Metagame Godly Gift

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I'm voting DO NOT BAN for both.

* Mega-Sableye: My judgment doesn't change since yesterday.

* Deoxys-A:The suspect of a God is very different that a suspect of a receiver . In this suspect we judge Deoxys-A's teams and not the pokemon himself.

Let's explain the schema of a Deoxys-A team.

* ATTACK : Smeargle | Dugtrio | Marowak-Alola | Mimikyu | Araquanid | Pikachu |
* SPECIAL ATTACK : Swellow | Tapu Lele | Serperior | Tapu Koko | Araquanid |
* SPEED : Heracross-Mega | Marowak-Alola |

This isn't a restrictive list. So, this kind of team has 3 powerful sweeper who make a lot of damage to any pokemon without gift.

And for the other pokemons, we have the choice: hazard removal, spiker, trapper, sweeper, revenge killer :
* HP: Shuckle | Skarmory | Dugtrio |
* DEFENSE : Hoopa | Ditto | Nihilego | Pyukumuku
* SPECIAL DEFENSE : Kartana | Ditto | Pyukumuku

The Deoxys-A teams are classic.

When I saw the rules of this metagame, I was afraid of the power of HO Deoxys teams. But when I played against this type of team, I won because I could stall these.

I don't think like you Pipotchi, I think that M-Sableye teams destroy Deoxys-A teams. When the battle is a opposition Stall/Offense; the key of the victory is hazard control. And M-Sableye is a GOD in this issue. [ It's not the argument we need broken to counter broken because I think that Sableye doesn't deserve to be ban. ]

And if we play Shuckle teams ( It's a team with Shuckle as God ), we have 2 SUPER-Staller with respectly 614 of SPE Def and Def and we can Hardstall HO easily.

Deoxys-A is the most common pokemon in this tier and the most common God. But I consider that he doesn't deserve the ban.

That's just my opinion.

ps: Don't forget that SMOGON hates complex ban, so if you consider that (HP) M-Sableye is broken, so (Speed) M-Sableye will also be banshed.
 
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I'm voting DO NOT BAN for both.

* Mega-Sableye: My judgment doesn't change since yesterday.

* Deoxys-A:The suspect of a God is very different that a suspect of a receiver . In this suspect we judge Deoxys-A's teams and not the pokemon himself.

Let's explain the schema of a Deoxys-A team.

* ATTACK : Smeargle | Dugtrio | Marowak-Alola | Mimikyu | Araquanid | Pikachu |
* SPECIAL ATTACK : Swellow | Tapu Lele | Serperior | Tapu Koko | Araquanid |
* SPEED : Heracross-Mega | Marowak-Alola |

This isn't a restrictive list. So, this kind of team has 3 powerful sweeper who make a lot of damage to any pokemon without gift.

And for the other pokemons, we have the choice: hazard removal, spiker, trapper, sweeper, revenge killer :
* HP: Shuckle | Skarmory | Dugtrio |
* DEFENSE : Hoopa | Ditto | Nihilego | Pyukumuku
* SPECIAL DEFENSE : Kartana | Ditto | Pyukumuku

The Deoxys-A teams are classic.

When I saw the rules of this metagame, I was afraid of the power of HO Deoxys teams. But when I played against this type of team, I won because I could stall these.

I don't think like you Pipotchi, I think that M-Sableye teams destroy Deoxys-A teams. When the battle is a opposition Stall/Offense; the key of the victory is hazard control. And M-Sableye is a GOD in this issue. [ It's not the argument we need broken to counter broken because I think that Sableye doesn't deserve to be ban. ]

And if we play Shuckle teams ( It's a team with Shuckle as God ), we have 2 SUPER-Staller with respectly 614 of SPE Def and Def and we can Hardstall HO easily.

Deoxys-A is the most common pokemon in this tier and the most common God. But I consider that he doesn't deserve the ban.

That's just my opinion.

ps: Don't forget that SMOGON hates complex ban, so if you consider that (HP) M-Sableye is broken, so (Speed) M-Sableye will also be banshed.
It feels like you're just saying that because your specific stall team doesn't tend to have issues with Deoxys-A, then we shouldn't ban it. The inherent problem with an argument like that is, not everyone wants to run stall, and even less people want to run solely whatever stall composition you've thought up, effective or not.

Also, even if we conceded and agreed to your points about the Deoxys-A teams all being the same or at least very similar to each other, that still presents a problem in and of itself as it means you're just playing a coin toss where your chances of winning the game are either decided at teambuilder, or up to RNG--both of which were mentioned in posts above yours.
 
It feels like you're just saying that because your specific stall team doesn't tend to have issues with Deoxys-A, then we shouldn't ban it. The inherent problem with an argument like that is, not everyone wants to run stall, and even less people want to run solely whatever stall composition you've thought up, effective or not.

Also, even if we conceded and agreed to your points about the Deoxys-A teams all being the same or at least very similar to each other, that still presents a problem in and of itself as it means you're just playing a coin toss where your chances of winning the game are either decided at teambuilder, or up to RNG--both of which were mentioned in posts above yours.
Another thing to add onto this is that while Deo-A teams tend to be similar to each other, they are difficult to have counters to. Choice Specs Swellow has incredibly few non-incredibly niche switchins to Boomburst, Heat Wave, and HP Ground. Smeargle can fit into Attack or Special Attack slots and be a flat raw attacker, set up sweeper, or can run Spore as well as a set up move - or not - and due to its infinite coverage there is NO predicting what you may have to resist a hit. Mimikyu flat wins against a bunch of teams with attack since it can Swords Dance for free or Z-nuke a mon to get rid of them. Dugtrio speaks for itself. Heracross and Marowak-Alola hit stupidly hard with the speed bonus, and Magearna also fits there for kick starting Soul Heart.

Also, uh, we started a susp for MSab and we got enough of a reason to resuspect within a week, less than so. Saying Msab, this mon we're resuspecting, is alright and also reasoning Deo-A is alright because Msab stall, or more specifically you can beat Deo-A with stall, isn't a really valid point.
 
Thinkerino,
First of all, it's very difficult to say if M-Sab or Deo was broken without use our experience against these pokemon. I love this tier and I looked a lot of these battle and I saw ( in general ) that Hard-Stall had a better match-up against Deoxys-A teams.

After, the presence of Deoxys-A in this tier restrict the teambuilding of HO. In deed, if they pick Pheromosa or Deoxys, they lose against Deoxys-A teams because they're too slow.

I think a lot of battles are lost in the teambuilding in EVERY tier ( or win too ).
You know, if we play stall, we are coward, we ruin the metagame and we are noob, so we need a good match-up to win a battle. I'm kidding of course.

Evanile,
I'm agree with your start, the Doexys-A teams aren't varied, so predictable . And it's easy to make a Hard-Stall to counter them, not my teams necessarily.

We decided to not ban M-Sableye in the last suspect. It's not my fault if we resuspecting him.
Deoxys-A teams are counter by a lot of Hard-Stall, not necessarily M-Sab teams. But I agree with you, I don't make the suspect of Deoxys-A+M-Sableye, I make the suspect of Deoxys-A only, it's maybe a mistake.
 
