Metagame Godly Gift

Well i think it should be considered, it should be available as an option, its an uber after all not a anything goes poke

I find it weird that m-gengar is not banned in any uber metagame (from normal ubers to mix and mega to whatever else) but here it was just quickbanned?

If we can handle stuff like mega mewtwo y here why is mega gengar such a big deal, even compared to other shadow tag'ers it cant even do encore/trick shenengians and boost till +6, and stall does have answers to it [see: pursuit dugtrio/tyranitar], not even mentioning it has a huge opportunity cost

I think least a suspect test should be made to let the community decide ifs its broken or not

And if sleep/trapping turns out to be the problem, then cant we just make a complex ban like ubers that stops this strategy

Outside rn, gonna continue later
It should not be considered at all? If you played last generation you'd know STag is out of hand, and that was just with Gothitelle. Dugtrio and Tyranitar are definitely not answers, as Mega Gengar has ways to immobilize them (Disable, Hypnosis). iLlama has already stated he won't be allowing Gengarite, for good reason, so there's no point in continuing this discussion. In any case, there are plenty of more interesting and fair Pokemon to consider.
 
When we have decided to ban Toxapex, M-Sableye, and Deoxys-A, we considered that this metagame is much closer to OU than Uber.
If we're LOGIC, we need to not allow M-Gengar. Why ? Let's make your argumentation iLlama :

M-Gengar has 3 sets :

  • Gengar @ Gengarite
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 84 SpD / 176 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Perish Song
    - Protect
    - Taunt
    - Substitute
  • Gengar @ Gengarite
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Hypnosis
    - Substitute
    - Hex
    - Sludge Wave
  • Gengar @ Gengarite
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Destiny Bond
    - Sludge Wave
    - Shadow Ball
    - Taunt
I don't invent them, it's in http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/gengar/ .

The set of Perish Trapper kill all of these mons:
  • All Shuckle.
  • All Clefable.
  • All Tangrowth.
  • Alomomola.
  • Defensive Buzzwole.
  • Skarmory.(" If you don't want to be trap, use Shed Shell ", YOU KIDDING ME ? )
  • Mantine.
  • Quagsire without Earthquake.
  • Defensive Azumarill .
  • Ferrothorn.
  • Gastrodon ( Earth Power make only 60%).
  • Pyukumuku.
  • Slowbro-Mega and Slowbro and Slowking without Psyshock.
  • Suicune.
  • Tapu Fini.
  • Venusaur-Mega.
  • Amoonguss.
  • Gligar.
  • Porygon2.
  • Necrozma.
  • Vapoeron.
  • Bronzong.
  • Registeel.
  • Chesnaught.
  • Florges.
  • Defensive Guzzlord.
  • Defensive Snorlax and Munchlax.
  • Avalugg.
PT M-Gengar kill 66% of Staller. ( I counted with the Viability Rankings that 31 stallers is killed by this set)

For "counter" this set of M-Gengar, we have 3 choices of staller:

* Use a ghost: Dusclops

* Use a super-effective STAB:
- Gliscor
- Landorus-T
- Muk-A
- Espeon
- Mandibuzz
- Umbreon
- Hippowdon
- Latias
- M-Steelix
- Cresselia
* Use VoltTurn :
- Scizor-M
- Zapdos
- Lanturn
- Rotom
- Xatu

1+10+5=16. Only 16 Stallers cannot be Perish Trap by M-Gengar. ( 31/47=66%)

If we play a Stall team, STATISTICALLY, M-Gengar can Perish Trap 4 mons in your team. For an example: I use this team:

HP (Shuckle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Infestation

ATT (Ditto) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 0 Spe
- Transform

DEF (Clefable) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Heal Bell

ATT SPE (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Drill Peck
- Roost
- Whirlwind

DEF SPE (Hippowdon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Slack Off
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Toxic

SPE (Slowking) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Psyshock
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Dragon Tail

M-Gengar will destroy Shuckle, Clefable and Skarmory without any problems. And I refuse to put Shed Shell to Shuckle, Clefable or Skarmory.

I don't think that I'm over-exaggerating the impact of M-Gengar in this metagame.


Perish Trap M-Gengar is BROKEN. Perish Song isn't abuse at all. So we can't ban Perish Song. We can't ban Perish Song with M-Gengar because it's a very complex ban and Smogon hates this. So, we NEED to continue the ban of M-Gengar.
 
It should not be considered at all? If you played last generation you'd know STag is out of hand, and that was just with Gothitelle. Dugtrio and Tyranitar are definitely not answers, as Mega Gengar has ways to immobilize them (Disable, Hypnosis).
As illama said, how does the gen 6 ban decision affect this gens? In ou greninja was broken last gen but it isnt anymore as its checked by celesteela,magearna, koko...etc

And well that was with gothitelle, she can do her trick thing on any defensive poke and either completley cripple it or use it as setup bait as it has decent bulk, m-gengar cant do any of this except perish trapping (which is why im suggesting some kind of clause on perish+trapping to fix this, ubers did a similar thing with sleeptrapping, we could do a similar clause but with perishtrapping)

iLlama has already stated he won't be allowing Gengarite, for good reason, so there's no point in continuing this discussion. In any case, there are plenty of more interesting and fair Pokemon to consider.
Uh no he didnt? Did you even read his last post? He said hes wont be allowing shadowtag but he literally just asked for our opinion on mega gengar. Oh and If it is a pointless discussion for u then fine dont participate or just say what u want and go, other people have something to say

I brought up the topic of Gengarite while you shifted to Shadow Tag in general, brining up Gothitelle and Wobbuffet which is banned discussion.

