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Hail-discussing a potential suspect

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Silvershadow234, Jun 23, 2013.

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  1. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]

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    Hi. So as many of you know, some people would like to see a suspect test on hail. Seeing as hail discussion in the np thread turned into a flamewar rather quickly then stopped, I thought it would be a good idea to have a dedicated thread for hail and its impact on the metagame. In this thread, supporters of hail suspect should be trying to convince the opposite side that hail is a suspect, and vice versa. Remember to stay on topic i.e. don't start talking about moltres being broken. This is a thread discussing hail as a potential suspect, and nothing else. If your post is not relevant it will be deleted.

    Why I think hail should be a suspect:

    1)Walrein-this mon is pretty damn ridiculous. If it gets a sub up, you lose a mon, unless you have something like klinklang or cinncino which, guess what, are rlly ez to wall. It can be insanely bulky both physically and specially-of course, while it can't do both at the same time, this means that sometimes your pokes won't be able to stop rein getting up a sub and your pokes will stop rein getting up a sub, and you don't know before it is too late. Here are some calcs for reference:
    Show Hide
    252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 226-268 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO after weather
    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 220-261 (51.88 - 61.55%) -- 59.77% chance to 2HKO after weather
    252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 322-382 (75.94 - 90.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 152-182 (35.84 - 42.92%) -- 3.59% chance to 3HKO after weather
    252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 218-260 (51.41 - 61.32%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after weather
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 372-440 (87.73 - 103.77%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 252-299 (59.43 - 70.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 254-300 (59.9 - 70.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 330-393 (77.83 - 92.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 324-384 (76.41 - 90.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 255-301 (60.14 - 70.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 283-338 (66.74 - 79.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    2) Residual damage-I don't think that this is broken on it's own, but it is certainly a pain to deal with, especially combined with entry hazards. Obviously, it stops leftovers recovery, making pokemon such as lanturn and slowking so much easier to wear down. Pokemon without lefties, ofc, lose 6.25% of their HP each turn, which certainly adds up over time-for example, protect snover can easily strip 50% off of an entei / emboar if it's carrying protect, with 25% of that damage being down to hail over 4 turns. This isn't game breaking on its own, but it does make some pokemon just a bit more powerful, and it means your hail checks have to deal with losing 6.25% every turn, or get nothing if holding leftovers.

    3) Offensive ice types-glaceon and rotom-f are the main pokemon here. Specs glaceon is insanely hard to switch into-the only pokemon that can switch into it with a moveset of blizzard / HP fire / shadow ball and win is HP fire cryogonal and specially defensive magneton. Lanturn looks like a decent check, but is 3HKO'd after sr iirc and can't do anything back(scald does around 30% I think). Rotom-f is in a similar boat, in that it has incredibly few counters with it's subsplit set. Again, HP fire cryogonal and magneton are basically the only answers. Scarf sets of both of these are also good, and while they do have far more counters, both are deadly against more offensive teams-glaceon is still very strong thanks to 130 special attack, and rotom-f has STAB thunderbolt to beat some common hail checks such as kabutops and moltres.

    Remember, this thread doesn't mean hail is getting suspected at all, this thread is merely to explore the possibility of suspecting it, and if we as a community do decide its worth a test, how we should go about it.

    Now, I've given my point of view across and I'd like to here yours. Do you think hail is worthy of a suspect or not? Please share your opinions on hail and its impact on the metagame :)
  2. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    I rarely encounter hail in RU and I don't think it is broken. Stealth rock hits all of the mentioned pokemon very hard and steel types shit all over walrein (looking at Escavalier, mostly). Additionally, Hariyama can run thick fat and phaze Walrein with whirlwind (or run a guts set with arm thrust). It also learns bullet punch.
  3. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    A well built hail team is incredibly hard to stop. Usage shouldn't be a factor in a suspect discussion. Overwhelming blizzspam is very hard to stop and Stallrein is.. urgh. I used to run random stuff like Destiny Bond Misdreavus to stop it (which is, looking back a horrible counter and needs suprise value and Walrein to use Ice Beam) Once your hail counter is gone, which is not hard to do, since well built hail teams dedicate at least 2 team slots for anti-anti-hail mons. I don't like it in the meta and i am thankful that it is not used much at this point.
  4. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    I don't know about stall, but as an offensive player I really don't think offense teams have much trouble in general with hail teams just by nature of the team. Especially for offense I think it is fairly easy to keep Sr + 1 layer of spikes for the majority of the game and hail is just worn down so quickly with those hazards. Using offense, walrein has practically no opportunities to set up a sub and it usually just becomes dead weight for the other team.