Not sure how to ping people because I'm new to the forums, but to the post above mine, I think you've misinterpreted what I said. Nobody is trying to argue that stall is an illegitimate strategy; rather, going by literally what you said yourself, if I have to run one team, one stall team, just to beat a really common team comp, then why play at all? If that was the case then everyone on the ladder should just run shuckle stall to "counter" Deoxys-A teams. The point of a suspect test like this one is to address that problem, I think. When a Pokémon forces you to only be able to run one thing just to beat it (and mind you that you might not even face whatever it is you're trying to beat), that's the definition of overcentralizing if I've ever seen it. Now, while I'm confident that your stall team has a great matchup against other types of teams, you still seem to be forgetting that stall isn't the only playstyle people like to run. I'm not going to start only running "hard-stall" as you put it just because I can't beat Deoxys-A with any other method. Of course, all of this is being said under the assumption that I agree that your stall setup is the best counter. It has nothing to do with cowardice or ruining the metagame, it has to do with trying to leave room for diversification of playstyles. You keep coming back and making the same argument: just run x stall and the problem is solved, but that in and of itself just shows how much of an issue this is and why a suspect is necessary. Uhhh lastly, you agreed that it can cause auto-loss determination at teambuilder, and also said, and I quote, "...the presence of Deoxys-A in this tier restrict the teambuilding of HO." If you agree that it restricts the teambuilding process, then why are you voting do not ban? I might be misunderstanding you here, but it still looks like you're telling everyone to just run your exact team style in order to win against Deoxys-A teams. Obviously that may or may not be what's necessary to win, but in something so crucial as voting for whether or not entire Pokémon should be banned, I think it's important to be able to discuss both sides further than "just run this" arguments.

Edit: Srry for text wall (on mobile), so tl;dr once again, not everyone wants to run stall just to beat one team, and even less people want to play the ladder using just whatever you've come up, regardless of how good it is.
 
Well for something thats not sableye or deoxys related for a change heres a nom i wanna make, i want to bring your attention towards a underrated mon here

Doublade, aegislashs forgotten younger brother

Doublade has an amazing ghost/steel type combination that allows him to easily check many top tier threats thanks to impressive 9 resistances and 3 immunities, not to also mention it has massive 150 defense and the priveliges of using an eviolite

Unfortunately a big flaw of doublade is its special defense is pitiful, thankfully this can be remedied in godly gift! A doublade with kyogre's spdef/arceus's spdef + eviolite allows it to be incredibly bulky to take on threats from both sides that it couldnt before (like latios and zam for example)


Now heres some calcs on things it checks very well/counters (doublade has arceus's 120 spdef in all the special hits calcs)


Mega-Heracross
252 Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 40-50 (12.4 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO

252 Atk Heracross-Mega Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 30-35 (9.3 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

While being immune to cc
Also It cannot even break a doublades sub

Tapu Bulu
+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 86-102 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Kartana
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 45-53 (13.9 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO

Smeargle
252+ Atk (150 Atk) Smeargle Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 128-152 (39.7 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mega-Mewtwo X
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 41-48 (12.7 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO, it gets 3hko by earthquake if they carry it tho, but doublade still wins in 1v1

While all these mons are 2hko/1hko by gyro ball/sacred sword


Magearna
252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 56-67 (17.3 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 38-45 (11.8 - 13.9%) -- possible 8HKO

While also being immune to z focus blast and resistant to z fleur

Tapu Lele
252 SpA (154SpAtk) Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 86-102 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Serperior
252 SpA (154SpAtk) Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 69-81 (21.4 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 170-200 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its also 1hko'd by gyro ball into sneak

Mega-Zam
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 124-148 (38.5 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Xerneas
+2 184+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 144-170 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO, strongest move xerneas has against it, assuming it hits 3 times in a row unfortunately thunder will always hit (screw you no guard), but u still always beat this mon however if youre have above half hp
252+ Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (134 BP) vs. 240 HP / (+2 speed) 0 Def Xerneas: 446-528 (98.4 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Mega-Mewtwo Y
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 120-142 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. It only wins 1v1 against mewtwo y if it gets a higher spdef from kyogre (i think)

And gyro ball 2hkos/1hko every mon here


Other than being a good blanket check and a decent tank, doublade has a great 110 attack which it can take advantage of with swords dance and shadow sneak/sacred sword which allows it to become a potent late game cleaner

Aegislash-lite (Doublade) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
My standard set, full hp for maximizing bulk and full attack to hit as hard as possible. Gyro ball over iron head because it hits everything relevant much harder, with sacred sword to target steel types and shadow sneak for finishing off weakened threats

This set can make for a very good late game cleaner when everything is weakened, and doublades giant bulk makes setting up easier letting it grab 1 or maybe even 2 swords dance to start finishing off everything

Just forfeit (Doublade) @ Eviolite/Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball/Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak

This is the sub toxic set which is extremely bulky with 321 health and 338/372 (when recieving arceus's spdef) defenses, works pretty well against fatter teams that cant break doublades sub easily

and u can use either gyro ball with sacred sword for weakening threats or when getting taunted, or you can use swords dance with shadow sneak if u want to it to be a bulky set up sweeper


As for cons, doublade does have a few, as it has bad matchups against popular teams like groudon and kyogre, and its overwhelmed by knock off spam and fire types while no access to reliable recovery, but still that doesnt stop it from doing it job of walling out almost every psychic and fairy type, and i dont think d rank reflects that


Heres some replays too showing it in action
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-588254183 : where it completely blocks heracross from doing anything (which my team was very weak to)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-588260257 : where it sets up on a mewtwo x mid game and sweeps

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-588719339 : where it took down 4/6 of my opponents team

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-587385491 : against a deoxys team

Something extra i wanted your opinion on, What do you guys think of kingdra?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-587762411
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-588709652
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-587402514
It has incredible power with choice specs and has an excellent matchup vs offensive/HO teams even if they have a resist, i think it should be ranked if it isnt already


Well thats all, and i gotta say i think doublade has more than enough of a niche to be ranked
I nominate Doublade from: D > C+

Can aegislash be unranked or in the do not use already, its a terrible choice for a donor compared to the other c ranks like pheromosa and even zygarde and as a god/uber its just not that impressive to justify the god slot over literally any of the other gods, heck even shuckle outclasses it if u want a god with good defensive stats to pass around
 
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my vote for both is BAN.
my proof :https://imgur.com/gallery/TYKVD

honestly in terms of m sab at first i didnt think much of it , as i was using it on my own team , but I have to admit from what i have seen with it and against it and from others comments , the thing is extremely strong. Though pex is bulkier than m sab , m sab differs much in the fact that it is definitely not as passive. One particular thing is a metal burst set that had been circling around , that basically allowed it to ohko anything that could only 2hko it , (basically most of the tier). Honestly some may say use fairy moves to deal with it (fairy being its only weakness) honestly once you run a good sp.def nature it can live easily and on the right teams to the point of a 3 hko. On either def. or sp. def if its not se its pretty much not killing it without setup. Only real exception is swellow with specs boomburst or serp with specs or one leaf storm up. And evn then they potentially die to metal burst. Qnd besides once the person is smart enough they would bring something to cover such weaknesses such as a high sp.def av tang. To be honest the thing is almost as bad as pex and to some degree worse in that if you lack any real heavy dmg on it ur oretty much screwed. I admit that in many cases it can be broken past , and I am still not entirely for its ban , but this is just my feelings at the moment.

