Hariyama? UU?

[Deck Knight]

Hariyama and Heracross are two entirely different beasts. Hariyama's job is essentially to switch into Dark types and go "Hai I'm here to LOL at ur moves." Hariyama with HP/Def builds laughs at TTar.

Knock Off and Whirlwind are both excellent moves on Hariyama. Knock Off moreso now because when Kazam switches in on a Hari Sub, while it isn't even close to a 3HKO on most Kazam spreads, it sure beats the heck out of the 2% or so it used to do. Gengar similarly does not like switching in to eat a Knock Off. Both of these pokemon can barely survive a powerful attack at 100% HP, shave off even 20% and they are much easier to dispatch. Losing thier item can also be a good nerf, Trick Kazam fails if it's item gets knocked off before it tricks, and a Leftovers-free Gengar eventually dies from attrition rather than using good switchins and Hypnosis to recover.

 

[lilwartz]

Weavile is a revenge killer. Heracross kills your pokemon, Weavile can come in and OHKO.

Specsmence switches in on the Megahorn/Close Combat and OHKOs with Flamethrower or Draco Meteor. He can do it every time... that sounds like a counter to me. He outspeeds Cross unless it is Scarf. But Scarf Heracross isn't nearly as scary after an intimidate.

Anyway, the point is, Hariyama can be a nice alternative to the same ol' Heracross because he has more diversity in his sets and therefore can be difficult to counter because you don't know what set he has. Everyone expects Heracross to be CB or CS with the same 4 moves because he always has them. It is standard for a reason, but predictability is a team weakness.

Weavile doesn't really pose a threat to heracross, as a scarfed one will easily ohko, while a normal one would probably flee. Pursuit is 4x nve against heracross, so unless it's at like 40 hp or something, that won't kill it either.

 

[El_Sargento]

A question...

What is better in a support Hariyama? Force Palm or Body Slam? Paralysis + Knock Off is interesting.

Force Palm: 90 BP fighting attack (with STAB) and 30% paralysis (resisted for Flying, Poison, Bug, Psychic, and Ghost Pokémon)
Body Slam: 85 BP normal attack and 30% paralysis (neutral damage in Pokémon don't named Ghost, Rock and Steel... the two last types are scared of Fighting attacks, anyway)

My written English is a bit poor. Sorry.

Weavile doesn't really pose a threat to heracross, as a scarfed one will easily ohko, while a normal one would probably flee. Pursuit is 4x nve against heracross, so unless it's at like 40 hp or something, that won't kill it either.

Is 2x NVE (bug doesn't resist dark)

 

[Mr.E]

Spiritomb is neutral to Megahorn

Whoops.

You can't count Guts, Weezing isn't going to Burn Heracross AFTER switching in to it and Heracross probably wouldn't switch into Weezing at all. :( Willingly trying to get Heracross Burned will quickly get you worn down by the passive damage anyway and Weezing can still Flamethrower and possibly Pain Split for recovery.

Anyway, I would consider anything resistant to both primary (read: STAB) attacks a decent enough "counter." Most Choice users have enough power and variety that no single pokemon can all four of their attacks. Since they're locked in anyway, you just have to make safe choices (switch in those resistant to their most powerful attacks) or out-predict them (which can go either way). Remember, no recovery is their weakness; you just wear them down and limit the chances they have at ripping a hole in your team if you predict poorly.

Heracross is absolutely nothing like Hariyama. If you want to make a comparison, use Machamp. Machamp has certainly surpassed him with the advent of No Guard, but Hariyama is still better as a purely defensive choice and has weird moves like Knock Off and Whirlwind so you have to take advantage of Hariyama's quirks to make him something other than an inferior Machamp. Dark/Rock resistance, add Ice/Fire for Thick Fat, also lacking Ground weakness, Hariyama is a very good defensive pokémon that still has a high enough Attack stat to put out some good damage.

I wouldn't use either Force Palm or Body Slam. :[ Body Slam is good in comparison to its normal cousins, Return/Double-Edge, because it's nearly as powerful. Force Palm, in comparison, is a lot weaker than Cross Chop or Close Combat. If you must, though, Body Slam is probably better since that and your Fighting attack gives you neutral coverage on everything but Ghosts and it deals more damage on other common switch-ins (such as Cresselia or Salamence/Gyarados).

 

[Frozen_Quinn]

Both of these commonly carry Will-o-Wisp too, so if you add Guts Heracross does 50-59% on Weezing and I'm not sure about Spiritomb but definitely 2HKOs, maybe OHKOs.

who would will-o-wisp a heracross?

 

[Thorns]

I was thinking of

Hariyama @ Leftovers
252 HP / 96 SDef / 96 Def / 128 Atk
Adamant
- Force Palm
- Subsitute
- Payback
- Ice Punch/Bullet Punch/Whirlwind/Counter

It has the potential to be a great staller in UU. And it probably is going to end up in UU. It's good, but there are so much more better choices. Note that Tier rankings are mainly ranked by usage. Go the Fat Man.

btw QuakeSlide sounds like a name for a milkshake :)

 

[Aeonstrife]

Am I the only one who thinks Facade is good on Hariyama? With the Guts bonus + Facade I think it'd be feasible

Hariyama@Flame Orb
Guts
Not sure of EV's
Fake out
Bullet Punch
Facade
Ice Punch/Close Combat


Not the best type coverage but Fake Out as first move to get Flame Orb active, then Facade and Bullet Punch to finish off

 

[sanjay120]

I'd use Fling for burn, but I don't know where to squeeze it in.