    For example, just to test how good walrein was I battled silvershadow as he used a hail stall team as I used a vigoroth offense team that really didnt even take hail into consideration.
    Heres the team btw:
    Show Hide
    Vigoroth @ Eviolite
    Trait: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
    Careful Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Return
    - Slack Off
    - Taunt

    Rotom @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Substitute
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Absol @ Life Orb
    Trait: Super Luck
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naughty Nature
    - Pursuit
    - Sucker Punch
    - Fire Blast
    - Night Slash

    Carracosta @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge
    - Waterfall

    Hitmonlee (M) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Mach Punch
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake

    Roselia @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
    Calm Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Rest
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Spikes
    And silvershadow's walrein was not being able to set up a sub all game and I was able to keep SR up all game. (I would've had a layer of spikes but he froze my rose :() So with everyone talking about having to carry "counters" to walrein if your running offense u dont need a counter. If your team is built well enough it really shouldn't be much a problem because of the amount of offensive pressure u put on it. I didn't save the replay but I only lost because of a 50-50 play at the end. And keep in mind this team didn't even take hail into consideration really and I still managed to beat a hail stall team.

    I haven't played many offensive Hail teams either but there are just so many threats to it such as, klinklang, durant, escav, unburden lee, aggron, etc. that I really don't see how threatening it is compared to any other playstyle. And in the next tier shift even qwilfish is dangerously close to leaving which is hail's main check to durant and it sets up tspikes.

    I just feel like hail is just another play style and considering its best abusers are weak to SR and considering hazards are fairly easy to keep up I don't see the big deal with it. There are just too many threats that can beat hail in general and a well built offensive team should not have any trouble with walrein just by nature of the play style.

    Edit: After playing SV with his haxy hail team I still think that a well built offense team can beat hail stall although walrein is indeed a dumb mon :*(. Though if qwilfish ends up leaving the tier then hail becomes much worse
  5. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    As a more defensively-oriented player, I can say that a well-built offensive hail team can be incredibly difficult to stop. There are so few solid speciallly-defensive Ice-type resists in the tier; Slowking, Cryogonal, and Escavalier are the only ones that come to mind that can realistically handle strong Ice attacks continually and fit onto a wide variety of teams, and out of those three, Slowking and Cryogonal get Pursuit-trapped like no one's business, and Escavalier can easily be removed by a surprise Hidden Power Fire. Hail also has so many good hail abusers that are capable of doing so much damage if you lack multiple strong specially defensive Ice-resists as well: Choice Specs Glaceon's Blizzards just tears right through anything that isn't a specially defensive Ice-resist, and has Baton Pass to bring in a Pursuit trapper against Slowking / Cryogonal. Subsplit Rotom-F's absurdly good STAB coverage also makes it very difficult to deal with, since Slowking gets 2HKOed by Thunderbolt, Escavalier will get worn down by it, and Cryogonal can't do anything back bar Hidden Power Fire. It is just very difficult to deal with these Pokemon without using dedicated, niche counters imo.

    Then there's also the fact that Walrein itself pretty much just tears through heavy offensive teams not carrying dedicated counters to it once it gets a single sub up. It's not really hard at all to set up a Substitute with Walrein at all either; Walrein is so ridiculously bulky that it can even potentially set up in the face of stuff like Choice Specs Moltres; it's just that bulky. Yeah, granted offensive teams do manage to put the pressure on Hail so that the opportunity to set up a Substitute aren't often, but there is almost always an opportunity to set up a Substitute vs offense, whether it be on a Pokemon that only hits Walrein for neutral, such as, say, Moltres or Typhlosion, or against a Choice-locked Pokemon like Rotom-C into Hidden Power Fire, or even against CB Druddigon Earthquake, simply due to Walrein's bulk. Because of that, unlike what double01 says, you absolutely have to have a solid answer against Walrein on offense, simply because if you don't, once it manages to pull up a Substitute, you're going to be in a dreadful position. Walrein even has the ability to rip through defensive teams with Toxic Spikes support as well, and since it's so easy to get an opportunity to set up a Substitute vs slower teams, a good hail team with Walrein and Toxic Spikes is very, very difficult to effectively deal with.

    Idk, I feel that between the residual damage of Hail, and its incredibly good abusers, it honestly is just too strong for the metagame, and should at the very least deserve to be suspected.
  6. Explorer

    Explorer

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    I personally think it is not hail itself and the BlizzSpamming that are broken, but rather a specific threat: Walrein. BlizzSpamming is manageable in the sense that excessive BlizzSpamming leads to poor team synergy. Defensive teams should be able to take attacks and stall out the BlizzSpammers by means such as Toxic + Recover, Pressure stalling, etc. Offensive teams should be able to overpower the BlizzSpammers and kill them off with Pokemon such as Emboar and Escavalier.

