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Grimaniel

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Trinitrotoluene, Sep 22, 2012.

  1. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene what level does ninjask learn choice scarf?
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,188
    [​IMG]
    Description changes will be boldfaced, and Pokemon moveset changes will be underlined.
    [​IMG]
    Weather is just as dominant as it has ever been. However, with time comes a maturing of the metagame. It was only a few months ago that rain teams were all the craze, with some paranoid users making the assumption that the then-new Therian formes and rain were broken. Now, there's been an influx of sun, sand, and hail teams, evolved to combat the previously dominant rain teams scattered across OU. With the release of Genesect, teams of all archetypes have obtained a new, powerful member for use in battle across OU. This has led to the implicit assumption that at least one form of weather control has to be present on an OU team if success is desired.

    All of the factors stated above may cause the initial (and wrongly thought assumption) that weatherless teams are inferior to weather-based teams. However, a deeper glance reveals that weatherless teams can compete against and emerge triumphant against their weather-bound counterparts. For one, weatherless teams aren't forced to partake in the painstaking weather wars that are ever-present in OU. Another thought that must be taken into consideration is that weatherless teams often have greater freedom when it comes to team member selection. Many weather-bound sweepers share common counters, making it easier to break past them with the appropriate offensive pressure. Those thoughts are what initially pushed me to make a weatherless team. After coming up with a few ideas and testing them, this team was established. The last I checked (at least a week ago), I made it to at least #51, if not higher, on Showdown!'s OU ladder under the alt Trinitrotoluene using this team. Of course, ladder ratings are not needed to prove a team's viability, but I felt like showing that this team has brought me success in its current state.

    Yes, this team was given another Bleach-based name. This time, the team's name comes from the name of one of the two revealed Quincy: Vollständig. The Quincy: Vollständig, the seeming Quincy equivalent to an Arrancar's Resurrećion and a Shinigami's Bankai, grants the wielder an extreme speed and power boost. I've also decided to go with a more simplistic approach to formatting this RMT, so if you expected something fancy, a la Girl in the Fire or Deep Sea of Mare, then I'm sorry to disappoint you. You could also call this team Team Jirachee (suggested by Jirachi him/herself), because that was the working title for this RMT, only being shelved because Grimaniel sounded better.
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    The task of creating a weatherless team without turning to stall-based tactics might seem daunting, if not impossible at first. This is due to the sheer amount of sweepers that are borderline broken with a boost from their favorable weather condition. However, a vulnerability almost every weather sweeper shares is a dislike of entry hazards. With that in mind, my first choice for a team member was Deoxys-D, who had access to Stealth Rock, Spikes, and a very respectable base 90 Speed. While the rise of Genesect didn't help it much, it did not reduce Deoxys-D's viability. However, by itself, Deoxys-D cannot win battles. It must rely on teammates to force switches, maximizing the value of its hazards.

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    Dragonite is often touted as OU's best dragon, thanks to its access to Multiscale, which bolsters Dragonite's already respectable bulk, and a very impressive movepool, which includes ExtremeSpeed, a move with +2 priority, and the very powerful Outrage. Thanks to its impressive resistances, bulk, and access to Multiscale, it can serve as a stop to many rain and sun teams. At that point in time, I decided that I wanted to use a Dragon Dance set, reasoning that hazard support would enable it to break through its counters. At that point, Dragonite could not sweep through teams on its own, thanks to the overwhelming amount of Pokemon that could stop its sweep cold. Teammates would be needed to alleviate that vulnerability.

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    Gyarados and Dragonite are very similar Pokemon. They share common checks and counters, leading to the idea that one could be used to overwhelm their commom checks and counters, so the other can launch a game-breaking sweep. While both had access to Dragon Dance and an unfortunate weakness to Stealth Rock, they had several traits that distinguished one from the other. Gyarados had great Water STAB and the ability to stall a turn with Bounce, while Dragonite's features have been discussed in brief previously. I still wanted a way to ease my time against Skarmory and Gliscor, two of the most prominent physical walls, so I knew that I needed a special sweeper.

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    Magnezone was a great addition to the team. Instead of using the SubCharge set, I opted to use a set that took advantage of Magnezone's superior bulk and power: the Choice Specs set. This gave the powerful magnet the ability to deal with Dragonite's and Gyarados's most feared nemeses: Skarmory and Ferrothorn. In terms of resistances, Magnezone also synchronized perfectly with Dragonite and Gyarados. It resisted their weaknesses, and they resisted its weaknesses.

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    At that point, the team needed a revenge killer, and there was one that the team had in mind: Genesect. Not only could it revenge kill many notable threats, such as Haxorus, Latios, and opposing Gyarados, it could also grant teammates a free switch-in, thanks to its access to U-turn and a notable resistance to Dragon- and Ice-type attacks. That resistance to Ice-type attacks also took some pressure off of Magnezone to continually switch into such attacks.