Now for deoxys attack. We cant deny that through it some very notable and destructive monsters have been born. Specs Swellow , 150 base speed maro/mega hera, and oddly enough even 180 base attack pikachu, just to name a few. The thing gives monstrous stats to some mons and honestly makes them significantly hard to wall (which is the point of ho which should be run deo a). It may be fun to use deo a but the fact is not all people wanna have to be forced to either use deo a or run a bulky team just to deal. Back when deoxys a wasnt banned it covered around 70% or even more of godly gift teams. If you ran balance like me , dealing with it was tough without good bulk, immunities or a strong scarfed mon. In many cases deo a team were often accompanied by the ring leader of stall m sab. or shuckle who hp was more than doubled in deo a's hp slot making it able to reliably setup sticky webs and rocks to make it even harder to check or counter the opposing deoxys a team. Also with lele on the team in some cases it made even revenge killing the mostly frail team with prio difficult , especially since lele in a spec. attack slot under psychic terrain was definitely a force to be reckon with. Mimi using a ghostium z off shadow claw off base 180 attack after a swords dance was night impossible to live without being immune or resisting its attack even then sometimes it still did its job. And we dont even need to explain how strong boomburst swellow is whether specs that pretty much 2-1 shots anything that doesnt have good sp.def or resists , not even immunities considering scrappy , or scarf that often allowed it to outspeed and deal with most of its counters. Alot may have enjoyed using deo a but we cant deny how busted the dmg output its allows for some slower or weaker mons. Deoxy a itself is also a threat on the team with it being able to easily run off either spectrum of atk or sp.atk or running. a mixed set.

Honestly this is just my current feel for these mon and my opinion based on what I have seen and watched in matches. If they are not banned it will be damn tough to work around them . However at the very least if one goes the other need sto go as m sab and deoxy a each counter or each other in a sense by team or by personal confrontation.
 
Screenshot_2017-06-13-14-56-09.png
BAN Deoxys-Attack.
NO BAN Sablenite.

I was quite unsure about my vote for Sableye, finaly I deciced to vote against a ban, and here's why:
  • It suffers from severe 4MSS, especially with Metal Burst being viable now. It can't run Will-O-Wisp, Foul Play (against physical setuppers), Knock off, Metal Burst, Protect (for safe mega evolution) and toxic at the same time, so that it has problems with some mons, depending on the chosen moves.
  • With the introduction of new powerful fairies, we got new viable checks for Sableye. Lele and Magearna can run CM sets to play around Metal Burst, while Sableye can't do anything to them in return. Also, any other monund with substitute can play around Sableye.
  • Sableye is setup fodder for special sweepers as they don't fear Foul Play or Will-O-Wisp. Also, after Metal Bursting a powerful hit, Sableye is usually crippled and due to its abysmal low speed, it is extremely difficult to recover its health, so that it is easy to kill.
  • If it lacks foul play, it is also setup fodder for physical sweepers which don't fear Will-O-Wisp (for example due to immunity or substitute)
  • Sableye's hazard control is actually necessary for Ho-oh stall or balance. Because Stealth Rock has more PP than defog, without Sableye they would need two defoggers or a leppa berry to prevent being PP-stalled.
 

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
Well for something thats not sableye or deoxys related for a change heres a nom i wanna make, i want to bring your attention towards a underrated mon here

Doublade, aegislashs forgotten younger brother

Doublade has an amazing ghost/steel type combination that allows him to easily check many top tier threats thanks to impressive 9 resistances and 3 immunities, not to also mention it has massive 150 defense and the priveliges of using an eviolite

Unfortunately a big flaw of doublade is its special defense is pitiful, thankfully this can be remedied in godly gift! A doublade with kyogre's spdef/arceus's spdef + eviolite allows it to be incredibly bulky to take on threats from both sides that it couldnt before (like latios and zam for example)


Now heres some calcs on things it checks very well/counters (doublade has arceus's 120 spdef in all the special hits calcs)


Mega-Heracross
252 Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 40-50 (12.4 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO

252 Atk Heracross-Mega Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 30-35 (9.3 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

While being immune to cc
Also It cannot even break a doublades sub

Tapu Bulu
+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 86-102 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Kartana
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 45-53 (13.9 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO

Smeargle
252+ Atk (150 Atk) Smeargle Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 128-152 (39.7 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mega-Mewtwo X
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 41-48 (12.7 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO, it gets 3hko by earthquake if they carry it tho, but doublade still wins in 1v1

While all these mons are 2hko/1hko by gyro ball/sacred sword


Magearna
252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 56-67 (17.3 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 38-45 (11.8 - 13.9%) -- possible 8HKO

While also being immune to z focus blast and resistant to z fleur

Tapu Lele
252 SpA (154SpAtk) Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 86-102 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Serperior
252 SpA (154SpAtk) Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 69-81 (21.4 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 170-200 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its also 1hko'd by gyro ball into sneak

Mega-Zam
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 124-148 (38.5 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Xerneas
+2 184+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 144-170 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO, strongest move xerneas has against it, assuming it hits 3 times in a row

Mega-Mewtwo Y
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 120-142 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. It only wins 1v1 against mewtwo y if it gets a higher spdef from kyogre (i think)

And gyro ball 2hkos/1hko every mon here


Other than being a good blanket check and a decent tank, doublade has a great 110 attack which it can take advantage of with swords dance and shadow sneak/sacred sword which allows it to become a potent late game cleaner

Aegislash-lite (Doublade) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
My standard set, full hp for maximizing bulk and full attack to hit as hard as possible. Gyro ball over iron head because it hits everything relevant much harder, with sacred sword to target steel types and shadow sneak for finishing off weakened threats

This set can make for a very good late game cleaner when everything is weakened, and doublades giant bulk makes setting up easier letting it grab 1 or maybe even 2 swords dance to start finishing off everything

Just forfeit (Doublade) @ Eviolite/Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball/Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak

This is the sub toxic set which is extremely bulky with 321 health and 338/372 (when recieving arceus's spdef) defenses, works pretty well against fatter teams that cant break doublades sub easily

and u can use either gyro ball with sacred sword for weakening threats or when getting taunted, or you can use swords dance with shadow sneak if u want to it to be a bulky set up sweeper


As for cons, doublade does have a few, as it has bad matchups against popular teams like groudon and kyogre, and its overwhelmed by knock off spam and fire types while no access to reliable recovery, but still that doesnt stop it from doing it job of walling out almost every psychic and fairy type, and i dont think d rank reflects that


Heres some replays too showing it in action
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-588254183 : where it completely blocks heracross from doing anything (which my team was very weak to)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-588260257 : where it sets up on a mewtwo x mid game and sweeps

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-588719339 : where it took down 4/6 of my opponents team

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-587385491 : against a deoxys team

Something extra i wanted your opinion on, What do you guys think of kingdra?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-587762411
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-588709652
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-587402514
It has incredible power with choice specs and has an excellent matchup vs offensive/HO teams even if they have a resist, i think it should be ranked if it isnt already


Well thats all, and i gotta say i think doublade has more than enough of a niche to be ranked
I nominate Doublade from: D > C+

Can aegislash be unranked or in the do not use already, its a terrible choice for a donor compared to the other c ranks like pheromosa and even zygarde and as a god/uber its just not that impressive to justify the god slot over literally any of the other gods, heck even shuckle outclasses it if u want a god with good defensive stats to pass around
I like your set but I'd just like to point out that thanks to No Guard, Xerneas will in fact hit Thunder every time.