    Really, I feel as if hail, particularly defensive hail teams, are overly centered around Walrein, whom even with a Stealth Rock weakness, is difficult to KO. It can take an attack, Sub, and Protect, back at the health it was at with an intact Substitute, while the other team's health is slowly deteriorated, especially when Walrein gets to use Toxic. Ice Body makes it too hard to stop Walrein without one of a few things (some of which are listed here):

    Taunt
    Poisoning Walrein with Toxic before it can use Substitute
    Multi-hit moves (Cinccino)
    Escavalier
    Putting Walrein to sleep
    Removing Hail by means of another weather (Sandstorm works well if you ask me, allowing counterstall [Cradily] or a countersweep [Stoutlnd])

    While hail is a very powerful offensive threat with Pokemon such as Rotom-F and Glaceon firing off a parade of Blizzards, the defensive threat is much more irritating and harder to work around. Thus I suggest we do not suspect hail, but suspect Walrein for a ban.
  7. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    Well, considering we've heard from an offensive-minded player (Double01) and a defensive-minded player (SV) I guess I'll chime in as more of a balance/bulky offense player:

    For me, offensive Hail teams are relatively easy to deal with. I can typically keep SR up the entire match at minimum and maybe even get a layer or 2 of Spikes if I play perfectly. That said, SR is really all I need to manage an offensive Hail team. If you have a secondary lead with U-turn (Mesprit, Uxie, etc.) it's pretty easy (imo) to stop Snover from denting your main Blizzard resist (I have 2, so I'll just U-turn into my secondary resist to preserve my main one) Then, there will be a point where you can get SR up depending on who your SR user is. From there, you just need to be wise. Only send in your primary Blizzard resist when you absolutely need to. A sacrifice is not always the worst play as it can often times limit the damage something like Glaceon and Rotom-F can do to your team. (Scarf Braviary can also outspeed the more uncommon Scarf Glaceon to prevent it from going on a cleaning spree)
    I haven't faced many defensive Hail teams, but I find that they are a bit more difficult to deal with considering my playstyle. Walrein is a pretty big hinderance and really makes using stuff like Ferroseed much riskier since Ferroseed and others can provide an easy switch-in opportunity for Walrein. Otherwise, the same routine applies. Limit the damage Snover does to my main Blizzard resist and get SR up as soon as the opportunity arises. Then it's a matter of trying to get up layers of Spikes to drop stuff into KO range. (much easier said than done)

    tl;dr defensive Hail teams are harder for balance teams to deal with than offensive hail teams are imo.
  8. Level 51

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    Hi, I'd just like to point out that

    (a) Escavalier doesn't counter any Walrein with Surf (as I found out during my RUPL match against Honus),
    (b) Walrein is faster than Amoonguss (the main sleeper in RU) and Tangrowth (the 2nd biggest one) and can deal serious damage to them with Blizzard, and
    (c) 252 Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 232 HP / 252 Def Walrein: 245-300 (58.47 - 71.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I'll have to think about Hail as a whole though, it certainly doesn't seem that broken or that unbroken...
  9. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    I agree that Hail teams when built correctly many teams and them not being very common (like 5/100 battles) only adds to their danger because teams really are not putting any thought into countering them. Walrein is also.... yea.


    I think it at least deserves a suspect mianly because of the fact of how powerful many pokemon become and also how little prepared most teams are because there are very few counters to hail teams.
  10. -Sparkbeat-

    -Sparkbeat-

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    When running offense, Hail has been quite easy to stop in my experience. As long as you keep pressure and don't allow stallrein to get a substitute up, then you should be fine. If you can keep Stealth Rocks up, and not allow the opponent to spread damage to you whole team, winning is quite easy. A simple Give and Take strategy works well. Sacking a worthless member to a Blizzard spam so you can steal momentum is sometimes necessary to beat hail. Also, hard hitting special attackers or Agrron and Gallade can flat out demolish standard hail teams. A typical hail team is Snover/Wallrein/Rotom-F or Glaceon/Escavalier/Slowking/Filler. Choice specs Mesprit and Sceptile can hit everything for SE damage (Bar Escavalier for Mesprit and if Sceptile has HP Rock), Aggron gets a KO whenever he comes in (Against Rotom-F or Escavalier locked into Blizzard or Megahron, respectively) Gallade can set up an SD and outspeed everything besides the scarfers and hit everything for tons of damage, unless you're still running Shadow Suck :/. Toxic Spikes also make hail teams hurt, since they harm Stallrein and Slowking so much. Basically, Hail is easy to handle for offense, but Balance and Stall will have trouble with it. I personally don't think its worth suspecting, and I don't think we should suspect anything until we get the next round of Pokes from UU.
  11. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    I just wanted to point out here that preventing Walrein from getting a Substitute is much easier said than done, even when running offense. The amount of powerful hits can walrein can survive with more than 25% health is pretty surprising and astounding to be honest, and i've had games where i thought i had it won, but a walrein somehow survived something like a STAB Thunderbolt or Giga Drain and set up a Substitute, essentially losing me the game right there. Walrein can even set up a Substitute on Life Orb Moltres if it comes in after a KO, which is pretty impressive given how strong Moltres is. Something else interesting to note that Walrein isn't "as" vulnerable to Stealth Rock as it looks when compared to most other Pokemon that are weak to the move thanks to its ability, as Ice Body will essentially heal off half the Stealth Rock damage taken at the end of the turn when switching in, and after a protect, pretty much all the HP lost from switching into Stealth Rock has been restored, making it much harder to wear down than it appears to be. Lastly, from my experience, if you have five offensive Pokemon that can prevent Walrein from immediately setting up a Substitute, and even just one that does, you'll still be pretty vulnerable to Walrein unless you play absolutely perfectly, as sending that one Pokemon Walrein can grab a Substitute on is always a big risk considering how much trouble can cause offense (or any team really) once it gets that crucial Substitute up.

