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Gengar (Update) (QC 2/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by alexwolf, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    We decided to merge the SubDisable and SubSplit sets and add WoW on top of it. The Scarf set and the Offensive 3 Attacks set seem fine so i don't think any changes should be made to them.
    Show Hide
    I also want opinions about the Sub +3 attacks set. Do you think that Sub fits well on all out attacking Gengar, do you think that Focus Sash should be slashed, and do you think that Taunt, WoW, and Destiny Bond should replace or be slashed with Substitute? Imo there is no need for another Sub set as if Gengar wants it can just use a 3rd attacking move on the first set anyway. If we decide to have an all-out attacking set here is how i think it should look like:

    [SET]
    name: All-out attacker
    move 1: Shadow Ball
    move 2: Focus Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
    move 4: Destiny Bond / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Focus Sash / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    With Taunt, Thunder, and Thunderbolt in the AC. Taunt works well with D-Bond too and defeats Pokemon such as Blissey, Chansey, and Hippowdon while the electric moves are there to 2HKO Tentacruel and dent Water-types in general, including Keldeo and Gyarados.
    It seems that we will keep the Sub/Protect set +3 attacks and add a Gengar set for HO spikestacking teams.

    Now on to the analysis:

    [​IMG]
    Gengar

    [Overview]

    - Great Special Attack, Speed, and perfect neutral coverage with just two moves
    - Best offensive spinblocker in OU
    - Two very useful immunities in Ground and Figthing moves provide a decent number of switch-in chances
    - Thanks to its typing it can also check many Fighting and Ground Pokemon such as Terrakion, Breloom, and Gliscor
    - Very frail and will usually be KOed if brought in against the wrong move
    - Although it has an excellent SpA stat and excellent neutral coverage with just two moves, it struggles to do significant damage to Pokemon neutral to Shadow Ball and Focus Blast, due to the low BP of Shadow Ball
    - Susceptible to Pursuit

    [SET]
    name: Substitute Attacker
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Pain Split / Disable
    item: Black Sludge / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    - Thanks to the perfect neutral coverage granted by Shadow Ball + Focus Blast Gengar can take advantage of Substitute in many unique ways
    - Substitute protects Gengar from its common switch-ins such as Jirachi, Scizor, and Scarf Tyranitar
    - WoW cripples the above common switch-ins as well as SpD Hippowdon, one of the best defensive answers to Gengar
    - Pain Split + Sub + LO make for a great combo. After Gengar gets on low life and behind the safety of Sub, it can heal a great deal of damage back with Pain Split while damaging the opponent. By spamming Pain Split Gengar can also defeats Chansey and Bliseey, Pokemon that could otherwise stall it out
    - Sub + Disable takes advantage of Gengar's immunities to the half of common attacking combos such as Ground + Rock and Fighting + Rock to allow Gengar to check dangerous Pokemon such as Terrakion, Conkeludrr, SpD Jirachi, and SubSD Garchomp. Once Gengar gets in against those therats safely it can setup a sub as the opponent hits with the only move in their moveset that can threaten Gengar and the next turn Gengar can Disable this move and setup a Sub as the opponent switches out helpless
    - Black Sludge should be used with WoW and Disable while Life Orb with Pain Split

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    - If you want you can use Sub +3 attacks as HP Ice, HP Fire, Thudnerbolt, and Thunder are all choices that cover certain important threats.
    - T-Spikes help a lot if Gengar is running Disable as they can wear down the foe pretty quick while Gengar stalls for turns with Sub + Disable
    - Your own hazards to take advantage of Gengar's spinblocking abilities and help it get more KOes. Ferrothorn and Heatran are great partners for this job as they have good defensive synergy with Gengar, luring Ground and Fighting attacks for Gengar to switch into
    - SubWisp lures and cripples Scizor, Jirachi, and SpD Hippowdon, so sweepers that can take advantage of this are good teammates.
    - SubSplit weakens many walls that like to switch into Gengar to the point that a teammate can get past them easily so once again use teammates to exploit this.
    - SubDisable is more of a supporter and a glue Pokemon than anything else so it doesn't really need any specific teammate
    - Good on HO teams
    - ScarfZor, ScarfTar, and Weavile because FUCK STARMIE