No. It's not. When the guy who runs the entirety of PS shows up to tell you your suspect test was terrible, that's a pretty good indication the decision wasn't made with "DEMOCRATY."
Let's not make fun of broken English because we disagree with the person's point, yes? Especially when the person in question had made it clear that English is not their first language.

Moving on... I feel like the goal of this suspect test is not as clear as it could be (at least to me). What type of meta are we going for? The answer I think I'll get is one where a) one god does not dominate and b) it's possible to build diverse teams from the same viable god. But I'm not sure. What do you guys think?
 
Not sure how to ping people because I'm new to the forums, but to the post above mine, I think you've misinterpreted what I said. Nobody is trying to argue that stall is an illegitimate strategy; rather, going by literally what you said yourself, if I have to run one team, one stall team, just to beat a really common team comp, then why play at all? If that was the case then everyone on the ladder should just run shuckle stall to "counter" Deoxys-A teams. The point of a suspect test like this one is to address that problem, I think. When a Pokémon forces you to only be able to run one thing just to beat it (and mind you that you might not even face whatever it is you're trying to beat), that's the definition of overcentralizing if I've ever seen it. Now, while I'm confident that your stall team has a great matchup against other types of teams, you still seem to be forgetting that stall isn't the only playstyle people like to run. I'm not going to start only running "hard-stall" as you put it just because I can't beat Deoxys-A with any other method. Of course, all of this is being said under the assumption that I agree that your stall setup is the best counter. It has nothing to do with cowardice or ruining the metagame, it has to do with trying to leave room for diversification of playstyles. You keep coming back and making the same argument: just run x stall and the problem is solved, but that in and of itself just shows how much of an issue this is and why a suspect is necessary. Uhhh lastly, you agreed that it can cause auto-loss determination at teambuilder, and also said, and I quote, "...the presence of Deoxys-A in this tier restrict the teambuilding of HO." If you agree that it restricts the teambuilding process, then why are you voting do not ban? I might be misunderstanding you here, but it still looks like you're telling everyone to just run your exact team style in order to win against Deoxys-A teams. Obviously that may or may not be what's necessary to win, but in something so crucial as voting for whether or not entire Pokémon should be banned, I think it's important to be able to discuss both sides further than "just run this" arguments.

Edit: Srry for text wall (on mobile), so tl;dr once again, not everyone wants to run stall just to beat one team, and even less people want to play the ladder using just whatever you've come up, regardless of how good it is.
I see this metagame like Uber Tier. And an Uber deserves the ban IF this pokemon is monstrous, horrific. Only one pokemon deserve this qualification ( M-Ray) and he really is. And I think that Mega-Sab and Deo-A isn't SO horrific.

But if we see the metagame like OU tier , we need to ban all the pokemon who are so good that they centralize the metagame . It's OU's politics. If we see this tier like OU, we need to ban both.

With this suspect test, a lot of different HO teams appeared ( Deoxys | Deoxys-S | Mewtwo | Pheromosa ), so this type of team is now more varied. BUT I don't care of the argument of " Overcentralizing ". In deed, for example, P-Groudon is a overcentralizing mon ( in Uber ) and NOBOBY wants ban him.


The Ruins of Alpha has said THE KEY QUESTION of this double suspect:

" What type of meta are we going for? "
 

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
I see this metagame like Uber Tier. And an Uber deserves the ban IF this pokemon is monstrous, horrific. Only one pokemon deserve this qualification ( M-Ray) and he really is. And I think that Mega-Sab and Deo-A isn't SO horrific.

But if we see the metagame like OU tier , we need to ban all the pokemon who are so good that they centralize the metagame . It's OU's politics. If we see this tier like OU, we need to ban both.

With this suspect test, a lot of different HO teams appeared ( Deoxys | Deoxys-S | Mewtwo | Pheromosa ), so this type of team is now more varied. BUT I don't care of the argument of " Overcentralizing ". In deed, for example, P-Groudon is a overcentralizing mon ( in Uber ) and NOBOBY wants ban him.


The Ruins of Alpha has said THE KEY QUESTION of this double suspect:

" What type of meta are we going for? "
I would really hesitate to call that the key question of any suspect. I only asked it because I'm not sure we can classify this as a 'normal' metagame with our normal expectations of centralization and such, given that every team has a very set archetype based on the god. When you treat a metagame as something with a goal I often find they become people's pet projects with them keeping in their favorite mons to play no matter how unbalanced they are... not referencing anyone in particular of course cough Regigigas in mnm cough gos:x

I suppose this is my fault for not being clear enough... let's see...

I'm curious as to what definitions of broken and overcentralizing can be said to apply here and how they differ from a standard environment or another om like say AAA or STABmons where there's only one banlist for mons (and then some things from the core mechanic banned, abilities in AAA and moves in STAB). Because one Deo-A team may not differ hugely from another, but imo neither does one Dialga team, or one Shuckle team, or one [insert god here team] differ from another of the same species. Is this centralized or stale? I think it's something that's an inherent part of the meta. If I'm wrong here someone please correct me, I know I'm an expert of any sort on the meta.

What I've noticed in this suspect is a lot of people getting snippety with each other about whether something (primarily Mega Sab) is broken, without seeming to have a base of agreement as to the definitions they're using for calling it that. Those definitions are what I'd like to thrash out, but I'm not really sure how to do that.

iLlama could you at the least confirm whether this meta's ban policy is more similar to Ubers or OU, and possibly comment more on what I've said? If I need to be more clear that's fine I sorta confused myself by this point.
 
View attachment 83567
BAN Deoxys-Attack.
NO BAN Sablenite.