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    The team was looking good, but the problem of Rapid Spinners needed to be solved. Gengar and Chandelure were considered for this team slot, but Gengar won out in the end due to its higher Speed and access to Focus Blast, granting it perfect neutral coverage in only two moves. Gengar also had an immunity to Ground-type attacks, something that Chandelure lacked. Now, if Chandelure had Shadow Tag, then that's another story.

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    Upon testing, Gyarados ended up being dead weight, compounding a Stealth Rock weakness and not really giving much back to the team besides problems with Starmie and Thundurus-T. Since Stealth Rock eliminated Dragonite's Multiscale, a Rapid Spinner was needed. Starmie seemed to be the best choice for the job, thanks to its incredible Speed and acceptable offenses. After an adjustment of sets, the team was completed.
    [​IMG]
    PHP:
    Deoxys-Defense Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Pressure
    Shiny
    Yes
    EVs
    252 HP 4 SDef 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs
    0 Atk
    Stealth Rock
    Spikes
    Taunt
    Magic Coat

    Dragonite 
    (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Multiscale
    Shiny
    Yes
    EVs
    4 Def 252 Atk 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    Outrage
    Earthquake
    Fire Punch
    ExtremeSpeed

    Gengar 
    (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    Shiny
    Yes
    EVs
    252 SAtk 252 Spd 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    Shadow Ball
    Focus Blast
    Hidden Power [Ice]
    Destiny Bond

    Magnezone 
    Choice Specs
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    Shiny
    Yes
    EVs
    148 HP 252 SAtk 108 Spd
    Modest Nature
    Volt Switch
    Hidden Power [Fire]
    Thunderbolt
    Flash Cannon

    Starmie 
    Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Shiny
    Yes
    EVs
    252 Spd 252 SAtk 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    IVs
    0 Atk
    Hydro Pump
    Psyshock
    Thunderbolt
    Rapid Spin

    Genesect 
    Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    Shiny
    Yes
    EVs
    64 Atk 252 SAtk 192 Spd
    Hasty Nature
    U-turn
    Flamethrower
    Ice Beam
    Thunderbolt
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    Deoxys [Defense] @ Rocky Helmet | Pressure
    Timid | 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | 0 Atk
    Stealth Rock | Spikes | Taunt | Magic Coat


    [BOX]Any good team should have access to entry hazards. They play such a crucial role in nearly every battle that this team goes through, simply because they force many Pokemon into the KO range for the rest of this team. While there are many hazard setters in OU, they all have various advantages and disadvantages. The two hazard setters that I had the hardest choice choosing between were Forretress and Deoxys-D. Both had access to Stealth Rock and Spikes, but the former had access to Volt Switch while the latter had access to Taunt and Magic Coat, alongside a great base Speed and respectable bulk, even when uninvested. Deoxys-D ended up winning me over due to its combination of speed, bulk, and access to Stealth Rock and Spikes. When it came to choosing a set, the fast hazard layer was the way to go for an offensive team such as this one.

    Stealth Rock is the most important hazard and with few exceptions, is the first move Deoxys-D makes when it's on the field. Spikes is the other hazard that Deoxys-D sets. With Deoxys-D's bulk, I'll usually get at least one layer up against the most offensive teams, and two layers up against a stall team. Taunt is used on the occasion a Forretress or Ferrothorn is faced down on Turn 1. Magic Coat is used when a Prankster, opposing Deoxys-D, or stall team is faced. While this Deoxys-D may seem like Taunt bait, it does not need to worry, since the Taunters are easily predicted and shut down with Magic Coat. The EVs work fantastically when Deoxys-D is placed in the lead position, and the IVs minimize confusion damage. The Rocky Helmet was chosen over Leftovers or Mental Herb since it allows Deoxys-D to punish weak Pokemon, such as Specially Defensive Jirachi and Forretress, once they've been Taunted.

    Deoxys-D is this team's designated lead unless an Espeon or Xatu is seen in Team Preview. Those two Pokemon are usually seen without a Spinner to back them up, so Gengar is sent Turn 1 to sic the two so Deoxys-D can set hazards. As I mentioned in the previous paragraph, Deoxys-D's first move made, with few exceptions, is the setting of Stealth Rock. Afterwards, Spikes are laid until Deoxys-D is KO'd by the opponent. If a spinner is switched into Deoxys-D, Gengar is brought in to eliminate them. The only lead that can prevent Deoxys-D from laying more than one layer of Spikes is the combo of Genesect and another Pokemon faster than Deoxys-D. If an opposing Deoxys-D or Prankster Pokemon is faced, Magic Coat is used to catch them off-guard. When facing set-up sweepers, Taunt is used so the opponent cannot obtain more than one boost. Once weakened, Deoxys-D is used as death fodder so another teammate (usually Genesect) can obtain a free switch. Deoxys-D, while not a killer on its own, is an invaluable member of the team, and one that I will not replace (until Custap Berry is released).[/BOX]
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    Dragonite (F) @ Choice Band | Multiscale
    Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Outrage | Earthquake | Fire Punch | ExtremeSpeed