    [SET]
    name: Destiny Bond
    move 1: Shadow Ball
    move 2: Focus Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Taunt
    move 4: Destiny Bond
    item: Life Orb / Focus Sash / Expert Belt
    nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    - Designed to apply as much offensive presence as possible before going down, punching holes in the opposing team and surprising the opponent with Destiny Bond
    - Shadow Ball + FB are standard
    - Hidden Power Fire KOes Scizor, which usually scares Scizor out and also KOes Forretress if Sturdy has been broken. It also deals with Ferrothorn without the need to rely on 70% accuracy. HP Fire is also useful with Focus Sash to act as a check to Venusaur, usually a big threat to HO teams. Even without Focus Sash it still prevents Venusaur from setting up on it
    - Hidden Power Ice deals with Garchomp, Dragonite, Thundurus-T, and Landorus-T, Pokemon that could otherwise take a hit from Gengar and either setup or OHKO back
    - Taunt is an option to not let anything slower than Gengar setup on it and also works very nice in conjunction with Destiny Bond
    - Destiny Bond helps Gengar deal with any Pokemon that walls it, such as Jirachi and Tentacruel in rain, doubling as both a wallbreaking and spinblocking tool.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    - Thunder
    - Icy Wind
    - WoW
    - Hazard leads
    - Anti-hazard support if Focus Sash is used
    - Weavile, Scarf Tyranitar, or Scarf Scizor to deal with Starmie
    - Sweepers to take advantage of the hazards
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2013
  2. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    I tried Choice Scarf, and it is actually very good. Sure, you lose to Scizor and Tyranitar, but it hits a great speed tier, and has enough power to revenge things.

    Gengar @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Trick / Thunderbolt

    Sludge Bomb in AC, as it guarantees an OHKO on Breloom (something HP Ice does not do), as well as a 2HKO on Celebi.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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  4. Namso

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    For the All-out Attacker set, I don't particularly think Will-O-Wisp is worth getting a slash. The stuff you'd be burning are typically better off taking a big hit or killed with Destiny Bond. Plus, the shaky accuracy is incredibly detrimental. I recommend leaving Destiny Bond in the last slot on its own. Or, you can slash Protect with it because it can definitely be helpful in certain situations. For example, you'd know what Scizor is planning to do and act accordingly, as well as Tyranitar. I'm not a huge fan of Focus Sash either, that's better left for Alakazam.

    This is just my viewpoint on the matter, so feel free to disagree.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
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  5. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Expert Belt should get AC as well as Icy Wind (although HP Ice is usually better). Gengar lures LandoT and Gadchomp so easily, and I'd mention Thunder Gar as a great parter to SunHO as it lures Toed out rather easily


    EDIT: Yeah Disable isn't that great anymore, sadly.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  6. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Is there a reason why Disable is slashed last on the Substitute attacking set? I think Sub Disable Gengar is one of its most dangerous sets right now, and although Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split are both really good moves, I think Disable should be slashed first or at least after Will-O-Wisp. I've never been a huge fan of the Pain Split set. The Sub Disable and Will-O-Wisp sets have always been MUCH easier for me to fit on my teams, and the Disable set is extremely good right now with all these choiced attackers and mono attacking walls. I've found it more successful at helping teammates sweep then the Pain Split set because it usually leaves them helpless, thus giving you a free turn to go into your sweeper and setup. Will-O-Wisp is also great right now because of how successful it is at luring things like Scizor, Garchomp, and T-Tar that would normally try to trap it or revenge kill.

    Maybe this is just a personal preference, but I think Disable should be slashed first or second. It's just so great ATM.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yeah you are right, WoW is somewhat situational and the low accuracy really sucks when you are not behind a Sub so i moved it to AC. D-Bond is now alone in the last slot. Protect is already used on Gengar's second set, so no need to add it here too.

    Actually, Expert Belt seems slash worthy as with the good coverage 3 attack Gengar has it gets a lot of super effective hits and is a nice alternative to EB, while also packing the nice Scarf-bluffing value. Also added both Thunder and Icy Wind in the AC of the new set.

    @Gary2346

    The QC team thinks that Disable is the least useful of the three moves so for now it stays third.
  8. Namso

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    I'm in a complete agreement with Gary regarding Disable, as it's one of Gengar's most threatening and effective sets when used with Substitute. It can actually prevent Pursuit users, priority users, and Choice Scarfed revenge killers from killing Gengar, not to mention potentially shutting down Pokemon relying on a single type coverage to break Gengar's Substitute. It can even bypass or simply force Blissey out, which is huge.

    I'm more inclined to think Will-O-Wisp is a worse option over Pain Split as well. Like, what makes Gengar that great of a burn spreader? I understand it can provide some surprise factor, but most of Gengar's common switch-ins, particularly Tyranitar and Scizor, are neutered significantly with Disable/Focus Blast, especially since they are commonly Choiced. And even if Gengar does burn those two, they still OHKO with Pursuit if Gengar switches out. It's just too frail to make great use of the move and, considering it basically 2HKOes most if the metagame with entry hazard support, you're better off firing those powerful attacks and either crippling revenge killers with Disable or restoring lost health via Pain Split. I'd much rather continue using Jellicent even if it's more predictable because it's a more effective burn-spreading Ghost-type than Gengar.