I was quite unsure about my vote for Sableye, finaly I deciced to vote against a ban, and here's why:
  • It suffers from severe 4MSS, especially with Metal Burst being viable now. It can't run Will-O-Wisp, Foul Play (against physical setuppers), Knock off, Metal Burst, Protect (for safe mega evolution) and toxic at the same time, so that it has problems with some mons, depending on the chosen moves.
  • With the introduction of new powerful fairies, we got new viable checks for Sableye. Lele and Magearna can run CM sets to play around Metal Burst, while Sableye can't do anything to them in return. Also, any other monund with substitute can play around Sableye.
  • Sableye is setup fodder for special sweepers as they don't fear Foul Play or Will-O-Wisp. Also, after Metal Bursting a powerful hit, Sableye is usually crippled and due to its abysmal low speed, it is extremely difficult to recover its health, so that it is easy to kill.
  • If it lacks foul play, it is also setup fodder for physical sweepers which don't fear Will-O-Wisp (for example due to immunity or substitute)
  • Sableye's hazard control is actually necessary for Ho-oh stall or balance. Because Stealth Rock has more PP than defog, without Sableye they would need two defoggers or a leppa berry to prevent being PP-stalled.
I just want to comment on your points for Mega Sableye quickly as they are quite inaccurate.
  • Mega Sableye is not limited by 4 move slots, as the every Mega Sableye should carry Will-O-Wisp, Recover, Some sort of attacking option (i.e. Foul Play), and filler. Metal Burst and Knock Off would both constitute as filler options as they are based on what you want to cover, however Metal Burst is generally the better option. Protect and Fake Out aren't necessary on Mega Sableye in Godly Gift because any Pokémon that would reasonably threaten it out, i.e. Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Clefable, do not/will not carry hazards so there is no reason for Mega Sableye to stay in. Even if an opposing Clefable did happen to use Stealth Rock for this specific situation, stall teams in this meta are so incredibly bulky that allowing hazards up one time in lieu of switching Sableye (pre-Mega) into any corresponding check/counter is not even a remote issue to the stall teams overall performance. You aren't really saving your Mega Sableye for anything, you're just waiting until you gain that favorable matchup one time by pressuring your opponent with Mega Sableye's insane teammates (as explained in my previous post regarding possible viable checks/counters to Mega Sabelye).
  • I already addressed this in my previous post and why these Pokémon aren't realistically able to do much, if anything, to the rest of Mega Sableye's team meaning the may win against Mega Sableye in a 1v1 scenario, but in the overall game, they lose to the stall's overwhelming defensive coverage and bulk. Here's the link for reference.
  • Again, common stall teammates cover setup threats so this is not an issue for Mega Sableye. Even after Metal Bursting and taking massive damage, it is still reasonable for the stall team to be able to Wish pass onto at some point in the game, especially if the opponent wants to set hazards or status the stall Pokémon at any point otherwise their hopes of breaking the stall core is extremely limited. Also, using Metal Burst should only be used in scenarios where there is no other option for the stall team, so it is reasonable to believe that this would be late game and would ultimately favor the stall team anyways rather than it happening right away. Beyond that, Mega Sableye getting a KO with Metal Burst is NOT a 1-to-1 trade. The stall team wins that engagement nearly every time, even if Mega Sableye as 1 HP, because now the opponent is down a Pokémon while the stall team still has the potential to heal Mega Sableye or to fodder it off at some point to gain switch advantage or shut down the opponent's momentum.
  • Mega Sableye realistically shouldn't lack Foul Play as it's simply the best attacking option it has so this point is moot.
  • This point doesn't really make sense to me as 1) Mega Sableye's Magic Bounce is an addition to hazard control and 2) multiple hazard control Pokémon, whether it be double Defog or Defog and Rapid Spin, is completely viable on stall teams. That and the fact that Ho-oh being the god doesn't make much of a difference as to the necessity of Mega Sableye and even if it did that would not be an argument defending Mega Sableye's place in the metagame. If a highly specific team build utilizing Ho-oh for stall didn't work as well without Mega Sableye then so be it. You either adapt or you use something else. It's not like Ho-oh is one of only 3 viable God Pokémon in this meta or something extreme like that, it's simply another option.
I see this metagame like Uber Tier. And an Uber deserves the ban IF this pokemon is monstrous, horrific. Only one pokemon deserve this qualification ( M-Ray) and he really is. And I think that Mega-Sab and Deo-A isn't SO horrific.

But if we see the metagame like OU tier , we need to ban all the pokemon who are so good that they centralize the metagame . It's OU's politics. If we see this tier like OU, we need to ban both.

With this suspect test, a lot of different HO teams appeared ( Deoxys | Deoxys-S | Mewtwo | Pheromosa ), so this type of team is now more varied. BUT I don't care of the argument of " Overcentralizing ". In deed, for example, P-Groudon is a overcentralizing mon ( in Uber ) and NOBOBY wants ban him.


The Ruins of Alpha has said THE KEY QUESTION of this double suspect:

" What type of meta are we going for? "
I would really hesitate to call that the key question of any suspect. I only asked it because I'm not sure we can classify this as a 'normal' metagame with our normal expectations of centralization and such, given that every team has a very set archetype based on the god. When you treat a metagame as something with a goal I often find they become people's pet projects with them keeping in their favorite mons to play no matter how unbalanced they are... not referencing anyone in particular of course cough Regigigas in mnm cough gos:x

I suppose this is my fault for not being clear enough... let's see...

I'm curious as to what definitions of broken and overcentralizing can be said to apply here and how they differ from a standard environment or another om like say AAA or STABmons where there's only one banlist for mons (and then some things from the core mechanic banned, abilities in AAA and moves in STAB). Because one Deo-A team may not differ hugely from another, but imo neither does one Dialga team, or one Shuckle team, or one [insert god here team] differ from another of the same species. Is this centralized or stale? I think it's something that's an inherent part of the meta. If I'm wrong here someone please correct me, I know I'm an expert of any sort on the meta.

What I've noticed in this suspect is a lot of people getting snippety with each other about whether something (primarily Mega Sab) is broken, without seeming to have a base of agreement as to the definitions they're using for calling it that. Those definitions are what I'd like to thrash out, but I'm not really sure how to do that.

iLlama could you at the least confirm whether this meta's ban policy is more similar to Ubers or OU, and possibly comment more on what I've said? If I need to be more clear that's fine I sorta confused myself by this point.
To answer both of you, in short, we are not following OU or Ubers in regards to our banlist or suspects. We are following our own set of reasoning in order to attain a healthy metagame that allows for, as some have put it, "creativity and fun" as well as a balanced meta that doesn't force people to run specific Pokémon or team compositions in order to find success.

What does this mean with regards to how we have acted upon Deoxys-A, Mega Sableye, and Toxapex?

First, with Toxapex, our reasoning for quick-banning it was fairly clear and simple. It restricted teambuilding to force users to have certain supereffective Pokémon on their team that could put out insane amounts of damage in order to take it out, let alone chip it down enough so that it isn't bailed out by Recover, Regenerator, or a Wish pass. Reasonable checks to Toxapex with a boosted HP stat were far and few and depended on massively boosted attack stats in order to manage it, forcing people to utilize certain God Pokémon not out of personal interest, creativity, or ingenious teambuilding, but out of absolute necessity in order to succeed in the tier. This meant that HP boosted Toxapex was inherently broken in Godly Gift and that it was also overcentralizing, thus it was banned.

Now onto Mega Sableye, the first Pokémon to receive a suspect and almost immediately after the meta had begun as June's OMotM at that. The reasoning behind the suspect stemmed mainly from concerns over current and past council members of Godly Gift, as well as users who have extensively played the meta at the higher level, as to if Mega Sableye would be more manageable in this generation compared to last generation. Last generation Mega Sableye was obviously a broken Pokémon and you can check the old thread in cryonics for more details. This generation however, with the inflow of new Fairy-types and such, we weren't really sure if it would turn out to be a the broken Pokémon that it once was. To summarize this, it did. In addition, with the banning of Toxapex the meta shifted heavily into Mega Sableye's favor even though it never returned to the ladder. For one, Mega Sableye now instantly became the best possible option for HP on just about any team, regardless of the team being stall, balance, or HO. There is no longer any real competition over the HP slot and thus Mega Sableye can use this to its advantage and become a blanket check for any team as well as a hard counter to hazards and status, something, for example, that HO would greatly appreciate as hazards, namely Sticky Webs, can shut this archetype down with relative ease. Moving on, as I explained in my last post, which should be linked above, the new supposed checks/counters to Mega Sableye that came in this new generation, turned out to only beat Mega Sableye on paper, in 1v1 situations. With regards to stall specifically, these supposed checks/counters cannot beat common stall cores, both with and without extremely boosted attack stats, and what's crazy about this is most of these new Pokémon are shut down by Mega Sableye's same teammates from the last generation meaning nothing had changed. In addition to that however, even if these specific checks and counters to Mega Sableye were able to break the stall core, that would still make Mega Sableye overcentralizing in Godly Gift, as people would have to utilize these specific (and very few in number) Pokémon that could both beat Mega Sableye and common teammates. This in itself was the reason that we held the original suspect, failure or not. During that suspect however, what really came to light was how Mega Sableye and its team variants were not only a powerful check/counter to Deoxys-A teams, they were also sort of a leash keeping them at bay from running through any teams that did not either match the offensive output of Deoxys-A teams or attempt to shut them down via immense and unreasonable bulky team builds.

