General Metagame Discussion

[Taylor]

as i said earlier, deoxys-s is the best of both worlds for any team. he 100% supports with screens/hazards, or terrorizes your team with a diverse and perfect move coverage; complemented with an extremely powerful 210 bpowered move. it was a nightmare to deal with in common conditions and had bw ou looking like a complete cluster fuckin' mess, truth be told.

 

[Hydeous]

You should try to use it. You may overblow Deoxys-S as you want and go "omgwtfbbq it's so frighteningly unpredictable with its two sets" when you see it against you, but that's a common bias ; actually using something is an excellent way to find out its limits, and that works in many a game.

Oh well, there's no shortage of speedy supports to take its place. Until they're banned too, that is.

 

[Nelson]

Finally, this thing is ban, thx smog but don't forgot Baton pass too.^^

 

[min min]

IMO Deoxys-S wasn't that much of a help against weather teams, but its ban will certainly make the metagame more diverse. For example, Azelf and Uxie might see more use as Dual Screeners, as well as the more novel Starmie and Alakazam. As for its fast non-scarf revenge-killing prowess, I suppose you can't really replace that that easily since the only auto x2 speed boost now is via Sun, which fails against Sand and Rain. However, I don't think the loss of the only pokemon in that niche will affect the metagame that heavily, since scarf users like Latios and Landorus already exist.

 

[bubbly]

Finally that stuff is banned. Looking forward to a bit of diversity on the ladder. Thinking Scizor usage in particular coupled with Rotom-W will drop considerably.

 

[erisia]

Looks like I won't get to keep using my Calm Mind Deoxys-S, then. :P Although I suppose I could replace it with Sash-Alakazam and do more or less the same thing, so it's no biggie. Looking at the justification for its ban, I probably agree in retrospect. You have to have a specific response to deal with Deoxys-S's screener set effectively, and that leaves you at a disadvantage against everything else. If you don't deal with it, your offense team will most likely get curb-stomped by hyper-offense whilst if you do deal with it, your team will be weaker towards everything else.

 

[doughboy]

Please don't ban baton pass, it is actually used outside of full blown baton pass teams. I'm sure the Smash Pass stuff will calm down since Deo-S is gone. It sorta of sad, why use ninjask or any other pokes in a baton pass chain when you can Baton +2 in every offensive stat in 2 turns.

 

[Nova]

Thanks for banning deoxys-s, next up Dragonite

 

[Joeyboy]

I actually think the metagame might be pretty balanced at the moment. Sun seems like the only broken thing on paper but in practice its much harder to pull off. And sure there are really big threats(Dnite, Terra, Volc) but I don't find them to be overpowering teams, they're really good(no doubt) but not unstoppable by any means. I also feel its much harder to lose now solely due to team matchup(it will still happen sometimes of course).

 

[KurashiDragon]

Wow all of the explanation as to why Deoxys-s is now uber has been mentioned in the discussion as to whether or not it's uber. I guess the anti uber arguments just weren't good enough. I haven't played in a while so I'm neutral to all of this but I don't mind if the metagame gets more balanced.

 

[Eggbert]

Scizor and Rotom usage hmm, maybe it's volt turn? Not a bad reason to use breloom

 

[alexwolf]

Specially defensive Bulk Up Breloom is the way to go guys!
A big fuck you to the Volt-Turn strategy and a pretty solid poke overall.
If you wanna know what i mean go to the Bulk Up Breloom OU analysis in the C&C forum and check the specially defensive spread that Mynism posted!

 

[Haxtwo]

Specially defensive Bulk Up Breloom is the way to go guys!
A big fuck you to the Volt-Turn strategy and a pretty solid poke overall.
If you wanna know what i mean go to the Bulk Up Breloom OU analysis in the C&C forum and check the specially defensive spread that Mynism posted!

i totally agree bulk up breloom should defintly not be ignored overall its just fun and competitive what more could you want!

 

[bubbly]

Heh I remember using Bulk Up Breloom back in gen 4. Might be difficult to make it work now what with Dragonite and Latios everywhere.

 

[jrp]

Bulk up breloom would have loved base 60 power drain punch if it hadn't been changed, assuming DW loom got it. It does have its uses, but it's usually outclassed.


And hell yes, this metagame without Deoxys-S is amazing. No more having to worry about the plethora of ways it could set up >.>

 

[Techniloom]

Bulk up breloom would have loved base 60 power drain punch if it hadn't been changed, assuming DW loom got it. It does have its uses, but it's usually outclassed.