If you're referring to the original OU banning of Mega Gengar, it became an Uber because it was a broken Pokemon stat wise, and on top of that, it had Shadow Tag (which was unbanned in OU at the time) which threw it over the top. Not sure why that decision in gen 6 OU affects this situation, but ok. Mega Gengar only donates the base form's 500 total base stats, so I'm not sure how the comparison with Salamence and Metagross is even remotely relevant. The real reason both Mega Salamence and Mega Metagross are terrible God Pokemon in Godly Gift is 1) they donate lower stats than the better gods and 2) they aren't very good on their own in the metagame.

I think you're over-exaggerating here quite a bit. The real concern with Gengarite is whether or not the Perish Trap set will ruin Godly Gift, which I'm not sure about, i.e. why it's a discussion topic. If Gengarite were to be unbanned, it's not like Mega Gengar can come in and just 1v1 every Stall team and instantly win. That's ridiculous. If you think that Mega Gengar will turn stall from a great archetype into one that is unplayable then that means that stall has no viable way of stopping it. This means that the multiple stall compositions that work exceedingly well in Godly Gift, i.e. Regenerator core, Lugia builds, Arceus builds, Giratina builds, etc. all lose to Mega Gengar and Gengar-boosted Pokemon, which I really don't see as being true. Beyond the stall builds, you also need to consider what Pokemon are viable and common in Godly Gift to see how it would affect them directly. Judging from common Pokemon you would find on stall both offensively and defensively and with say Ho-oh as the God, let's see how non-Perish Trap Mega Gengar fairs. Using the set Taunt/Shadow Ball/Sludge Wave or Bomb/Focus Blast:
  • Ho-oh forces Mega Gengar out.
  • Clefable with boosted SpD+ stalls it out of Sludge Wave/Bomb with Wish/Protect. Taunt stops this.
  • Specs/LO Swellow gets outsped and KOed.
  • Dugtrio traps Mega Gengar, KOing with EQ if it still has sash or with Sucker Punch.
  • Mimikyu is Ghost-type, has Disguise, and Shadow Sneak if Mega Gengar is not at full.
  • Shuckle loses to Taunt after Mental Herb is exhausted.
  • AV Tangrowth has about a 4% chance of being 2HKOed by Sludge Wave with no investment in SpD while EQ 2HKOes Mega Gengar.
  • Alomomola threatens Scald burn and Mirror Coat while also being able to Wish/Protect stall. Taunt stops Wish/Protect.
  • HP Gliscor forces Mega Gengar out.
  • Skarmory loses. Can run Shed Shell in lieu of Leftovers without losing much, but take that as you please.
  • Tyranitar (Max HP, Max Atk, Choice Band) loses to Focus Blast. If Focus Blast misses, Pursuit OHKOes. SpD Tyranitar (Max HP and about 160 SpD+ invest) lives Focus Blast and OHKOes with Crunch, threatens Pursuit trap as well.
  • Normal Quagsire above ~66% forces Mega Gengar out. SpD invested Quag forces out without being 2HKOed by Shadow Ball.
  • HP Bulky Mega Scizor forces Mega Gengar out.
  • Normal SpD Celesteela forces Mega Gengar out and can switch in freely.
  • Gastrodon forces Mega Gengar out.
  • Muk-Alola can switch in freely and trap Mega Gengar.
I'll just cut it off there because I only want the most common stall receivers that I've seen. From this, all that I see is that Mega Gengar in general is unbearable for stall and it definitely does not ruin the archetype. Which I guess narrows the point of interest down to, 'will Perish Trap Mega Gengar be able to single-handedly ruin the metagame?' I'm not sure how to answer this myself because instinctively you want to say, 'Yes, Perish Trap Mega Gengar ruins Godly Gift," but then you have to consider why it isn't banned in other metagames, such as Ubers, where Perish Trap is a legitimate set option. Does Mega Gengar instantly become broken in a meta that has Pokemon utilizing Uber-like/gifted stats but aren't Ubers themselves? Is being allowed to use Mega Gengar a fair trade-off for having to use it as the team's God Pokemon, ultimately forcing 3 of the team's Pokemon to have to already be very good Pokemon in Godly Gift on their own, otherwise they're taking a handicap? Will Perish Trap Mega Gengar have the team support and sustain to make it a broken threat?
Highlighted some important things in my opinion, the reason illama is probably bringing it up is to see if its broken or not, thats a legitimate question please dont have this "ill not listen to anyone it was broken last gen so theres no discussion about it even" attitude, it was broken last gen due to its combination of high stats and st, the question is, is it still broken now?