Deoxys-A as a Pokémon is not broken in Godly Gift, that is a fact. Deoxys-A gifting its insane stats away, namely the 180 attack stats that go far and beyond other prospective God Pokémon is both broken and overcentralizing. In the Deoxys-A meta you have two choices: 1) compete with it head on with an insane HO team, ultimately coming down to luck in speed ties or who can keep hazards up or 2) design a highly defensive team with incredibly specialized builds in order to attempt to counter most, common Deoxys-A teams. What does this mean for the meta? Basically it makes only two archetypes viable; highly defensive builds, namely stall, and hyper offensive builds, namely other Deoxys-A teams. Utilizing lesser God Pokémon against an average Deoxys-A team simply doesn't work because they can't take the brunt of the Deoxsy-A teams force, let alone manage the ridiculous variety that each one can carry from the next. This is why Deoxys-A gifting stats is something that needs to be addressed. It makes the meta come down to who is prepared to face Deoxys-A HO and who is not. Just because you may have made a team that can handle Deoxys-A does not mean that you can expect every other person to use that team, build a similar team, or force themselves to play a certain way simply because the meta is so highly skewed into a certain God Pokémon's favor. If you don't believe me, look at the ladder right now and pick between say 10 different matches currently going on. A week ago I can confidently say that Deoxys-A teams would have been used by 50% of those users, not just 50% of the games. I also bet that every one of those Deoxys-A teams was using a different insane attack or speed boosted Pokémon that you could not confidently cover for without a highly defensive stall build or an equally threatening HO build. Is that the type of meta, one where either you join in on abusing a certain Pokémon or do everything you can to counter it, that you want to play in? Can you reasonably believe that that is a healthy meta that most people if not everyone can truly enjoy? I most certainly don't think that it's enjoyable and it was not something that I wanted to play.
 
Something I feel like bringing up, even if it may have been discussed countless times here either through myself or everyone else...

iLlama has the perfect point of one simple statement: "Deoxys-A as a Pokémon is not broken in Godly Gift, that is a fact. Deoxys-A gifting its insane stats away, namely the 180 attack stats that go far and beyond other prospective God Pokémon is both broken and overcentralizing." This describes Deoxys-Attack perfect as many people could easily make the argument that "oh, Avalugg with Special Defense hard walls it, it barely does anything and I can recover against Superpower!" But what comes as an issue isn't Deoxys, but everything else.

With the options that Deoxys has for giving stats to others, such as in the Attack slot Mimikyu, which decimates offense with a single hit of invincibility and the ability to run Life Orb, Z-Move, Lum Berry, or even a Focus Sash alongside Swords Dance to rend teams apart; Smeargle, who sits there and shits all over anything (Don't tell me anything walls it, since FakeSpeed, Bonemerang, Sunsteel Strike, V-Create, and everything else exists alongside Shell Smash); Zygarde, which after a Coil or Dragon Dance, has next to no true counters and doesn't necessarily need coverage bar Tarrows and Espeed, as nigh everything will get hit neutrally or super-effectively by it; Dugtrio, which traps any answer you have to Deo-A's assault and will nuke it off the face of the earth, and more niche mons such as Stallbreaker Light Ball Pikachu or Sap Sipper Serp Counter Azumarill, you're a wee bit restricted for teambuilding. This relates to either your Gods or the Pokemon that receive the stats.



No, I don't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE to run things such as Dialga, Reshiram, or other fun gods that aren't often used, or Pokemon such as Attack Sableye (on second thought don't use that), Special Attack Pikachu, or Speed Mimikyu. It's more that its hard to build teams around them when either the stats they give (for the gods), the utility they provide, or even both may not hold up to something that can beat Deoxys-Attack, such as Giratina or Lugia stall teams. RegenCore teams such as Ho-Oh/Tang/Alomomo also do this job, as well as tailored offense, but this doesn't relate to every team used.


Non-Deo Offense can run Mimikyu or Dugtrio in Attack slots with Deoxys-N or Groudon to attempt to have occasional answers to these extremely hard hitting mons, but Mimik dies to either Sunsteel or will die after taking one single hit (particularly from faster mons or some forms of priority) and Dugtrio is horrible after its Sash breaks due to previous damage, Hail, or Rocks. Ninjask with Attack or Special Attack is very likely to outspeed Deo-A threats, but even then Mimikyu and the abundance of Focus Sashes is troublesome. Other fast Pokemon, such as Tapu Koko, Greninja, and Kartana can provide a way to punch holes in their teams, but many Deo-A teams also carry Sticky Web.

Balance can run a few other things. AV Tangrowth with 100/120 SpDef can wall certain special attackers and can manage physical hits, but it gets overwhelmed and can have trouble dealing with strong SE hits, as well as not getting as much spdef on certain Gods like Deo-N, Deo-S, or Groudon. Alomomola does a similar job almost just as well, in addition to Wishpassing, but it can struggle if the Deo-A has a Serperior, Koko, or other Electric/Grass type. AV Ho-Oh can sit in front of Deo and most Special Attackers for quite some time, but the second Rocks are on the field it's about fucked. SpDef Buzzwole can bunker down against almost anything besides Fairium nukes and Deo-A itself, and with 120, 154, or even the rare 230 SpDef it can take most hits fairly well, but also requires you to run Buzzwole and likely lose a ton of momentum on switchin. Ditto also exists, which also can be used on Offense, but have fun dealing with Mimikyu and Focus Sashers.


So, now we've got a good list here. Offense has Mimikyu, Dugtrio, Ninjask, Koko, Greninja, Kartana, and a few other fast mons, and Balance has Tangrowth, Alomomola, Ho-Oh, Buzzwole, Ditto, and a bunch of other mons. I can't go list everything since I myself don't have the best of experience with the meta. Stall is also an option, with Lugia/Giratina/Giratina-O/Ho-Oh being viable options as gods there.



...Doesn't that sound a bit boring? I don't know if its just me, but I don't see too much variation I can use here. With Deo-A as the undoubtedly most popular God (Popular =/= Needs ban, but keep reading) before this (In a tournament of roughly 16 players, every match I had, including Grands, was Deo-A, and most of the matches I had to watch while waiting were Deo-A), preparation for it was a necessity rather than a 'want'. You couldn't run into the field and expect to win using just your favorite mons getting buffed through your favorite Uber. If you did so, Deo-A would come by and snatch you up and fling you away, teaching you a lesson in the process. I don't need to truly 'prepare' for any other Hyper Offense-based Gods in this regard, but instead can just run your regular answers to those such as Priority, Hazards and Hazard Control, and Pivot moves. Stall is the same way; I don't need to prepare for Giratina Stall exclusively, then worry about Lugia Stall, Ho-Oh Semi-Stall, and then Shuckle. Instead, just running a stallbreaker if need be or a hard hitting setup mon is all that's necessary.

Deo-A kind of ruins games by that. You have to prepare for it and it alone, as if Deoxys-Attack teams are their own archetype of team you must prepare for. No other god forces you to do that, as well as no god provides as much utility in a single slot (imo) than Deoxys-Attack. You don't get an offensive nuke, Spiker, Taunter, good Lead/Wincon, all in one slot.