And hell yes, this metagame without Deoxys-S is amazing. No more having to worry about the plethora of ways it could set up >.>

True Breloom would of loved it but Poison Heal is kind of a better ability to use on bulk up Breloom and 75 BP healing is nice in conjunction with Poison Heal.

Also you obviously never play hyper offense where losing Deoxy-S is big let down because now we have to go to the bottom of the barrel and get Azelf and friends, hyper offense is really going to fall in usage now. Lastly what plethora of ways to set up? It only had two set up sets.

 

[jrp]

True Breloom would of loved it but Poison Heal is kind of a better ability to use on bulk up Breloom and 75 BP healing is nice in conjunction with Poison Heal.

Also you obviously never play hyper offense where losing Deoxy-S is big let down because now we have to go to the bottom of the barrel and get Azelf and friends, hyper offense is really going to fall in usage now. Lastly what plethora of ways to set up? It only had two set up sets.

yeah, but both of the sets had ways to crush the things that normally would counter it, be it HP Fire or Superpower, ect

Also, you act like using Azelf is a bad thing. It's fast and has great offensive capabilities

Also Espeon is a good screener

 

[Taylor]

people, excadrills sand rush was the reason it was uber. blaziken likewise with speed boost and thundurus because he threatened a team of six with perfect coverage. fact is, deo-s set up and shut down aero, azelf and below with no other option considerable for use given deoxys-s speed, moveset and respectable attacking stats combined.

unpredictablity when used to describe deoxys-s' impact is often brought up in discussion because not only was it immaculate at laying the ground works for each ou battle, but it was able to also sport a similar moveset offensively to thundurus; the punch, so to speak, wasnt as hard but still existed and was more than capable of ohkoing plenty of regular ou mons with little effort.

 

[Hydeous]

Also, you act like using Azelf is a bad thing. It's fast and has great offensive capabilities

Also Espeon is a good screener

Exactly, so odds are they're going to be banned too one day because screw HO, here you play stall or weather.

For heaven's sake, comparing Deoxys-S to Thundurus ? I will try my best to not be rude here. Deoxys is too weak to hit anything significantly when it's not targeting a x4 weakness. Unpredictability ? One of two cases, it's either a suicide lead or a LO cleaner (emphasis on cleaner, it does not sweep shit) and you're going to guess correctly every time based on its position. It's predictable as heck if anything.
You don't lose games to Deoxys-S. Or if you do, it would be healthier to do some questioning instead of doing some banning.

 

[The Silent Storm]

I don't think that deo-s was banned just because lo cleaner kills everything (quick mention: I saw Psycho Boost ohkoing rotom-w) it was the metagame that he ''created'' that banned him.
I mean, am I the only one who rage when I see deo-s+5 setup sweepers in team preview?

Of course, HO is a plyastyle, considered by many ''fun'' but everytime I saw ho teams with deoxys-s, be it spiker or screener the match was just a complete mess, at the same level when drizzle+ss were legal. sr+spikes created excessive pressure against opponents team ''hey look I have Starmie, is so good as a spinner'' Yeah, so let's see you use orbmie with the hope to spin away hazards, look gengar came in, no prob i'll kill him with Hydro Pump! (hpump miss- oh wait irrevelant) Ahà! Take that bitch, uh, Rotom-w entered the battle, oh man it's scarfed it's obvious, damn you I hate you volturn (BAN ME PLEASE) with ''hazard deo'' Now i have to switch, I seriously hope that later I can spin this motherfucking rocks, and not entering cbzor bullet punch ohko range''
Starmie is perhaps the best spinner in ou atm, because on the contrary of forretress, donphan and tentacruel it doesn't give momentium to the opponent, thanks to his/her great coverage and excellent speed, sadly it's still not enough to warrant a spin.
What happens? Volturn, or Scrotom, call it whatever you like abuse the sr and 1 (or more) layer of hazards, WITH YOU INCAPABLE to protect yourself, and sooner or later you'll be strained by the ''residual'' damage.
I don't even want to talk about screens, nor screens+smashpass, not even funny srsly, even though deo was banned I hope that Smogon in the future will look and take a decision about smashpass, anyhoo...
The biggest point that sets deoxys-s from azelf, it's not only the coverage (superpower any1) but the greater speed, this was already explained in the topic created by jabba, Azelf and the like will have problem surpassing things like scarftar, and trust me, scarftar in dppt wasn't used only for latias, if things turns out to become like the ''lead metagame'' in dp, then surely he will come out on top, in the usage list, aerodactyl and things can also taunt it, and who knows, we MIGHT see things like scarfrachi again, only time will tell, about the lo cleaner, imo it's not a quesiton of ''it's powerful like thundurus this motherfucker'' it's more like:
''Ok I'm going to send in mah tyranitar who will clean this aline things up
What in the world superpower omg, damn you, now i'm 5 vs 6, and nothing will stop him setting up hazards''
''GO STARMIE SPIN THIS BITCH, what the hell is this, thunderbolt/thunder? IMPOSSIBLE, how am I supposed to spin now?
''wtf, I though that it was the standard sr/spikes/taunt/superpower, ugh, sorry gliscor...
Btw, lopsycho boost who destroy Rotom-w fits in, too.
Anyway, curios to see how the metagame will develop now, and also for the next suspect, heh

