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Hail Damage: 5th Generation Stall

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by jaredz99, Sep 1, 2012.

  1. jaredz99

    jaredz99

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    Hey guys! This is an RMT for a hail stall team I have been working on for some time now. Hail stall has always been my favorite playstyle, following the likes of Delko through 4th generation. I took a break and came into 5th gen somewhat fresh, and was quickly assured by many that stall had no place in the new, offensive environment. This team is my attempt to prove that wrong. So here we go.

    The team:

    [​IMG]

    Abomasnow (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Focus Punch
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake

    This here is my Abomasnow. Abomasnow is clearly an important part of any hail team, being the only fully-involved hail inducer. Unfortunately, Abomasnow also sucks. Like, pretty badly. So this is an attempt to make the best of a poor situation. Lots of people try to make Abomasnow into a general-use pokemon by making him a staller, with SubSeed, or a mixed attacker, or something like that. In my view, it's better to simply acknowledge that this dude is pretty bad and give him a specialized role. Aboma is here to win the weather war. Wood Hammer OHKOs every Tyranitar and Politoed set, and EQ OHKOs most Ninetales. This particular Abomasnow also outspeeds most Tyranitar and most defensive Politoed, causing many to rage when their weather inducer suddenly dies on the first turn. Really, Tyranitar I can understand, but why would you leave Politoed in on Abomasnow? What are you going to do? He's grass type anyway...but hey, I don't complain. Ice Shard is in because it's a good priority move, and with CB it packs quite a punch, meaning that Abomasnow can come into games later and stop a dragon-type from sweeping. Focus Punch isn't used often, mostly when forcing out a defensive pokemon, anticipating a Chansey/Blissey switch, or against pokemon like Empoleon and Ferrothorn who love to stay in and try to set up entry hazards. All-in-all, this is my favorite Abomasnow set I've ever used, and I'm pretty sure I've tried, like...every single one in existence.

    [​IMG]

    Walrein (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Blizzard
    - Toxic

    This might be the most rage-inducing pokemon ever. Walrein can single-handedly beat many poorly constructed offensive teams, and is often good for 2 to 3 free kills in any given game. Some pick on Walrein because he doesn't have a defined role, and doesn't really have outstanding stats, and "he doesn't counter anything", whatever. That's not really the point. Walrein doesn't "set up on X" or "counter Y", but he does ruthlessly punish poor decisionmaking. One wrong move can lead to Walrein taunting you from behind a substitute for the next 20 minutes. So, as most know, Substitute and Protect combine to form the "32 turns of stall" combination. The moves usually suggested for the last slot are Blizzard, Toxic, Surf and Roar. I don't like Surf because Walrein isn't beating any steel pokemon anyway. Toxic I feel is necessary for the abundance of flying and levitating pokemon out there, and Blizzard I find is a strong generic attack that is quite useful in many situations. I'm open to Roar as a concept, but Walrein I think suffers from 4-moveslot syndrome in this instance - replace Blizzard and he's taunt bait, replace Toxic and he fails to stall out pokemon like Gyarados.

    [​IMG]

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Aromatherapy
    - Softboiled
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic

    This is a Blissey, and everybody knows what it does. Heal important pokemon from crippling status effects - check. Sponge special hits - check. Spread toxic to make Walrein's life easier - check. I like Wish as an idea, but I'm not really comfortable with running Wish without Protect, and I can't really drop any of my other moves. Blissey>Chansey because leftovers is necessary with hail damage. Not much to say here, incredibly solid 'mon.

    Those three pokemon basically form my core, I haven't changed them at all and I'm not really planning on it (not because I'm not open to, just because their roles are so crucial and they are pretty much the best/only option to fill each of them). The last three slots are where all the changing comes in. I figure in the last three slots I need:
    Rapid Spin
    Hazards
    A physical tank (preferably multiple)
    Something with a modicum of offensive presence
    Taunt

    The following is my current go at it, but I'll provide a short list of other pokemon that have been tested:
    Tentacruel
    Cloyster
    Hippowdon (without sand stream)
    Donphan
    Ferrothorn
    Claydol
    Reuniclus
    Vaporeon
    Jirachi
    Gastrodon
    Scizor
    Mamoswine
    Latios
    Gliscor
    Nidoqueen
    Cofagrigus
    Togekiss
    Nidoking
    Yeah, I actually lied, that isn't a short list at all. This is not to say that I won't try any of these pokemon again, just to show that I have gone through a lot in picking the current lineup, and these three seem to work pretty well.

