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GSC In-game tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Redew, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Redew

    Redew D:<
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    Okay, so I've decided to put Tauros in Mid because of the very slim chance that you will ever see one (4-5%), and Phanpy will most likely be Low to Bottom.

    edit: also, if the only useful thing Misdreavus does is kill Red's Snorlax then it should still stay in the same tier. i mean, yeah, i hate facing him too, but i'm not going to put Mareep in a higher tier because it can kill Falker's team easily.
  2. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Doesn't the AI switch out on the last turn of Perish Song?
  3. Cradily

    Cradily

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    This is a compilation of some updated reviews I wrote for the old thread for larvitar, Caterpie, Spinarak and Pineco. I've also included ones for Ho-Oh and Entei.

    @ TM13 Yes I can say from experience that the AI switch out, unless it was their last pokemon.

    Larvitar-Bottom Tier (GS)
    Availability- Poor, you don't get the chance to run into it until the you get all 18 badges at MT. silver. Also, you do not get tyrannitar until level 55 which is around 10-15 levels higher than the elite four making it a pain to raise.
    Stats-Unbelievable, one of the few 600 BST non legendaries
    Movepool-Excellent, Great stab coverage and it learns powerful moves like earthquake, crunch and rockslide on level up.
    Matchups- You don't get to face anyone else by this time except for Red. If trained, he can hurt Pikachu with earthquake, crunch Espeon and Rockslide Charizard.
    Other info- This pokemon is a pain to raise but the results are impressive.

    Caterpie-Mid tier
    Availability-Beginning. Caterpie can be found on route 2.
    Stats-Average but usable. Butterfree has OK special attack, special defense and speed.
    Moves-Average but quality. Butterfree does not get to exploit its bug typing. It does get psybeam and psychic. Not to mention the three powders very early on. Unfortunately, its only STAB move learned by level up is gust. It does gain access to giga drain though that only becomes available after the Elite four. Butterfree gains access flash which can be helpful.
    Match ups- Butterfree does not help against Falkner. Resists Bugsy well but does not get gust until level 28 to be effective against him. Butterfree's status moves can always be useful in any gym battle. Butterfree can be used against Chuck and Bruno to exploit their psychic weakness.
    Overall-Butterfree is a filler pokemon. Need someone to poison Whitney's Miltank? Or better yet need a sleep powder to catch legendaries? Butterfree can be an easy go to pokemon for those roles that does not need tms to be successful.

    Spinarak-Bottom
    Availability-Beginning but only for Gold and Crystal. Spinarak evolves at level 22 which is decently early.
    Stats-Middling, Ariados' best stat is 90 attack
    Moves- Abhorrent. Spinaraks best move is poison sting until level 17 when it gets night shade. The only move it learns by level up over 20 BP is psychic at level 63. Leech Life is the only bug move it learns. However, most notably Araidos learns spider web which can trap the ever elusive legendary dogs. Other pokemon out class it in this respect though. Through tm's Araidos learns dig, psychic, giga drain and sludge bomb. Sludge bomb would be great on Ariados, but even then it would lack coverage.
    Match ups-Spinarak is tough to use early on until it evolves but even then, Ariados won't be OHKOing Sunkerns in the national park with night shade anytime soon. Jasmine's steel types are immune to poison sting. It fairs OK against Morty since night shade does a good amount to ghastly because of its low HP. Jasmine walls poison sting and leech life and her steelix packs rockslide so be prepared to be crushed. Unfortunately there are no favorable match ups for this spider unless you plan on using a non STAB psychic off of 60 Special Attack.

    Pineco Bottom tier
    Availability -Mid game, once you get the TM for headbutt
    Stats- Decent 90 attack when evolved, outstanding defense and poor speed
    Moves- Pineco has a very small move pool that does not feature a single STAB move outside of pin missile via breeding. All Move learned in level up are normal type moves except for spikes. All damaging attack moves learned by level are recoiling induced moves such as take down, double edge, self destruct and explosion. TM's can be helpful through strength, return or even hyper beam. Forretress can also be a great user of curse as well. However, do not expect Forretress to use any steel type attacks because it doesn't even learn the iron tail TM.
    Match ups
    Unless explosion is your method of defeating pesky gym leader pokemon, this pokemon doesn't offer much. You could abuse that with revives or attempt to use spikes with another roar/whirlwind user or attempt to take other pokemon down with double edge. Other than that, there's always toxic.