    I mean no disrespect, I'm just a little curious as to what the reasoning was behind making Will-O-Wisp better than Disable and Pain Split and why Disable is slashed last.
  9. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I understand that Pain Split + Life Orb + Sub is cool and all (even though I think it looks better on paper), but what exactly gives it a merit over Sub Disable? What walls other than the rare pink blobs is Gengar going to have trouble against? Specially defensive Jirachi's Iron Head can be disabled BTW and make it setup fodder, and Jellicent isn't going to come in on Gengar.
  10. Adamant Zoroark

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    Disable is really not as good as people give it credit for; it's so predictable it's not even funny. If you're relying exclusively on Choiced Pursuit users to beat Gengar, that's your fault and you need to take another look at your team. If your team is full of Pokemon that only have one move to hit Gengar, you fucked up somewhere. Even if you have a choiced Pursuit user out against Gengar and you go for Pursuit to break its sub, Gengar is going to need to use Disable if it wants to stay alive. You can predict this and switch to something else that can take on Gengar. If you win the prediction war and not the Gengar user, then Disable fails and Gengar is unprotected by a Substitute. If you're non-Choiced and have more than one move to hit Gengar, you just switch moves and Gengar can either keep using Substitute, use Disable and probably die to the other move due to its frailty, attack (that is, if Gengar can OHKO the opposing Pokemon before it OHKOes Gengar,) or switch to something that can take both moves. Yes, prediction goes both ways, but when basically everything becomes a 50/50, Disable becomes way less appealing in practice.

    Also, Gary, the point with Pain Split is that it allows Gengar to use Life Orb and Substitute without it being counter-productive, as Pain Split allows Gengar to recover HP lost due to Substitute and Life Orb. Without a power-boosting item Gengar is rather weak while the protection from Substitute is still a godsend, which is really what makes SubSplit worthwhile as it allows you to have both while still not losing too much longevity. The ability to run LO and Sub without being counter-productive is a trait Gengar only shares with Alakazam and maybe some other Pokemon that can run Sub and a recovery move, while Gengar is undeniably better than Alakazam at this feat as it has more resists/immunities than Alakazam and, as such, more opportunities to come in. The pink blobs may be fairly uncommon, but they are still a valid reason to use SubSplit Gengar since it can stall them out (have you ever tried to stall out the pink blobs with SubDisable? It'll never happen. They WILL drain out your Focus Blasts, and if you Disable Softboiled, they will switch out.)

    I have no experience with SubWisp, so I'm not going to comment on it.

    Note that I'm not necessarily saying Pain Split should be slashed before Disable (I would argue that it should be but I'm not QC,) I really just intended to make an argument for the positives of SubSplit and the negatives of SubDisable.
  11. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    O.k so right now, you are summarizing 2 problems with Sub Disable Gengar.

    Issue #1: Its predictable.

    To an extent, on the ladder, I can agree with this, for instance, if I see leftovers, and I hit it with like, Iron Head from my SDef Jirachi breaking its sub, then yes, I know that its potentially disabling me next turn (cos leftovers), and so I can switch to something else, avoid the disable, and it now no longer lacks a subsitute so I can kill / force it out now. Despite this, there is a very common response to this argument: Prediction goes both ways.

    That is why I tend to ignore this argument, because you are legitimately stating that the set is bad because you have been able to out predict someone using it. Following this logic, I could argue that Expert Belt Keldeo is "bad" because I can "predict around it". The point is, if you are using this arguement, be aware that it does go both ways. Consider the same scenario. I Iron Head it with my Jirachi as Gengar Substitutes. I see leftovers and predict the disable and switch out the following turn. But this time, Gengar decides to Substitute again instead of using Disable, and thus, I have fucked up, and something on my team is going to take damage from Shadow Ball.

    Issue #2: Its used for choiced Pursuits and thats it.

    This issue is IMO incorrect, because thats not what I would use Sub Disable Gengar for. If I wanted to use Sub Disable Gengar, I would use it because it cockblocks SDef Body Slam Jirachi, Sub Toxic Tentacruel, 2 Attack Terrakion, 2 Attack Landorus-T, Gliscor and so on. Sure, I will be the first to admit that Gengar will not beat "everything" but it utterly kills your momentum if you have one of these pokemon, and your opponent has Sub Disable Gengar. The bonus as well, is that if you have a Substitute up as your opponent brings in a scarfer, then you can Disable that mons move and gain even more momentum.