    [BOX]Dragonite is ridiculously powerful, scoring many KOs with Outrage, even before hazard damage has taken its toll. After hazards have been set, the number of Pokemon that can switch in safely against Dragonite's assault boils down to Skarmory and Gliscor, both of which are eliminated rather effectively by Starmie and other team members. Dragonite has several sets that can be used rather effectively. Its most iconic set, the Dragon Dance set, has been used on this team before. While it didn't exactly disappoint me, it didn't satisfy the team's need for a physical attacker with incredible power out of the box. I then decided to use the Choice Band set, and the immediate power this set possesses has astounded me. While I could have used Choice Band Haxorus, who possesses more power and speed, over Dragonite, Dragonite's possession of Multiscale has made battling opposing sun and rain teams much less of a hassle.

    Outrage is Dragonite's main STAB, dealing a heavy amount of damage to most Pokemon, even before hazard damage has taken its toll. It 2HKOes many important members of stall teams, such as Jellicent and Heatran (factoring its resistance in) after Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes damage, and OHKOes almost every Pokemon that doesn't lack a resistance or has a defensive EV spread. Earthquake is a fun little move that throws so many Jirachi and Heatran off their proverbial pedestals as safe switch-ins. Fire Punch helps Dragonite beat apart Steel-types immune or neutral to Earthquake. However, it sees relatively small use since Magnezone is the main Steel killer. ExtremeSpeed helps Dragonite pick weakened teams apart and revenge kill boosted, but weakened threats. The EVs maximize power and speed, with the last 4 being tossed into Defense, for lack of a better place. As mentioned earlier, I am considering using Haxorus over Dragonite.

    Due to the massive amount of power this set possesses, Dragonite is this team's designated wallbreaker. After hazards have been laid by Deoxys-D, Dragonite is brought in by Genesect's U-turn on a Pokemon that can be forced out with the threat of a powerful Outrage. From there, the members of an opponent's team will determine the move Dragonite opens with. If a sun team is being faced, Dragonite will usually open with Outrage, hopefully netting a KO. However, should I observe that my opponent's team has a Claydol, Donphan, or Forretress, I will open with Fire Punch, hopefully hitting them for a decent amount of damage on the switch. As the game progresses, Dragonite will start to spam Outrage, letting it live up to its wall-breaking reputation. ExtremeSpeed will also see some use to snipe weakened threats that could be problematic if they're allowed to live. Once Dragonite has been weakened sufficiently, it will be used as death fodder to grant another team member a free switch-in. In conclusion, Dragonite is an important team member. If you're going to suggest a replacement to Dragonite, it should be just as, if not more powerful.[/BOX]
    [​IMG]
    Gengar (F) @ Choice Scarf | Levitate
    Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe | 2 Atk / 30 Def
    Shadow Ball | Focus Blast | Hidden Power Ice | Destiny Bond


    [BOX]Gengar is the obligatory spinblocker of the team. It easily is the most offensively inclined among all the Ghosts in OU, besides Chandelure. The two reasons Gengar made the cut instead of Chandelure are its access to Focus Blast and a higher Speed stat. When it came to set choices, I initially went with the SubSplit set, to maximize the power Gengar can get. However, there was one large problem: it could not spinblock Starmie! Its attempts to do so would usually end up with Gengar falling to a boosted Hydro Pump or Psyshock. To solve that problem, I ended up using this relic from the Diamond / Pearl era. With Scizor's presence on a slight decline thanks to Genesect, it's safer to use this set than it was before. With this set, Gengar usually only has to spinblock once per game, due to the sheer surprise factor this set possesses. Even if the opponent realizes that this is a Scarf Gengar, it's still effective as an emergency revenge killer and momentum setter.

    Shadow Ball is Gengar's main STAB move. It packs respectable power after a STAB boost and is the main move spammed against offensive teams. In the end-game, it packs sufficient power to sweep through a weakened offensive team. Focus Blast is Gengar's main coverage move, hitting everything that Shadow Ball cannot hit for at least neutral damage. This move allows Gengar to deal with Scarf Terrakion and Stoutland extremely efficiently, reducing their threat level substantially. Hidden Power Ice allows Gengar to revenge kill Dragons and Therians that Genesect cannot revenge kill. It's also a great way to catch opposing Scarf Landorus off-guard. Destiny Bond, at best, is a filler move, and is one that I want to replace. Despite Destiny Bond's status as a filler move, it has helped against set-up sweepers that the rest of the team does not like dealing with, and is currently the best option for the last slot. Thunderbolt has been tested, but its lack of power disappointed me. Trick, while effectively crippling at least one member of a stall team, has backfired on me more than once, substantially reducing its appeal. The EVs maximize speed and power, and the IVs lower confusion damage.