    I'm sort of undecided on whether i think hail as a whole deserves a suspect test at the moment (although walrein is pretty nuts), so i'll try and refrain from making too many posts here aside from this one unless and until i build a solid opinion. But i'd like to make sure everyone remembers one thing. If we decide to suspect hail, you can't treat it as an individual Pokemon, you have to remember that hail is an entire playstyle, and that there are some differences between discussing the power of a pokemon and a playstyle, the same goes for checks and counters too, you really can't say a single Pokemon 100% counters an entire playstyle imo.
  12. Hakumen

    Hakumen Hot grill
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    After using Hail a lot, I would give my thoughts about Offensive Hail that I find not deserving enough discussion but that I find broken.

    Rotom-Frost and Glaceon are really hard to deal with.
    The former has acess to BoltBeam in STAB, meaning unlike other Hail abusers, it can't be checked by most hail checks like Slowking, Entei, Kabutops, Emboar etc... and has acess to a really strong Blizzard. The Scarf is a big threat for Offense because it is quite fast, meaning it can outspeed pretty much anything and is strong, it can OHKO frail threats like Cinccino and 2HKO most other threats like Entei which won't last long because they are going to lose a lot by residual damages. The SubSplit is also really threatening for Offense, despite a bit less than the Scarf and especially Stall. You'll have to usualy sacrifice something only to break the Sub against Offense and against Stall, the lack of counters appart from HP Fire/Fighting Cryogonal which isn't good on Stall and Lanturn whcih isn't far from the 2HKO which won't be hard because of residual damages will make Rotom-F really troublesome.
    Glaceon is also a really big threat. The Specs is the set I used the most. With it, Glaceon has an incredible power, being able to 2HKO anything bar Cryogonal in which case you can baton pass on something like Escavalier or simply KO if you have max damages roll. I used it along with Scarf Rotom-Frost and they can weaken checks like Lanturn for the other. Scarf Glaceon is also a big threat especially against Offense, it outspeeds everything without any boost until Swellow which sadly outspeeds Glaceon and is threatening with its powerful Blizzard thanks to its excellent special attack.
    These threats are especially threatening because residual damages and the fact that Snover can weaken principal Hail checks will make their check easier to KO.

    TL;DR: I find Offensive Hail broken because Rotom-Frost is really threatening against Offense(especially Scarf but SubSplit less despite being still threatening) and Stall(SubSplit can 2HKO pretty much everything bar Defensive Cryogonal which can't do soething back). Glaceon is also really hard to deal with, the Specs can 2HKO nearly everything and the Scarf is fast enough to be troublesome against Offense. Plus, their main checks are going to die quicly to residual damages and Snover.

    Here are calcs showing Specs Glaceon incredible power:
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 243-287 (78.38 - 92.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 298-351 (55.8 - 65.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Bouffalant: 337-397 (91.08 - 107.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 249-294 (63.19 - 74.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 261-307 (97.38 - 114.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Crustle: 393-463 (116.61 - 137.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Cryogonal: 166-196 (48.39 - 57.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Drapion: 280-331 (81.63 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 900-1060 (348.83 - 410.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 288-339 (111.62 - 131.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Dusknoir: 246-291 (83.67 - 98.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and weather



    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Emboar: 227-267 (62.88 - 73.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 204-240 (50.37 - 59.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 352-416 (102.62 - 121.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 187-221 (55.48 - 65.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 380-448 (130.13 - 153.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 286-337 (103.24 - 121.66%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Gallade: 211-250 (62.24 - 73.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 159-187 (36.8 - 43.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and weather




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 216-254 (82.44 - 96.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 288-340 (100.69 -

    118.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 143-168 (35.66 - 41.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Magmortar: 168-198 (56.56 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 336-396 (138.84 - 163.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Magneton: 152-180 (50 - 59.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather




    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 309-364 (84.89 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 369-435 (96.34 - 113.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO after weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Omastar: 214-252 (62.2 - 73.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 174-206 (45.31 - 53.64%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 454-535 (115.22 - 135.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 259-306 (77.54 - 91.61%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 216-256 (54.96 - 65.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather


    248+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Spiritomb: 220-259 (72.36 - 85.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
  13. Celever

