1. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on our IRC channel and enjoy your stay!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

GSC In-game tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Redew, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Brammi

    Brammi

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,769
    Nomming Espeon Tree for Eevee into Top or (more likely) High tier.

    Eevee (Espeon)
    Availability: Early-Mid
    Stats: Average (Eevee), Above Average (Espeon)
    Movepool: Semi-Shallow
    Good Matchups:
    Chuck (If Mahogany Taken First you can reach the Espeon sweet spot before Chuck without grinding overly hard.)
    Will (See below)
    Koga
    Bruno
    Sabrina
    Janine
    Brock
    Blue
    (Holds its own against alot)
    Other info: With it's amazing speed and Special Attack. And using the 6 level window between Eevee learning bite and Espeon learning Psybeam (30-36) Espeon is equipped with everything it needs to pretty much solo almost all the Pokemon of the first three elite four members. It also has the power to muscle straight past many of the Kanto leaders and against Red, Espeon can take on Venusaur and hold it's own against most of the others (not snorlax) if it is close in level.
  2. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    287
    Proposing Onix for Medium Tier because it's fantastic start, good overall help along the game, and defensive phyisical stats that are equivalent to the best physical walls of the game. He can deal great damage with Screech + Rock Throw on few turns, too.

    If he's able to evolve via traiding, then it should be placed on High or Top Tier, and the comments should have a lot of changes (specially with the gym's stuff). On the HIDE I'll put the version with traiding aplied.

    [​IMG]

    Onix
    Availability: Earlier and easy, you can trade one for a Bellsprout on Violet City.
    Stats: Avarage.
    Movepool: Avarage.
    Gyms that it fares well against: Wins alone against Falkner, Bugsy, Whitney, and Lt. Surge without problem, and is helpful against Morty (needs the Mud-Slap or Dig TM), Jasmine (same as before), Koga, Karen, Janine, Blaine, and Red (good against Pikachu, Snorlax, and Charizard).
    Additional Comments: He's better than Geodude before it evolves, and is somewhat similar to Graveler, except because Onix prefer to deal damage with Bind + Sandstorm and wall the enemy while he's Screeching it for others or himself, too. Also, he can handle and survive to any random Self-Destruct and Explosion, and give you time for revive/heal him's partners on mid battle. He will not sweep any time soon, but he can easy handle a good number of trainers and gyms alone. Also, he's a in-game trade, so, he'll win experience faster and will have better levels with less effort, and if trades are counting, Steelix is just awesome.

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    Steelix
    Availability: Earlier and easy as Onix, you can trade one for a Bellsprout on Violet City.
    Stats: Adove avarage.
    Movepool: Avarage.
    Gyms that it fares well against: Wins alone against Falkner, Bugsy, Whitney, Morty (once evolved), Jasmine, Pryce, Will, Koga, Lt. Surge, Sabrina, Erika, and Janine, and is helpful against Red's Pikachu and Snorlax.
    Additional Comments: While he's Onix, he will be superior to Geodude, and somewhat similar to Graveler, but taking more turns to deal the same damage (but taking less damage from the enemy as well), but once it evolves; thing he can do before Morty with the Metal Coat from a wild Magnemite - but they had only 3% chance to have it -, (or keep it as Onix until aboard the S.S Aqua, somewhat late, sadly), he'll crush and destroy everything on the game that doesn't have Fire or Water attacks, and even then, he can deal huge damage or use support moves before failing or switching-out against them.
  3. Zacharias

    Zacharias

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    13
    Pikachu for Bottom.

    [​IMG]
    Pikachu - Bottom Tier
    Availability: Horrid. In GS, he's found only on Route 2. In Crystal, however, not only is he found on Route 2, but also at the Celadon Game Corner. Better, but still really bad.
    Stats: Decent speed, everything else is blow average.
    Movepool: Above average. Other than Electric and Normal attacks, he can also make use of some TMs such as Rollout or DynamicPunch, but it's not recommended.
    Type: Pure Electric. Weak to ground, resisits itself and Flying, but Pikachu will crumple under any decently powered STAB move anyway.
    Power: Base 50 Atk and Base 55 Sp. Atk isn't going to get him very far, unless you trade him from Yellow and let him keep the Light Ball, which is unlikely.
    Match-ups: Without a copious amount of grinding, Pikachu won't be contibuting anything significant in any major battles after you catch him.
    Additional Comments: You could snag a Thunder Stone and evolve him, but GSC made it very hard to get your hands on one.
  4. Redew

    Redew :O :D
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    Hi! Everyone, please remember to use the form in the OP. Thanks!

    what this means is once you edit it to fit the form accordingly then i will edit in your submission
  5. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    287
    I modified the form to the one of the OP. Sorry for the troubles!
  6. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Does anyone think Haunter and Gengar should have seperate entries? Gengar gets the Elemental punches and can hurt stuff straight away where as most special TMs that Haunter can get arent available until Kanto. And Shadow Ball isnt that great for Haunter either as its physical in this gen.
  7. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    We either assume trading is evolved, or assume none is done. I suppose the difference between Haunter and Gengar is the most striking one, followed by Onix/Steelix. However, even if trading is 'in', it still takes a long time to evolve your Onix, thieving those Magnemites.
  8. Redew

    Redew :O :D
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    Although nobody probably has a link cable anymore, they most likely can't trade; however, I'd still like entries for things that take item to evolve (or just trading in general.)

    i.e. Steelix, Scizor, etc.

