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GSC In-game tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Redew, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I don't like how everyone is now making statements, 'Hypnosis is inaccurate so we needn't be afraid of being put to sleep' or 'Iron Tail can miss so Steelix is a pushover'. If a move is unreliable, then we might be reluctant to use it, but something like Dynamicpunch has a 25% chance to connect twice in a row on you, which is threatening enough.

    Agreed that Meganium makes a better Poliwrath counter than Feraligatr. Both take about the same damage from Dynamicpunch, and Feraligatr can't retaliate as effectively.

    I have also been expressing discontent about Cyndaquil being Top tier rather continuously and consistently, but Totodile -> Top, Cyndaquil -> High, Chikorita -> Mid appears to be accurate enough, and I don't think pushing Cyndaquil down anymore makes sense. Its main problem is that period where it's stuck with Ember (it's not exactly bad when it first gets; in fact, it's doing more poorly before it gets Ember), but let's not exaggerate it. It could always get Dig however.

    As for Geodude being inefficient against Miltank... I think it's an okay idea to pick up the Rollout TM to the north from Goldenrod, and use it in combination with Defense Curl for a pretty reliable victory. You might as well drop both moves at your earliest convenience afterwards. It's also not impossible to take Miltank down by the power of cooperation, such as someone using Leer once or twice. Better not provoke a Rollout though, unless you also Mud-Slap it before that or something.

    Even Machop can get owned by Attract + Stomp flinchhax.
  2. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    I'm still a bit unsure about Quilava's position in High. Maybe a very low High? Ember is still Ember, whether it's off of 80 Special Attack or not. You're still using that same move until you get Flame Wheel. This is what Lucchini was talking about with Bayleef. It's stuck with a 55 Base power move until it gets Body Slam (or Headbutt?). Ember is still a shitty move to go that long with. I AM saying it sucks up experience because it really does. I never really needed it until it evolved into Typlosion and got its bitchin' Flamethrower because everything it did, everything else on my team did better. It WAS dead weight in the most literal sense of the word. Let's not even get into the fact that (Vincent) Pryce and Jasmine are the only two Gym Leaders aside from Bugsy that Cyndaquil has a decent chance to beat of the Johto 8.

    Hypnosis has 55 Accuracy in GSC, which is only 5% higher than Dynamicpunch. This isn't a case where it's probable that the foe will hit with Hypnosis twice...it's the fact that you've got such a poor chance of having trouble with Hypnosis. Morty's not exactly a huge threat in GSC, with him spamming Curse and all.

    @TM13: Consider the fact that most of the stuff you get for earlygame is weak to Gust. I'd certainly prefer throwing my Geodude at it than a Cyndaquil. Or I could go catch a Bellsprout and get Rocky from that guy in Violet, but he's not good in the long run thanks to Metal Coat being found way late and no offenses.

    On the other side of the coin, Mantine's actually not that bad. I had issues at times with its SpAtk stat, but other than that, no problems at all.
  3. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Falkner's Pidgeotto would still rather be tossing Mud Slaps because 20*2 > 40*1.5*0.5. Onix is definitely a legitimate counter, and yes he's not good in the long run but Geodude has his own share of problems lategame when special attacks become more common and lesser things get stuck to using nothing but Tackle.

    And really, Razor Leaf vs. Ember? If we factor in Bayleef's lower SpA, you find that Bayleef is only barely outdamaging Quilava. Ember is definitely not shitty, and if you can stand for Bayleef's Razor Leaf you can stand for Quilava's Ember. L20 Bayleef with 7IV/0EV has 33 SpA, Quilava has 39. Against some random dipshit of the same level (e.g. Raticate), which has 49 HP / 35 SpD, Bayleef does 12 damage with Razor Leaf, Quilava does 11 damage with Ember. Yes, Bayleef does do more damage, but the difference isn't significant enough until a much higher level, by then Quilava will already be rocking with Flame Wheel while Bayleef is still stuck with Razor Leaf. No, please, just no, stop the 'Ember is shit' train. It is not shit, and it is definitely comparable with Razor Leaf, thanks to Quilava's slightly superior special attack making up for the loss in base power.

