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Giratina-O (Substitute Shuffler)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by gookie, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. gookie

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    [SET]
    name: Substitute Shuffler
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Dragon Tail
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Outrage / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Griseous Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SDef / 84 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Giratina-O is vulnerable to status. However, unlike the SubCM set, this Giratina-O makes use of Substitute and Dragon Tail to phaze and shuffle the opponent's Pokemon, all while behind the safety of its Rhydon doll. Like the mixed attacker set, this set can also check Mewtwo with Shadow Sneak. Earthquake hits the increasingly popular Mold Breaker Excadrill, whom you conveniently outspeed, Dialga, the odd Heatran, and Tentacruel, all for super-effective damage. </p>

    <p>Outrage can also be used in the last slot, as it is strongest attack Giratina-O can wield; Outrage is also the only attack that Ho-Oh fears. Will-O-Wisp is usable but recommended with a bulkier spread, such as 164 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef / 84 Spe, with an Impish nature; it gives valuable chip damage against Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and also cripples physical attackers like Groudon and Extreme Killer Arceus. </p>

    <p>The Speed EVs give Giratina-O enough Speed to outpace 0 speed Tentacruel before it can attempt to burn you with Scald. Attack is maximized to give Giratina-O's attacks some bite; for example, Dragon Tail OHKOs Palkia after Stealth Rock. The defensive EVs might seem strange, however, 172 HP EVs allow only three uses of Substitute, whilst 164 HP EVs lets Giratina-O use Substitute four times; the remaining EVs are split evenly between its two defensive stats. </p>


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set benefits largely from entry hazards, as its main job is to stack residual damage and to hit hard with Dragon Tail. Therefore, pairing it with Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Deoxys-S is a good idea. Jirachi, Chansey, and Blissey also pair well with Giratina-O, as they have great defensive synergy and are able to pass Wishes onto it. Groudon doesn't take much damage from Giratina-O's attacks, but without Dragon Claw, it also fails to deal significant damage back, whilst Giratina-O will often outspeed Groudon's Roar and Dragon Tail it out. Substitute Lugia poses a significant threat, as Giratina-O can't hurt it and Lugia outspeeds Giratina-O even with no Speed investment, which means Whirlwind can phaze Giratina-O out before it can phaze Lugia with Dragon Tail. Without Stealth Rock support, Ho-Oh also proves a problem, as with Regenerator it can switch endlessly into this set provided Outrage isn't being used. If it doesn't get burned, Cloyster can break through Giratina-O's Substitute with Icicle Spear and do significant damage. </p>
  2. gookie

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    i'm uncertain about the set name,

    Substitute Shuffler?

    Substitute?

    or is physical attacker fine
  3. Jibaku

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    "Substitute" would be a confusing name because we have a SubCM set

    physical attacker seems odd for something whose job isn't to batter things down with sheer physical force. Substitute Shuffler or SubShuffler are fine.

    Seems like a fine set. I'm not sure how to optimize the EVs on this thing so I'll just leave it at that
  4. trickroom

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    Used this set and it was great. Oh yeah, Fireburn used it against me a long time ago but it got completely stomped by my Sub Lugia :)

    Mention somewhere if you don't mind under speeding Tentacruel and Jirachi you can just go max HP. Another problem here, Giratina-O gets way more physical bulk by investing everything in Defense instead of HP because of Giratina-O's naturally high HP stat. Since Giratina-O has so many resistances, max HP is better I guess but max Defense helps vs Excadrill, SD Arceus, Blaziken and possibly Ho-Oh.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  5. shrang

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    What does the 84 Speed outspeed? If it's not outspeeding anything significant, just drop it down to 0 to avoid speed creep.
  6. Bossness

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    84 speed outspeeds Tentacruel and Jirachi. This allows you to put up a subtitute before scald burn hax/thunderwave.
  7. Great Sage

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    The defensive EVs here are a real pain because 172 EVs is right on the cusp of where you should stop investing all EVs in HP. Due to the complex ways rounding affects damage, 164 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpD, 148 HP / 12 Def / 12 SpD, and 132 HP / 20 Def / 20 SpD all take turns being optimal against a variety of attacks. The 172 HP, 156 HP, and 140 HP spreads are undesirable because they are divisible by 4 and therefore only permit three Substitutes rather than four (yes I know this is contingent on no hazards, but when you have this many spreads that are about equally good, you need some way to pare them down).
  8. alexwolf

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    I believe that WoW should be in the third slot, alone. WoW is so important for the set, as it makes any non SD Groudon unable to break your sub no matter what (Stone Edge / Dragon Tail / Dragon Claw), which means that after you burn it will be complete and utter set-up bait. Even if it has Roar, the second time it comes in on you (it will be burned), it will be unable to do anything even with Roar (can't break the sub, can't phaze you).

    Yeah EQ is nice for Excadrill, but it's not as if WoW doesn't hurt Excadrill. And by the time Excadrill comes in, you will alrdy be behind a Sub, so you will always get a free hit on it. EQ would be ok to come into Excadrill as he uses SD, and then ohko, but offensive Exca can already OHKO Giratina-0 with Shadow Claw at +2,after SR, so it wouldn't be the best action to make.