    [​IMG]

    Kyurem @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 52 HP / 236 Spd / 220 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Earth Power
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Blizzard

    Kyurem provides the biggest offensive presence on the team, as well as some stallbreaking ability with Substitute and Roost. I prefer this set over more offensive CScarf and CSpecs sets because I think it's more flexible and better fits the overall goal of the team. Blizzard is an outstanding and powerful all-purpose attacking move that puts giant dents into most opponents. Earth Power hits steels and also helps win protracted battles by virtue of lowering opponents SpDef. Substitute is incredibly handy, and also punishes lazy battlers who leave in pokes that can't really touch Kyurem to die, as Kyurem can beat a lot of pokemon when behind a sub that it otherwise couldn't touch, namely, faster dragons. Overall, Kyurem and Mamo are the most obvious choices for hail offense, and I find Kyurem to work pretty damn well with the team so far. In the roles listed above, Kyurem provides the offensive presence I need.

    [​IMG]

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Gyro Ball
    - Volt Switch/Toxic Spikes

    So, of the above traits, Forretress provides a physical tank, Rapid Spin, and the ever-important Stealth Rock. By far the most important role is that of a spinner, as Kyurem, Walrein, and Abomasnow are all severely limited by any sort of hazards. So Forretress stays alive and in reserve as long as there's a possibility that hazards will still come out. Forry also sets up SR, which is useful as a stall team that aims to protract battles and force switches. Gyro Ball is good against faster pokes, particularly dragons locked into Outrage. Volt Switch is simply used to hurt water types and maintain momentum. I don't really use it much, and am considering replacing it with Toxic Spikes. Overall, I really don't like Forretress as a pokemon, because I feel it is incredibly one-dimensional with no offensive presence at all. However, it is undeniably helpful as a defensive pivot, physical tank, and hazard setter/remover.

    [​IMG]

    Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 SDef / 252 HP / 252 Def
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def / 2 Spd
    - Spikes
    - Taunt/Toxic
    - Recover
    - Night Shade/Toxic

    Personally, I think Deoxys-D is incredibly underrated. This dude can take hits from just about anybody. Spikes go here rather than on Forretress as Deoxys is better suited to stay in longer by virtue of addressing a larger number of threats. Taunt is necessary as it helps with stallbreaking and preventing excessive setup. Recover keeps Deo alive as long as possible, and Night Shade is a constant source of damage. With Night Shade and Recover, Deo can take out as many as three offensive pokemon in any given game, as they continuously find that they are unable to muscle through his impressive bulk. This guy is more of an all-purpose counter than anything else. I think a more offensive stallbreaker might be nice here, but I can't think of one that doesn't open holes in the team. Also, I'd love to put Toxic somewhere on this moveset, but I don't know if I can spare Taunt or Night Shade, I'd love some advice here.


    So that's my team. Here are some of my ideas that come from my experience using it.
    Pokes I'd like to try:
    Bronzong. I'd really love to fit him in over Deo or Forretress, but Deo has recovery and Forretress has Rapid Spin.
    Some sort of stallbreaker, like Mew, but again, anything it replaces opens holes.
    I feel like a wish-passer, in particular Jirachi, would be awesome, but I don't know where to fit it in.
    I'd LOVE a different spinner, but everything else has major flaws. Tentacruel can't take a hit, Starmie is too offensive, Claydol sucks, Cloyster compounds other weaknesses. I enjoyed Donphan, and like him on the whole, but I find he isn't powerful enough to be an offensive spinner and isn't defensive enough to take big physical hits.

    Pokes I really don't like (but I'm open to testing if you guys think it's really necessary):
    Toxic Spikes (not technically a pokemon). I used to think this was necessary, but I find that multiple Toxic users more than does the trick. The plethora of spinners and poison types combined with my inability to fit a spinblocker in on the team makes them more of a hassle than a help in most instances.
    Tentacruel. He seems to be the default spinner for hail teams but I just think he's not a good pokemon without Rain Dish. He dies to everything, has no recovery, and his offensive presence is not good enough to redeem himself. Plus, Scald's burn chance conflicts with the Toxic that is necessary for this team. Toxic Spikes was addressed above.
    Gliscor. Maybe I just haven't found the right set, because I feel like he should fit in great, but every time he seems to die incredibly quickly without helping much.