    I did not see Ho-Oh on the list but I think it should be

    Ho-Oh (Gold) Top tier
    Availability: Late game- right after clearing Team Rocket from the radio tower which can be done right after beating gym badge 7. However it can be captured at level 40 which is a great level for challenging the Elite four.
    Stats: Outstanding. Ho-Oh has great attack at 130, 110 special attack and a whopping 154 special defense. It also sits at 90 base speed which is not slow by any means.
    Movepool: Ho-Oh owns with Sunny Day, Sacred Fire and Recover which you get when you catch him. By level up it also learns, gust and ancient power to abuse its massive attack stat. It also learns future sight at a very late level which won't be that useful in game though. Ho-Oh nearly learns every single power TM in generation II, from giga drain, to shadowball, to Thunder, and even Earthquake. This pokemon can cover all of its bases and handle anything coming its way.
    Matchups: Assuming you get Ho-Oh as soon as possible you can use it to fight Claire, the battle will be rough because nearly all of her pokemon pack thunderbolt or surf. Defeating her does yield the TM for dragonbreath which can be taught to Ho-OH. Ho-oh can carry his own in the eite four. He can hurt Will's pokemon that are weak to fire and completely destroy Koga with sacred fire. He can use his flying moves on Bruno's fighting types but should stay away from onyx. Karen has a Vileplume and can just generally be beat up with sacred fire again. If you decide to teach dragonbreath to Ho-Oh he can rip through lances team and secure a win. Gyarados could be problematic with out thunder. Gary also has a few pokemon weak to fire as well that can be abused for exp. This Pokemon can also wreck havoc on other gym leaders in the kanto region like Erika.
    Overall, an outstanding pokemon that can fill a need on any team.

    On a side note Ho-Oh can be caught in Silver but only after the player reaches pewter city. Ho-Oh comes at level 70 and does NOT know sacred fire, I think it knows fire blast instead.

    Finally, can we do one on Entei?

    Entei -Mid/low
    Availability, Mid game/Late game and Rare. If you're lucky you will encounter him before the E4 if you want to use your master ball on him.
    Stats: Good for this generation. Solid 100 base speed, Excellent attack and HP but lacking in the special attack department with only 90 which is high enough to work with. Defenses are lower but are still usable with 115 HP.
    Moves: Entei has a movepool similar to Typlosion, Ember (no flame wheel) and flamethrower- what more do you need? He learns flamethrower at 51, which is 10 levels earlier than Typhlosion. He also gets Fire Blast at level 71 and by TM if you like that move better than flamethrower. The only other good special move learned is solar beam which is by TM. The only notable physical moves learned are dig, stomp and Iron tail, which don't add that much but can be used if necessary.
    Favorable match ups: At this point Claire and the Elite four should remain. Entei will fail hard against claire. He will punish Koga however with his Fire type STAB. Other than that, he should only be used when fire type power is needed.
    Other notes: Entei is a decent replacement for Typhlosion if you chose another starter, he can get the job done but he needs the moves to do so. Since he won't be high enough for flamethrower when you get get him, teaching him fire blast might not be a bad idea to take on Koga because without it you would be using ember and fire spin.

    I don't recall if he has bite when you catch him. I think he does but I can't find it on the internet. Anyone else know/remember? bite would be an outstanding move for him.
  4. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    That's not a terribly chance at all; Teddiursa has the same one and currently resides in High tier. What's worse is that it tends to flee before you can catch it.

    Mareep can't help against Falkner's team at all, because it's not available until after you have the first badge (HG/SS changed this).

    Also, Misdreavus knows Mean Look, so Perish Song should wear Snorlax out quickly enough, possibly faster than the average underlevelled team. Alternatively, you could sleep him and inflict both Curse and Nightmare, but I don't see why you wouldn't level up once instead, since that's a more reliable strat.