To be honest i think people are overexaggerating m-gengars capabilities, to suggest it actually virtually threaten just about every single stall style, thats absurd yes it can trap some of the more popular ones like clefable/shuckle and skarmory but not singlehandidly cripple stall

but i may be wrong who knows, that why i support a suspect to see if its actually broken or not, i mean it wont hurt so why not
 
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As illama said, how does the gen 6 ban decision affect this gens? In ou greninja was broken last gen but it isnt anymore as its checked by celesteela,magearna, koko...etc

And well that was with gothitelle, she can do her trick thing on any defensive poke and either completley cripple it or use it as setup bait as it has decent bulk, m-gengar cant do any of this except perish trapping (which is why im suggesting some kind of clause on perish+trapping to fix this, ubers did a similar thing with sleeptrapping, we could do a similar clause but with perishtrapping)

Uh no he didnt? Did you even read his last post? He said hes wont be allowing shadowtag but he literally just asked for our opinion on mega gengar. Oh and If it is a pointless discussion for u then fine dont participate or just say what u want and go, other people have something to say

Highlighted some important things in my opinion, the reason illama is probably bringing it up is to see if its broken or not, thats a legitimate question please dont have this "ill not listen to anyone it was broken last gen so theres no discussion about it even" attitude, it was broken last gen due to its combination of high stats and st, the question is, is it still broken now?

To be honest i think people are overexaggerating m-gengars capabilities, to suggest it actually virtually threaten just about every single stall style, thats absurd yes it can trap some of the more popular ones like clefable/shuckle and skarmory but not singlehandidly cripple stall

but i may be wrong who knows, that why i support a suspect to see if its actually broken or not, i mean it wont hurt so why not
Alright, admittedly I didn't quite catch the end of his post, but then again, your arguments for a suspect are incredibly weak. "to suggest it actually virtually threaten just about every single stall style, thats absurd yes" This is not absurd in the slightest. As stall is coming has mentioned earlier, the list of things it traps and kills is huge, which, by the way, is not just limited to stall Pokemon. It sets the benchmark very high with its Speed stat. Anything slower than it immediately is at threat of death unless they have ways of being immune to sleep. I don't know about you but I don't know many people that would enjoy playing a metagame where games are decided by whether or not Gengar can hit Hypnosis or not. It absolutely is the best stallbreaker this game has ever seen, that's a fact. There's no need to suspect test this when it is very apparent through observing other metagames and basic theorymonning that it's OP. You'd need Shed Shell on important Pokemon like Alomomola or Tangrowth to avoid being trapped and killed off, which hinders their effectiveness. It's so effortless how it can kill off these Pokemon. Just how can you defend this?
 
If you're referring to the original OU banning of Mega Gengar, it became an Uber because it was a broken Pokemon stat wise
Gengar has good stats, but they're not broken. Alakazam-Mega has pretty similar stats, with even higher SpA and Spe, and is far from being broken. The thing which makes Gengar broken and an Uber is Shadow Tag.
 
Alright, admittedly I didn't quite catch the end of his post, but then again, your arguments for a suspect are incredibly weak. "to suggest it actually virtually threaten just about every single stall style, thats absurd yes" This is not absurd in the slightest. As stall is coming has mentioned earlier, the list of things it traps and kills is huge, which, by the way, is not just limited to stall Pokemon. It sets the benchmark very high with its Speed stat. Anything slower than it immediately is at threat of death unless they have ways of being immune to sleep. I don't know about you but I don't know many people that would enjoy playing a metagame where games are decided by whether or not Gengar can hit Hypnosis or not. It absolutely is the best stallbreaker this game has ever seen, that's a fact. There's no need to suspect test this when it is very apparent through observing other metagames and basic theorymonning that it's OP. You'd need Shed Shell on important Pokemon like Alomomola or Tangrowth to avoid being trapped and killed off, which hinders their effectiveness. It's so effortless how it can kill off these Pokemon. Just how can you defend this?

Well to be fair, hypnosis trapping is not a problem i was worried about because theres a sleep-trap clause for it in ubers, so if illama theoratically brings back m-gengar to godly gift, there has to be a clause of sleeptrapping just like there is in ubers, so your concern should not be a concern, and without hypnosis (and for perish song i personally think that perish song + trapping moves/shadow tag should be banned but thats a topic for another day) m-gengar is basically just another hard hitter with high speed

without hypnosis/perish song, gengar is basically just a special dugtrio being not that threatening as its beaten by most pokemon on offense such as a-marowak/swellow/heracross/deoxys, and by speed control on balance such as a scarfer (which is necassary anyways not only for m-gengar but for deoxys teams too)

And u mentioned m-gengar beating many mons in stall, but you forget to mention m-gengar loses to as much mons found on stall as the amount of mons it beats, as illama states in his post

im not saying hes not potentially broken, im just saying its not as broken as everyone makes it to be

also on a side note stall is comings team is just weak to trapping (azu whirlpool/perish song) in general like magnezone can kill skarm easily while special dugtrio can kill off clefable quickly and just paves way for another mon to sweep

Well ive said all what i wanted, im not for or against an unban, just supporting a suspect for it (including other mons like m-metagross but thats another topic for another day) just because why not.
And as i dont want to drag this argument along forever ill guess ill just leave it at just that and let the council decide
 
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iLlama, you mention that Gengarite is being considered for an unban. My question is, as a god, as follower or both? You didn't mention if it's as a god or as a follower.

Because as a god, I don't see any problem with it. Hell, idk why you didn't unban Gengarite as a god in the first place. It gives trash stats in all but SpA and Speed, and it's not particularly high either. BUT, as a follower, it's a different story and I definitely don't agree with that.

