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GSC In-game tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Redew, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    I'm really not sure about Pichu (C), given that Thunderstone's source is a Trainer Rematch. Since Raichu doesn't get Fire/Ice Punch he doesn't have Electabuzz's better coverage so his moveset is basically very wonky (Thunderbolt/Iron Tail/DynamicPunch/Quick Attack?).

    Electabuzz learns Thunderbolt naturally at Lv47, which roughly puts you to somewhere in Kanto. While Raichu has a slight advantage in terms of STAB damage, Raichu basically loses once you enter Kanto. Add to that Electabuzz has much more reliable moves as coverage (Iron Tail's accuracy is bullshit and DynamicPunch is...), Raichu isn't really that hot imo. Both suck early on, Raichu has better STAB while Buzz has better coverage, but Kanto basically throws Raichu's advantage out of the window since Buzz is now the one with better STAB and he still has better coverage.
  2. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Hmmm noh ? Level 30 is around Olivine, especially with all the water types and the tower.
  3. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Elekid is very likely to evolve for Chuck, and swing its arms in Pryce's gym. On that note, in what order do you do gyms 5-7 in Johto? It's always Chuck - Jasmine - Pryce for me, but you could do it any way you like, really. I just like the flexibility of having the Fly HM, and it's natural to beat Jasmine as soon as you're done with Chuck (she's the only person in her gym and her Pokemon are mostly a joke because you should have something with Dig and something with Surf).
  4. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Same order as you, but I pick up the Red Gyarados as soon as I get the Surf HM.
  5. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Exactly the same :D
  6. Redew

    Redew jukain sucks
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    Actually, my Elekid evolved even before Olivine.

    This will be fixed when I make a thread in the articles subforum in C&C.
  7. Nyara

    Nyara

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    That's why I said Pichu is low tier, while Elekid is mid tier, Pichu needs less in-game time for evolve, but needs more real-life time (for the thing of the Haircut Brothers, who can speed up a lot that evolution), Pichu can learn naturally Thunderbolt before, but Elekid is better than Pikachu, so, you may want to evolve it ASAP with the Thunderstone and just use the Thunderpunch TM on it, at the end, Electabuzz is better on Kanto, but both are useful there, too, but Raichu can be better for all Jotho on overall, without taking care if you evolve it ASAP, or you level up your Pikachu to LV26 for the natural Thunderbolt.

    With that said, obviously Elekid is better option than Pichu, but Pichu is not that bad, either, both are kinda similar, and Elekid is mostly better for learn fast and naturally Thunderpunch, and for it's extra coverage move for Kanto (and Elite Four at some degree), while Raichu have decent coverage, too, but not that awesome as Electabuzz. Thunder Wave is useful for catching wild Pokémon, anyway.
  8. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    basically this

    at least pichu isn't as bad as some other things you can get (ohai tyrogue and your lack of a fighting stab until 20 levels later)
  9. JSND

    JSND

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    Imma make my contribution

    Tauros

    High Tier

    Alvailability: Route 38, which is the left side of Ecruteak, at day and afternoon on 5%(C) or at 4%(GS).
    Stats: Above Average.
    Movepool: Above Average.
    Additional Comments: Normal Type was pretty much the Dragon of gen 1 if by "Dragon" were saying "everybody live off it for coverage", and it(pretty much) still is but worse in gen 2 thanks to several mechanic changes, providing Neutral Coverage with help from another typing holding its back. Tauros is the type that ignore typing match up with sheer power from your enchanced Normal Type Damage(read: Coverage Type Damage) and "Neutral Coverage with help from another typing holding its back" explained Tauros well. Strength anything to oblivion, and Surf the Rocks, earthquake as you see it fits. It only need Normal moves, Surf, and some TM(admitably Icy Wind, Return and Earthquake) to stay as a solid attacker throughout the entire game. An option to teach it Elemental Attack exist, but its too expensive and inefficient to worth the effort. Realistically Tauros did not have ZOMGWTF coverage like Abra/Starters but it has what it needs at the right place and more powerful Normal Type attacks as its core.

    Comments(read this for my justifications.... basically):
    Tauros alvailability is basically the part where you just won against Whitney, so it is practically THE Mid Game against Morty.