    Interestingly, a lot of other Mt Silver inhabitants have the appropriate typing/stats to face other Red's Pokemon - e.g. Golbat walls Venusaur pretty badly.
  5. JSND

    JSND

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    Phanpy is like, Terrible until you give it Headbutt/Strength and Rollout TM at which it become usable midgame and not so good at that note(feared Gengar Hypnosis even with Rollout, lose to Poliwrath, almost can't touch Jasmine, don't even bother with Claire lol). As i said before its only useful during Kanto gyms and routes but thats because Kanto is.... Kanto.

    "That's not a terribly chance at all; Teddiursa has the same one and currently resides in High tier. What's worse is that it tends to flee before you can catch it. "

    Tauros is one of the harder pokemon to catch in GSC, and has less alvailability than Teddy so IMO Mid Tier is not that bad

    Also Redew, could you delete the Pursuit mention? It was written during the time when i forgot Dark was Special in GSC

    Maybe like this

    "means it has weird match ups against Morty's gym and Rival's Haunter without Earthquake"
  6. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    It has the same catch rate as Gyarados, and doesn't have Dragon Range to screw over all of your Pokemon in 2 rounds. I don't think we should punish it much, if at all, for its catch rate considering it's not, like, 1% nor is it a swarm-only poke.

    Donphan has huge attack and defence stats, and it's probably not far from OHKOing Jasmine's Magnemites with just Mud-Slap (sic). Rollout isn't something I'd focus much on when discussing it, but it gets all those other normal-type moves everybody else gets, and makes good use of them. Not a bad Pokemon at all, considering a powerful STAB is a luxury for a lot of this game, and Donphan isn't the sole offender.
  7. JSND

    JSND

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    2-3 HK Jasmine maybe?

    Steelix is so pathetic it often fails to deal damage at all, i mean it ALWAYS start with Screech, and spam Iron Tail most of the time, and miss like twice

    As for the comparison, IMO comparing Teddy and Tauros is kind of a bad idea. Tauros and Teddy are both good in sane-person run, where Tauros is worse in bulk and general versatility and Teddy is worse in speed, having better bulk, power, and general versatility

    Or maybe most players actually stop to grind to 60 for Red, im not sure. At level 60(which is unreasonable), Red would be a piece of cake.
  8. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I used to use Gastly with Curse against Red Snorlax's a bunch of times.

    It times a lot of time, but wins. Spite helps to drain Rest's PP.

    @ user Cradily. No, the legendary dogs don't have Bite when catched. The only manner of having them with the attack is relearn it on Stadium2.


    Yes, it does, but when battling Red, there will be a moment in when Snorlax will be the last mon.

    Anyways Misdreavus when catched knows Mean Look.
  9. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Of course Teddy and Tauros aren't identical. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't punish Tauros for a decent 5% encounter rate when we have a far more elusive, difficult-to-catch Pokemon in High tier. Tauros doesn't lose to Ursaring in bulk at all, btw, and it gets hits less often due to high speed (Ursaring's is fine too for most battles).

    idk Iron Tail is kind of a big deal when it hits. Steelix is still trivialised by any decent fire/water type, though.

    Grinding is one thing, but what Pokemon are good at facing Red at lower levels, in an efficient run? Lanturn has the typing to neutralise Blastoise completely for example, while hitting it hard with STAB Spark (you could probably afford Thunder TM by now, so Lapras and Starmie are qually good choices).

    A Spite strategy sounds a bit time-consuming, but still impressive because even a lv. 2 Gastly can pull it off.
  10. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    Curse with Spite, so level 16 when it learns Curse.

    Spite isn't needed IIRC, but saves time.

    Also Gastly has the utility in the Chuck's Gym, killing all the trainers and his Primeape with Curse. The Machop and Machoke in the Gym know Foresight, but switching out to erase its effect exists(having 2 Gastly in the same team is more trollish)
    Not much efficient, but works. Potions help to avoid trips to Pokemon Center to heal Gastly's health drained by Curse.
  11. Redew

    Redew D:<
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    If that's the case then I will move it to Top, seeing as its more useful earlier than Phanpy.

    edit: MID MID I MEANT MID
    My apologies. You are correct. Geodude would have been a better example.
    My main argument over it is that it is mainly useful in Kanto and not Johto unlike the others.
    No problem.
  12. JSND

    JSND

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    "My main argument over it is that it is mainly useful in Kanto and not Johto unlike the others."