    @TheKAM1993: Quilava doesn't learn Fire Punch and gets Flame Wheel long before evolving to Typhlosion.
  4. TheKAM1993

    TheKAM1993

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    I never said it did. And 5 levels isn't long.
  5. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    By this logic, we can say that Paras is good because it can live off of Cut to kill the same dipshit Raticate while it waits for Slash. Ember isn't good enough because it doesn't contribute enough damage in the midgame to actual threats. You are facing Chuck, who has a Poliwrath and a Primape who both outspeed and hit hard enough to cause significant problems to Quilava, yet Bayleef does significantly better with its Razor Leaf. Meganium can solo Pryce's entire gym (Piloswine has a pathetic Base 60 SpAtk, meaning STAB Blizzard will hurt, but never threatens to OHKO barring a crit, while Meganium 2HKO's back), takes down Kingdra with Razor Leaf if you really want to (although Body Slam is probably a better option?), and contributes quite nicely in Kanto.
  6. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Yay, thanks for taking my entire argument out of context! I used Raticate to show that there isn't much of a difference between Bayleef and Quilava against neutral targets, so how does a wild Paras with Cut suddenly come into the equation? Yes, Poliwrath does shit all over Quilava, as does Kingdra, but remember that in Johto you face far more Zubats and Koffings than Poliwraths and Kingdras, all of which Quilava performs better against because it can STAB ember while Bayleef is stuck to loltackle.

    I really don't understand why you're worshipping Razor Leaf for doing like 10% more damage when Ember performs better against things like Team Rocket, which are much more numerous in-game than say, this random poliwrath that a gym leader has. And considering both are just about on equal footing against neutral targets (i.e. your beloved raticate), I'd say that Quilava > Bayleef, and hence Cyndaquil > Chikorita.

    Meganium is capable of soloing Pryce's gym, sure, but Quilava is a much more surefire way of taking Pryce down given that it doesn't take SE damage to anything.
  7. Pika25

    Pika25

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    Don't forget Pryce has Seel and Dewgong, but I don't recall if they have water attacks to use against Quill/Ty. True Seel resists Fire thanks to it not being ice type... but he's horribly underleveled unless you take him on immediately after Morty, which almost no one does.
  8. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    Hypnosis has always had 60% accuracy except in DP

    You are mixing up with Sing which actually has 55% accuracy.
  9. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Seel and Dewgong all have Ice moves (and rest i think), Piloswine doesn't even have Mud-Slap to stop Quilava from destroying it.

    Besides, even earning the right to challenge Mahogany requires you to drive Team Rocket out of the area, which can easily bring Quilava up to par for the gym.
  10. neilymon

    neilymon

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    Love this thread. I'm playing through Crystal right now (with no access to trades) so I'm really interested to see what ideas people have had for more efficient playthroughs. A few thoughts:

    - Geodude might actually be a few spots too low. Once you catch one on Route 46 on your second trip out of New Bark Town, he immediately becomes your most useful Pokemon, especially if you have Chikorita. He levels up quickly enough that he learns Rock Throw in time for Falkner/Bugsy. STAB Magnitude has plenty of utility throughout the game too. In my mind, a must-have along with Abra for an optimal playthrough (even if they stay NFE).

    - Does anyone else (not using Cyndaquil) grab a Spearow just to speed through Sprout Tower?

    - Machop is definitely the best way to beat Whitney. Try to grab the Coin Case while facing only one trainer; after you trade for Machop, go back to the Underground and beat everyone else, then use Machop on everyone in the gym. By the time you get to Whitney, your L18 Machop (holding the Gold Berry it comes with) beats Miltank 100% of the time.

    - What's the most efficient way to deal with Steelix if your (Chikorita) team is underleveled? Machop doesn't last long enough against Iron Tail to KO him. Is it actually worth grabbing a Growlithe early on just for Jasmine (and Pryce)?
  11. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    You don't really need a Fire type. Kadabra/Hypno with Fire Punch does a shitload of damage to Steelix. Also, a Meganium Reflect may help.
  12. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Why not go get a Magmar instead? It's useful for the entire game, and it isn't terrib-ok, it is kinda hard to find, but it's useful for the entire game.

    A Geodude-Chikorita core is a really good way to go through the game. Chikorita covers Geodude's weaknesses and Geodude covers Chikorita's.