 

[Deck Knight]

I gotta be honest, Bullet Punch is simply AWFUL on anything other than Metagross, or possibly Lucario and Medicham. Fighting hits everything Steel does and more, and priority attacks are primarily for tech, not damage.

I don't think Hariyama should bother with Bullet Punch, it has far more useful options at its disposal.

 

[lilyhollow]

Hariyama might want to use Bullet Punch if it's going for a Belly Drum set, but that's as far as I'd go.

By the way, Flame Orb is a horrible idea on Hariyama. It can't sweep and giving it a Flame Orb won't change that. You'll just have a slow piece of crap that dies instantly and can hardly get a hit in unless it's a base 40 non-stab hit. ._.

 

[Mekkah]

Doesn't stop you from using names like EspyJump, SpecsMence or Tyraniboah now, does it?

I hardly ever use EspyJump considering I loathe that name. I usually say Choice Specs Salamence too but that kinda depends. Boah has had so much influence I would say it deserves the name. There's a difference between this and stamping a name on two attacks on one Pokemon.

 

[adman2]

Hariyama might want to use Bullet Punch if it's going for a Belly Drum set, but that's as far as I'd go.

By the way, Flame Orb is a horrible idea on Hariyama. It can't sweep and giving it a Flame Orb won't change that. You'll just have a slow piece of crap that dies instantly and can hardly get a hit in unless it's a base 40 non-stab hit. ._.

ON TOPIC:

I guess Hariyama's meant to be a defensive Fighting type, not a sweeper, and using Guts would diminish that capability (as you mentioned).

Would this moveset work?

Thick Fat

Knock Off
Substitute
Focus Punch
Payback


OFF TOPIC:

Where did Tyraniboah get its name from? I don't see anything that suggests a snake in the moveset at all.

 

[Mekkah]

Lack of a direct STAB move is going to be a pain in the ass. I don't like SubPunch Hariyama much. Boah is derived from nothing at all, it's more of a random yell than anything (though I made a joke of it by saying suBstitute/focus punch/thundAbolt/cruncH once, which only KKM picked up).

 

[saratos]

Really, Hariama is a great tank that is just overlooked.

 

[SimChao]

He's to slow, Psychic types just destroy him.

Swampert's too slow. Grass type moves will destroy him.
Tyranitar's too slow. Fighting type moves will destroy him.
Rhyperior's too slow. Water and Grass type moves will destroy him.

Let's move them all to UU, kay? Because OU/BL is only for things that have no weak.

 

[Dragontamer]

Name a good Heracross counter other than Gliscor. You can't always have Gliscor, so you can't always have a counter for Heracross. If you get outpredicted by a Heracross user and don't have Gliscor, you are at a huge disadvantage.

Crobat has 4x resist to both Megahorn and Close Combat... though... yes... Stone Edge == death. But you counted Gyarados as a counter so I figure you should count Crobat as a counter. If he CS the wrong move, Crobat == forces Heracross to switch out with the threat of Aerial Ace, Air Slash, etc. etc.

How does Heracross go up against good ol' reliable Skarm + Drill Peck? I don't feel like running the calculations of Stone Edge or Close Combat on it :-/

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

OFF TOPIC:

Where did Tyraniboah get its name from? I don't see anything that suggests a snake in the moveset at all.

'Boah', in this context, is the bord 'boy' with a very thick accent applied to it, as in "Boah, I'm gunna hafta take a whuppin' to yur ass if'n ye don't shape up right quick-like."

 

[Hekatoncheir]

'Boah', in this context, is the bord 'boy' with a very thick accent applied to it, as in "Boah, I'm gunna hafta take a whuppin' to yur ass if'n ye don't shape up right quick-like."

LINK MY BOAH

 

[akroma4]

Thunderpunch/ice punch/cross chop/knock off and thick fat seems hot for me.

I might use it.

Can somebody say electivire?

 

[Deck Knight]

Can somebody say electivire?

Yeah, cause we all know Electivire LOVES eating STAB Cross Chops, and Hariyama really gives a damn if Elevtivire gets a speed boost.

Electivire is just Electabuzz that uses attack and has marginally better defenses, It still doesn't like eating powerful STAB attacks.

It is idiotic to just respond to an electric move on any given moveset and go "lol Electivire."

 

[Mekkah]

He meant that moveset was rather like Electivire's standard.

 

[Deck Knight]

He meant that moveset was rather like Electivire's standard.

Oh, my bad.

I was going to say, Defense EV oriented Hariyama beats the tar out of Electivire. You'd never send Electivire in on Hariyama unless it was already heavily weakened, Otherwise its too damn risky to try and absorb Thunderpunch.

And even still, I think saying any two movesets are "close to Electivire's" standard is fairly silly. Nearly every fighting pokemon this gen is probably going to carry 2 elemental punches and a STAB move, bar Lucario.