    Tauros is like... useful over the whole game, after being caught

    Mid is rather okay for its Mid-Late game alvailability, Catch rate, and rarity, but performance is definitely not its problem
  13. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I'm not saying that Teddiursa needs to go down; what I'm saying is that Tauros's supposed flaw (5% encounter rate) is not much of a flaw at all. If we are consistent with punishing things for availability and challenging catch rates, then not only does Gyarados go down (it wouldn't exactly be its only glaring weakness) from Top, but all of the odd egg exclusives, some of whom are in Mid (once again, not suggesting that they drop) should be in Bottom because the effort and time needed to get the right one you want and and train it up to be useable are quite ridiculous.

    Precisely, we're not exactly so afraid of Primeape that we'd bring a Gastly just for him. Gastly can be bred all of those moves to slowly kill things that it's immune to, which is pretty much the point here. Snorlax is the only exception since it's actually really tough to take down (imagine if it had Curse), but you should have more than one way of dealing with it at reasonably efficient levels.
  14. Redew

    Redew D:<
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    I wasn't talking about Tauros.

    Seeing as I've misinterpreted many things, I'm going to take a moment to read back what has been said.
  15. JSND

    JSND

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    from my research, Snorlax loses to anything Rock, anything steel, and anything Ghost

    Yeah, you can laugh now. A perfect example of early installment weirdness
  16. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Post-Whitney is pretty good availability in a game with 16 gyms.

    Most of them aren't killing him easily unless they explode or something. Machamp with Cross Chop or Hitmonlee with Hi Jump Kick would really help there, though. It's not that Snorlax is very dangerous, it just won't die because of its high level, bulk and Rest.
  17. JSND

    JSND

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    Good point

    Anyway thanks to my genius PC, my save data is gone(seriously, when did this emu become so crappy?)
    Time to do a new run....
  18. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Snorlax wasn't so hard for me, he's bulky yes, but powerful physical attack handle him
  19. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Gyarados being top tier is alright once you factor in what a great him slave it is
  20. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    He's not unique with his HM slave utility though. Psyduck, Poliwhirl and Azumarill learn the same exact HM moves and are easier to catch/raise. His main strengths are coming at lv. 30 when the rest of your party is likely in their mid to high 20s, having high base stats and generally good typing, but his lack of a physical STAB, poor special attack are serious weaknesses, and sloppy Icy Winds aren't ever taking Lance's Barneys down.

    Needs to be driven out of Top Tier together with Cyndaquil (the italics say High tier for some reason btw).
  21. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Krabby learns also Surf Cut Whirlpool Strength
    Furret learns also Surf Cut Strength

    And if Abra is Top Tier, then both Cyndaquil & Totodile are Top tier. Remember that Alakazam doesn't exist in in game run ... (But Psychic / Elemental Punches with 120 Sp Att and 105 speed is still amazing :D)
  22. JSND

    JSND

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    Psy/Golduck is downright one of the best HM Slave in the game since it learns everything
    However Gyara is one of the better fighter while being HM slave i suppose

    Seeing its movepool, Gyara is basically Tauros + Nidoking
  23. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    He doesn't learn Cut, but it learns Surf Strength Flash Whirlpool & Waterfall, yeah
  24. Redew

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    I apologize that I haven't been posting in this much. School is eating up a lot of my time and the only things I have a lot of time for is GPing and battling. I'll still update this, though!

    NARFNra has Hoppip, Oddish, and Remoraid.
  25. NARFNra

    NARFNra

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    Here's what I've got.

    These might be more wordy than they need to be, sorry! It's mostly all the matchups.

    Entries for Hoppip, Remoraid, and Oddish:


    Hoppip for Bottom.
    [​IMG]
    Hoppip
    Availability: Early. Routes 32 and 33, right after Violet City.
    Stats: Speed is great! Unfortunately, that's all it really has. Its attack stats are very low and its defenses are only slightly higher, and the attack difference gets larger and larger as more things start evolving. Jumpluff is one of the fastest things in the game, however.
    Movepool: Horrible. Let me put it this way: It doesn't even get damage until level 10. And that's Tackle. It does get Synthesis extremely early at either the start or level 5(Crystal) but without evolving it doesn't learn a single grass move until Mega Drain at level 30, 36, or 44. Between them(early teens and level 22 or so) it gets the standard Spore/Powder/Powder Trifecta and Leech Seed, meaning it can conceivably Leech/Poison or Leech/Sleep stall things to death with Synthesis.
    Gyms that it fares well against:
    Oh god, here we go. Brock is about the only major fight Hoppip can handle.