    Gengar's main reason for being on the team in the first place is to spinblock, protecting my hazards and maintaining a constant source of damage. As I mentioned earlier, if I use this set correctly, Gengar only has to spinblock once per game. Since the most common spinner in OU is Starmie, Gengar can easily use the element of surprise and get a surprise kill, eliminating Starmie and maintaining my hazards, all in one fell swoop. Once the obligatory spinner(s) are gone, Gengar can then transition to the role of secondary revenge killer. While Genesect is charged with the main job of revenge killing, Gengar is there to cover what it cannot, such as Scarf Landorus, Thundurus-T, Salamence, and Terrakion. All things said, Gengar is an extremely important member of the team that I cannot afford to let go.[/BOX][​IMG]
    Magnezone @ Choice Specs | Magnet Pull
    Modest | 148 HP / 252 SpA / 108 Spe | 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
    Volt Switch | Hidden Power Fire | Thunderbolt | Flash Cannon


    [BOX]Magnezone is Dragonite's wall-breaking partner in crime. While Dragonite swiftly eliminates the special walls, Magnezone breaks the physical walls impeding its rampage. The only threat that the two cannot face down efficiently is Gliscor, who is handled excellently by the rest of the team. Choosing a set turned out to be a very difficult issue. While I particularly liked the SubCharge set, it gave opposing Ferrothorn a chance to set up hazards on Magnezone. It also lacked immediate power, something which this team needed desperately. While the Scarf set held some appeal, that role was generally done better by Magneton, who was faster and almost as strong. That left the Specs set, which was powerful enough to meet my demands, and bulky enough to deal with the bulky Steels. I loved how it could beat Ferrothorn with ease, regardless of the weather.

    Volt Switch, while not the strongest attack in Magnezone's arsenal, is the attack Magnezone will be spamming early on in the game. This eases the acquisition of more favorable match-ups for the team while effectively giving Magnezone the ability to deal "free" damage. Hidden Power Fire is Magnezone's main tool used in the dismantling of opposing Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Genesect. It's also quite useful for landing massive amounts of damage on Steels outside of the rain. Thunderbolt is Magnezone's other STAB move, capable of OHKOing Skarmory and Scizor (after SR damage for the latter) in the rain, amd 2HKOing many more Pokemon. Flash Cannon is alost never used, and was thrown on as an afterthought. It helps nail the Mamoswine ad Dragons that love switching in on it. The EVs maximize power while giving Magnezone enough speed to beat max speed Wobbuffet, with the rest being placed in HP to grant Magnezone some bulk. The given IVs minimize confusion damage while giving Magnezone a base 70 Hidden Power Fire.

    Magnezone is brought in on Steel-types that Dragonite and Gengar lure in like crazy. With its bulk, it doesn't mind taking Genesect's coverage, Scizor's Bullet Punch, or Skarmory's Brave Bird. From there, it can OHKO the three with either HP Fire or Thunderbolt. However, it can only switch into the first two after they've killed off or weakened Once opposing Steels have been eliminated, Magnezone is used as part of a VoltTurning core with Genesect to weaken the opponent and grant other team members free switch-ins. If I need to, I will use Magnezone as death fodder so another teammate can get a free switch. All in all, Magnezone is an important member of my team, and one that I am reluctant on replacing.[/BOX]
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    Starmie @ Leftovers | Natural Cure
    Timid | 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | 0 Atk
    Hydro Pump | Psyshock | Thunderbolt | Rapid Spin


    [BOX]This team utilizes a VoltTurning core and Dragonite, so hazards are obviously going to be a problem. I had several choices for a spinner, such as Forretress, Donphan, Tentacruel, and Starmie. Starmie had a compromise between power, speed, and bulk, making it the most optimal choice at the moment. Starmie also gets spectacular coverage and a resistance to Breloom's Mach Punch, allowing it to serve as an emergency check to Breloom. Its auspicious typing also allows it to play the part of the nuisance to rain teams. When it came down to choosing a set, I wanted the largest offensive presence that Starmie could muster, hence the set seen above.

    Hydro Pump is Starmie's main STAB, bringing the pain to the opponent under the rain. Even without the rain and Life Orb, Hydro Pump is still a strong move, being able to 2HKO Sunny Day Ninetales and Techniloom. Psyshock is Starmie's other STAB, useful in getting surprise kills on Keldeo, Virizion, and the aforementioned Techniloom. Psyshock is also useful for dealing nasty surprise blows to Amoonguss and Gengar, who usually do not expect it. Thunderbolt helps Starmie deal with Politoed and Jellicent more efficiently, reducing the pressure on Magnezone to contain Politoed. Rapid Spin is Starmie's main lot for being on the team, eliminating the presence of hazards that are oh-so-detrimental to the rest of the team. The given EVs maximize its speed and power, and the IVs minimize confusion damage. I've contemplated using Ice Beam over Thunderbolt to hit dragons that switch into it, but I haven't tested that yet.