    As for me, I hardly ever use Spearow because Pidgey is too good for early game not to use. Of course, nowadays I always use Zubat and Leech Life shenanigans to go through Sprout Tower (even if it is inefficent). My last few playthroughs have had me using Cyndaquil, and he's always left a foul taste in my mouth after beating the game. I just keep feeling like I could have gotten something more reliable, more durable, and by the time it's a Typlosion, I really wish I had gone with Chikorita or Totodile. It doesn't contribute enough in the major battle (because Rockets are...hard to beat? The dipshit Raticate is harder to beat than the Rockets in GSC) to make me want to train it up.


    Cyndaquil's Earlygame isn't all that spectacular either. Pretty much anything can take out the Caterpie and Weedle that Cyndaquil can fry, and its performance at Sprout Tower is great. It does ok in Falkner's gym, but if Geodude takes a great amount of damage from Mud Slap like those calcs from earlier said, I'd be afraid to send a Cyndaquil in. Bugsy dies to Quilava, but Whitney crushes the echidna. I see it more as Chikorita = Cyndaquil in terms of usefulness in-game. Cyndaquil can take out the easier foes more easily than Chikorita, but Chikorita performs better in Gyms and other boss battles.

    I can't remember for sure if Seel packs Rest, but I'm almost positive that Dewgong packs it.
  13. neilymon

    neilymon

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    @Alice In Strings: Can't get Magmar in Burned Tower in Crystal. It's incredibly annoying. You can keep reloading until you hatch a Magby from the Odd Egg, but that defeats the very premise of efficiency. What do you use Pidgey for? Just wondering if I should be taking it or Zubat over Spearow when the latter starts with Peck and gets me through Sprout Tower without having to level up. Not that I'd use any of them after Abra and Machop join the party. BTW, I really appreciate your insights on Cyndaquil. I agree with him being on the same tier as Chikorita instead of being anywhere close to Totodile.

    @Hemp Man: Holy crap that worked well. I had to start with Bayleef against Steelix to set up Reflect (my Kadabra can't handle an Iron Tail), but then a couple of Fire Punches and it was over.

    What do other Chikorita players use against Jasmine?

    (also: Do you guys delay evolution?)
  14. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I actually beat Jasmine with Meganium myself. Mud-Slap, despite being utterly useless move, actually works against the Magnemites. Then Reflect + Razor Leaf spam against Steelix.
  15. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Zubat, Pidgey and Spearow start off as three very different Pokemon.



    Crobat DOES end up being the best one at the endgame, with that insane speed stat and Base 90 Attack Shadow Balls, Sludge Bombs, and Wing Attacks being thrown every which way. That being said, it really does suck in the earlygame, starting with Leech Life and having to wait a good few levels for Bite.


    Pidgey is a well rounded Pokemon that always has something to contribute throughout the game. Gust being a Flying type move was a huge boon to Pidgey, as it now has a Flying type move to support it until it gets Wing Attack. It does have a shit period, but once you get Wing Attack, it does well enough for the entire game.

    Spearow starts with Peck, and is sort of a Pidgey who forgot what defense means. If it can't take something out in one hit, it'll probably bite the dust. The good news is that Fearow usually does pack the attack power to take things out in one hit, and it does get Drill Peck, which is really nice.

    Despite what I said a couple of pages ago, it really does depend on what you want. Do you want a bulky Flying type who won't deal damage as quickly? Do you want a glass cannon? Or do you want a stupid fast attacker?

    Being a part of the Green Dino Corperation myself, I tend to use Mantine or Tentacool. Both pack BubbleBeam and both pack good Special Stats (good enough, anyway) to blast through the Magneduo and Steelix (because Magnemite is a threat with the oh so powerful Thundershock?).
  16. neilymon

    neilymon

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    Fair enough. It certainly sounds like Crobat is worth the early-game investment.

    Part of my problem is that I'm trying to avoid going out of my way to level my team up. After Goldenrod, it's annoying enough as is having to shepherd Abra into Kadabra in time to sweep against Morty/Chuck. With that said, I'm sure there must be enough trainers after Ecruteak to raise a Tentacool into the 20s.