    Celever

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    Hail is definitely not broken in my opinion, defensive teams put a stop to hail easily with enough special bulk, pokemon like Slowking, Rotom and Misdreavus stop the offensive hail teams easily, whilst Rotom and Misdreavus can use taunt (I use taunt on my Misdreavus) to nullify Walrein. While well-built hail teams are incredibly hard to stop, that has nothing to do with the hail itself. Hail is only the play-style the well-built hail teams choose to use, it's exactly the same as a well-built HO, offensive, balanced, bulkily offensive, VolTurn or full stall team, any well-built team is hard to stop.
    This tier also has several counters to hail, that should really only be left out on HO or some offensive teams, which should be putting enough offensive pressure onto the opposing hail team to stop them utilizing the undeniably best hail abuser, Walrein, anyway. While the scarfers are more annoying, they are mostly frail, and due to running a scarf don't get boosted power in their attacks letting the bulkier pokemon take them out anyway. Something like Glaceon also has a chance to be running choice specs, in which case it is simply too slow to do much damage to your opponent's team without a good pivot anyways. That is one of the main reasons I see wrong with Hakumen's calcs - sure, that's a lot of damage, but it's utilizing choice specs Glaceon of all things, who is not effective in a full game. I find many of my teams end up with a hail counter without even considering needing a counter in my team-building, pokemon such as Magneton or really any specially-defensive ghost type usually are on my team before I look for any weaknesses the team might have, thus showing how easily-counterable hail really is. If a suspect about hail does go forth, it should really be a Walrein suspect, not a hail suspect, since offensive hail is far less broken.
  14. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Not sure if hail as a whole is broken, but Snover—or at the very least Walrein—should be suspected. Walrein is just absolutely ridiculous in the tier. Once it sets up, it's pretty much unstoppable. Here's what beats Walrein once it sets up:
    • Clefable
    • Overcoat Escavalier (Non CB I think? Walrein can just PP stall Iron Head / Megahorn)
    • Rest Spiritomb, Rest Poliwrath, Rest Magneton (turns the match into a PP stall war)
    • Klinklang
    • Cinccino
    • SubCM Uxie (if Walrein doesn't have Roar)
    That's all I can think of at the moment. Other stuff you can think of is probably similar to what's listed (Rest mons and maybe Sigilyph). It is very easy to take out the offensive Pokemon that deal with Walrein; Cinccino gets worn down super easily by residual damage, while Klinklang has low longevity because of Substitute and gets walled easily by Walrein's teammates, Qwilfish especially. Qwilfish is such a good teammate because it sets up Toxic Spikes, which protect Walrein from having to use Toxic and risking a break in Substitute; it also sets up Spikes, which can wear down Escavalier to the point where it gets KOed by Walrein's Surf. Qwilfish also removes Toxic Spikes for Walrein.

    You might think that Walrein is not broken because it needs support from Snover and Qwilfish, but I think that can be overlooked. It's as easy as sending Snover in and getting up one layer of Toxic Spikes. The game is pretty much over at that point unless you send in Clefable, at which point the game will be lasting for 100 turns.

    You also might think that it is easy to prevent Walrein from setting up. In reality, you need to have a Pokemon in that can deal 50% or 75% (depending on if SR was on the field) to prevent it from getting a Sub. This is nearly impossible when facing a mon with 110 HP, base 90 defenses, and a decent typing. Double01 gave me the permission to post this log because it shows how easily Walrein can set up. If you skip to turn 14, you will see Walrein setting up on a Sceptile. (Walrein wouldn't have had to switch out for the rest of the game if I didn't misclick, haha).

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oriserver-ru-32545

    So in conclusion, if Walrein is played well, the match will either end in a complete victory for Walrein or whoever loses PP first. This is not how battles should be ending imo.

    Now onto Snover. The problem with Snover is that it gives the user a full-game advantage, being the only auto weather mon in the tier. The only way to get rid of this is to use manual weather through Sunny Day or Rain Dance, which are very difficult to fit on a Pokemon's movepool, as almost every RU Pokemon struggles with four-moveslot syndrome. It doesn't matter if you think "Snover is useless." It provides the win condition by just being sent in, and there isn't much available to turn the tables. In summary, what I think about Snover right now is that it is so powerful because it enables Walrein to be broken, but BlizzSpam is much easier to handle. However, my opinion could change as I'll explain in the next paragraph. In this case, I would prefer to ban Walrein instead of Snover. I know that Choice Specs Glaceon 2HKOes almost everything with Blizzard, but the same can be said about Pokemon like CB Druddigon and CB Aggron. Their Speed hinders their performance: they basically have to find a free switch-in opportunity to be able to deal a lot of damage, which is hard considering the amount of offensive teams and Pokemon in RU. The other case depends on the Ice Body users not named Walrein.

    Other Pokemon such as Glaceon and Vanilluxe can do the exact same thing as Walrein. The only difference is their stats, which is why we should be focusing on how easy it is for them to set up a Substitute. I don't think it's as easy for them as it is Walrein, but I haven't tested or seen any of the other Pokemon being used. However if they are as effective as Walrein, then hail should probably be banned as a whole (or Ice Body?).

    Why didn't we notice this before? The obvious reason is that no one uses hail (as shown by the usage stats). Hail stayed in the tier because it was largely unexplored during the last vote. No one used it, and SubProtect strategies were especially rarely used. I remember some people saying that hail had undiscovered potential, and I think that this time we should be looking at the Ice Body mons instead of BlizzSpammers. The only way we will reach a proper conclusion is if more people use this strategy. If you want to get high on the ladder, use Walrein. there was too much to say in this post so i probably forgot something, sorry
  15. Hakumen

    Hakumen Hot grill
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    I agree that Walrein is the most broken part of Hail, with the right support, it can be really hard to deal with and that defensive/balanced hail is better most of the time. However, I find Offensive Hail broken because counters/checks to Blizzspamm are going to die quickly with residual damages and snover. You're right when you say that Glaceon is slow but well-used, against something slower or something that can't OHKO Glaceon(Glaceon is quite bulky), you're going to do at least a kill especially when checks like Entei are going to die quickly, from experience, Entei can't take a Blizzard from Glaceon if it leads against Snover. It's right that things like CB Druddigon and CB Aggron will also do at least one kill but unlike them, its counters are easy to weaken by residual damages and Snover for Fire-types.