Also, I still think some Ubers can be unbanned as a follower. Like, Mega Metagross. I don't see anything wrong with this, and before you use OU's reasoning for ban, OU is VERY different than Godly Gift, so OU's reasoning for ban isn't valid here. It's also supported by having WAY more checks than OU (I mentioned the checks in post #283). Also, Mega Metagross is exactly the same as last gen and people had NO trouble with it, so why is everyone against it now?

Another mon that can be considered is Genesect, thought it's more controversial. Mons being WAY bulkier and faster here means that it's more easily checked. Yeah, I know I can say that to, say, Darkrai or Blazikeen, but if you consider Genesect's movepool, it's mostly Special based, with very limited physical options. I think this is more controversial though, Mega Metagross is a "better" choice.

Darkrai, Blaziken, Landorus I, Aegislash, all I can say is, NO. Darkrai and Blaziken can run through teams with setup moves and high Speed or Speed Boost, and they still have great coverage options. Landorus I is already pretty fast and with higher Special Attack, it hits too hard. Aegislash, well... you want to face a 120 / 150 / 150 defenses Aegislash? If it were me, I'd say no.
 
iLlama, you mention that Gengarite is being considered for an unban. My question is, as a god, as follower or both? You didn't mention if it's as a god or as a follower.

Because as a god, I don't see any problem with it. Hell, idk why you didn't unban Gengarite as a god in the first place. It gives trash stats in all but SpA and Speed, and it's not particularly high either. BUT, as a follower, it's a different story and I definitely don't agree with that.
As a God. I think I alluded to that at different points, but I didn't outright state that.
Also, I still think some Ubers can be unbanned as a follower. Like, Mega Metagross. I don't see anything wrong with this, and before you use OU's reasoning for ban, OU is VERY different than Godly Gift, so OU's reasoning for ban isn't valid here. It's also supported by having WAY more checks than OU (I mentioned the checks in post #283). Also, Mega Metagross is exactly the same as last gen and people had NO trouble with it, so why is everyone against it now?

Another mon that can be considered is Genesect, thought it's more controversial. Mons being WAY bulkier and faster here means that it's more easily checked. Yeah, I know I can say that to, say, Darkrai or Blazikeen, but if you consider Genesect's movepool, it's mostly Special based, with very limited physical options. I think this is more controversial though, Mega Metagross is a "better" choice.

Darkrai, Blaziken, Landorus I, Aegislash, all I can say is, NO. Darkrai and Blaziken can run through teams with setup moves and high Speed or Speed Boost, and they still have great coverage options. Landorus I is already pretty fast and with higher Special Attack, it hits too hard. Aegislash, well... you want to face a 120 / 150 / 150 defenses Aegislash? If it were me, I'd say no.
For this I'll just use Niadev's points and some other issues from the council's discussion on the subject, which Funbot and I agreed with.

"So, here are my thoughts on unbanning the Ubers mentioned above.
I could maaaaybe see a Pheromosa suspect - AWak and Mimikyu are a lot better than in OU, and a number of gods check it (certain Arceus formes, Giras, Ho-oh, and Xerneas depending on coverage) along with good priority being easier to come by - stuff like FakeSpeed Smeargle, ESpeed Ray, Shadow Sneak Giras and Mimikyus. However, that's forgetting how it can actually gain moderately decent bulk - inheriting it from Ho-oh makes it quite bulky, either physically or specially, letting it set up QDs much easier, and some of those defense gifts make it harder for those priority mons to actually KO, and that's not forgetting Tapu Lele who can just negate priority altogether. 137 offenses are also still pretty strong, especially when backed by Z moves or potential Life Orb on AoA variants.

I really don't see Lando-I being balanced enough - it's essentially an amped up Nidoking, and is faster, can bop special walls like Ho-oh harder with mixed coverage. The increased sp.atk lets it do more damage to stuff like Giras - for example, with Yveltal/Xerneas Sp.Atk, it has a reasonable chance to 2hko non HP invested Gira-O, and with something like a Rayquaza's sp.atk, there's only a slight chance it won't 2hko. Gira-A would take a tonne from even non-Modest Earth Power anyways (252HP /32 sp.def Gira-A is 2hkod most of the time after rocks by Naive EPower from 150 sp.atk Lando-I). That's not even touching on stuff like Rock Polish, which could rip apart a lot of offense teams not carrying something like Ice Shard Smeargle or Water Shuriken Greninja. RP/Earth Power/Sludge Wave/HP Ice would probably be enough to rip apart the S to A- receiver ranks bar MHera and Skarmory, the former of which gets bopped by Focus Blast from 4 attacks variants, or EPd by Gravity Lando variants, both of which would likely be legitimate options (though the latter would be more niche), and the latter being 2hkod by Sludge Wave from Xern/Yveltal Sp.Atk Lando-I. As for the Gods, the only decent switchins I can find in S and A are Lugia, Ho-oh and Gira-O - I've already touched on Gira-O, while Ho-oh gets dropped by potential Rock Slide, leaving Lugia as the only decent switchin to it, but even then, it's going to be pressured by Stealth Rocks. I don't see much that can reliably stop it, either offensively or defensively.