    Falkner: No. It probably can't even attack yet.
    Bugsy: It can't even kill Metapod, let alone Kakuna. Scyther can't get a super effective hit on it, but that doesn't matter because Quick Attack kills it quickly anyway. Tackle won't help.
    Miltank: You probably have either Stun Spore or Sleep Powder by now and those can help with Miltank, but that's about it.
    Morty: You can't hurt them and they can hurt you. You can toss a leech seed onto something as well as status, but they'll take you down easily. Skiploom is really only slightly better than Hoppip.
    Chuck: Well, you resist Fighting and Surf. Too bad you don't have any Grass or Flying moves to use on Poliwrath, and your lame defenses mean that both Primeape and Wrath can probably take you down quickly anyway.
    Jasmine: You can't kill the Magnemites without the Leech Spam strategy, and you don't resist their attacks either. You also can't try to hurry things up with Poisonpowder. Steelix in particular kills you.
    Pryce: Really, really, really don't want to be here.
    Clair: You can status something. Just... don't get hit. At all. Especially by Blizzard.

    Will: Meh. You probably finally have Mega Drain(and maybe Solarbeam), for all it's worth, but Will's team is surprisingly vicious to Grass types. You can try to Mega Drain/Solarbeam Slowbro but he'll probably win with Amnesia.
    Koga: Ariados can't hurt you much, but you can't hurt him much back. Venomoth is able to kill you, you can't hurt Forretress, and Muk and Crobat can actually get a super effective hit on you. Not to mention that Crobat is actually faster than/as fast as you.
    Bruno: You can kill Onix. You resist everyone else, but Hitmonchan can actually do fatal damage with Ice Punch and you can't really kill any of them in a reasonable time frame.
    Karen: Vileplume acids you, Gengar curses you, Houndoom blows you out of the water, you can't hurt Murkrow... the only thing you're even sort of good at here is that you're actually more irritating than Umbreon and can win the annoy off with Leech Seed.

    Lance: No. Just no. Everything here hits you super effectively, or so hard it doesn't matter.

    Lt. Surge:
    Neutral hits can still kill Jumpluff without trouble, and Electrode is faster. Stay out.
    Sabrina: Psychic kills you. Maybe you can sleep something.
    Misty: You can kill Quagsire, but Starmie and Lapras have Ice moves. Stay away.
    Erika: Leech Seed doesn't work on grass types, and since your only other trick is Mega Drain you should just back off. Shame you don't get any Flying type attacks.
    Janine: They resist Grass and their STAB KOs you. Just stay out.
    Brock: You can do surprisingly well here by just spamming Giga Drain/Solarbeam for all it's worth. You're much faster. Just watch for incoming Rock attacks.
    Blaine: All of his team can take a hit and kill you without care. Stay out.
    Blue: Eeeeeh. You can kill Rhydon if you 1HKO, but Rock Slide will KO you back. Nothing else is weak enough to die to you.

    Red: You can try to Giga Drain Blastoise but it will just Blizzard you and a Sunnybeam combo will fail because it has Rain Dance. If you're really feeling up to it, you can try to Leech Seed Snorlax and switch to someone who can actually handle him. Just don't put him to sleep.

    Other info: Hoppip is really weak and almost completely useless. Skiploom is nearly as bad, but Jumpluff at least has speed on its side. It dies to Team Rocket. It dies to half the gyms and can't make a dent in the others. It's incapable of dealing even middling damage most of the time, and it doesn't get any good STAB... basically ever. It's really kind of a shame, but such is the life of a Johto Grass type. Compared to other Grasses, it might be better than Paras, but that's a long shot. It is by far one of the least useful early pokemon.