    About Walrein, DittoCrow said pretty much everything about it. If you have a Tspikes setter like Qwilfish or Roselia, you can outstall a lot of things appart from mons mentionned above. Speaking of them, Klinklang and Cinccino are really to wall for hail stalls and will die quickly especially the latter so by playing well, Walrein can easily avoid them. Clefable is probably the most annoying, not only for Walrein but for a whole hail stall because of Magic Guard. The other can lose by PP stalling and SubCMUxie to Roar although it is quite rare on Walrein.

    After, I also agree with DittoCrow, banning Walrein means that SubProtect Glaceon and then maybe Vanilluxe will do the same. That's why banning Hail(or Snover) is the best solution because even if not everyone find Offensive Hail, it means that we won't have troubles with Ice Body's users.
  16. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky Bounce!
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    I disagree, hail isn't broken. It just has advantages over other weather and dedicated strategies, i.e. tickroom, due to the clear boon of having an auto-inducer. Hail isn't broken just due to its low usage people just don't prepare for it, a well prepared team can deal with hail affectively. Walrein is undoubtedly the nearest thing to being broken toxic stall, hazards, and strong super effective hits are the best way around it. Explorer mentioned sandstorm the required set up turn allows for the setter to be toxic'd and then if snover is still alive it can if it could be brought in safely the sandstorm setter could be attempted to be staled down and hail reset. If people continue to prepare for hail in the way it is now, not dealing with Walrein effectively, and hails usage increases then it will be deemed as broken. There are things that can ohko Walrein especially after stealth rocks due to the fact that they mostly carry mixed bulk or by attacking it on the side it isn't invested in. Something being broken and something being unprepared for are different thing.
  17. VN.

    VN. im african and you know i got hyenus
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    hail stall or hail balance like dittocrow had is balanced by the fact that its extremely hit or miss, defensive hail simply can't fit everything it needs to in 6 slots, leaving it open to a good amount of stuff, dittocrow's team has no spinner or dedicated special wall like a clefable while other hail stall teams out there are weak to durant or escavalier because they don't have qwilfish. i don't think walrein is broken either, sure it's hard to stop, but an idea that predicates offense is that you overwhelm the opponent so pokemon that are threatening end up being mitigated. i've had to let my walrein take a hit from moltres just to get a necessary toxic on it in certain matches with my hail team, it was the best move for me to make since my old snover set didn't have a sash, but my opponents with moltres was still able to make walrein less off a factor in the match because of offensive pressure. also dittocrow you forgot to mention that walrein is at a pretty big risk to try and sub on anything that might even possibly have a status move, even paralysis really hurts its ability to function
    Spirit likes this.
  18. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold .R
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    [​IMG]
    en llamas (Moltres) @ Life Orb / Charcoal
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Sunny Day
    - SolarBeam
    - Roost / Morning Sun

    This set is pretty scary for hail teams and for more defensive teams oriented, wrecks hail since Sunny Day quit Hail while makes useless the fire checks that runs hail teams like slowking, regirock and sometimes wallrein etc, Moltres wrecks them. Your best chance is play around with snover + them (fire checks) because Solar beam which is very risky since you can just lost in very early the game if you lost your Snover which many times is dedicated like suicide lead or using stuff like Flareon / Lampent which are uncommon on Hail teams, with this set is a example i can add more example if are needed lately. I dont know if hail is broken or not at the moment but i'm pretty sure that people is so weak to Hail teams since they arent preparated to play against hail teams or just using pretty basic threats such CB entei which cant beat solid Hail teams and teams that are easy stalled by stuff like Stallrein. The problem is if we have to overprepared against Hail teams like myself in some SPL battles.
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  19. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325

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    Being a fairly non-standard hail user, I suppose my opinion on the matter may not be very experience-based lol. Considering that hail is a significant part of the RU metagame, I have come across a surprising amount of teams that seem to completely disregard hail altogether. I believe that hail is not broken because many of the top metagame threats deal with it nicely. Uxie can be a reliable lead against Snover, Slowking takes blizzards like a champion while shrugging off the residual damage, Entei, Druddigon, Escavalier, Emboar, and all other offensive fire types are just huge threats in general, and the lack of an extraordinarily fast and powerful blizzspammer makes offensive hail teams manageable.

    It's also worth mentioning that Snover can be a bit of a dead weight if played around correctly. There are a number of common leads that give focus sash lead snover a lot of trouble, including Uxie, Crustle, Rotoms, fire types to switch into from volt switch/u-turn, and the unusually common Cinccino. Once Snover is forced out, getting SR up will pretty much turn it into sack fodder.

