). It's kinda sad because for cress to be bulky effectively in this meta it has to lose some offense that it will almost always need, and vice versa... 3HKOed some ferrothorn today with non - Expert Belt HP Fire and I was stunned slightly.

    On that note, what have you guys been trying for Cresselia sets? I'd assume that VGC far would translate pretty well into this metagame but with the addition of new legendaries there might be some other set or moves that are better here. I have yet to try the combo of Skill Swap Cresselia + Heatran, so if someone could post their experiences with that it could be a great insight into how much VGC and Smogon Doubles are similar, at least at this moment! :)
  13. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    At the moment, I'm running a bulky defensive support Cress.

    Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Protect
    - Psyshock
    - Thunder Wave
    - Icy Wind

    Speed control is amazing in this meta, especially with how fast a lot of things are now. It really helps out a lot during matches with Paralyze, letting my Blaziken come in and wreck without even needing a Speed Boost, or allowing Ferrothorn to move before the opponent even without TR up.

    I do wish it had some extra power though, as if it comes down to my last 2 mons (usually Ferro/Cress) I'd like to be able to hit back effectively.
  14. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
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    I've had really good success with Calm Mind/Moonlight/Psyshock/Icy Wind on my sun team. With sun up, a lot of teams flat-out cannot break through, and even with no SpA investment she can do some damage after a couple of boosts.

    Also, I honestly think Protect is a waste of a move slot on Cresselia. She has so many good support options and it doesn't really protect from a lot of stuff.
  15. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Just got through making an RMT for my Doubles Sand team. You can see it here. Hopefully it brings a bit more attention to the tier, as well as proving Sand isn't at a disadvantage compared to other weathers like people say it is.

    EDIT: Also, Audiosurfer vs. Level 51
  16. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    What item though, Sitrus? I might try that as I'm getting tired of not doing shit for damage. give me a set VP! :P
  17. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Alright I need to finally get around to posting my battles:


    I am pretty bored running the same team I have run since pretty much I started the playing and I think so is everyone else :p
    Team (open)
    Scizor @ Iron Plate
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch
    - Tailwind
    - Protect

    Heatran (F) @ Charcoal
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Heat Wave
    - Protect

    Cresselia (F) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Helping Hand
    - Rest
    - Icy Wind
    - Psychic

    Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Serious Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash
    - Protect

    Shaymin-Sky @ Life Orb
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Air Slash
    - Earth Power
    - Seed Flare
    - Protect

    Aerodactyl (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Unnerve
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Taunt
    - Protect
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake


    From my experience with my team I came to these conclusions:
    • Focus Sash is a very powerful item this metagame due to the absence of SR. You can effectively keep a Poke to its sash all the way to late game. While this is mitigated by the ability for a Pokemon to be hit twice in one turn if slower, the times where you will be targeted twice (unless with a spread move) will be in the minority. Focus Sash can effectively disrupt many stratigies, expecially those of Helping Hand+Spread Move users. One paticular instance was when I trolled Pocket and his Eruption TR Heatran and KO'ed both of his Pokes :)
    • Skymin is perhaps the most powerful Pokemon in this metagame. While many users will be inclined to disagree with me, I would say to them that Skymin combination of power, speed, and utility makes it so. First of all Skymin is rarely outsped since few teams carry a choice scarfer or a base 130+ Poke. Only priority is common enough that hits it first before it hits you. Speaking of hitting, it hits hard, Seed Flare is a monster. Not only is it a 120 BP STAB, but it can utilize the potential Sp. Def for a team mate. On the utility aspec, Skymin's Air Slash can be used to buy free turns for another teammate or itself. Getting yourself free-turns can be incredibly disruptive to the opponent, especially if he or she is trying to get a field effect up. It can also use Tailwind to support its team. Really the only thing stopping Skymin is Icy Wind being everywhere, weakness to spread moves (but it can be stopped with a good partner), and lack of its own spread moves. Skymin is the reason for the inclusion of Aerodactyl on this team.
    • Helping Hand+Priority moves are an incredible tool to sniping Pokemon right out of the game. Helping Hand "helps" before a priority, move, so you can effectively have a 135 base power priority move with Scizor or Breloom!!! That isn't even taking into account item boosts. This is especially helpful against trick room teams.
    • You should really come up with 3 solid pairs for your team. I have found building by the "pair method" is better than the "overall" method. In my case, it is Aerodactyl+Mamoswine, Skymin+Heatran, and Scizor+Cresselia.
    • Aerodactyl is a pretty good niche pokemon. Its support makes sure Pokemon relying on resist berries/heal berries, such as Zapdos and Garchomp won't get away. It's fast STAB Rock Slide is a great anti-Skymin measure and its very fast Taunt makes sure the opponent will be debilitated. I would prefer to use Aerodactyl in the place of Archeops Pwnmon.
    • Creeselia really enjoys using Icy Wind. Icy Wind hits many Pokemon 4x super-effectively while still providing support for a teammate.

    On the metagame in general, it is interesting to see how toned down the power level is compared to singles and how things are flipped on their head. IMO Hail is better than Sand in this metagame. Other than Excadrill, Sand does not recieve as many perks compared to other weathers. Tyranitar's and Hippowdon's water-weakness sucks in a metagame filled with rain, and in Tyranitar's case weakness to Earthquake. Excadrill I have found is really subpar, since it's STAB EQ cannot handles the most popular bulky tanks in the metagame: those being Cresselia, Hitmontop, and Landorus-T. Creeslia is immune to its main STAB; Landorus-T does better with a super-effective EQ against Excadrill, Intimidate, and immunity; and Hitmontop applies Intimidate and either a Fighting-Gem Mach Punch/Close Combat or Wide Guard.