    ------

    Remoraid for Bottom.
    [​IMG]
    Remoraid
    Availability: Late. Remoraid is very late by Johto standards and possibly won't be obtainable until Kanto at level 40. In order to catch one you need to fish at Route 44, either with a Super Rod or when Remoraid is swarming(Fisherman Wilton will call you if so). Due to the unlikeliness of swarms, I'm going to have to say his availability is very low. It also doesn't exist in Crystal.
    Stats: Remoraid is a glass cannon with only mediocre attack stats at the time you get it, especially since it'll probably be about ten levels lower than the rest of your team. Once it reaches level 25(Fairly easy and if you're catching it late then it'll be level 40 anyway) it evolves and becomes Octillery, who is much slower but has vaguely decent defenses as well as very good balanced offenses.
    Movepool: Below average. If swarming, Remoraid will gain a trifecta of Aurora Beam/Psybeam/Bubblebeam(replace this with Surf) at level 22 that will help it deal damage to many foes (though sadly it comes right after the last time Team Rocket is a problem). It also comes with Lock On when caught. However, its TM movepool is pathetic and the only real coverage option it gets is Thief. It can be used for Whirlpool if necessary, though. It is notable for learning Ice Beam naturally, but if you evolve it on time (otherwise its somewhat useless) you'll have to wait until level /54/ to use it. Remoraid can be left unevolved to get it at level 44 in time for the Elite Four, but that delegates it to being severely dead weight for 20 levels.
    Gyms that it fares well against:
    Remoraid comes late and really doesn't do so well, especially since it's underleveled.

    Clair: If you took the time to train him up, he might be able to Aurora Beam the Blizzard Dragonair. Unfortunately, he can't do much to anything else, and is too slow to do anything before dying.

    Will: Octillery is meh and takes a lot of investment, but can be trained as a Remoraid on the common rock/grounds in victory road in order to get Ice Beam before evolving. A level 44 Octillery with Ice Beam can take a Psychic and kill the Xatus. If it's been taught Thief, it might also be able to kill Jynx and Slowbro, but I wouldn't recommend it. Exeggutor doesn't have any Grass moves, but Octillery isn't really tanky and an Egg Bomb will pulverize its soft, fleshy body.
    Koga: Ariados has Giga Drain but also has really bad Special Attack, so conceivably you could Psybeam it to death. I really don't think it's a good idea, though. You might be able to take on Crobat, but he hits pretty hard and you don't want to be Toxiced.
    Bruno: Not fun. Onix dies, yeah, but everything else can hit you pretty heavily. You might have Psybeam on you, but even Hitmonchan's pathetic elemental punches might constitute a problem.
    Karen: Somewhat decent, oddly enough. Vileplume will murder you because you're too slow, but Gengar can't really hurt you and is only dangerous because of Destiny Bond(try Psybeam). Houndoom is deadly but Surf off your Special Attack is pretty good. Murkrow can't kill you before Ice Beam kills it. Umbreon is sort of meh. You don't really have the power to knock it out fast, so it'll annoy you to death.

    Lance: Same as Clair. You can kill the Blizzard 'nite and maybe Aerodactyl. Charizard is a possibility if it can't get off Slash before you kill it, but everything else here is bad news.

    Lt. Surge: No.
    Sabrina: Thief isn't good enough and nothing here has a secondary type to exploit. No.
    Misty: Everything here is a better water type than you. It may seem you can abuse Psybeam's neutrality on them, but it's not very strong at all and all of them have a way to mess you up (Golduck can disable Psybeam, Quagsire can Amnesia up and strike back with Earthquake, Lapras has Perish Song, and Starmie has recover) so you're not really usable.
    Erika: Grass moves are your nemesis, and because they don't show up in Crystal it can't even attempt to alleviate it with Flamethrower(not that it would). Even Jumpluff will take you down.
    Janine: Janine is low level enough that you can probably Surf sweep, but watch out for Giga Drain from Ariados. Luckily, they're not all that fast either.
    Brock: Eh. Surf takes down the 4x weaks, but you're better off just switching for the fossils.
    Blaine: Surf kills this team, but Arcanine and Rapidish might soften you up enough to kill you. Magcargo wins a "worst fire type" award for being slower than you are.
    Blue: Yeeeeeeaaah not great. You can kill Rhydon, and maybe Arcanine. Nothing else except a possible Ice Beam kill for Pidgeot.