    I guess im making a point that your argument basically boils down to "I out predict Sub Disable Gengar on the ladder ergo Pain Split is better" whereas im just pointing out that prediction fully goes both ways.

    On topic I would prolly slash Pain Split first in that it is more "reliable" that Sub Disable, but thats just me.
  12. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Ginga, please don't quote me out of context. I entirely acknowledged the "prediction goes both ways" argument in my post.
  13. Namso

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    Yes, but the basis of your argument, @LucaroarkZ , is pretty much:

    Predictability.
  14. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Tbh Disable gars best merits is playing around god awfully annoying Toxicroak so it at least deserves AC
  15. Adamant Zoroark

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    @Fuzznip

    Yes that was the basis of my argument. And I'm saying I don't like how predictable it is. "Yes, prediction goes both ways, but when basically everything becomes a 50/50, Disable becomes way less appealing in practice." From my experience with SubDisable (both using and facing,) basically everything is a 50/50. When everything (or almost everything) is a 50/50... Where's its redeeming factor again? Possibly shutting down this Pokemon-Who-Only-Has-One-Move-To-Hit-Gengar Pokemon? Shutting down Choiced Pokemon? ...... meh.
  16. alexwolf

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    Yeah LucaroarkZ definitely has a point and it's the main reason that Disable is getting slashed third. For now Disable stays slashed third. Also:
    Scizor, Jirachi, and SpD Hippo, aka three of the most common switch-ins to Gengar, are hurt the most by WoW, which is the reason it is slashed first.
  17. Namso

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    248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor is 2HKOed by Focus Blast and Disable Gengar beats Choice Band variants easily. I'd rather kill Scizor right there when behind a Substitute (or switch out if it Bullet Punches) rather than burn it and switch out.

    Disable Gengar forces out Choice Scarf and most support Jirachi, making you gain a lot of momentum while the opponent loses it. Pain Split variants can also be a nuisance because Gengar can keep Pain Splitting/Substituting/Shadow Balling as Jirachi alternates between Iron Head/Wish/Protect.

    Hippowdon can't even hurt Gengar aside from Whirlwind and eventually will come a time when Hippowdon can no longer sponge two Shadow Balls in a row. Disable/Pain Split will still be effective moves.

    Meanwhile, Disable and Pain Split can cause more problems than to just three common switch-ins which those previously mentioned moves can already hamper. You're seriously underestimating it right now. Also, the shaky Will-O-Wisp accuracy is horrifying on such a frail specimen that is Gengar (ie: WoW misses as Scizor Bullet Punches to break your Sub, now you're forced out). I can't even begin seeing the merit behind using it over Disable/Pain Split because those two moves cause more problems than WoW would. Not to mention that if the opposition has cleric support, WoW Gengar's merit just plummeted. Btw, predictability arguments against Disable Gengar is weak and shouldn't be the primary reason for it to be neglected.

    I honestly don't get it and wish to be enlightened further if you don't mind.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Not all Scizor use CB. SpD Roost Scizor is only scared of WoW from Gengar for example. Also Focus Blast only has 49% chance to hit twice, assuming you guess correctly that Scizor is coming in, so that's a coinflip for you.

    Also, you are sorely mistaken if you think that SubDisable Gengar beats Scizor 100% of the time. SubDisable Gengar has a 50% chance at best to beat CB Scizor IF Scizor switches in on Gengar. In this scenario, Gengar uses Substitute as Scizor comes in. The next turn, Scizor can either use U-turn to break the Sub and go to a teammate faster than Gengar to take it out (U-turn: 27.09 - 32.06%) or go for the Bullet Punch. Similarly, Gengar has two choices, either hit Scizor with Focus Blast, or use Substitute to scout for Bullet Punch and Disable it next turn. If Gengar uses Sub as Scizor goes for U-turn Gengar is forced out. If Gengar goes for Focus Blast as Scizor uses Bullet Punch, Gengar is forced out. And factor in that things won't always go in Gengar's favor even if it predicts right thanks to FB's bad accuracy and you will see that the matchup is hardly in Gengar's favor. So yeah, making Scizor useless for the rest of the game with WoW, is definitely the best way to go about dealing with Scizor, especially considering that it has 75% accuracy and only needs to hit only one time to deal with Scizor.