    EQ is also not needed for Heatran, as by the time he will come in, you will already have a sub up, and he will be unable to do anything (can't break the sub, can't phaze), while it will get damaged by hazards and D-Tail.

    WoW is also amazing for any Normal Aceus that tries to set-up on you or attack you, as it effectively neuters it for the rest of the match.

    Finally with WoW, you are able to at least do something to opposing Skarmory instead of being total set-up fodder.

    I also believe that Shadow Sneak should be the first slash in the last slot, as it allows Giratina-0 to take a hit from a weakened faster poke, set-up a sub, and then kill it with SS, and keep the Sub. It also has the general utility that everyone knows, and has saved me many times.

    EDIT: Ignore the last sentence, i just saw that SS is already first in the last slot...
  9. gookie

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    eq hits dialga, which is kind of a big deal
  10. alexwolf

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    Yeah but the things that WoW does are more important than hitting Dialga, imo (not saying that 2hkoing Dialga is not a big deal).
  11. gookie

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    i disagree.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Btw what i am saying is not theorymon, i have been using a team with your Giratina-0 to great success. (btw this Giratina-0 is a masterpiece, and so is the Froslass set that you made). And from my experience WoW was used far more often than EQ, and had more impact whenever it was used. EQ was so unnecessary to me, that i scrapped it for Shadow Sneak. But you gotta admit that WoW is a fantastic tool to check Arceus-Normal, and this is one big selling point of it...
  13. Jibaku

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    I'd much rather Dragon Tail Extremekiller tbh since it has less chance of missing and without any defense EVs SDed Shadow Claw is going to do a ton.

    Anyways, WoW vs Dragon Tail

    Will-O-Wisp Advantages:
    - Lets Giratina-O actually do something against Ferrothorn/Skarmory. Ferro's Gyro Ball won't break its Sub after burn. Also lets it "hurt" Forretress.
    - Can cripple physical attackers like Groudon, Ground Arceus and Normal Arceus for the rest of the match

    EQ advantages
    - Can quickly dispose of Excadrill, Tentacruel, Heatran, and Dialga to an extent
    - Doesn't have 75% accuracy
    - Is not a negative priority move and is stronger than Shadow Sneak, which means you can revenge slower things with it.

    Hard to say which one's better but Earthquake seems to be a more consistent option

    EDIT: 2/3
  14. gookie

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    its largely for the sake of having a consistent attack that doesn't have negative priority or is quite weak and resisted on a lot of targets (shadow sneak) WoW's usefulness is already acknowledged in both AC and a slash.

    analyses are meant to give options to players anyway so really it's no big deal
  15. alexwolf

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    Yeah in the sense of '' Giratina-O needs a normal strong physical attack to use'', EQ should be third, because as said before it doesn't have negative priority, and it isn't laughably weak. But still i don't think that this Giratina-0 plays as ''normal'' pokes do, so i don't know if it needs a ''normal'' attacking move...

    Anyway i gave my input, the choice is up to you guys!
  16. gookie

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    well in this case it will be shadow sneak and earthquake competing for a slot, in which case i will just tell the reader to see if their team needs help against mewtwo, in which case shadow sneak is preferable, or perhaps it's weak to mold breaker excadrill in which case earthquake is more reliably than a 75% accuracy move (earthquake KOs off the bat as well)
  17. barry4ever

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    This set is truly amazing. This set takes the best qualities of Tina-O and merges them together to make an amazing set. It can really be a pain in the ass to face if you dont have the right mons to deal with it. This set actually shits on Excadrill thanks to Earthquake and beats practically every Spinner out there with ease provided Tina is behind a sub. But for one this will encourage fast Lugia usage so I'm happy :D. Nothing more to say really, just make some more mentions of the type of teams in which giratina-o fits in.

    QC Approved 3/3
  18. gookie

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    ready for gp ya'll
  19. Steven Snype

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    add/replace with
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    in progress (open)

    [SET]
    name: Substitute Shuffler
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Dragon Tail
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Outrage / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Griseous Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SDef / 84 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Giratina-O often suffers from being vulnerable to status from support Pokemon. is vulnerable to status. However, unlike the SubCM set, this Giratina-O abuses Substitute by shuffling opposing Pokemon with Dragon Tail behind the safety of its Rhydon doll. Like the mixed attacker, this Giratina-O can also check Mewtwo with Shadow Sneak. if it chooses to run it. Earthquake hits the increasingly popular Mold Breaker Excadrill (whom you conveniently outspeed), the multitude of Dialga for a 2HKO, the odd Heatran, and Tentacruel. </p>

    <p>Outrage can also be used in the last slot, as it is strongest attack Giratina-O can wield; Outrage is also the only attack that Ho-Oh will fear. Will-O-Wisp is usable, but recommended with a bulkier spread; it gives valuable chip damage against Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and also cripples physical attackers like Groudon and Extreme Killer Arceus. </p>