    Red: You should be able to kill Charizard. Unfortunately, everything else will kill you, fast.

    Other info: Octillery is probably one of the worst fully evolved water types in the game. It comes late, is easy to miss, doesn't even have any good moves for the time it does show up and is dangerously easy to KO considering its lame speed. It does get acceptable coverage for some of the smaller fights, but realistically you'd be better off with Wooper or something.

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    Oddish for Low.
    [​IMG]
    Oddish
    Availability: Fairly early; Oddish is first found when you reach Ilex Forest, and is fairly common at night.
    Stats: Good early on, but suffer after about Olivine. Oddish has surprisingly good Special Attack for when it starts the game and Gloom is still pretty alright, but if you're not playing Crystal the fact that he can only reach his final evolution at Kanto really murders him. Otherwise, his stats are middling.
    Movepool: Pretty bad, to be honest. Grass/Poison isn't the worst typing, but offensively it's walled by Team Rocket, not a good thing in GSC. Even worse, his best level up move until level 24 is Absorb. What does he get at level 24? Acid. As Gloom, he does get access to Moonlight in the late 30s, but it takes him until level 44 to get Petal Dance. Kanto brings him Giga Drain, though. The Rockets do give him Sludge Bomb and early on he can utilize Cut, but both of these are coming off a sub par attack stat(at least Sludge Bomb gets STAB). He can also try Solarbeam on the way to the E4, as he can be taught Sunny Day from the radio tower.
    Gyms that it fares well against:
    This is probably where Oddish hits a wall. While he's not murdered by Team Rocket like other grass types, he's still a Grass type in Johto. Matchups:

    Bugsy: He can sort of take down Metapod by Poisonpowder stalling him with Absorb, and maybe put the others to sleep, but that's all Oddish wants to be doing in this fight. Kakuna isn't poisonable and takes almost nothing from Absorb, as does Scyther, and Scyther can really hurt him with QA.
    Miltank: Hm. Oddish can probably take down Clefairy without any problems as even if she mimics something it won't matter. Miltank will crush right over him, but he can paralyze her or put her to sleep to assist the rest of the team... Won't hurt her any, though.
    Morty: Doesn't even matter if you're Gloom yet. Morty's gym utterly resists basically anything Oddish can toss at them, taking almost no damage from Absorb and being immune to cut. Status is helpful if you maybe want to slow something down, but I wouldn't leave it in on Gengar's Dream Eater anyway. Gloom should just stay far away from here.
    Chuck: Gloom has a surprisingly good matchup here! Part poison means he resists fighting, and he can probably do well against Poliwrath because he resists both of its attacking moves.
    Jasmine: He resists electricity, but he can't do anything back to the Magnemites. Iron Tail will kill him too.
    Team Rocket: While he's not murdered by poison like the rest of the Johto Grass types, he can't actually do anything back except Cut. That works for a while, but it's not going to help against Koffing much. As a note, this is where he finally gets Sludge Bomb.
    Pryce: Honestly, this is a weird matchup. Theoretically he can take down all the pokemon he uses with Grass STAB, but he's still using Absorb, and thus probably won't even 2HKO anything. Gloom's SpDef isn't the best in the world (though it is nice) and Dewgong will probably get rid of him with Icy Wind. He might have a chance against Pilowine, I guess?
    Clair: Unless he's overleveled and has Petal Dance, all he can do here is spam Sludge Bomb and maybe sleep something. Two of the Dragonairs ruin his day, and Kingdra is questionable due to Dragonbreath. Still, he can sleep her, so that's neat.