    Starmie is an interesting case of usage through a battle. For some battles, it's complete dead weight, while for others, it's a critical piece needed to advance towards victory. Its main goal throughout battle is to get hazards off the field, extending the lifetime of the rest of the team. Once hazards are gone, Starmie can play the role of the late-game cleaner, tearing through weakened teams with its powerful STAB and Thunderbolt. Against stall teams, Starmie is used to break the common core of Amoonguss, Heatran, and Slowbro, reducing the difficulty found in facing them off. I don't really have much else to say about Starmie other than it works. I'm considering trying out Cloyster as a spinner for the offensive pressure it brings, but I'm not sure about it. Help here would be appreciated.[/BOX]
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    Genesect @ Choice Scarf | Download
    Hasty | 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
    U-turn | Flamethrower | Ice Beam | Thunderbolt


    [BOX]Genesect is pretty cool. With a Choice Scarf and its powerful coverage moves, it keeps the dragons, Weavile, Landorus, Starmie, and Therians in check rather effectively. It's also a great momentum grabber, thanks to its access to a Download-boosted U-turn and critical resistances to Dragon- and Ice-type moves. There aren't that many options for Genesect when it comes to selecting a moveset. You could go in a sweeping direction with Rock Polish / an all-out attacking set, or go with a Choice set. Choice Band and Specs turn Genesect into a powerful wall-breaker, but this team needed a good revenge killer, so the Scarf set was chosen. Everything that Genesect cannot beat (Heatran, Blissey) is covered by another member of the team, and in turn, Genesect covers Pokemon that the rest of the team would rather not face. I'm considering using Mamoswine over Genesect, but that's just a back-thought.

    U-turn is Genesect's main STAB and means of granting teammates favorable match-ups.*After a Download and STAB boost, it can do a surprisingly large amount of damage, even to those that resist the move. U-turn also helps Genesect escape from the clutches of Magnezone. Flamethrower incinerates Abomasnow, Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress. However, it doesn't see too much use, considering Magnezone is the primary Steel killer on the team. Ice Beam is used to keep dragons and Therians down, and is great for punishing those MoxieMence that opt to use an Attack-boosting nature instead of a Speed-boosting nature. Thunderbolt is great for smacking Skarmory (in the rain) and Politoed around with ease. I have contemplated the use of Explosion over one of the coverage moves, but doing so has caused me times of regret when I could have used that option. I've also contemplated the use of Mamoswine over Genesect. It checks similar threats, and it also gives the team another source of priority, something which I think would be appreciated. The EVs were tailored by Funkasaurus, and they perform well enough that I haven't bothered myself to question them.

    As I mentioned earlier on, Genesect is first and foremost a revenge killer. It keeps annoying Pokemon, such as the Lati twins, in check, and provides favorable match-ups for the rest of the team. As a result, it plays a rather large part in every battle conducted. In the early game, after hazards have been laid, it's mainly used as a momentum grabber thanks to its access to U-turn. This allows Genesect to root out potential counters and favorable match-ups more easily. However, if an Espeon is seen in Team Preview, Genesect is sent out to erase its presence and create pressure that will allow Deoxys-D to set up its hazards. In the mid-game, Genesect's revenge killing capabilities are fully manifested, and its coverage moves are used at full blast. At the end, Genesect can be used as a forced win condition thanks to its Download-boosted offenses. All things considered, Genesect is a cool team member, but I think that its slot could be served better with a different Pokemon.[/BOX]
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    Before I say anything else, thanks for reading through this RMT. I hope this shows that weatherless teams don't have to restrict themselves to the same sets, and that creative sets can be used to devastating effect. I also hope that this RMT shows that weather control isn't needed to succeed in OU. I look forward to reading your suggestions and comments for this team. Have a nice day.I have not posted a sand RMT in some time...
  2. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    Hey, this team looks cool!


    Firstly, however, I want to fix that Deo-D. Rocky Helmet is near useless if Deo-D isn't abusing Recover, and I would replace it for Mental Herb. The item is underrated on Deo-D, and it allows it to be cured of any Encore / Taunt status, which are common answers to its hazard stacking. With this new item, you can free your Magic Bounce slot for any coverage move, I recommend either Low Kick or Night Shade, Low Kick for Tyranitars and Night Shade for stall teams.

    EDIT: Note that Deo-D can win taunt war vs. other Deo-D's

    Now, on to Choice Scarf Gengar. IDK, but I don't really think the set is that great for this team. You want to block spinners, and weaker hits on Jellicent / Tentacreul aren't that great and then you got Foretress, which with Gyro Ball laughs and spins on you. I would use SubSplit with a Life Orb. The extra power boost makes a difference and you can easily split with Tenta. SubDisable, although a lesser choice, work for disabling scald on Tenta or Spikes on Foretress. With Scarf Genesect, the additional speed won't be missed too much. If you feel you miss a scarf, you can add a scarf on Mag, which would also gain the KO on Gene.