[[[[TL;DR: Deoxys-Attack makes everyone prepare for it which none of the other gods even come close to doing, so its annoying as hell.]]]]



yay for ranting.
plsdonthurtme
 

That was VERY difficult. Players have gotten smarter and making a consistent team is REALLY hard, to the point that I must forget thinking about Wish passing support to Pdon because... it just doesn't work. Despite the difficulties, I must admit that I enjoy this meta and I hope it gets picked for OMotM again in the future after cooldown.

Anyway. My vote for Mega Sableye is ban. Reasoning is this.

Nothing really counters Mega Sableye. The closest thing you get as a Msab counter is Clefable (and even then, it must be Magic Guard because Msab sometimes carry Toxic). All the mons I mentioned in above post either can't switch in, or they can't handle certain sets. Every hard-hitters that fails to 1HKO (nothing 1HKOs msab due to bulk, really) got 1HKO'd back by Metal Burst. Every Swords Dance booster that plans to break Msab got hit by Foul Play. You see what I'm getting at? There's very limited counterplay to this mon and when you found one, it is handled by it's teammates.
My vote for Deoxys-A is abstain. Why?

Tbh, after laddering for a while, I met Deoxys-N and Pheromosa teams. Either it's just my team is bad or I misplayed, but I find both Deoxys-N and Pheromosa teams as annoying as Deoxys-A. Because of this, I'm starting to wonder if Deoxys-A isn't the problem but the follower is. That's why I can't decide for now.
 
upload_2017-6-14_10-36-12.png


Mega Sableye: Ban

This thing is too bulky. Yes, this is ubers and we have mons like Shuckle which are also bulky. The biggest difference is Mega Sableye gets recovery, foul play and will o wisp to deter special attackers, and blocks every hazard setter except for mold breaker excadril and clefable (bar special attacking dazzling gleam klefki, which, let's be honest would only be used for mega sableye). When backed by other bulky mons, a team must be completely specialized to beat a team backed by Mega Sableye, which means that you lose to other matchups such as HO and sometimes balance.

Deoxys-A: Ban

While I haven't had too much trouble with this mon, it is very constricting to build a team without thinking of this mon. I found myself scrolling down to NU looking for an answer to it, and the only semi-consistent options were spiritomb and alolan-muk (which loses to physical variants). Paired with Tapu Lele to block priority, a special attacker like Swellow, and a physical attacker like Mimikyu, I have had a very hard time stopping Deo-A teams. Perhaps there are better answers out there, but this thread has yet to convince me of any being viable.

Here is the team I used to ladder. It isn't great, but scarf ogre caught a lot of people by surprise.

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 40 HP / 216 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Toxic

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 112 Def / 140 SpD
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- Magnet Rise
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Scald
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 240 HP / 176 Def / 92 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn

Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Blizzard
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
 
You can use power construct zygarde to give someone 216 hp, right? If you put power construct on something, it becomes uber. At least I'm pretty sure that's how the OU banlist works; it bans power construct, not Zygarde-c.
Well, effectively, it does ban Zygarde-Complete due to the fact that PC is used to summon it.
 


Mega Sableye:BAN

I don´t feel like enough has changed for Sableye to make it healthy for the metagame. It is incredibly hard to beat due to all of its viable sets including metal burst and CM which have different checks and counters. With the ban of Toxapex, it also lost its best competition for the HP slot so it can run metal burst easier now. Overall Mega Sableye just doesn`t have enough answers and can beat some of its answers with metal burst and I think banning it would create a better metagame.

Deoxys Attack:BAN

I think that deo-A is unhealthy for the metagame. Deo-A is a special case because we need to look at teams instead of just one pokemon. I feel like the question here is that are deo-a teams broken or do they at least have the potential to be broken. I think that the answer is yes. The sheer variety of threaths that deo-a can use is astounding. A deo-a team is structured in a certain way. Basically its deo-a, 2 filler and 3 boosted mons. deo-a is usually a lead set, filler is usually ditto+a niche mon that provides something unique for the team like dugtrio or a spinner. The boosted mons consist of setup sweepers and choice users. Preparing for deo-a is almost imposibble with you having to prepare for Lele,Swellow,Serperior,Mega Heracross,Smeargle,Koko,Greninja,Zygarde,Mimikyu,Nidoking,Ashninja and Comfey. And thats not even all of them as there are plenty of other options to choose from. I have been spamming deo-a since the start and I believe that its banworthy.
 

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Well, effectively, it does ban Zygarde-Complete due to the fact that PC is used to summon it.
Zygarde-Complete as a god (so in fact a Zygarde-50% or Zygarde-10% with Power Construct) doesn't give Zygarde-Cs stats, it gives the base form's stats, so that you get Zygarde-50%'s or Zygarde-10%'s stats. It is exactly the same as with Megas and Primals, you only get the stats of the base form and not those of the Mega/Primal evolution.
 
Zygarde-Complete as a god (so in fact a Zygarde-50% or Zygarde-10% with Power Construct) doesn't give Zygarde-Cs stats, it gives the base form's stats, so that you get Zygarde-50%'s or Zygarde-10%'s stats. It is exactly the same as with Megas and Primals, you only get the stats of the base form and not those of the Mega/Primal evolution.
Actually I tried this when Toxapex wasn't banned and it gave the complete form HP stat.
 

With Toxapex and Sableye gone, I searched for new options for the HP slot in my Lugia stall team (Dusclops, Lugia, Clefable, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Ttar-Mega). The obvious choice would be the little turtle you shouldn't fuckle with, but it is the best taunt fodder in the entire game and its only way to prevent the opponent from abusing it as setup fodder is Encore, which not only has only 8 PP, so that it can be PP-stalled, it also can be played around easily with proper prediction. And who needs webs in a stall team? xD So I decided not to fuckle with shuckle and searched for other mons with good defenses but pitiful HP - and finally found Dusclops, which has 130 in both defenses with only 45 HP - and even access to Eviolite, giving it defense stats which almost match those of Shuckle.

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Haze
- Night Shade

Sadly Dusclops's only recovery sources are Rest and Pain Split, the latter would be a nice option when running vanilla Dusclops due to its low HP, but is invalidated when its HP stat gets buffed, so that I opted for rest. Thanks to its enormous bulk (and thanks to Heal Bell support from Clefable) I don't need to run sleep talk, allowing me to use Night Shade in the last slot to prevent being taunt fodder.
Haze is a reliable anti-setup option - and noone expects Haze coming from a Dusclops xD - while Will-O-Wisp weakens physical attackers even more and provides some chip damage. Night Shade prevents Dusclops from being taunt fodder and hits, unlike Chansey's Seismic Toss, Ghost types, while it can't hit normal types - which are quite rare apart from ExtremeKiller Arceus, which doesn't like burns.
Pressure is a surprisingly useful ability on a mon like this, making stall vs stall matchus much easier for me and also allowing me to PP-stall offensive mons with ease.

However, Dusclops also has its weaknesses. It should avoid Knock Off as it doesn't like to lose the eviolite; but even without an Eviolite, it is still very bulky, allowing it to continue doing its job especially against more defensive teams. It has not very much resistances, but also only two weaknesses to Dark and Ghost, so that it takes neutral damage from most attacks, and it is quite passive despite having Night Shade for dealing damage and has to sleep two turns after using rest, becoming incapable of elimination stat boosts with haze, allowing the opponent to take advantage of this.