    <p>The speed EVs give Giratina-O enough Speed to outpace 0 Speed Tentacruel before it can attempt to burn you with Scald. Attack is maximized to give Giratina-O's attacks some bite; for example, Dragon Tail OHKOs Palkia after Stealth Rock. The defensive EVs may seem strange, but because 172 HP EVs yield a HP value divisible by four, it only permits 3 uses of Substitute. 164 HP EVs allows 4 uses of Substitute, whilst the remaining EVs are split evening amongst its two defensive stats. </p>


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This Giratina-O benefits largely from entry hazards, as its main job is to stack residual damage and hit hard with its fully invested Dragon Tail. Therefore, pairing it with Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Deoxys-S is a good idea. Jirachi, Chansey, and Blissey also pair well with this Giratina-O, having great type synergy and passing Wishes to it. Groudon won't take much damage from Giratina-O's attacks, but without Dragon Claw, it fails to deal significant damage back, whilst you will often outspeed and Dragon Tail it out. Substitute Lugia poses a significant threat, as Giratina-O can't hurt it and Lugia still outspeeds with no investment, meaning Whirlwind will phaze Giratina-O out before it can phaze Lugia with Dragon Tail. Without Stealth Rock support , Ho-Oh also proves a problem, as with Regenerator it can switch endlessly into this set provided Outrage isn't being used. If it doesn't get burned, Cloyster can break through Giratina-O's substitute with Icicle Spear and do significant damage. </p>

    <p>Finally, it must be stressed that this Giratina-O set excels with multiple layers of hazards and should not be considered without the use of Spikes. </p> No need of this. You said a similar idea in the first sentence of AC.


    [​IMG]
    GP Approved (1/2)
  20. gookie

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    implemented
  21. Cereza

    Cereza Tastes Like Candy

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    am check:3



    [SET]
    name: Substitute Shuffler
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Dragon Tail
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Outrage / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Griseous Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SDef / 84 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Giratina-O is vulnerable to status. However, unlike the SubCM set, this Giratina-O abuses Substitute by shuffling opposing Pokemon with Dragon Tamakes use of Substitute and Dragon Tail to phaze and shuffle the opponent's Pokemon, all while behind the safety of its Rhydon doll. Like the mixed attacker set, this Giratina-Oset can also check Mewtwo with Shadow Sneak. Earthquake hits the increasingly popular Mold Breaker Excadrill (, whom you conveniently outspeed), Dialga, the odd Heatran, and Tentacruel. , all for super effective damage.</p>

    <p>Outrage can also be used in the last slot, as it is strongest attack Giratina-O can wield; Outrage is also the only attack that Ho-Oh will fears. Will-O-Wisp is usable but only recommended with a bulkier spread<could you tell us the recommended spread?>; it gives valuable chip damage against Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and also cripples physical attackers likesuch as Groudon and Extreme Killer Arceus.</p>

    <p>The Speed EVs give Giratina-O enough Speed to outpace 0 sSpeed Tentacruel before it can attempt to burn youGiratina-O with Scald. Attack is maximized to give Giratina-O's attacks some bite; for example, Dragon Tail OHKOs Palkia after Stealth Rock. The defensive EVs mayight seem strange, but because 172 HP EVs yields a HP value divisible by four, it only permitshowever, 172 HP EVs allow only three uses of Substitute. while 164 HP EVs allow four uses of Substitute, whilstlet Giratina-O use Substitute four times; the remaining EVs are split eveningly amongst its two defensive stats.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This Giratina-Oset benefits largely from entry hazards, as its main job is to stack residual damage and to hit hard with its fully invested Dragon Tail. Therefore, pairing it with Pokemon likesuch as Ferrothorn and Deoxys-S is a good idea. Jirachi, Chansey, and Blissey also pair well with this Giratina-O, having great typas they have a great defensive synergy and are able to passing Wishes onto it. Groudon wodoesn't take much damage from Giratina-O's attacks, but without Dragon Claw, it also fails to deal significant damage back, whilst you will often outspeed and Dragon Tail it out<Dragon Tail has a negative priority so I don't know how you could outspeed and phaze it>. Substitute Lugia poses a significant threat, as Giratina-O can't hurt it and Lugia still outspeeds Giratina-O even with no Speed investment, which meanings Whirlwind willcan phaze Giratina-O out before it can phaze Lugia with Dragon Tail. Without Stealth Rock support, Ho-Oh also proves a problem, as with Regenerator it can switch endlessly into this set provided Outrage isn't being used. If it doesn't get burned, Cloyster can break through Giratina-O's sSubstitute with Icicle Spear and do significant damage.</p>
  22. gookie

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    can i have a stamp on this before i implement it?

    the dragon tail use vs groudon in question is giratina-o's dragon tail vs groudon's roar / dragon tail, in which case you will often outspeed. if that can be better worded (and it probably can) please advise
  23. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Looks good.

    [gp]2/2[/gp]
  24. gookie

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  25. Nexus

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    Uploading this one.

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