    Will: Yeah, no. Nothing on this team doesn't have Psychic, so Gloom is really going to suffer. If you're playing Crystal, this is probably when you're going to want to use the Leaf Stone (Because of finally getting either Solarbeam and Sunny Day or just Petal Dance) but even he won't want to take Psychic from anything here, especially Jynx.
    Koga: If you've got Moonlight, you might have a chance here. A set something like Sludge Bomb/Petal Dance/Moonlight/Cut offers decent enough coverage to wall Ariados, but be careful because Ariados could easily Spider Web you and pass it to Venomoth, who you really don't want to be trapped with. You can't kill Muk or Forretress at all and you don't want to go up against Crobat, so this is another meh matchup.
    Bruno: Surprisingly good. Hitmontop can only hit you neutrally and if you have Moonlight you can abuse the turns he wastes on Dig, while all of Hitmonlee's moves are resisted. Onix dies in about half a second, although since he outspeeds he can possibly set up Sandstorm which makes Moonlight a lot less effective. Hitmonchan might be a minor problem with the elemental punches but Vileplume's tanky enough that they're nonissues. Machamp, however, is a major problem. Resisting Cross Chop doesn't matter because he likely can't be 2HKOd by Petal Dance and Vileplume doesn't like strong Rock Slides.
    Karen: Eh. Umbreon's possibly too defensive to take down and can probably annoy Vileplume to death or stall her beyond sensible limit. Your Vileplume probably wins against hers due to SBomb, but it may take a while due to middling attack. Murkrow resists Petal Dance yet lacks flying moves and so is easy fodder for SBomb, but Gengar is able to take a few hits without trouble even if she's running the absolutely pathetic Lick. And I'm not even going to bother with Houndoom.

    Lance: Hmm. Gyarados might lose to you but you really don't want to take that Hyper Beam. Rain Dance means Moonlight won't help much either, so you'll probably want to stay away. Two of the three Dragonites will murder you with their coverage move and the last one can still Hyper Beam you into oblivion, and obviously Charizard and Aerodactyl are both suicide.

    Lt. Surge: Kanto is never really a problem. If you're playing GS, then you might actually have a Vileplume now. Anyway, Surge's team can't hurt you in any way except by exploding on you, so this is a cakewalk.
    Sabrina: While Vileplume can deal decent damage, this is basically Will part 2 and so Vileplume need not attend.
    Misty: It'd seem like this would be where Vileplume finally comes in handy, but it isn't. Everyone here except Quagsire carries a super effective move, so you're best used hopping in to KO Quaggy and then hopping back out. Somewhat obnoxiously, Quag can actually get an Amnesia in, but Petal Dance still KOs. Just watch out if you get locked in.
    Erika: Tangela can put you to sleep but everyone except Victreebel is easily taken care of with Sludge Bomb. With Moonlight and Sludge Bomb, you can easily take down Victreebel before her Acid does.
    Janine: Everything you have is resisted except Cut, and Crobat and Venomoth will probably both eliminate you.
    Brock: Giga Drain/Solarbeam/Petal Dance destroys his entire team.
    Blaine: Vileplume should sit this one out. I'm pretty sure nothing you have can get even a neutral hit on Magcargo.
    Blue: Eh. Rhydon is naturally eliminated very quickly, and Exeggutor doesn't have any psychic moves and is thus vulnerable to Sludge Bomb. Pidgeot, Alakazam, and Arcanine are all bad news though. Dunno about Gyarados, but I wouldn't recommend fighting it.

    Red: Hm. Pikachu can't kill you, I don't think. You might be able to take down Venusaur too, as he can only hit you for 4x resisted hits while you can hit back for neutral damage. Everything else either eliminates you or is simply too difficult to kill (Snorlax) so you should just leave them alone.

    Other info: Vileplume's biggest two problems are severely bad damage early on and a difficult evolution. If you evolve it early in Crystal, Gloom doesn't get Petal Dance and has to subsist on Absorb as its best(Or should I say, only) grass attack until Solarbeam, which is right before Victory Road. If you're willing to waste some time, you could try breeding Razor Leaf onto it, but the only ways to get it would be breeding from the Sprout family (who learn it at level 37 and by then you should just use the sprouts instead) or from Chikorita(and if you have Chikorita you shouldn't be using Oddish anyway). These mean that essentially it cannot be rectified until the E4, so using it's honestly an uphill battle. Cut being your best move against most things is very unpleasant, and being walled is never fun. In the end it's not so bad that it can't be used, it's just terrible enough that almost any other Grass type probably does its job better. The poison neutrality is pretty good, though, and it's fairly usable in Kanto.


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    Once again, sorry about the excessive length!

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