    100 Base Attack and 110ish speed means Tauros hits decently hard(or rather, really hard because lolgen2) and fast. It carries decent bulk as well, as well as a low special attack which is enough to do what it need to use which was Surf.

    It learns Tons of stuff by gen 2 standard. Tauros started with Good enough 65 base Horn Attack. You can go a bit out of the way to get Strength, maybe Return, each provides Tauros with decent STAB with surprisingly good coverage. With Surf to handle Rocks, only Steel and Fightings can pose a problem to Tauros. And it learned Earthquake. Maybe not the best recipient of the TM, but this gave Tauros ONE REAL advantages in its moveset.

    As a sidenote, Rest at 34 is pretty useful early-mid game

    As far as this goes, Tauros is pretty rare and comes a bit underlevelled, something that can be helped by the Eon dancers and surrounding Trainers who can be Horn Attack/Strength spammed to death thanks to GSC underlevelled issue in general, but it starts rather strong in return thanks to having Normal STAB. Tauros match up can be generally summed as Normal Spam. Those who did not resist basically get killed(and pretty soon). Tauros dominates in a sense that it was so strong and durable that it can fight off almost everything, but maybe not everything at once.

    In short, the only reason why its not Top Tier were alvailability, and the fact that its performance is not as absurd as starters and Abra
  10. Redew

    Redew jukain sucks
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    With all due respect, could you fix that up so we can understand what it means? I'm sure it's a great layout of what Tauros does in Gen 2, but I just can't make heads or tails of it. :/
  11. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    the only thing i really understood was
    -catch tauros
    -dump strength/surf hm
    -go to town
  12. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    And spam normal moves (Return, Strength) except against Steelix/Onix
  13. JSND

    JSND

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    Okay, imma simplify this thing


    Availability: Route 38, which is the left side of Ecruteak, In Crystal, it is catchable during day and afternoon on 5% chance. In GS, it is a 4% ecounter.

    Stats: Above Average.

    Movepool: Above Average
    Gyms that it fares well against: Depending on having Earthquake or not, Tauros Gym/Boss match up goes from Amazing into Absurd. Tauros can handle almost every gym after Chuck by the virtue of having High Powered Normal Type as its STAB.

    Other info: Defensively, Normal has one weakness, and one immunity. Fighting Weakness rarely come as a problem(only maybe Chuck, and Bruno's Machamp) while Ghost immunity means its match up against Morty's gym where you are not expected to have Pursuit yet. Offensively, Normal is kind of like gen 4 onwards Dragon, a type with relatively good neutral coverage, coupled with STAB to achieve higher level of power. The resistor can be handled with a coverage moves. That being said, most of Tauros Match up can be summed as: Does it resist Normal? No: Spam Normal Yes: Cover it.



    Now for the basics:
    Tauros is a pokemon that can be economic, or resource using, depending on how you play with him. From the starting point in route 38, the underlevelled Tauros can handle some of the route Trainers and the Ecruteak Dancers with Horn Attack or Headbutt(You get one for free, and its buyable). Coupled with the acess to Olivine, this give Tauros Strength, and Surf, which is all it need to become a good pokemon to use throughout the whole game. You can aim higher by giving it Return(day locked, infinite TM) for more powerful STAB, and Earthquake(rare TM) for some Rock Types, Magneton, and the numerous amount of Ground weak opponent in this game. You can go even higher by giving it Fire Blast for easier Foretress.

    As a sidenote, Tauros learns Rest at level 34. Pretty useful during Mid game, although healing items + Lemonades exist.