Darkrai would probably be more tame than Lando-I, but it's still very fast, and Darkrai does still have Nasty Plot and options to have 150 special attack along with a plethora of coverage. NP/DPulse/Sludge would be the only "mandatory" moves, and NP can be switched for Taunt to mess with defensive mons thanks to MSab being gone. It could run Thunder for Ho-oh, but unless I'm missing something there aren't many Pokemon that like dealing with +2 Darkrai. Then you have to take Hypnosis sets into consideration as well, making it just too powerful.

Skymin only needs 3 moves (EPower, Seed Flare, Air Slash) to hugely threaten... basically everything. A Seed Flare Sp.Def drop (friendly reminder there's an 80% chance that happens) is a death sentence for anything slower, as it can either bop it with EPower or flinch it to death with more powerful than usual Air Slashes, not to mention Seed Flare on it's own will do a chunk to anything that doesn't resist it. I don't see this thing being balanced at all and it's uncompetitive: the pokemon.

As for Mega Kangaskhan, it still has 200 HP Seismic Tosses which lets it 2hko any Pokemon with 400 HP or less. While there are bulky mons that receive stuff like 126 HP, or even 150 HP, they often don't appreciate it's coverage or are frail. Giras would be pretty huge stops to it though, until base 150 atk MKanga hits Origin up with the Crunch, which has a significant chance to 2hko after rocks. Gira-A is a counter though, but expecting balance to run Gira-A just to stop this thing giving it a rough time is a bit much. Common defensive cores are simply pressured way too much by this without running specific/specialized gods.


Mega Metagross is still Mega Metagross - it's very bulky, reasonably fast, and powerful with a solid typing and coverage options for almost everything. The only stat I could see it benefitting from are Speed and HP, though, if solely because every other stat is in the realms of an average Uber. It gives most of S through A- a headache from switching into it, though it would be a pretty big stop to Lele, Clefable, and Magearna. The gods that can take a hit from it, which essentially comes down to Multiscale Lugia, are too passive to do too much or area easily worn down in the case of PDon. Most common, physically defensive Pokémon are 2HKOed by Mega Metagross which forces teams, especially stall builds, to run Pokémon that resist both STABs and aren't 2HKOed by Mega Metagross's coverage. After that, however, you have to figure out how exactly you're going to get rid of Mega Metagross, because switching in and tanking hits only works for so long. Imagine if Mega Metagross is being gifted Giratina's HP or Ho-oh/Lugia's SpD, will people be limited in what they can use because of this Pokémon? I think it will severely shift the viability of receivers into what can beat it and what can withstand it. How will Balance and Offense fair against this beast? Well, judging from how something like Deoxys-A worked in the meta, you will have to either build around hard countering it, using it yourself, or simply losing to it.

Blaziken doesn't seem like it'd be balanced at all - while it does have Giras, Arceus formes and Lugia to keep a handle on it, it's coverage and options for Life Orb boosted base 150 in either attacking stat (LO base 150 sp.atk HP ice does the same as Lando-I's with the same Sp.atk, and that 2hkos Gira-O). Gira-A doesn't appreciate Knock Off, which does a lot at +2 (base 150 atk has a chance to OHKO after rocks). Speed Boost lets it tear through Offense outside of FakeSpeed Smeagle and Shuriken Greninja, both of which can fail if PsyTerrain is on the field, and I don't appreciate trying to take a hit from a mon that can OHKO very heavily defensive Gira-O with a non STAB SE attack. Only way I could see it being balanced is if you banned Speed Boost Blaziken, which would be a complex ban and bad due to it not being Smogon policy.

Tl;dr:
Pheromosa: Maybe a suspect, but likelihood of being unbanned is low
Lando-I: I don't see it being balanced enough for a suspect
Darkrai: Unlikely, but probably more likely than Lando-I
Skymin: Nice meme. Incredibly unlikely
MKhan: Probably one of the more likely ones, but probably too much and would probably centralize the meta
MMeta: Probably a bit too much and would probably centralize the meta
Blaziken: I doubt a suspect would happen, it's too broken imo

As for other possibilities, in case someone brings them up:
Highly unlikely, it's godly typing would invalidate a lot of Pokemon as it did in OU - it's pretty bulky and very powerful, and the mechanics of it inheriting stats in defenses or attacking stats would probably be wonky. It getting speed would be pretty dangerous to handle, however, and 150 HP Aegi gives me nightmares.

Also unlikely, it would be a similar case to Lando-I except with much more mixed options and potentially even more power thanks to Download. Don't forget it has Shift Gear, and it gaining speed from a God makes its LO 4 attacks set a nightmare for offense to handle on top of being very dangerous for non stall - it's typing makes it more of a chore to revenge kill with priority and it even has priority of it's own in ESpeed. Stall may be able to handle it, but it first needs to know what kind of set it is which makes the unpredictability factor a prominent reason for keeping it banned from receiving.

I don't see any current Ubers being worthy of being tested down atm bar the 2 I mentioned as a possibility."

E: Semako, Mega Gengar and Mega Alakazam aren't comparable. Mega Gengar has a stronger typing, better STAB coverage that allows it to hit nearly every common defensive Pokémon neutrally, and better utility with Hex, Will-O-Wisp, Thunderbolt, Destiny Bond, Hypnosis, and Perish Song.
 