    Thunder + Iron Head SpD Jirachi easily beats Disbale Gengar one on one. Without Thunder you can still beat Disable Gengar it just takes a longer time. Use Iron Head to break the first sub. Then, use Protect to prevent Gengar from disabling Iron Head. Heal with Wish whenever necessary. Rinse and repeat until Gengar goes down to Iron Head, while the only move he will be able to Disable is Protect. So Gengar loses against SpD Jirachi. I agree that Pain Split Gengar vs SpD Jirachi will become a stalemate, but it will be in Jirachi's favor because the turn that Gengar uses Pain Split it will be exposed to Jirachi's attacks. And while WoW Gengar can't defeat SpD Jirachi anymore than Pain Split or Disable can, it makes it significantly easier for the rest of the team to handle, which is a very big deal.

    Finally, it doesn't matter if Hippowdon can hurt Gengar or not, forcing you out still makes you lose 25% of your health (the health you spent on Sub) and makes you go through the trouble of coming in again. Crippling one of the best walls in OU that is used for checking a ton of Pokemon is much more useful than doing 25-30% damage before it phazes you out. WoW fucks up Hippowdon long-term you can't deny that.

    So yeah, WoW deals with three of the best switch-ins to Gengar, either in a short-term or a long-term manner, and is much more reliable than Disable.

    Btw all the above were me arguing why WoW > Disable not why WoW > Pain Split. I am not opposed to Pain Split getting slashed before WoW, as both moves are equally viable in my eyes, i just like a bit more WoW being slashed first because it can fit in more kinds of teams thanks to Lefties which makes it much less prone to residual damage. However, Disable is a clear third in my eyes because as already explained, it relies a lot on prediction to work, and prediction goes both ways.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2013
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  19. PK Gaming

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  20. AccidentalGreed

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  21. shrang

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    Just saying, I learnt this the hard way a long time ago, but Disable doesn't actually work if your opponent is locked into Outrage. Maybe add a little heads up to newer players who want to use SubDisable just to not try using Disable on Outrage if they don't want to die painfully?
  22. ginganinja

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    No this is how it works.

    Scizor switchs in as Gengar uses Substitute. Scizor can Bullet Punch if it wants, or it can U-Turn, I don't care, im still Focus Blasting it and scoring a 2KO. Sure, you might use Bullet Punch (but thats a huge risk), but either way I get huge damage on Scizor. It beats CB Scizor, because Scizor loses 2 much health from Focus Blast, AND still has to win a coinflip even if Gengar chooses not to Focus Blast.

    And Sub Disable Gengar beats SpD Jirachi with Iron Head + Bodyslam / T-Wave. What is your point here? WoW Gengar still risks losing to that Jirachi set (IMO) since Jirachi just spams Thunder. You need to hit WoW, spam Substitute to stall for burn damage, and hope that you can kill it with Shadow Ball before it kills you with Thunder.

    Not even going to respond to Hippowdon because I really don't see it switch into my Gengar often, or at all, its usually something else.
  23. Stone RG

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    Im no QC'er but id slash Thunder on the Destiny Bond set, as it beats tenta w/o needing to Dbond that way, not to mention its viable to pressure rain in general.
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  24. Kejmur

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    I realise this may be kind of late, but not even OO mention for Specs Gengar with Trick ? Tricking that Specs into something like SpD Hippowdon, Blissey or Jirachi is really crippling thing for them, so it's not totally hopeless against stall.


    Timid Focus Blast vs Max HP/Max SpD Tyranitar
    77.23%- 91.09% (100% OHKO with SR up if you use Modest Nature)

    Timid Focus Blast vs Bulky Swords Dance Scizor
    53.78%- 63.37%

    Timid Focus Blast vs 4 SpD Scizor
    83.63%- 98.58% (In other words 74,36% for OHKO with Leftovers + SR counted in)
    So you may not even need to run HP Fire if you don't feel like it and just go for example with WoW for double crippling status as you have great coverage in two moves anyway.

    While I agree that things like SpD Hippowdon or Jirachi can still tank hits from you, none other set even use Trick, so I think this OO mention should be up at least if you ask me and it still lure in things which counter/check him well so you may destroy/cripple them to the point of being unusable anyway.
  25. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    What people aren't realizing is that Will-o gives a way for Gengar to wear down jirachi, hippo and Scizor, making it easy to beat 1v1. Subdisable's sub will be broken and gengar will be forced out, but Will-o a scizor, and there's no prediction; just a useless scizor. Jirachi and hippowdon find the burn extremely detrimental as hippo needs to be at good health and will-o just fucks that up. Just my two cents.
    Will-o-wisp gengar easily beats scizor, and it doesn't need to STAY IN on jirachi. It has burned it and jirachi will find it a lot harder to wall stuff, so you can just switch out gengar.
    Edit- alexwolf
    Uhh, isn't it written up after 2 QC approvals?
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013

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