    Match Up:
    - Morty: Underlevelled. However, if you give Tauros a small amount of grind(read: going to Olivine) and surf, Tauros can beat the non Gengar. Assuming you grind enough, Tauros soon learns Scary Face that can help the whole team against Gengar.
    - Burning Tower Rival: Like Morty, if you give Tauros a bit of a grind (level 17 is enough), it can beat Gastly with Surf, and 2HKO his starter.
    - Chuck: Actualy beatable, Primeape is 2HKO with Strength, Poliwrath is 3HKO, and its only fighting moves are 50 Acc Dynamic Punch. A Luck based opponent in a way.
    - Jasmine: Surf 3HKO the Steelix. Magnemite is do-able(3HK) even with 45 SpA Surf and resisted Strength, however it has Para + TBolt behind it.
    - Pryce: Normal Spam. Surf 3HKO Piloswine. Tauros can easilly solo this guy.
    - Team Rocket Admin in Radio Tower: Normal Spam
    - Radio Tower Rival: Normal Spam. Haunter can't touch Tauros except for Curse, Magnemite is a total joke. This match up is MUCH easier if you picked Chikorita or Cynadquil.
    - Claire: Normal Spam. Claire is a problem for almost anything, especialy Kingdra with its no weakness at this point(and the rest) of the game, powerful attacks, and ballanced stats. Tauros 2HKO all Dragonair and can solo the Dragonair. It loses to Kingdra unless you get a flinch from Headbutt since it 2HKO with Surf, while it 3HKO with Strength.
    - Victory Road Rival: This is, basically like the previous rival battles, including the fact that Meganium is the hardest of the starter match up, except now you can one shot Haunter and Magneton with Earthquake. Without Earthquake, Magneton is STILL a joke(lol Thundershock and Sonicboom), while Haunter now has Confuse Ray.
    E4
    - Will: Again, Normal Spam. Tauros quite simply can't easilly solo this guy, but he can handle each of his pokemon alone thanks to Normal type attacls
    - Koga: Normal Spam + EQ. Forry can be killed after several EQ or by simply hit it until its dead(read:Until it uses Explosion). In general, Koga's real problem are the fact that he uses Toxic and Double Team.
    - Bruno: Surf the Onix. The fighting type that actualy is troublesome are Machamp. Tauros can sweep the rest.
    - Karen: Normal spam. Relatively simpler since Gengar and Houndoom lose to EQ. Vileplume's Petal Dance were the only problem that comes close to significant.
    - Lance: Thanks to lacking Ice Moves with Power behind it(Because Icy Wind is a joke), Tauros can at most handle one Dragonite. Gyarados is Normal Spammed, but it has decent bulk to take off several attacks(using Rain Dance in the process). Aerodactyl could get a hit before you, but Surf 2HKO. Charizard is 2HKOed.
    Kanto
    - Lt Surge: Tauros solos by spamming Normal Type Attacls, or one shot with EQ.
    - Erika: Normal Spam. Only Tangela has Sleep Powder after all.
    - Blaine: Surf OHKO Magcargo, and his team get 2 shot by Strength. Easilly Solo-able
    - Janine: Her only selling point are the fact that she uses Toxic. Tauros can solo with Normal type moves and OHKO the Weezing with EQ.
    - Misty: Tauros 2 shot everything bar Lapras. It can solo.
    - Brock: Surf alone handles 3 of his team. Kabutops is Normal Spammable despite resistance. Only Omastar is a problem if you did not give Tauros EQ.
    - Blue: A rather difficult math up thanks to his balanced team. 3HKO Pidgeot, 2HKO and get 2HKO by Alakazam, loses to Gyara, 2HKO Rhydon, and even with EQ, Arcanine is a tough match up even with EQ(3HKO). Eggy can only attack with Solarbeam, so you can spam healing items to win if you want to.
    - Sabrina: Only become a problem if she manage to reflect. Tauros 2 shot her whole team.
  14. JSND

    JSND

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    Okay, i just finished my runthrought, and its rather weird
    Oh yeah, before you asked, i actualy beat Johto Gyms with several pokemon. You can see some solo-ing data here because i abused Save State to rematch the Leader.
    As for Kanto Gyms, i soloed them except for Brock, Misty and Blue because i need the EXP.

    Starter:
    Chikorita: Chikorita is pretty great, it can handle Rock/Grounds, its water resistance are EXTREMELY useful, and it gets rather good moves from Level up. To use Chikorita, i give it cut for Staple Normal Coverage. It has bad early gym matchups(i lucked out against Bugsy and it does nothing against Morty, so-so match up with Pryce), but it is the reason why i manage to defeat Claire, underlevelled.Oh, and Para Hax Body Slam FTW. Meganium is not that bad in Kanto, but it does rather badly against Red.