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I have been comparing Dusclops Eviolite vs Munchlax Eviolite:

Dusclops: 150 base HP Giratina = 441 - 504 HP. 130 base Def/SpD = Max EVs + Nature = 394 + Eviolite = 591 Def / SpD.
Munchlax
: 135 base HP = 411 - 474 HP. 230 base Def = Max + Nature Shuckle = 614 Def + Eviolite = 921 Def. 295 Max + Nature SpD + Eviolite = 442 SpD.

Dusclops > Munchlax on SpD and HP, but not Def:
Dusclops + Nature = 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD = 504 HP, 591 Def, 445 SpD OR 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD = 504 HP, 445 Def, 591 SpD

Munchlax + Nature
= 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD = 474 HP, 745 Def, 442 SpD
-----
Best Defense Possible:
1st Place:
Shuckle Eviolite Munchlax = 474 HP, 921 Def
2nd Place: Shuckle Def Fur Coat Furfrou = 354 HP, 1,228 Def
3rd Place: Shuckle Def Guzzlord = 650 HP, 614 Def
4th Place: Shuckle Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola = 334 HP, 1228 Def
5th Place: Shuckle Def Eviolite Rhydon = 414 HP, 921 Def

Calculations:
1.
1. 252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick
vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Munchlax: 126-150 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
2. 252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick
vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 96-114 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO *[Factor in 6.25% Leftovers healing to get 20.85% - 25.95% damage at end of turn]
3. 252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 186-222 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO *[Factor in 6.25% Leftovers healing to get 22.35% - 27.85% damage at end of turn]
4. 252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 96-114 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO *[Factor in 6.25% Leftovers healing to get 22.45% - 27.85% damage at end of turn]
5. 252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 126-150 (30.4 - 36.2%) -- 47.6% chance to 3HKO

*Keep in mind Persian-Alola, Furfrou, and Guzzlord can hold Leftovers, etc. which can make them even better than Munchlax, and do not fear Knock Off as much. If we take off 6.25% damage from Persian-Alola, Furfrou, and Guzzloard from Leftovers at the end of the turn, then they become the top 3, with Rhydon coming in at a distant 5th place.

*For those wondering about why Persian-Alola is ranked below Guzzlord, even though there is a smaller percentage of a 3HKO, I based it off of the final numbers. It seems strange to me that a lower minimum damage number puts Guzzlord at a higher likelihood of being 3HKOed, but that is what the damage calculations show.
Best Special Defense Possible:
1st Place:
Giratina boosted Assault Vest Shuckle under Sandstorm = 504 HP, 1385 SpD
2nd Place: Shuckle boosted Assault Vest Aurorus under Sandstorm = 450 HP, 1385 SpD
3rd Place: Shuckle boosted Assault Vest Rhyperior under Sandstorm = 434 HP, 1385 SpD
2nd Place: Shuckle boosted Assault Vest Nihilego under Sandstorm = 422 HP, 1385 SpD
5th Place: Shuckle boosted Eviolite Rhydon under Sandstorm = 414 HP, 1385 SpD
*1st / 6th Place: Shuckle boosted Assault Vest Tyranitar under Sandstorm = 404 HP, 1385 SpD

Calculations:
The following is a list of STAB 150 Base Power Moves 4x Effective off 150 base Special Attack (438 maxed with nature) to show how bulky they are; or in Shuckle's case as it doesn't have a 4x weakness, I doubled Hydro Vortex's base power to simply demonstrate the bulk in comparable terms.

1. 252+ SpA Palkia Hydro Vortex (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Shuckle in Sand: 204-242 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
2. 252+ SpA Protean Palkia All-Out Pummeling (150 BP)
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aurorus in Sand: 204-244 (45.3 - 54.2%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO
3. 252+ SpA Palkia Water Spout (150 BP)
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Rhyperior in Sand: 204-244 (47 - 56.2%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO
4. 252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Tectonic Rage (150 BP)
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Nihilego in Sand: 204-244 (48.3 - 57.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
5. 252+ SpA Palkia Water Spout (150 BP)
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon in Sand: 204-244 (49.2 - 58.9%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
6. 252+ SpA Protean Palkia All-Out Pummeling (150 BP)
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 204-244 (50.4 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

*Tyranitar is the only 1 with guaranteed weather conditions. Rhydon can use status moves*
 
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I'm pretty sure that post of mine that iLlama was edited a little, there were some bits in there I didn't put in the original. Though I did forget to mention in the MMeta section just how ridiculously bulky MMeta could become with some Gods' HP stats. Giras in particular make it so bulky it's ridiculous. I was going to repost it here originally but eh, the added bits just don't sound like things I'd type tbh

So, here are my thoughts on unbanning the Ubers mentioned above.

I could maaaaybe see a Pheromosa suspect - AWak and Mimikyu are a lot better than in OU, and a number of gods check it (certain Arceus formes, Giras, Ho-oh, and Xerneas depending on coverage) along with good priority being easier to come by - stuff like FakeSpeed Smeargle, ESpeed Ray, Shadow Sneak Giras and Mimikyus. However, that's forgetting how it can actually gain moderately decent bulk - inheriting it from Ho-oh makes it quite specially bulky, letting it set up QDs much easier, and some of those defense gifts make it harder for those priority mons to actually KO, and that's not forgetting Tapu Lele who can just negate priority altogether. 137 offenses are also still pretty strong, especially when backed by Z moves or potential Life Orb on AoA variants.