    Or maybe it's just faster to throw Fire Punch onto Kadabra, squeak by Jasmine, and use the Red Gyarados as my Water-type. That would give me Meganium / Kadabra / Graveler / Machoke / Gyarados / *** as my E4 team. Either a Heracross or a Tauros as the last one? Or do I need something with an Ice move?
  17. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Crobat have two problems:

    1. Zubat can't deal damage at all, Zubat's Leech Seed just deal 1-4 of damage... and it just have 15 PP's, in other words, it needs to be piggybagged until it evolves to Golbat, or you'll gonna need to take the pain of train him, getting back a lot to Pokécenters, and expecting Supersonic hits and stuff.

    2. Even if you work to evolve Zubat into Golbat, we also aplied the same argument against Pichu; you're gonna need to raise it's happiness, and that will take a lot of in-real-time gameplay or a lot of a lot of in-game gameplay.

    Still, Crobat is good enough to being Mid Tier, he's just really good once he start to learn it's important moves and you can pass him the correct TM's.

    Also, teach to your Kadabra Ice Punch for the Elite Four.
  18. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Yeah, ThunderPunch for Gyarados and Ice Punch for Dragonite. Aerodactyl outspeeds Kadabra, so get some Reflect up before fighting him.
  19. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Being a Zubat user myself, I can assure you that Golbat doesn't take all that long to Happiness evolve. You'll usually get it in two or three levels after getting your Golbat if you've been keeping it healthy and happy.
  20. neilymon

    neilymon

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    So what moveset do you guys give Kadabra for the E4?
    Psychic / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Thunder Punch

    No Recover or Reflect? That seems like it's lacking in staying power. Maybe drop Fire Punch after Jasmine?
  21. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Yeah, I trained Zubat's, too, I actually love Golbat, and I keep pressing B for don't let him evolve, at least for some levels, because I don't like too much Crobat, he's still my same Zubat as before, so, I'm ok with that, just don't so fast, lol. Anyway, on topic, if you're playing with relative calm, back tracking a while, doing stuff there and here, yes, Golbat doesn't have too much problem to evolve on just few levels, but on a efficient play (like exposed on the first post of this thread), you're gonna take more than few levels to evolve it, but even then, it's not that bad in the case of Golbat, it's base speed is good enough to outspeed all it needs before, and it's other stats doesn't get a huge buff at evolving into Crobat, but it is still a small thing to consider, he doesn't evolve too fast and you need to piggybag Zubat, too.

    About Kadabra:

    Psychic / Ice Punch / ThunderPunch / Fire Punch

    Yes, best set, but you can drop Fire Punch once you beat the Gym. #7, and use whatever other move, Recover is fine if you want to save money, but Reflect is better, generally. The 80% of time you're gonna use Psychic, ThunderPunch against weak stuff (main targets: Slowbro, Starmie), Ice Punch for the same (main target: Dragonite), and Fire Punch for the Ice and Steel stuff. Rebember that on this generation, the physical/special split is determined by the type and not the move, and Ice/Fire/Electric are Special types, thus, Kadabra is gonna hit hard always.

    Still, you can also forgoe Fire Punch if your starter is Cyndaquil (best Starter), or you can also do that once Jasmine as you can still hit hard with Psychic/Psybeam all the other stuff.
  22. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Basically:

    WILL:
    Xatu - Ice Punch / ThunderPunch
    Jynx - Fire Punch
    Slowbro - ThunderPunch
    Exeugutor - Fire Punch / Ice Punch

    KOGA:
    Ariados - Psychic
    Venomoth - Psychic
    Foretress - Fire Punch
    Muk - Psychic
    Crobat - Psychic

    BRUNO:
    Hitmontop - Psychic
    Hitmonlee - Psychic
    Hitmonchan - Psychic
    Onix - Ice Punch (...or Razor Leaf from Meganium)
    Machamp - Psychic

    KAREN:
    Umbreon - Use Another Pokemon
    Vileplume - Psychic / Ice Punch / Fire Punch
    Mukrow - Ice Punch / ThunderPunch
    Gengar - Psychic
    Houndoom - Use Another Pokemon

    LANCE:
    Gyarados - ThunderPunch
    Charizard - ThunderPunch
    Aerodactyl - ThunderPunch
    Dragonite - Ice Punch
    Dragonite - Ice Punch
    Dragonite - Ice Punch

    As you can see, Kadabra has the change to SE hit everyone besides Houndoom and Umbreon. Also, Crobat and Aerodactyl outspeed you, and the latter's Hyper Beam will hurt. Reflect from Meganium can help Kadabra's defense.
  23. neilymon

    neilymon

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    @Hemp Man: Wow - that's really helpful. Fire Punch seems a lot more optional when you write it out like that, although I'm going to stick with it since I won't have another Ice-type move on my team.