    It could go like:

    Haunter
    Haunter--> Gengar

    will update tomorrow or something
  9. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,615
    lol
    [​IMG]
    Weedle - Bottom Tier
    Availability:
    Route 30 on Silver/Crystal. Gold players get this at Bug-Catching contest (or catch Beedrill directly). Honestly there probably isn't a difference other than directly caught Beedrill lacking Poison Sting.
    Stats: Passable Attack and Special Defense, decent speed, but incurable physical bulk.
    Movepool: Enjoy abusing Twineedle for quite a while. Finishing Team Rocket in Mahogany nets you Sludge Bomb.
    Gyms: well it 4x resists Fighting so it's useful against Chuck/Bruno... if the former didn't just blow you away with Fury Swipes Primeape and Surf Poliwrath, and the latter has Rock Slide Machamp. It completely walks over Erika but you must be one dedicated trainer to be using Beedrill in Kanto. Psychics are a no-no: Beedrill cannot kill things in time before it gets killed.
    Other info: Double resists to Fighting and Grass aren't really useful when neither type are dominant in this game, and his main move (Twineedle/Sludge Bomb) gets resisted quite a lot.

    come on guys this is weedle
  10. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,036
    Bite doesn't hit harder than Surf on anything but like Slowpoke line.
  11. TungstenMudkip

    TungstenMudkip

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    19
    I'll make a slight addendum to Totodile only because it was my favorite starter. Against Whitney, he has rage, and enough bulk to take the Rollout or two, and then hit with Headbutt. Same with Bugsy and Scyther, though no Headbutt.

    Surf against Morty does a heck of alot of damage, it usually OHKO's.


    While I'm here, I'll do Elekid / Electabuzz.

    [​IMG]
    Electabuzz
    Crystal: Mid Tier; Gold/Silver: Bottom Tier / out of play

    Availability: Route 34 in Crystal (as an egg). Route 10 (Kanto) in Gold / Silver
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Above Average where it counts
    Gyms that it fares well against: Jasmine, if you grind and buy Fire Punch. Pryce, sort of with the water types. Clair if you bought the Ice Punch. From the Elite 4: Will's team is ripped apart, Koga if you got Fire Punch, can do a bit of damage, Karen you'll do well against for the secondary typing, and Lance is a dead-man. In Kanto: Erika dies to ice punch, Janine's dead, save for Weezing, Misty (except Quaggy) is decimated, and Blastoise is done from Red.
    Comments: Not much competition for that egg in Crystal. Magmar is nice, but fire is inferior. The trick is getting that Elekid, which is tough when it could contain Igglybuff, Pichu, Cleffa, Tyrogue, Magby, Elekid or Smoochum. Electabuzz quickly gets access to Thunderbolt and Ice Punch, even sets up a dizzy punch or light screen if you are bored (Dizzy punch is included in the Crystal Egg). It doesn't need much more than that to really lay a beat down, though it can run fire punch if you have nothing else to fight Magneton.
    It's not quite a Lapras in terms of movepool, but it doesn't have many weaknesses to speak of (though Ground is an issue). Makes up for not having Ampharos in Crystal. In Gold/Silver, he's completely useless, as he comes late, and you have Mareep from the beginning of the game. Mareep DOES NOT have access to an ice move, though.




    Edit: Mareep is High Tier, sorry about that
  12. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    That, and why would one run Dig in postgame? A 60 BP move, really?

    Also, I object to Electabuzz being in Top Tier. The odd egg is terribly inefficient because you can't be sure you'll get what you want from it. Even if we assumed Elekid was guaranteed to hatch, he'd still be terribly underlevelled, and KO'd by a slight breeze. But the main problem is taking a long time to hatch the Odd Egg, and not even being certain that it's Elekid that hatches and not any of the other 6 (or however many) Pokemon.
  13. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Starmie and Exeggutor, but of course you'd just use Slash for Starmie and Ice Punch for Exeggutor.
  14. TungstenMudkip