I really don't see Lando-I being balanced enough - it's essentially an amped up Nidoking, and is faster, can bop special walls like Ho-oh harder with mixed coverage. The increased sp.atk lets it do more damage to stuff like Giras - for example, with Yveltal/Xerneas Sp.Atk, it has a reasonable chance to 2hko non HP invested Gira-O, and with something like a Rayquaza's sp.atk, there's only a slight chance it won't 2hko. Gira-A would take a tonne from even non-Modest Earth Power anyways (252HP /32 sp.def Gira-A is 2hkod most of the time after rocks by Naive EPower from 150 sp.atk Lando-I). That's not even touching on stuff like Rock Polish, which could rip apart a lot of offense teams not carrying something like Ice Shard Smeargle or Water Shuriken Greninja. RP/Earth Power/Sludge Wave/HP Ice would probably be enough to rip apart the S to A- receiver ranks bar MHera and Skarmory, the former of which gets bopped by Focus Blast from 4 attacks variants, or EPd by Gravity Lando variants, both of which would likely be legitimate options (though the latter would be more niche), and the latter being 2hkod by Sludge Wave from Xern/Yveltal Sp.Atk Lando-I. As for the Gods, the only decent switchins I can find in S and A are Lugia, Ho-oh and Gira-O - I've already touched on Gira-O, while Ho-oh gets dropped by potential Rock Slide, leaving Lugia as the only decent switchin to it, but even then, it's going to be pressured by Stealth Rocks. I don't see much that can reliably stop it, either offensively or defensively.


Darkrai would probably be more tame than Lando-I, but it's still very fast, and Darkrai does still have Nasty Plot and options to have 150 special attack along with a plethora of coverage. NP/DPulse/Sludge would be the only "mandatory" moves, and NP can be switched for Taunt to mess with defensive mons thanks to MSab being gone. It could run Thunder for Ho-oh, but unless I'm missing something there aren't many Pokemon that like dealing with +2 Darkrai.


Skymin only needs 3 moves (EPower, Seed Flare, Air Slash) to hugely threaten... basically everything. A Seed Flare Sp.Def drop (friendly reminder there's an 80% chance that happens) is a death sentence for anything slower, as it can either bop it with EPower or flinch it to death with more powerful than usual Air Slashes, not to mention Seed Flare on it's own will do a chunk to anything that doesn't resist it. I don't see this thing being balanced at all and it's uncompetitive: the pokemon.


As for Mega Kangaskhan, it still has 200 HP Seismic Tosses which lets it 2hko any Pokemon with 400 HP or less. While there are bulky mons that receive stuff like 126 HP, or even 150 HP, they often don't appreciate it's coverage or are frail. Giras would be pretty huge stops to it though, until base 150 atk MKanga hits Origin up with the Crunch, which has a significant chance to 2hko after rocks. Gira-A is a counter though, but expecting balance to run Gira-A just to stop this thing giving it a rough time is a bit much.


EDIT: Added more thoughts about MMeta
Mega Metagross is still Mega Metagross - it's very bulky, reasonably fast, and powerful with a solid typing and coverage options for almost everything. The only stat I could see it benefitting from are Speed and HP, though, if solely because every other stat is in the realms of an average Uber. It gives most of S through A- a headache from switching into it, though it would be a pretty big stop to Lele. The gods that can take a hit from it, which essentially comes down to Multiscale Lugia, are too passive to do too much or area easily worn down in the case of PDon.


Blaziken doesn't seem like it'd be balanced at all - while it does have Giras, Arceus formes and Lugia to keep a handle on it, it's coverage and options for Life Orb boosted base 150 in either attacking stat (LO base 150 sp.atk HP ice does the same as Lando-I's with the same Sp.atk, and that 2hkos Gira-O). Gira-A doesn't appreciate Knock Off, which does a lot at +2 (base 150 atk has a chance to OHKO after rocks). Speed Boost lets it tear through Offense outside of FakeSpeed Smeagle and Shuriken Greninja, both of which can fail if PsyTerrain is on the field, and I don't appreciate trying to take a hit from a mon that can OHKO very heavily defensive Gira-O with a non STAB SE attack. Only way I could see it being balanced is if you banned Speed Boost Blaziken, which would be a complex ban and bad due to it not being Smogon policy.


Tl;dr:
Pheromosa: Maybe a suspect, but likelihood of being unbanned is low
Lando-I: I don't see it being balanced enough for a suspect
Darkrai: Unlikely, but probably more likely than Lando-I
Skymin: Nice meme. Incredibly unlikely
MKhan: Probably one of the more likely ones, but probably too much and would probably centralise the meta
MMeta: Probably a bit too much
Blaziken: I doubt a suspect would happen, it's too broken imo

As for other possibilities, in case someone brings them up:

Highly unlikely, it's godly typing would invalidate a lot of Pokemon as it did in OU - it's pretty bulky and very powerful, and the mechanics of it inheriting stats in defenses or attacking stats would probably be wonky. It getting speed would be pretty dangerous to handle, however, and 150 HP Aegi gives me nightmares.