    Back to Jasmine for a second - my underleveled team really had to do some janky stuff to make it work:
    1) Basically, I led with Kadabra and disposed of Magnemite, but then when Steelix shows up I have to switch out (Iron Tail OHKOs him). If I switch to Bayleef, he should survive the incoming Iron Tail so he can put up a Reflect, but will die the next turn; I prefer to avoid this scenario in case of a critical hit on the initial Iron Tail.
    2) So instead, I switch to Martyr #1, who takes the Iron Tail and dies. Then Bayleef comes in and puts up a Reflect. But again, he's too underleveled to Razor Leaf Steelix to death (even after Reflect, Iron Tail 2HKOs him). So again, I have to switch to a Martyr #2 to eat the next Iron Tail.
    3) Finally, Kadabra comes back with full health and Reflect set up, and Fire Punch 2HKOs Steelix.

    Can anyone find a more elegant solution?

    EDIT: I'm stupid. Start with Bayleef, set up Reflect, then switch to Kadabra and Fire Punch everything. Duh.
  24. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Other easy and elegant solutions:

    Just use something that resist Iron Tail, had some defense, and is nto weak to rock, and that is... any Electric and Water Pokémon, actually, and just do whatever from there, he can't damage you at all. If you don't carry any of those two types, then you're still having easy options, Steelix is pretty much 2HKOed by any Fire or Water attack on the entire game, and if that attack is STAB, it can even OHKO, even if your Pokémon is low leveled.

    That is not a hard gym, anyway.
  25. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Cyndaquil needs to grind a bit to have Ember for the Bellsprouts in the tower so Chikorita functions about the same there (don't think the two Hoothoots there know Peck but I could be wrong), and nearly everyone at that point in the game either resists Vine Whip or OHKOs with a STAB. But yeah, Spearow is the best Pokemon to catch at that point in the game and he facerolls the tower.

    If you're unable to fully evolve Machop, going through the motions to get one and even giving it exp in Whitney's gym could be detrimental to longterm efficiency. Base level Machop is outsped and 2HKO'd by Stomp, not to mention that he could be flinched with it, so it's by no means safe (not sure how much exp Machop would need to take 2 Stomps and stay alive). Depending on whom you're training, there is more than one way of dealing with Whitney - sleep, paralysis, using Leer and then hitting with a powerful attack or two.

    A Surf takes care of Steelix better than anything else (unless you fail to OHKO and Steelix uses Sunny Day). You've been surfing for a bit by now, probably picked something up that you'll need for Whirlpool/Waterfall later on (eg Poliwhirl, Gyarados, Tentacool). Just have it use Surf while somebody Digs the Magnemites.

    Leech Life doesn't hit them very hard at all; I think Spinarak with Poison Sting is a good comparison in terms of damage (minus sapping 1 HP every attack).

    Pidgey definitely doesn't do anything better than Spearow (besides having a miniscule durability lead) and while he could replace Spearow, he's definitely inferior.

    Crobat learns neither Shadow Ball nor Sludge Bomb in this generation. If you want one still, better wait for the evolved Golbats and use a Friend Ball because coverage is a serious issue and you have to wait until lv. 30 for Wing Attack, so a decent Return remedies the problem, not to mention it will evolve soon. Pichu comes out of an egg and doesn't have the same luxury.

    They both have Thunderbolts actually... And Bubblebeam is worthless when Surf is given to you for free two gyms earlier, besides when your movepool is limited and you go into the next storyline Rocket place without plans to take trips to the PokeCentre for PP restoration.

    I find that Fire Punch is unnecessary on Kadabra when you usually have somebody who can deal with Steelix (some Surfer most likely), and I keep both Psybeam and Psychic not to run out of PP until Reflect. Forretress can also be Surfed by anyone (trained Red Gyarados should 2HKO), and I wouldn't waste a moveslot for it. That said, Fire Punch is cheap as dirt, and there's no point in keeping Psybeam for the E4. Helps with Jynx too.

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