    TungstenMudkip

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    19
    Point taken. Slightly modified the write-up. I think Mid-Tier is a bit low considering its abilities, it is probably fair considering how hard it is to get. Usually got fairly lucky - saved right outside the Breeding Center, moved up and down, and had to restart maybe three times to get it. The original idea was that it doesn't suck completely, takes a bit of work to get to, but then is usually fairly versatile, and it is gotten very early.
  15. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    287
    I think Electabuzz is Mid-Tier (C), or even Low-Tier, but let's put him as Mid-Tier, why? You have to hatch the egg, and later train him... at least 15 levels until he can be of help to the team (because he'll don't be able to do nothing against Morthy if he's below level 20), and even if you grind him at the instant, Electabuzz is not that great, it's defense is relative low, he can't OHKO too many opponents, even with the Super-Effective Elemental-Punchs, and it's stats are just low against the Elite Four and foward, you're better training a Magnemite or evolving that Evee into a Jolteon, or training a Mareep, or using a Lanturn if you're needing a Electric Pokémon. Ice Punch and Fire Punch doesn't fix the horrible bulky of Electabuzz because he barely OHKO things with them. Even worst: Elekid doesn't evolve into Electabuzz until level 30, somewhat later, and Elekid is as frail as Pikachu.

    Also, it's weakness (Ground) is pretty common on the game, and exist a lot of faster Pokémon than Electabuzz who can make him dead weight. He can't OHKO or even 2HKO the great majority of Explode users, so, that's other bad point for him.

    The GS counterpart is Buttom, not need to say why, I guess.
  16. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    I don't know about you but 95 base special attack is very good, and Fire/Ice Punches should be OHKOing underlevelled trainers' Pokemon easily enough.

    As for those other electric-types you mention:
    Mareep - doesn't exist in Crystal (only game where it could be competing with Electabuzz)
    Magnemite - stuck with Thundershock unless you buy the very expensive Thunder from Casino
    Jolteon - no moves unless you're willing to waste a lot of money
    Lanturn - Spark is better than nothing I guess, but worse speed and offence

    Contrary to what you say, there's no major ground-type trainer until Brock, and the random Nidokings and Sandslashes you meet are underlevelled, fall prey to Ice Punch, and can't really hurt Buzz if they survive a turn (no ground-type STAB in most natural learnsets this generation).

    But again, the odd egg pretty much spells out 'no' to wanting to enjoy a quick playthrough with Elekid. If you really want an electric specialist, you train a puncher like Kazam or Gengar.
  17. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    287
    95 Base Special Attack is nothing very good... is just avarage at best, and of course, you're talking than the others are nothing without TM's, but Electabuzz is nothing without the Ice Punch and Fire Punch TM's. But yeah, if he's overleveled by a good ammount of levels he can be a deadly sweeper (but that's the same true for almost any Pokémon, actually, even Electrode), but if he's at a similar level, he'll just be destroyed by almost any strong STAB attack. And... yeah, it's even harder for him stay on a overlevel, because he's just a Elekid LV5 when you obtain him, and he evolves at LV30, and Elekid's 65 Special Attack base and thin paper defenses makes any try to grind a horrible task, unless you're grinding your Elekid with those Caterpies at the firsts routes, then you'll be able, but I don't think you'll reach to LV30 soon in that way.

    Geodude/Graveler/Onix and some Ice/Ground Wild Pokémon say hello to your Elekid (and any thing with not thin-paper special defense), anyway.

    Electabuzz need too much grind, luck (or too many restart for getting the Elekid), overlevels, time hatching, and even TM's to be good for my like. He's a good example of a Low/Mid Pokémon (a Pokémon who you're willing to waste TM's and a good ammount of time gridding, it can be good), I say Mid just because Elekid learns really soon ThunderPunch.
  18. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Right, the odd egg makes things very inefficient if we decide to train Elekid, and getting up to your team's levels takes time, but I can't agree with the rest of your points.

    95 base special attack is 'average at best', good lord, are you kidding? This is us playing the game not entering a choice-infested competitive meta like that of gens 4 & 5, and offensive bases matter as long as there are good moves that are readily available for the Pokemon's use. Elekid gets Thunderpunch at lv. 9 and can take Fire and Ice Punch TMs without damaging your pockets much at all (you should have enough money for both and maybe 1-2 more as soon as you arrive in Goldenrod, and still have some left for Lemonades and Fresh Waters). The punches are really cheap compared to Thunder/Blizzard/Fire Blast which you may end up not buying at all.