Also unlikely, it would be a similar case to Lando-I except with much more mixed options and potentially even more power thanks to Download. Even has Rock Polish, and it gaining speed from a God makes it's LO 4 attacks set a nightmare for offense to handle on top of being very dangerous for non stall - it's typing makes it more of a chore to revenge kill with priority and it even has priorty of it's own in ESpeed.


Overall, I don't see any current Ubers being worthy of being tested down atm bar the 3 I mentioned as a possibility.[/quote]


I'll also just repost my thoughts on Gengarite being unbanned as a god:

It only gives 2 relatively unimpressive stats (base 130 sp.a and 110 spe are ok I guess, but Deo-N gives better raw stats) of particular note, so it hasn't got much real potential for overly dangerous sweepers due to these low stats for it to provide trapping support for to make broken. Basically the stats offset it to the point where I think it's not broken. If it gave it's Mega stats, though, then it'd be pretty problematic (170 spa and 130 speed hooooly), but that's essentially theorymonning at this point. As it stands though, I think it's fine.


Cool that this is playable for 2 months in a row, though.
 
So, with the nominations coming and GG getting a good amount of nominations, I made an analysis of Kyurem-W. Just because I felt like it.

Overview

Kyurem-W is an underrated god in Godly Gift. While it may not offer the Attack and Speed of Deoxys, it compensated by offering much better bulk - 125 / 90 / 100 defences aren't bad by any means, meaning you won't have to cripple 2 of your team with horrible stats anywhere. Unlike the alien, Kyurem-W doesn't restrict you to HO, letting you run a variety of offensive builds.

Kyurem-W itself is no slouch either. 170 base Special Attack coupled with high powered STABs and perfect coverage make it very hard to switch into, and the aforementioned bulk coupled with reliable recovery means you don't have to treat it too delicately. It has the strongest Draco Meteor in the game, and Ice STAB is very threatening. However, base 95 Speed is average at best, and while Ice is brilliant offensive typing, defensively it's the worst in the game. It gives Kyurem-W nasty Fighting and Steel weaknesses, and a weakness to all entry hazards.

Wallbreaker

Kyurem @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Flare
- Focus Blast / Earth Power / Roost

Pretty straightforward set - click Draco Meteor and watch stuff die. If your opponent has Steel or Fairy types left, Ice Beam is a safer move to throw around. Fusion Flare OHKOes Scizor, Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Focus Blast OHKOes Tyranitar and 2HKOes Heatran. Earth Power OHKOes Heatran, and ignores Levitate thanks to Turboblaze. Roost can be used with a Life Orb to keep Kyurem-W healthy. EVs maximise Speed and power - Timid is usually better, as Modest doesn't get any major KOs. As for item, you can use Specs for more power or Life Orb for flexibility.

Team Composition

Kyurem-W itself should be placed in the Defence slot, as that is its lowest stat. The HP slot should be given to a support Pokemon who appreciates the bulk: Shuckle can set Sticky Web, and is nigh indestructable with 125 / 230 / 230 defences. Skarmory also greatly appreciates the extra bulk, and can remove the hazards Kyurem-W despises with Defog. Tapu Fini is another good choice. The Attack slot should be given to either a revenge killer or boosting physical attacker, as 120 is high but not exceptional. Priority Smeargle and Dragon Dance Zygarde are good options. There are a number of Pokemon who love to receive Kyurem-W's epic Special Attack: Tapu Koko is very fast and has Electric Terrain boosted STABs; Swellow has STAB Boomburst with Scrappy; Autotomize Celesteela is very bulky and Beast Boost makes it ridiculously strong after a KO or 2. The Special Defence slot can go to a number of Pokemon: Assault Vest Tangrowth, Kartana and Buzzwole all appreciate the boost. The Speed slot shoudl be given to something that can boost its Speed - Flame Charge Marowak-A or Rock Polish Mega Camerupt are solid choices.

Other Options

Kyruem-W can run a Choice Scarf set, but it much prefers the power of Specs and Life Orb, and being weak to all hazards makes it a poor scarfer. If you can provide Hail support, you could run Blizzard in place of Ice Beam. Icium Z Ice Burn is amazingly poweful, but Kyurem-W prefers the constant power of Life Orb or Specs to a one time nuke. Dragonium Z has similar problems.

Checks and Counters

Tapu Fini - With a HP boost, Tapu Fini can tank all of Kyurem-W's attack and wear it down with Nature's Madness.

Revenge killers - While almost nothing can switch into Kyurem-W, most Pokemon that are faster and pack a super effective move can bring it down. Terrakion, Tapu Koko (with a Special Attack boost) Keldeo

Entry Hazards - Stealth Rock and Spikes will quickly wear Kyurem-W down.
 
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This metagame might see new variations once UsUM is released, as they are bringing back all Legendaries, which likely means they may see updates to their movesets, in addition to new Ultra Beasts and new forms for the cover Legendaries (I.e. new stats for the purposes of this metagame), not to mention Lycanrok.

I think unlike most OMs; where a new form or Pokémon only impacts that one slot in your team, it will be interesting the see how entirely new stat distributions reshape how Solgaleo, etc. will frame entire teams both in Pokémon decisions and team placements.

EDIT: Let’s vote for this in the OMoTM!
 
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