    However, I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test of both hail and/or Walrein. It pretty much goes without saying that a well-built hail team can be a real pain to deal with (with or without walrein).
  20. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    I think that offensive hail is really strong but I think it is Walrein who really deserves the suspect because at least specs Glaceon is slow.
  21. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    Hail

    Many people feel strongly about Hail and I don't blame them, it's a huge, and I mean HUGE game changer in RU. I'm not too sure yet of my stance, but I think a suspect test of Walrein and then Hail would be the best option; considering many believe that Walrein is the problem rather than Hail. I think a majority want it at least suspected, and that would probably help a lot of people with their opinion on it.

    edit: i realize my post is kinda sucky so im going to make it more clear
    (I'm Kenny on irc btw, if you didn't know)

    [14:40] <Kenny> i think suspecting rein before hail
    [14:40] <Kenny> is a better option
    [14:40] <Kenny> because
    [14:40] <Silvershadow234> ^
    [14:41] <Kenny> lets say rein is banned
    [14:41] <Kenny> then we can really determine if hail is still broken
    [14:41] <Kenny> or if it was just walrein
    [14:41] <Kenny> thats my stance
    [14:41] <Kenny> because if you suspect hail before rein, you won't know if rein was the problem or if hail was the problem
    [14:41] <guest42069yolo> if niggas still complain about hail
    [14:41] <guest42069yolo> you suspect that
    [14:41] <Kenny> yea
    Oddish is the best likes this.
  22. -Sparkbeat-

    -Sparkbeat-

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    After getting some more experience against it, I would definitely support a Walrein suspect test. The amount of Pokemon it can set up a substitute against is amazing, and stopping it after a sub is a real chore. Not to mention the only support you need if Hail and a Poison type/Rapid Spin support to get rid of Toxic Spikes. Hail in general should stay imo, since it adds some more diversity to the metagame. Sure Glaceon Blizzard spam is very powerful, but so is a Choice Band Aggron's Head Smash, and they can both be revenged easily. I've also found that Glaceon can rarely get in safely against offense. A for Defense vs hail, I can't say anything about that since I only play offense.
  23. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Alright, so after playing a quite a few matches with double01 today, and a few matches on the ladder with Ice Body Dewgong, to be quite honest, I feel that Dewgong is just as bad as Walrein, if only marginally easier to deal with. With a specially defensive spread, Dewgong is only taking about 3-4% more on average from every special attack than specially defensive Walrein, which means that Dewgong still has most of the same ridiculous set-up opportunities Walrein has, and it can still survive ridiculous things like LO Galvantula's Thunder at full health. Even though yeah, Dewgong is quite a bit frailer on the physical side, I never found that it really hurt Dewgong very much when it came to setting up, since most of the time I was setting up a sub in the face of Moltres, and in desperate situations Dewgong could still set up against stuff like Choice Scarf Emboar locked into Flare Blitz if SR wasn't on the field. Like I mean, look at some of these calcs:

    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dewgong: 185-218 (48.17 - 56.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dewgong: 221-260 (57.55 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dewgong: 150-176 (39.06 - 45.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    The only thing I really found annoying about Dewgong was its lack of Roar, which forced me to use Toxic and let some tricky things like SubCM Uxie set up on it, which was somewhat compounded by the fact that Dewgong's Surf isn't as strong as Walrein's (Dewgong can't break +0 Uxie's sub while Walrein can). The lack of Roar also meant that Dewgong, unlike Walrein, can actually be outstalled by random Rest mons, which was pretty irritating; however, unless they're named Poliwrath, it's not hard to wear them down slightly with Surf, then switch to something that will force them out. It's not like it's going to be THAT difficult to set up a Substitute if your opponent is running something like RestTalk Poliwrath anyway. Steel-types like Klinklang and Escavalier were also a little trickier to deal with as a result of Dewgong's weaker Surf, but Dewgong still could deal with them perfectly well, since Surf still 3HKOes Klinklang after SR and 4HKOes Escavalier, though the fact that Klinklang's Gear Grind can break Dewgong's Sub with the first hit was kinda annoying, but not really detrimental (and I think with some investment this can be avoided as well). Defensive Slowking could also break Dewgong's Substitute with Psyshock, which was also kinda annoying, but still very manageable since you can stall that out of PP if necessary with Substitute + Protect, and/or toxicstall Slowking until it's forced to switch.