    And for comparison sake, here are the Pokemon available to you in Johto in Crystal who beat Electabuzz in special attack base:

    List (open)
    Alakazam
    Gengar
    Espeon
    Exeggutor
    Magneton
    Jynx
    Raikou
    Jolteon
    Vaporeon
    Typhlosion
    Sunflora
    Arcanine
    Dragonite (though not really)
    Slowbro/king
    Starmie
    Tangela
    Victreebel
    Vileplume


    Okay, so Alakazam and the water-types are probably superior to Electabuzz due to having a very strong STAB move, but some of them are slow (Slowbro/king) or suffer from coverage issues. Electabuzz's easy triple punch access makes it superior to Starmie's Surf and Icy Wind, for instance, making it more flexible. It can smack things with Dizzy Punch pretty well too. Then there are mons who never quite learn a reliable, powerful attack, which includes Egg, Jolteon, Arcanine, all the grass-types. Magneton, even Raikou (who's about as much of a pain in the arse to catch as Elekid is to hatch). And that's about all of the list - so I'd say the only special attacker in GSC that's clearly superior to Electabuzz is Alakazam, and the rest is arguable (Gengar gets no STAB on Thunderpunch for instance).

    I'm not saying Electabuzz needs to be overlevelled. Pay attention to the discrepancy between gym leader levels and the levels of trainers' Pokemon in surrounding areas - there is a large gap. If Buzz is ready to take on gym leaders, he can faceroll the trainers you meet as you advance the story, and he has both the stats and the moves to do it. Electabuzz doesn't need better offence at all, it just wishes it were available more easily. Whether the odd egg makes him Mid/Low is hard to determine (kinda like how we couldn't even have much of a discussion when we were arguing Tauros for Mid/Low in RBY) because the criteria for evaluation are not so clear-cut, but I assure Electabuzz is a superb fighter when it exists.
  19. Redew

    Redew :O :D
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    Updated and all

    Love the discussion going on

    Electabuzz kicked ass in a recent run through of my Crystal. js
  20. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,615
    just reading through here

    Pikachu's actually available pre-Kanto in Crystal with the Odd Egg. Pichu though is pretty much just a shittier version of Elekid that learns Thunderbolt earlier, so it probably should still stay in Bottom. Having TWave might be useful. Might.
  21. x42bn6

    x42bn6

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    38
    Typo - should have said Earthquake.

    I never thought about the Bite/Surf bit.
  22. Redew

    Redew :O :D
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    Okay. I'll write up Pichu today or sometime this week.
  23. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    449
    I started a game with Totodile / Teddiursa / Elekid (Was lucky from Egg). I need money to buym all the TM Punches in Goldenroad, but all of them are top/high for Crystal game ! Currently after Whitney's gym
  24. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    287
    Pichu (C)... He can actually be better, or worst than Electabuzz, it's a weird case. Actually, Pichu's stats are horrible, but Elekid stats are awful, too, so, you'll don't want to use both on at least their firsts levels, Elekid is totally useless before it's at least at LV20 or higher, because he'll be OHKO by anything, and he doesn't have the enough raw power to OHKO before at low levels, so, you'lll need plenty of time gridding both, but...

    Pichu need of Friendship to level up, and Elekid to by on level 30 or higher, both are actually hard to acomplish, Elekid will evolve at the near-end of Jotho, while Pichu... it depends a lot of how you play, if you play a hour each day, Pichu will be able to evolve to Pikachu soon (haircut brothers), level up to LV26 for Thunderbolt, and evolve again to Raichu, outclassing Elekid/Electabuzz (Iron Tail + DynamicPunch are decent/good coverage, Raichu's Thunderbolt deals a lot more of damage than Electabuzz's Thunderpunch, and Raichu have almost the same stats). Taking in account that you'll walk a lot to hatch that egg soon, then you'll be able to walk a lot to fastly evolve Pichu, too, or just spending 1-2 minutes per day on the Haircut brothers + some level ups + 1-2 vitamins + few walking.

    You can also just forgoe the natural learn Thunderbolt, evolve Pichu at level 6 to Pikachu and then to Raichu, and teach Raichu Thunderpunch via TM, and later Thunderbolt via Move Teacher, not a bad idea for fast playing and outclassing by a good branch Elekid on it's first 30 levels, but Raichu will be sightly outclassed once Elekid evolves.

    Once Electabuzz learns Thunderbolt (most probably just before the Elite Four, or after via Move Teacher), he's almost identical to Raichu, with just different coverage moves.

    I say Pichu (C) is Low Tier, while Elekid is Mid Tier, again, Elekid learns Thunderpunch really soon, making somewhat easier to grind it than Pichu (free Thunderpunch is free, and Friendship based evolve of Pichu is somewhat more awful than evolve at level 30, also, he doesn't need Thunder Stone, another plus).

    Pichu and Elekid are buttom, buttom if the hatching egg factor is taking in account as something horrible, but taking in account that may not be a huge problem, then, the Friendship evolve of Pichu is not a huge problem and he can actually evolve to Raichu really early on game.
  25. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    By the way, I think the tiers should be alphabetical order.

    Right now the MID TIER list is.

    Onix, Elekid, Chikorita, Chinchou, Belsporut, Sentrent

    Looks better in Alphabetical Order:

    Bellsprout, Chikorita, Chinchou, Elekid, Onix, Sentrent

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)