    End Gamelevel: 51 w/ Body Slam, Cut, Razor Leaf, Light Screen
    Current position: High Tier

    Used Pokemon:
    Spearow: The Boosted Spearow did not do much in my run, but it is the mon i used to beat Chuck's team. Starting at level 10, i grind 3 level or so on it, and use it to handle Morty's Gym. In general, it has good route match ups, and rather easy to grind. It is notable for outspeeding, and solo-ing Venusaur, something that normally takes time. It learns Drill Peck against Koga, at level 40/41.

    End Game level: 52 w/ Drill Peck, Fly, Pursuit, Fury Attack.

    Phanpy
    : Lucked out and got a Phanpy. To be honest. Phanpy is rather pathetic until you get acess to Roll-Out and Headbutt. And then, Phanpy does not become perfectly usable until Donphan. Even then, Donphan has the pathetic movepool of *generic normal type + Roll Out" and EQ at 49(It should be noted that you can catch Donphan below Blackthorn at reasonable level(by GSC underlevelled standard)

    Donphan actualy did not start to become awesome until Kanto, where it can grind off several gyms, and the trainers. So, why use Donphan? Because with Defense Curl, and Roll Outit counters Red's Snorlax thats why(and Snorlax is arguably a massive threat otherwise). Without Donphan, thats 15+ Full Restore to waste against Snorlax, who Donphan can beat with MUCH LESS Full Restore

    Endgame level: 50 w/ Rollout, Defense Curl, Headbutt, EQ
    Current position: Mid Tier

    Pineco: Just here for lulz. Catch at level 10, grind to 11, use Selfdestruct against Miltank. Kill that ****

    Magnemite
    : When you look at it, Magnemite is simmilar to Tauros, except its common. So, your having a Steel/Elec who loses to Rock/Ground, lose to Fire, and can lose to Water Type, and it has pathetic movepool without TM. Low Tier? Nope. Magnemite can get an easilly resonable level despite its bad match up, and it level up easilly. However, it also carries the Typing that allows it to handle SO MUCH THREATS in the whole game. In particular, its Thunder Wave are the key of defeating Lance Level 47 Dragonites, and Red's Espeon. Magnemite did not perform well in battles, but its typing allows it to laugh at many stuff.

    Endgame level: 48 w/ Thundershock, Tri Attack, Thunder Wave, Sonic Boom
    Current Position: At worst High tier.

    Nidoran Male
    : Caught at Goldenrod Park, i used it to handle the park and it become Nidorino. I grind it until 21 and give it Moon Stone after i can use Surf. After that, wins against Jasmine, loses to Chuck's Poliwrath, struggles against Claire, and does Jack agains Pryce. Thankfully it has good route match up to catch its level, and Elemental Punches. Nidoking did not become notable until it defeated Lance DNite with Para Support, and many easy Kanto Gyms. In general, it has 4MS Syndrome. Surf for R/G(Ice Punch is actualy too weak) Thunderpunch for Waters. Fire Punch for some mons that i forgot, Thrash/Something for Normal Coverage, and it can learn EQ for STAB. After Lance, it has decent Kanto Gym Match ups.

    Oh, and it does Jack**** against Red unless you want to easilly handle Pikachu that badly, so i left this thing. Seriously, Nidoking sounds good on papers, and seems to be as good as its RBY version, but its actual performance is not that good.

    Endgame level: 48 w/ Thrash, Ice Punch, Double Kick, Surf
    Current Position: High at best

    Tauros
    : Yeah, this playthrough was to test Tauros in the first place. Put simply, it owns. I used a minimally TM'ed Tauros, as in Strength and Surf. It easilly raises its level with the route 38 Trainer, and i give it Strength. Then, it almost solos Silver in burned tower, actualy beat Morty's Gengar with Surf at level 22, Easilly solo-ed Pryce at 28. It struggles against Jasmine, as my match-up chart above states, and it 2 shot Dragonairs, and get 2shot by Kingdra.

    In Indigo, its high speed and power helped against Jynx and the Lead Xatu, at it handles most of Karen's team. Sadly its rather bad against Lance.

    In Kanto, Tauros can easilly solo like 6/8 of the gyms, and decent against Blue and Brock.

    Against Red, Tauros 2 shot Pikachu who 85/100 of the time did not do any damage in return. after that, it goes downhill. It gets 2HKO by Espeon, but its faster, and 3HKO with Strength. However, it is the best choice to kill Espeon with after Espeon gets paralyzed. It, basically loses to Red's entire team, although being able to survive 2 Flamethrower is pretty cool

    I admit, taking Pursuit is a big mistake, Scary Face is MUCH better. With Scary Face, Charizard become easier after Tauros survived a Flamethrower...