    Threats:
    This is tough, because the biggest threats to this team are contingent on the weather, and winning the weather war. For example, Toxicroak is a bitch to deal with if rain is up. But with hail, it really isn't that much of a problem. Ditto Venusaur and other Chlorophyll abusers. Some pokes that are annoying in all instances:

    Jirachi is just a bitch to deal with in general, but not a gigantic deal.
    I feel like Scizor would be a problem, but I don't see him anymore.
    Genesect is tough, but usually dies with some switching and stalling.
    GENGAR - this guy actually is really annoying, as Blissey can't hurt him. But usually he dies after some stalling or with a Focus Blast miss.
    Keldeo, like Scizor, I feel like he should be a problem but I don't have much experience with him.
    Celebi is pretty annoying. Doesn't really pose a huge threat, but I don't really have anything that shuts it down either.
    Breloom is always a bitch, similar to Jirachi, but not game-ending.

    Most of the games I lose are not because I can't deal with a particular pokemon, but occur through misplays or constant pressure coming from the other team.

    Anyway, that's my team, please help me out! Thanks in advance for the rates!
  2. Qwark

    Qwark

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10
    I really like this team,hail teams are awesome,what do you do vs other weather inducers if by chance abomasnow dies,i see all of your other offense is either unreliable or takes too damn long incase shit happens and aboma dies.

    Unreliable as in once the weather changes
  3. jaredz99

    jaredz99

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    Right, so, the easy answer is make sure Abomasnow doesn't die. This team does heavily rely on winning the weather war, and that's why the Abomasnow set is built to lure in and OHKO opposing weather inducers. However, in the unfortunate event that an opposing weather wins out, there is still hope. The team's focus switches from setting up Walrein and using Kyurem to clean up, to spreading Toxic and forcing as many switches as possible. Walrein is still valuable to spread Toxic and whack things with Blizzard. Basically, I just try to get up all my hazards, threaten a sweep with Kyurem, and force a lot of switches.
  4. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo formerly Dr Ciel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,214
    Hey there, I got your PM, so I'm going to rate this team. Overall, it looks like a solid hail team, which abuses Kyurems sweeping capabilities. I have a few suggestions you could try that can make this team better. Firstly, I suggest that you use an Mixed Expert Belt set on Abomasnow instead of your current Choice Band set. With a mixed set, you can hit a whole ton of important Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Scizor, and others. Next, I see your team has a huge weakness to Terrakion, as it hits your whole team for severe damage and you have no way of handling its onslaught. To help patch up the Terrakion weakness, I suggest that you use a Gliscor over your current Deoxys-D. Now, while it may seem odd to run Gliscor on a hail team, it is quite effective in stopping common threats to many hail teams such as the after mentioned Terrakion, Conkeldurr and Lucario just to name a few. Well, that's all I really have to say for this team. I really hoped that my advice helped you. Again, very cool team. Have fun and good luck!

    Sets (open)
    [​IMG]
    Abomasnow @ Expert Belt Lv. 100 -- Snow Warning
    Nature: Lonely - EVs: 252 Atk / 112 SAtk / 144 Spd
    Earthquake
    Hidden Power [Fire]
    Ice Shard
    Wood Hammer

    [​IMG]
    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb Lv. 100 -- Poison Heal
    Nature: Impish - EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 236 Spd
    Earthquake
    Toxic
    Taunt
    Roost


    ~Dr Ciel~
  5. jaredz99

    jaredz99

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    Thanks for the rate. Expert Belt probably retains most of the good parts of the current Abomasnow while adding some flexibility, so I'm excited about that. While Forretress and Deo-D have given me some breathing room against Terrakion, I'm willing to try out Gliscor again in that spot. I am slightly concerned about the loss of spikes though. Do you think I should slap Spikes on Forry over Volt Switch? Thanks again.
  6. Aquaaa

    Aquaaa

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    58
    Hey.

    I would suggest using Toxic spikes more than Spikes on Forretress since this is a stall team Toxic Spikes can benefit you greatly with your ability to stall. I would also use Wish for Blissey instead of your current set, since only one of your pokemon have reliable recovery (Kyurem) and if you have Gliscor I guess that counts too, the wish passing can greatly aid your team, you can also still use Heal Bell so that you can heal your team.
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Blissey @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 118 HP / 252 Def / 138 SDef
    Calm Nature
    -Wish
    -Heal Bell
    -Toxic
    -Protect/Seismic Toss