    But overall, it played exactly like an inferior Walrein; once you set up a Substitute, your opponent can just be completely outstalled with little hope of breaking through. I definitely think though that the people who are just saying, "ban Walrein, save hail" really need to test the other Ice Body abusers out as well, and ask themselves whether or not they are sufficiently nerfed to be manageable, because otherwise, if we just ban Walrein, another abuser who does the exact same thing but is only slightly worse may still be present and pose an equally deadly threat to teams. Imo, from the current testing they have done, they ARE just as bad, so I personally feel that it wouldn't just be Walrein that is broken: it would be hail as a whole.
    TROP, EonX and Feranfell like this.
  24. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    I've been playing quite a bit with Hail lately, and I have to agree with SilentVerse here. It's not just Walrein. Every Pokemon with Ice Body poses a serious problem. SV touched on Dewgong who literally is an inferior (but still very effective!) version of Walrein, but I'm going to talk about Glaceon a bit. Yes, that's right, Glaceon can use the SubProtect strategy thanks to Ice Body. Now, before I get into this, the Hail team I've been using uses Walrein and Glaceon as a one-two punch to give me varying ways to find a win condition.

    When you first look at Glaceon, the first thing that stands out from other Ice Body Pokemon is that staggering base 130 Special Attack. This means that it has much more offensive presence than Walrein or Dewgong (or even Vanilluxe for that matter) could ever have. While it may not be as bulky as Walrein or Dewgong, Glaceon still has the bulk to setup on most unboosted neutral hits with heavy HP investment. The common issue for Glaceon offensively is its coverage. Blizzard and Hidden Power are really the only 2 moves that ever see use on Glaceon. Well, guess what? You have 2 moveslots left after SubProtect. Use Blizzard and HP Ground. Glaceon is problematic in a different way than Walrein and Dewgong are. Steel-types, especially Magneton, are no longer safe. HP Ground destroys Magneton and it's a very common response to Glaceon thanks to the threat of a Choice Specs Blizzard. In fact, the threat of that Choice Specs Blizzard is what can often times lead to Glaceon getting that first Sub up. It can come in on something like Clefable, Tangrowth, or Ferroseed and get up a Sub just due to the sheer offensive threat it poses to these Pokemon. Lanturn is no longer safe either. Glaceon isn't weak to Volt Switch and has HP Ground to continually (and very effectively) chip away at Lanturn's HP and Scald isn't even guaranteed to break Glaceon's Sub (actually won a match or two this way just trying to get min-max variation to work in my favor) However, what makes Glaceon so hard to deal with as an Ice Body user is its offensive firepower. Taunt is a way to very effectively render Walrein and Dewgong useless. However, not only does Glaceon beat every common Taunt user (Qwilfish is still 2HKOed by Blizzard despite the resist) but it also has the offensive firepower to just let loose with attacks (and it may also have the protection of a Sub to let it do this more effectively than you might think)

    There have been many times where I've had the SubProtect cycle set up with Glaceon, but just found it much easier to simply plow through the rest of the opposing team with Blizzard+HP Ground. That's another thing. Typically Hail Stall teams don't have that offensive "punch" to turn to if that stalling cycle can't get setup, but Glaceon provides this while still sticking to the principles of Hail Stall (using residual damage from Hail, Poison, etc. to wear down the opponent) Now, Glaceon has all this firepower even with a more defensive approach, but it doesn't have the bulk that Walrein and Dewgong have, nor that secondary Water-typing. While this may seem really bad, it really isn't. Sure, you don't have that bulk to live insane hits and get a Sub up, but you have offensive presence to force necessary switches to get that Sub up. Then, thanks to Glaceon's offensive potential, you can start stalling, or just fire off a Blizzard/HP Ground if the opponent sends in something slower than Glaceon. Glaceon still has the bulk to take most neutral hits and set up a Sub on them so long as the opponent hasn't boosted. Oddly enough, I've ended up winning more matches with Glaceon than I have with Walrein (remember, I use both on my team) simply due to the more flexible approach Glaceon has. I'm not trying to knock Walrein and Dewgong at all, but if an offensive Pokemon like Glaceon can still pull off a typical Ice Body stalling set with very consistent success, then Hail as a whole needs to get looked at imo.

    To SilentVerse's point about people needing to test out other Ice Body Pokemon, I wholeheartedly agree with that. I was one of those too. At first I thought it was just Walrein that could make life so difficult, but after using the current team I have now that features both Glaceon and Walrein, as well as seeing SV talk about Dewgong, it's more than just Walrein. Every Ice Body Pokemon presents its own set of challenges and difficulties for opponents to overcome. Walrein is arguably the best, but Glaceon, Dewgong, and even the rare Vanilluxe have their merits. Dewgong has the same merits as Walrein, only with a slightly worse stat spread and a lack of Roar. Glaceon doesn't have the insane bulk, but it still has enough and it has the most offensive firepower of any Ice Body Pokemon. Vanilluxe has more firepower than Walrein or Dewgong and is the fastest Ice Body Pokemon in the tier. It might be the most manageable, but it still presents issues with being able to get that first Sub up a little faster than the other three. Need to work on post length... sorry for the wall of text lol
    SilentVerse likes this.
  25. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    Ok, earlier I posted about my views but I've changed my mind. I agree completely with SilentVerse about Walrein and the pseudo-Walreins that exist. Glaceon, Dewgong, Even Ice Cream can pull off the same shit and effectively being a worse Walrein, but while still being just as annoying/hard to take down. So I'm glad SV made that post, and EonX too because they completely changed my view on the issue. :)

    ps. check my sig for relevant information :toast:
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