What do you think of Dusclops in the HP slot?
 

With Toxapex and Sableye gone, I searched for new options for the HP slot in my Lugia stall team (Dusclops, Lugia, Clefable, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Ttar-Mega). The obvious choice would be the little turtle you shouldn't fuckle with, but it is the best taunt fodder in the entire game and its only way to prevent the opponent from abusing it as setup fodder is Encore, which not only has only 8 PP, so that it can be PP-stalled, it also can be played around easily with proper prediction. And who needs webs in a stall team? xD So I decided not to fuckle with shuckle and searched for other mons with good defenses but pitiful HP - and finally found Dusclops, which has 130 in both defenses with only 45 HP - and even access to Eviolite, giving it defense stats which almost match those of Shuckle.

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Haze
- Night Shade

Sadly Dusclops's only recovery sources are Rest and Pain Split, the latter would be a nice option when running vanilla Dusclops due to its low HP, but is invalidated when its HP stat gets buffed, so that I opted for rest. Thanks to its enormous bulk (and thanks to Heal Bell support from Clefable) I don't need to run sleep talk, allowing me to use Night Shade in the last slot to prevent being taunt fodder.
Haze is a reliable anti-setup option - and noone expects Haze coming from a Dusclops xD - while Will-O-Wisp weakens physical attackers even more and provides some chip damage. Night Shade prevents Dusclops from being taunt fodder and hits, unlike Chansey's Seismic Toss, Ghost types, while it can't hit normal types - which are quite rare apart from ExtremeKiller Arceus, which doesn't like burns.
Pressure is a surprisingly useful ability on a mon like this, making stall vs stall matchus much easier for me and also allowing me to PP-stall offensive mons with ease.

However, Dusclops also has its weaknesses. It should avoid Knock Off as it doesn't like to lose the eviolite; but even without an Eviolite, it is still very bulky, allowing it to continue doing its job especially against more defensive teams. It has not very much resistances, but also only two weaknesses to Dark and Ghost, so that it takes neutral damage from most attacks, and it is quite passive despite having Night Shade for dealing damage and has to sleep two turns after using rest, becoming incapable of elimination stat boosts with haze, allowing the opponent to take advantage of this.

What do you think of Dusclops in the HP slot?
Dusclops on paper already seems nicer than Shuckle, as with Will-O-Wisp and Haze, you can bunker down for quite some time and let opponents wail on it and recover off the damage. Unlike Shuckle, it actually has some form of presence as well with Will-O crippling many common physical setup or sweeper mons such as Mimikyu, Rayquaza, Dugtrio, and Dragon Dance sweepers and Night Shade for consistent damage. 130/130/130, 150/130/130, or 106/130/130 with Eviolite is very respectable bulk, incredibly good for tanking nearly everything in the game. Unlike Shuckle, whose main role is either a temporary tank, Setup with Encore, Sticky Web, and Stealth Rock, or a suicide lead, Dusclops is a more long-term investment without the ability to setup but a stronger survival ability. However, Knock Off, Taunt, and setup mons that CAN 2hko after a single boost with the +1, +2, or +3 hit and then a neutral hit after the Haze will render Dusclops really poor. But He's probably got a good slot utility for HP.

...i remember the days where Dusclops was good in OU...



Now have some calcs of this thing eating shit from everything in the meta.

252 Atk Mimikyu (150 Atk) Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (106 HP): 204-242 (49 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mimikyu (150 Atk) Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (130 HP): 204-242 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mimikyu (150 Atk) Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (150 HP): 204-242 (40.4 - 48%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (130 HP): 219-258 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (150 HP): 219-258 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
(106 HP gets 2hko'd gaurenteed)

+1 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (106 HP): 145-172 (34.8 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (150 HP) 145-172 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO (Gaurenteed on SR, but for comparison)

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (106 HP): 230-272 (55.2 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (150 HP): 230-272 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Dusclops (150 HP): 471-555 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (106 HP): 299-354 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops (150 HP): 299-354 (59.3 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this Arceus calc assumes they even GET to +6, considering Haze is an option.


Do note, though, that these attacks do a LOT more once you get Knocked Off, so avoid those at all costs.
 
EDIT: BAN to both. Deoxys overcentralizes the entire meta, and sab will be way harder to beat once hoopa-u is the best deoxys substitute.

Forfeited last two just to get 20 battles lol sry to opps
Have to go now, will post ban/no ban soon. Probably either both or neither cause having one but not the other in the tier will not make it fun to play imo
btw for the suspect what is the cutoff going to be for ban/no ban? Simple majority? (50%) Supermajority which is usually used? (60%) 2/3rds? Or some other percentage that is to be decided by Illama after the suspect ends
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Forfeited last two just to get 20 battles lol sry to opps
Have to go now, will post ban/no ban soon. Probably either both or neither cause having one but not the other in the tier will not make it fun to play imo
btw for the suspect what is the cutoff going to be for ban/no ban? Simple majority? (50%) Supermajority which is usually used? (60%) 2/3rds? Or some other percentage that is to be decided by Illama after the suspect ends
View attachment 83618
In order for something to be banned, there must be a 60% supermajority.
 
Now that I have met the requirements, I feel as though I should share my thoughts.

First, I find it necessary to analyze the meta today, without either Mega Sableye or Deoxys. It is quite clear that hyper offense is weakened as a playstyle quite a bit. When Deoxys-Speed is subbed in for Deoxys-Attack, the offensive presence of these teams goes way down. Of course, neither form is broken on their own, it is rather the teams they create we must look at. For Deoxys-Attack, I find these teams to be centralizing and generic. It's usually Ditto/Kartana/Deoxys/Heracross-M/Serperior or Tapu Koko/Mimikyu. I've seen several that have one or at most two different members than those listed, but they look mostly alike. It's not fun to play against, but it is fun to play. Opponents are forced to run niche mons with specific sets designed just to beat this playstyle, or even to try to run an even more offensive team in hopes of overwhelming it. Since the suspect test began, I have seen more playstyles emerge with viability, and there is no longer a playstyle I would say is metagame-defining. This is a noticeable improvement.
For these reasons, I will vote to BAN Deoxys-Attack.

Sableye is an interesting case. It can be passed speed, HP, or even attack/sp.attack. In that last form, it acts as an okay tank, but often it needs that investment in defenses to be viable. Speed doesn't scare me, and never has. Without the added attack/sp.attack, it is not hard to simply live hits and kill. So then, to me, the question asks if Sableye with around 120 base hp is broken in this game. It certainly becomes bulkier, and there is just a single type that is supereffective. In this tier, viable fairies include Koko, Clefable, etc, but there are not an overwhelming number of options. So on paper, it looks fairly broken. Let's see how this stacks up in practice. It is not going on offensive teams. It just isn't. It is going on more defensive or stallish teams, with a nice ability to prevent hazards and to absorb hits. I think that every respectable offensive team has a breaker. In the same way that shuckle with HP is hard to kill, what I find is that it ultimately dies. It has plenty of checks and a number of counters, and in my opinion, does not force opponents to run niche crap. Serperior, Koko, Clefable, etc. which are all pretty popular and valuable.
For this reason, I will vote to KEEP Mega Sableye.
 

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