    I hope this helps your team, GL!
  3. swwaaggeerr

    swwaaggeerr

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    49
    1.Without dragonite chansey pretty much laughs at ur team, mite wana work on tht mayb replace starmie wit hitmontop
    2.choice scarf gengar mite seem good at first but it really only gets the jump on starmie. tentacruel laughs at ur set and u hav to rely on consecutive focus blasts for foretress as said above. i recommend choice specs jellicent which catches mor pepul off guard, u can stil take starmie if u havnt been weakened to much and forretress isnt a problem. run 252sp att modest with hydro pump water spout shadow ball and ice beam. This works as a great counter to water teams as a plus
    3.consider ice beam over psyshock on starmie im pretty sure it has more utility. Also a life orb is a bit mor useful on offensive starmie to guranteed 2hkos on bulkier pokemon lik jellicent
  4. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene what level does ninjask learn choice scarf?
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,188
    First off, thanks for the rate. I'll address your three points individually.

    @1. Chansey has to contend with entry hazard damage, forcing it to recover more often. It's a slight problem, but thankfully, it's not too common.

    @2. Specs Jellicent actually looks pretty cool. That's another thing I'll have to test some time.

    @3. I prefer Psyshock over Ice Beam due to the prevalence of Amoonguss and Breloom in OU. Also, since my Starmie lacks Recover, I'd rather have it hold Leftovers instead of Life Orb. I'll test Life Orb out, but I don't expect too much from it. As a side note, I plan on testing out Cloyster over Starmie to help against Chansey.

    Thanks for the rate Shurtugal! I'll try out Mental Herb on Deo-D for sure! Regarding your segment on ScarfGar, its frailty is critical in dealing with the aforementioned threats. Gengar can KO Starmie, a pest to this team, on its own, which is all I really need it for. Tentacruel can be beaten by Dragonite, and Forretress, once it kills Gengar, is stuck against Magnezone. If it has a Shed Shell, it'll be forced to either switch or die against it, and if it lacks Shed Shell, then it simply cannot spin against Magnezone. ScarfGar also helps against Scarf Terrakion, which poses as a problem for the rest of the team. Once again, thanks for the rate.
  5. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,022
    Hi,

    Once again, magnificent team! I really really enjoyed reading the whole thing and I am not surprised at all by just how solid this team is. I've seen your success on the ladder, which accurately proves the quality of this team. Really really nice job!

    It was hard to find a really weakness in your team, but one that I noticed was Lead Volcorona. It outspeeds your lead, Deoxys-D, and can nab 1 quiver dance before it's taunted- but that's all it needs to KO your entire team with Fiery Dance/HP Rock/Bug Buzz. Dnite is currently your only answer with Espeed, but that's easily punishable by sending in a ghost type. Gengar can hit hard with Shadow Ball, but it deosn't do enough once Volc is at +1. You could also DBond, but if Volc doesn't attack you lose. To help with this, there are some minor changes I think you should make.

    To begin with, I think Gengar really needs Trick instead of Destiny Bond. Yes, you catch opponents off guard with DBond, but because not only you are choiced but 2/3 of your team is choiced as well, it's not the best move to be locked into. A wrong-time Destiny Bond could easily give your opponent the time to get higher boosts and defeat you. Your team is already a bit weak to set up sweepers like Volcorona, so Tricking them a scarf will help you stop them. Tricking a scarf to incoming special walls like Tyranitar, Blissey, and Chamsey will also really help your team, as I can see a bit of trouble really muscling past those huge walls. Trick also destroys bulky sweepers like Conkeldurr and Reuniclus who run in Trick Room and all of that annoying stuff. Remember though, Trick should only be used after spinblockers have been taken out.

    This one I'm not as sure with, but I urge you to try Thunder Wave on Deoxys instead of SR / Magic Coat. Thunder Wave prevents faster set up sweepers who only need one boost, as well as boosted sweepers that you are 'revenging'. Ditching SR/Magic Coat may seem crazy, but because most teams have SR themselves, you'l just need to MB in their face and have your rocks set up for you. Or, because you already have Taunt to stop hazards and set up, you could ditch MB. You'd be a bit weaker to Sableye, but it's uncommon and also a perfect switch in for Gengar to attempt a sweep. Twave helps Magnezone and Dragonite get over their 'lack of speed' as well.

    Overall, really nice team. Nice job! Good luck!
  6. RitikGupta

    RitikGupta

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    a ho team must post and haxorus > dragonite you will lose a ES but you can attack with much more higher power and with haxorus you don't have to care about rapid spinning rocks and on starmie Thunder wave > thunderbolt this way you can paralyze sub + cm jirachi and volcarona which is threat when dragonite is gone on deoxys -d give it red card > rocky helmet this way you can stop sheer force rock polish landorus which can sweep your team after a rock polish or substitute awesome ho team good luck
  7. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene what level does ninjask learn choice scarf?
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    First off, thanks for the rate Electrolyte! Your suggestion regarding Trick over Destiny Bond is pretty cool, actually. I'll retest that. However, I don't like the replacement of either Stealth Rock or Magic Coat with Thunder Wave. Quite frankly, I like both of those moves.