    What makes Hail better is Blizzard, the best spread move in the game. Seriously, abusing 120 base power for a spread move lays down a lot of pain fast. Ice is one of the best attacking types in the game (behind fighting and dragon) hitting many Pokes 4x Super-effectively and having no immunities. Lastly, it has a 10% chance of feezing either target is icying on the cake.

    IMO Goodstuffs does not get enough representation in the tier. It certainly can apply pressure to almost all opposing playstyes. People also should apply more thought to the "lead doubles" metagame, Aerodactyl+Mamoswine have caught a lot of teams off guard. Lastly, I think people are starting to catch on to the application of SR in the tier. It still is not the force it is in singles, and never will be, but considering how many weather wars there are and how since it is 6 vs 6 instead of 4 vs 4 like VGC, it still has good application.
  18. Audiosurfer

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    I think ChestoRest is the best Cresselia set, since I usually only need to use it once, if ever, and being able to get rid of status as well is great. Basically Psychic and Rest + 2 support moves of your choice does really well against plenty of teams.
  19. voodoo pimp

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    Leftovers (it rarely lasts for less than four turns unless the battle is over by then). I'm writing up a RMT for that team right now, so check it out when I'm done.
  20. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime the echoes of silence
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    I run my Cresselia very similar to the VGC sets i've been using as of late, I've only ever used 2 different sets, one very offensive like you mentioned with the exact move set and for that set i've been using a 252hp 252 specattack with 4 def and a modest nature. The other set that i've been using is basically a mono attack with Trick room support helping hand and resto chesto.

    Show Hide

    Cresselia (F) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Rest
    - Trick Room
    - Psychic
    - Helping Hand


    the set allows you to basically set up trick room, use psychic on threats like breloom, terrakinon thundurus ect, and helping hand as the main support move helping teammates such as Rhyperior with rock gem do major damage with rock slide, doing roughly 70% to the standard cress iirc





    Also and edit for anyone who cares i've changed chandelure for Abomasnow on the team i've posetd and changed ice beam for blizzard on kyurem-b and it seems to be working a little better then it was with chandy
  21. Audiosurfer

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    Audiosurfer vs Blankzero
    Was a pretty fun battle of Sand vs Sun. Thought it was interesting to note how frail alot of Sun sweepers are, and how in general the archetype relies mostly on speed to do things. I think it's pretty easy to take advantage of if you have something that can live through their Sun-Boosted attacks (easier said than done).
    EDIT: Except for Cresselia who is bulky and awesome (Happy Voodoo Pimp?)
  22. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Agreed. Fun battle and that Excadrill really worked me over with X-Scissor. Wasn't expecting it at all. Once Lilligant went down, things just got worse as Exca is immune to TWave AND toxic due to its amazing typing. I wish I had known about X-Scissor though. Too bad for me eh?
  23. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I finally posted my better-than-Voodoo's Sun RMT. Let me know what you think. I'll be fleshing out descriptions later.

    Also, Snowflakes and I. Snow never plays Doubles but it was still a close game. This is just to highlight how strong Ferrothorn really is as a tank.
  24. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    I too think that the best way to build a team is find 3 couples that work perfectly together and also can work with the other couples given the need.

    Excadrill is really lackluster and I have problems fighting Shaymin-S, he's a monster since he can OHKO all my Ice Beam users easily and dispatch my rock slide users fastly too.
  25. Level 51

    Level 51 [17:37:18] boTTT: (Private to @Level 51) ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ
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    I think the problem here is that such a system of couples will be really, really difficult to find.
    Excadrill is pretty funny because it gets really fast MAGNET RISE in Sand, taking away one of its main weaknesses (believe me, I should know x_x). Skymin should in theory fall to a combination of a scarfed Pokemon and a damaging weather of your choice to break a sash (which, coincidentally, is one of Hail's main draws in Smogon Doubles.)

    I really hate long posts but I'm also going to take this opportunity to post about Mr. Mime. While 40/65/120 defenses might indicate that it's not the best support Pokemon you can choose from, It does get some very good support moves, most notably Fake Out, Light Screen, Reflect, Follow Me, Teeter Dance, and my favorite, SKILL SWAP. Before I go on to talk about Skill Swap's efficacy, I'd like to highlight Mr. Mime's neat Speed stat of 90. While this leaves it outsped by numerous threats, it also allows Mr. Mime to outspeed Rotom-A, Togekiss, Cloyster, Dragonite, Jellicent, Heatran and even unboosted Blaziken. You'll notice that all of these Pokemon have excellent abilities, and in most of these cases, are usually employed under a strategy causing their abilities to be essential; this is where Skill Swap comes in.

    Fighting a Rotom-A? No problem, Skill Swap away its Levitate and watch as your partner Pokemon Earthquakes it into oblivion. Up against a Heatran ? Steal Flash Fire and watch your opponent ragequit. Don't even get me started on Gastrodon and Jellicent :). What's even funnier is that you can then pass these abilities on to your partner, which can cover up some vital weaknesses (I've given Dry Skin, Water Absorb, and Flash Fire to my Mamoswine before). Besides this, your opponent's use of spread moves is also greatly hindered.

    In Mr. Mime's case, you get the added bonus of being able to pass Technician on to your ally, such as Mamoswine (Icicle Spear, Ice Shard), Marowak (Bonemerang), or even Kyurem-B (Dual Chop)! Finally, I'll end off this (somewhat) tl;dr post with my personal Mr. Mime set:

    Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Skill Swap
    - Light Screen
    - Fake Out
    - Teeter Dance
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