    Endgame level: 53 w/ , Horn Attack, Surf, Strength, Pursuit
    Current Position: High Tier

    Snorlax
    : I admit this thing is a late game addition that does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING so i wont tier this thing. It comes at level 50, and suddenly become my highest leveled pokemon, and i store this thing. That is until Red. Against Red, it gets 2HKO by Rain Dance Surf from Blastoise, and 2HKO by Flamethrower which is exactly what i need to stall the Flamethrower and Surf PP. Hell if you get a Parahax from its Body Slam, you can pretty much win against Charizard and Blastoise

    Endgame level: Level 50 w/ Body Slam, Rollout, Surf, Rest


    So, what is the standard level for fighting Red anyway? If its based on my run, Red was basicallly impossible to beat without at least 55 Full Restore and 33 Revives
  15. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I think you should say what edition are you playing with(Gold, Silver or Crystal). Because you JSND, you are playing Crystal because in which Phanpy has great availability, unlike in Silver in which Phanpy is horrible because it impossible to get it until reaching Blackthorn.

    While I was reading I thought, why this guy says that Phanpy is usable? because I was thinking in Gold/Silver.(Silver really because it doesn't appear in Gold)

    It is not necessary to say what edition are you playing, but helps to understand things while reading.
  16. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Phanpy is good, but his good moves comes too late ... Maybe the dig TM can be useful on him ? Phanpy has good defenses / resistance to rock to counter Miltank's rollout too
  17. JSND

    JSND

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    Its Crystal, where i caught a level 2 Phanpy

    Although Phanpy's movepool are basically :Generic Normal Type Mamalian mk8(read: Take Down, Tackle etc)

    Its early levels are ridiculously bad, it loses to almost anything in a Tackle match up

    Oh, btw it cant learn Dig
  18. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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  19. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    MudSlap STAB is so pathetic that even Headbutt is a bit stronger even x2 supereffective. At least reduces Accuracy and it is like the TM Bullet Seed in RSE, TM that are so useless that, even being unique, they are so awful that almost nothing happens to use them in in-game.

    At least MudSlap is somewhat useful at defeating Geodudes and Magnemites which resist the rest of the few moves that Phanpy can learn.

    As a question, JSND, did you teach Rollout to Phanpy by level or by TM? Because doing one or the other changes too much things(Donphan learns Rollout at 33, almost around the Johto Radio Tower)
  20. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    mud slap is basically a worse version of sand attack imo in terms of utility: the latter can hit flying types.
  21. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    I'm currently playing Crystal with Quilava / Phanpy (and probably Espeon / Gyarados as last with two HM slaves) and damn, Phanpy needs so much babying .... One of the worst movepool ever seriously

    Mudslap hits harder Magnemite & Geodude like NoUserName said. I will add Onyx and every Ghost (Rival or Morty's gym)... Phanpy is the best user of it, since nobody cares of that shit move ... But the Rollout TM becomes available (I don't know if I will use this TM or wait for learning naturally)
  22. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I have just realized that Mud Slap is also useful in Phanpy against Gastly with its awful defense(and x2 to Ground)

    But Gastly may try to Hypnosis Phanpy first due to be faster, I am not sure if using Phanpy against Gastly is a good idea.
  23. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    I think it's a good idea since Ghost is physical and Phanpy has a nice physical defense, and like we said, Gastly is weak to ground and bad defense, so Pahnpy Mud Slap could be an idea ... I'm near Goldenroad, so I will try tomorrow or Sunday if it's worth it.

    Spamming Mud Slap can also help against Miltank I guess
  24. -Eddie-

    -Eddie-

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    I kind of want to put Misdreavus a little higher if only because it auto-kills Red's Snorlax (it learns Perish Song at 46, one level after its caught). Its not great, but I don't think it belongs with Ledyba and Weedle.
  25. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Except Beedrill is still better. Lots of availability and STAB Sludge Bomb with decent speed. Not the best Pokemon for gyms but it certainly does the job elsewhere (which is most of the game).

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