    I would also recommend that if you choose to use the Expert Belt that you use Substitute>Earthquake so that your Focus Punch is protected and you can still hit whatever you want safely (mainly Tyranitar) however the set posted above is just as good as a lure. Also Gliscor can greatly help you with a fighting resist, something you are lacking at the moment, so I would strongly suggest that, the set posted above can work fine.
  7. jaredz99

    jaredz99

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    Like I said in the RMT, while Toxic Spikes sounds good on paper, in practice I don't feel it's all that useful. I will try out the Wish Blissey set though, looks good and hopefully the loss of Seismic Toss won't hurt too much. For Abomasnow, the Expert Belt set doesn't have Focus Punch, so its Wood Hammer/Ice Shard/HP Fire/EQ, no Substitute for me.
  8. Qwark

    Qwark

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10
    This,spikes is guaranteed damage on anything it hits while the whole point of using toxic spikes becoming non existant when you see your opponent has 4 pokemon that either completely avoid it,are immune to them or even remove them.
  9. jaredz99

    jaredz99

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    Yeah, seems like more often than not the team will include Tornadus/Thundurus/Latios/Gengar/Toxicroak/Ferrothorn, and all of a sudden Toxic Spikes doesn't even matter for the entire battle.
  10. generic name

    generic name

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    tspikes do fail against some teams, so you could try having them but not using them in all matches. on the other hand, that could be a waste of a slot. you don't have a spinblocker, which is very important for stall.

    A major issue for you is type synergy.
    You don't have a fire resist despite having abomasnow and forry.
    You have 3 ice types on the same team.
    You have 4 fighting weak pokes and only one resistance (and furthermore, a common combination is fighting/dark or fighting/ghost, which smashes deoxys-d. Magic guard alakazam with psyshock, shadow ball, and focus blast destroys most of your team)

    Id suggest chandelure for a normal hail team, but since you are using stall i'd use sp def heatran. If you already have sr on forry you can run protect/roar/toxic/lava plume. Heatran's only recovery is leftys, but it has flash fire, and laughs at jirachi and genesect who annoy you so much.

    Not only do you need a spinblocker, spinblockers have a ghost type which are immune to fighting. Jellicent is the best choice for a stall team, especially for yours, as it resists fire and is immune to fighting.

    Wishpassing on blissey would be useful if you get sp def tran, and imo having toxic on blissey is redundant with all your other toxicers.

    gliscor is actually common on hail stall (although hail stall is not common) and it might be good over deoxys-d, although i feel like you really need the spikes from that slot.

    Imo, most of your problems stem from starting with 3 ice types and then trying to make a team from there. aboma/walrein/kyurem provide you with no hazards/no spinning/no spinblocking/no aromatherapy/some subtoxicstalling. The rest of your team has to do all of that with only 3 slots, which you really can't do. What i would change would be to replace walrein and kyurem with jellicent and heatran. In the rmt you mentioned that you didn't care that walrein doesnt actually counter anything or support the team, as long as it can toxic stall. Kyurem is similar, except that it does have the merit of beating heatran. The thing is, you can't choose 3 pokes you like and ignore everything else, then expect to be able to complete your team. All in all, change at LEAST 1 ice type.

    Have fun with hail stall.
  11. Me So Shiny

    Me So Shiny

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    30
    You say that you leave Abomasnow in on opposing weather leads but a mixed Ttar OHKO your Abomasnow every time with fire blast, even with flamethrower they knock it out, Ttars never run flamethrower I'm just saying Fire Blast is overkill. And once he is gone your team falls apart.
  12. Clure

    Clure

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    Very well presented team! I really like the whole concept of it, And I'm sure it works well. As other people have mentioned, Fire and fighting are weaknesses. And even if you don't like it, Toxic spikes is amazingly useful on stall, and worth a try.
  13. jaredz99

    jaredz99

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    While I respect the rates that people are giving, I feel like a lot is coming from people who have never played with hail stall or anything like this team before. For example, Me So Shiny, you said Fire Blast OHKOs - that's true, but so does Stone Edge, Abomasnow doesn't beat Tyranitar because it can take a hit, but because it's faster than everything but Choice Scarf and OHKOs with Wood Hammer.

    @generic_name - I didn't take three ice types because I liked them. Abomasnow is key for any hail team, Walrein is a monster in hail, and Kyurem is quite good abusing hail as an attacker. As I said in the RMT, I'm fully open to changing Kyurem, but removing Walrein sort of removes anything about the team that makes it hail-unique. Heatran does seem good and I'll test him over Kyurem, I also see your problem with Forry with the fire weakness, I agree and I absolutely hate Forry I'm really looking for another spinner that will work for me.
  14. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,122
    3 ice types is the standard for most successful hail teams so don't change that.

    I would probably replace Deoxys-D with Tentacruel as it provides much needed fire and steel resistances and the ability to lay Toxic Spikes.

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