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Exactly, so odds are they're going to be banned too one day because screw HO, here you play stall or weather.

For heaven's sake, comparing Deoxys-S to Thundurus ? I will try my best to not be rude here. Deoxys is too weak to hit anything significantly when it's not targeting a x4 weakness. Unpredictability ? One of two cases, it's either a suicide lead or a LO cleaner (emphasis on cleaner, it does not sweep shit) and you're going to guess correctly every time based on its position. It's predictable as heck if anything.
You don't lose games to Deoxys-S. Or if you do, it would be healthier to do some questioning instead of doing some banning.

It seems like you didn't read any of the 25+ pages of the Deoxys-S Tier Discussion.
I suggest you either take some time to read up or don't complain about these things as if they weren't discussed.

Oh, and no one ever said we lost games to Deoxys. We did say you lost games to the rest of the team because they got unparalleled support from the alien virus. Instant offensive momentum...sounds like fun, huh?
Espeon and Azelf will never compare.

Anyway, I like the current metagame without Deoxys more. I see a lot less cookie-cutter teams and my Hail team is rising up the ladder even faster than before, with 5 Scizor weak Pokemon and I still somehow manage to pull through. The only pokemon so far that has caused me instant losses is Lefties SD Scizor, but everything else is pretty manageable. I'm at the top 500 players, which is kinda low, but for a Hail team that's super weak to Scizor...this seems alright since I just need to change a team member for Skarmory or something.

I have to thank Dry Skin Jynx and StallRein for some of my wins too. Jynx just sets up on things like Politoed, Tentacruel, etc. and almost always performs mini-sweeps with NP, Blizzard, Focus Miss, and Psyshock(should I use Psychic instead?).
StallRein is just a boss. He survives so many hits and stalls out all these big threats and he can pwn nearly any dragon with his STAB Blizzard.
Another awesome pokemon is Kyurem. He usually cleans up after Jynx and Walrein have done a ton of damage with his stupid strong Blizzards and decent bulk. Pressure stalling moves like Stone Edge, Gyro ball, etc. is also really useful.

 

[Pocket]

You'd probably be better off cutting down on the # of Hail Abusers and add a reliable Scizor counter. Being weak to Scizor will lose you games. Offensive teams tend to have trouble with Scizor, and I had the same problem when I recently made an HO team. Shouldn't be hard to add a Chandelure, Heatran, Tentacruel, or Rotom-W w/ HP Fire to deal with Scizor.

 

[alphatron]

Not sure if its just me, but I've been seeing more SD Scizor on the ladder than I'd like to.

Get rid of anything for one of the pokes Pokcet mentioned. I personally like chandy as it can be a spinblocker against everything that isn't Starmie.

Btw Pocket, where's your avatar from?

 

[Tenodera]

Chandy is immune to Fighting too, which is pretty nice...

Kefka, do you use Scarf Kyurem as a cleaner then?

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

You'd probably be better off cutting down on the # of Hail Abusers and add a reliable Scizor counter. Being weak to Scizor will lose you games. Offensive teams tend to have trouble with Scizor, and I had the same problem when I recently made an HO team. Shouldn't be hard to add a Chandelure, Heatran, Tentacruel, or Rotom-W w/ HP Fire to deal with Scizor.

Oh don't worry, I plan to fix the team. I was just surprised that I actually got that ranking(even if it's so-so) with so many weaknesses.