    Thanks for the rate. I'll try out Red Card on Deoxys-D and TWave on Starmie.
  8. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    Well, two things. And they really depend on each other.

    So, first off, I noticed you mentioned you don't like Genesect. This is a good observation! You actually kinda need him, but you could use a different Special scarfer if you want. Specifically, you could use a boosting Volcarona. But this would only be if you kept Gengar as your special sweeper, which I highly don't recommend. In fact, I would recommend keeping Genesect, but perhaps switching U-turn out for Bug Buzz and investing the rest of those Attack EV's into Special Attack. But that's just me.

    Gengar is an interesting Special Scarfer to say the least. I would actually recommend a SubDisable (Disuble) set. This is mainly because you have four scarfers/banders/specs'ers. That could get you into some serious trouble down the road, although you seem to be using this team well (I think).

    Volcarona Set:

    [​IMG]
    Volcarona (Timid) @ Leftovers
    4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Spd
    ~Quiver Dance
    ~Fiery Dance
    ~Hidden Power Ground/Rock (only use Rock if other Volcarona give you problems)
    ~Bug Buzz

    Easy strategy, set up some Quiver Dances and go to town. Some like to make him bulkier, but in my own experience having the Speed and Special Attack right off the bat without Quiver Dances up help substantially.

    [​IMG]
    Gengar (Timid) @ Black Sludge
    4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Spd
    ~Substitute
    ~Disable
    ~Shadow Ball
    ~Focus Blast
    Also an easy set to use. Substitute, then Disable the move, and laugh as the opponent either switches out or is forced to use a non-STAB or NVE move.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    To combine what 2 other posters above me said, you could run T-Wave over Magic Coat and then use Mental Herb over Rocky Helmet. With this change you will be able to stop lead Volcarona from sweeping you, while still being able to set-up against faster Taunt users, for once, or even better paralyze them as they use Taunt in the first turn, and then set-up on the next turn, so you have a 25% chance to get both hazards up, and you made their Taunter useless.
  10. asterat

    asterat

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    Hi there trinintoruleune or tritiytrollolune can I just call you big T?

    You have a pretty solid team here, my main concern is sun teams, and the fact that dragonite is your only dude who can seriously hurt them. If he locks himself into outrage he is easily revenged killed by genesect or others. Using a choice scarf terrakion puts pressure on those sun teams and can hit blissey/chansey hard. In order to do this I would replace magnezone with a SpD rotom-w (who also gives you a Tornadus-T switch in). Starmie would then be replaced with a choice scarf terrakion. With these changes you would have 3 choice scarf user so using a subsplit or subdisable gengar might be a good idea. This does remove your only rapid spinner but starmie can't get past jellicent anyways. Deoxys-D will often also be able to keep hazards off the field for a while before dying and going into a thing to take out the hazard setter at hand. An offensive set utilizing psycho boost and hidden power fire could also work.

    Sets (open)

    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    ~ Close Combat
    ~ Stone Edge
    ~ X-Scissor
    ~ Rock Slide / Sacred Sword


    Gengar (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Pain Split
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast


    Rotom-W @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 36 SAtk/ 224SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)

    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split
  11. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene what level does ninjask learn choice scarf?
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    Thanks for the rate, inanimate blob! Your Volcarona suggestion looks pretty cool, but it doesn't exactly help, since it exacerbates an unwanted Stealth Rock vulnerability already present with the use of Dragonite. SubDisable Gengar is also cool, but it doesn't exactly help against Starmie. However, I'll give it a test run, since it looks like it could do work against many of the other spinners out there.

    I'll be sure to give that a test. Thanks for the rate and Luvdisc alexwolf!

    You can do what Jimbon and a few others do and call me TNT. However, I'll let you choose what you want to call me (provided it doesn't have any expletives). Now, onto the substance of this rate. You mentioned replacing Starmie with both Choice Scarf Terrakion and Specially Defensive Rotom-W. I'll assume in one of those instances, you meant Genesect. These are all really good suggestions, so I'll try all of them out. Thanks Asterat!
  12. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    I was using a similar HO team on the suspect ladder, and a gengar set that worked really well for me was this:
    Gengar (Timid) @ Focus Sash
    4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd
    -Substitute
    -Shadow Ball
    -Hidden Power [fire]
    -Destiny Bond

    Now having focus sash and substitute may seem counterproductive, but they let you deal with the different rapid spinners. Focus sash lets you beat starmie, while substitute lets you lure spinners like tentacruel as you put yourself in KO range and then D-bond them. Seriously, I got so many ragequits as I send in deo-D, set up hazards, switched to gar, subbed down, and then dbonded the opponent's spinner. The attacking options let you OHKO starmie and forretress (minus sturdy, which should be broken by the hazards) while giving you very viable attacking options outside of spin-blocking. This set makes a nice scizor check, for example, assuming the sash is unused.

    On starmie, I would suggest switching to a bulkier set with recover > thunderbolt--I don't know that you really need the coverage, and starmie could do with some added bulk. I would also suggest having surf > hydro pump--hpump has more power, but reliability is really preferred on a spinner who is vital to the team's success.

    Finally, I would suggest replacing magnezone with a second set-up sweeper. I find that on deo-d HO teams, a sort of "double dragon" strategy works best--instead of having a physical powerhouse and a special one, by having two physical sweepers you put tremendous pressure on the opponent's physical wall(s), especially given the hazards. I would recommend a fighting type in magnezone's spot--a personal favorite is lucario, who is really underrated this gen. With hazards down, there is very very little that can survive a single hit from +2 LO lucario. Luke also has really nice synergy with dragonite--it resists rock, ice and dragon for dnite while dnite resists fighting, ground, and fire. This makes them extremely effective partners in smashing the opponent's defensive core. Here's the set I'd recommend:

    Lucatio (Adamant) @ Life Orb
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    -Swords Dance
    -Close Combat
    -Extremespeed
    -Bullet Punch / Crunch / Ice Punch
    This set is really incredible with hazard support, it sweeps most teams straight out. I personally like bullet punch in the last slot, as it allows you to pick off sweepers like gengar and terrakion that resist normal (it easily OHKOs both at +2). Crunch and ice punch are options though for getting though stuff like slowbro and jellicent or gliscor, respectively, but your team already has a lot of heavy hitters, so IMO BP is the best option.

    GL with the team, hope I helped!
  13. garchompubers

    garchompubers

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    Holy Shit this is a nonweather team!(yes :D) Anyways... I kind of feel like you don't have a good counter to rain. Starmie is frail, and nothing wants to take a hit from hyper offense rain teams... In general you have no walls at all, beside Deoxys D, which is probably your lead. I'll reccomend to find just one mix wall like ferrothorn or P2 or latias, something that can deal with weather well. Your gengar can be switched to a subdisable/subpainsplit set, as those are very useful in the current metagame. And scarf gengar is also easily walled. I think you should change your Dnite to bulky DD, as it plays with perfect synergy with magnezone and can easily set up and sweep
  14. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene what level does ninjask learn choice scarf?
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    That Gengar may just be what my team needed. OH MY GOSH THANK YOU SO MUCH KIDOGO!!! Seriously though, I love you for posting that set. If I could Luvdisc posts, I'd Luvdisc it in an instant. Lucario is a pretty cool option, and is one that I will also try out. The Starmie change is also something I agree with, so thanks! Once again, thank you very much for this extremely helpful rate Kidogo!

    It's a nonweather team, but the whole principle was based around heavy offense. I don't exactly need a wall for this team. I'll try Latias out, since it has a powerful CM set. Thanks for the rate garchompubers!
  15. Ricky Horror

    Ricky Horror

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    Hi, I run a similar team to your current one, and I can see that it struggles with Gastrodon and Bulk up Conkeldurr. I'd suggest running Psychic over Psyshock on Starmie, and Thunderbolt for Grass knot.
  16. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
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    Hey Trinitrotoluene, very nice team!

    Almost everything has been covered by other rates so I'll keep this rate short. Specs Magnezone is an amazing pokemon but imo Thunderbolt really is a wasted slot, you'll almost always be going for Volt Switch against anything you'll be using Thunderbolt against because Volt Switch hits hard enough against your intended targets, Volt Switch lets you go out to a favourable matchup on the off chance it dosen't do enough damage, Flash Cannon can always be used against anything you can't OHKO but it also provides a chance of a Special Defense drop and Thunderbolt offers nothing but slightly more power. Because of this, I suggest running Thunder, Discharge or Sleep Talk over Thunderbolt on Magnezone. Thunder is the option I'd pick on this team and for good reason, Thunder absolutely murders rain and lets you OHKO mons like Scizor and 2HKO mons like Jirachi as well as the entirety of OU other than the pink blobs and mons who resist it / are immune to it, Thunder also has a 30% para rate whcih can turn the tides of a close match. Discharge is pretty much a less powerfull, more accurate Thunder and is there for providing that para chance in tight situations. Sleep Talk is an option usually used on teams weak to Breloom, as it can switch in on spore and then get off a suprise kill on Breloom (unless you get Volt Switch, but if that happens Breloom will be severely weakened and you can go to whatever your Breloom check is) seeing as your team handles Breloom with relative ease you may decide that Thunder / Discharge is better but Sleep Talk means you won't have to sleep fodder anything if they get you into that position and suprise factor is a great thing to have on any team.

    Waterfall over Earthquake on Dragonite is worth a mention. Waterfall and Earthquake have relatively similiar coverage, but Waterfall can mess with rain even more as well as getting the OHKO on Gliscor, Balloon Heatran etc. and only really misses out on OHKOing a few mons like Jirachi, who is trapped by Magnezone. Waterfall also has a nice flinch chance that can be used in conjunction with Magnezone's Thunder / Discharge parahax to make this team a really annoying one to face.

    Anyway, I hope this rate helped and GL with the team! Luvdisc'd :)

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