Haxorus

I don't get why you're posting if you're going to ignore everyone elses opinions. I have actually provided arguments, you haven't. It's been stated that it shouldn't be compared to Mence, but without adequate reasoning; yes, both have advantages, but Ononokusu's main perk is that it doesn't die to random Ice attacks. Salamence is faster and can use Fire Blast to nail stuff like Nuttre and Skarm, not to mention that Dragon / Flying with Intimidate is so much easier to set up than a really specially frail pure Dragon. Bulky DD Ono is even more outclassed since it doesn't get recovery and has worse defenses and defensive typing.

Rayquaza is likely to be Uber in Gen V, Salamence probably won't be. So that part of your argument is irrelevant.

Relevant calcs.
The only thing you aren't understanding is that your trying to dismiss this pokemon by comparing it to TWO pokemon that EASILY outclass it when placed in similar situations that benefit them! Despite the fact that you continue to mention Salamence's, and Gachomps ability to use fire based abilities to check Ono's obvious problems when it can't even hit with a fire based special/physcial attack which is even more irrelevant because it's already been stated, and can be seen without it having to be mentioned every other page. You then go about mentioning the OBVIOUS advantages, and individualities that the other two have over it i.e. mence's intimidate and typing, Garchomps Sand Veil and typing, and then continue to make it seem like Ono's OBVIOUS individualities are "inferior" to theirs, when it's pretty damn clear that Ono isn't meant to be as versatile as the other two and has a specific niche in it's own right.

Not only are your calcs failing to show his perks from the other dragons other then the plain as day x2 ice weakness, but then your placing it in situations that's already been noted as unfavorable to it, and still continue to place it in the same bracket as those two screwing over your own logic by comparing them. I mentioned Rayquaza because you so readily, and willing, mentioned Salamence's obvious features. In respect to tiers you have NO clue what the hell the tiers are going to be like in the begining other then by speculation, so in a fair situation, Ray had it's mentioning, and as such, you immediately jumped to the conclusion of Ubers in Gen V. Lets put it in a gen IV perspective then shall we?

Mence popped into the Uber metagame with an obvious showing that it would be outclassed by Rayquaza. In your argument, you would be arguing his obvious perks over Rayquaza while still noting that it is obviously outclassed. In my situation apart of the arguement, not only would I realize that Mence in the Uber bracket against my Ray would be inferior, but I would have the common sense to not compare the apparent superiority that Rayquaza would have over Mence. Now swap that back over this current Gen, replacing Mence with Ono, and like wise to Ray with Mence. Not only am I defending it's obvious advantages, but im not mentioning the plain as day superiority to Mence. Instead, you lack the common sense to seperate Mence from Ono because it's obviously inferior, and continue to put up a one-sided arguement against it, which was the difference be the above example of this situation.

Im not passing of your post, but im questioning the logic behind why you continously post up the obvious factors as to why Ononokusu SHOULDN'T be compared to Mence, and Chomp. All of your statements and post CLEARLY show that they shouldn't be compared, yet fail to realize that yourself. What's stopping someone from not giving a care weither or not Mence, or Chomp can do this and that better then Ono? For one thing, if they needed a specific thing that Ono could fill better, i.e a niche, then they would obviously pick Ono. And in the same case can be said if that niche could be filled by Mence and Chomp simply because those specific perks come into play. With each dragons specific perk from one and the other it seperates them from having to be constantly paired towards each other. I have yet to see you bring up a comparison to between Chomp, and Mence, yet, you probably wont mention that because it obvious that those two shouldn't be compared right? SO! What the hell is stopping the same to be true for Ono?


@atticus- i agree that Skarm is definitely a problem. The lack of SE was pretty dissappointing as well since it would have been able to deal with a couple of other situations alot better.
 
If this thing relys on Earthquake for coverage, aren't Skarmory and Bronzong good checks to it? I don't know if there are any new pokemon that resist dragon ground, either.

Also, how do I run calcs for the new guys? I'm assuming that a +1 outrage from this guy wont reduce your Skarmory or Bronzong to nothing (Or Nuttory Or other defensive steel type).
 
If this thing relys on Earthquake for coverage, aren't Skarmory and Bronzong good checks to it? I don't know if there are any new pokemon that resist dragon ground, either.

Also, how do I run calcs for the new guys? I'm assuming that a +1 outrage from this guy wont reduce your Skarmory or Bronzong to nothing (Or Nuttory Or other defensive steel type).
Bronzong is stopped by EQ because of Mold Breaker.
 

Ice-eyes

Simper Fi
Axel:
Ononokusu doesn't really have a niche. Literally every set it can run is outclassed by Mence or Chomp. Ono can be better in very, very specific situations due to its lack of a quad Ice weakness and slightly higher attack; however, while Ononokusu is better in specific situations, overall those small advantages do not make it better using any particular set. Gen IV Blaziken, for example, can use a Baton Pass set that Infernape can't; that gives it a niche (disregarding Speed Boost here, since it's probably illegal with BP). Latias has a niche over Sazando; it checks different things, and so could fit on a team that was weak to Infernape, for example. Ononokusu doesn't perform any particular set better, as any advantages it gets from being pure Dragon are more than offset by its disadvantages. It doesn't have any really notable moves Mence / Chomp don't get, with the exception of Taunt (which only beats stuff Mence / Chomp could have beaten anyway, like Skarm). It doesn't really check anything that Mence / Chomp don't. All it gets is a very slightly different (but considerably longer) list of viable checks and counters.

You're telling me Mence / Chomp clearly have advantages, and this makes any comparison irrelevant. What? Evaluating those advantages (and, equally, disadvantages) is the whole point of a comparison! I apologise if I was labouring points that have already been made, but I am aware that despite the fact that I and others have been repeatedly making them quite a few people seem to still be hyping Ononokusu as God's gift to physical sweeping.
 
Axel:
Ononokusu doesn't really have a niche any more than Blaziken has a niche over Infernape. Literally every set it can run is outclassed by Mence or Chomp. Ono can be better in very, very specific situations due to its lack of a quad Ice weakness and slightly higher attack; however, while Ononokusu is better in specific situations, overall those small advantages do not make it better using any particular set.

You're telling me Mence / Chomp clearly have advantages, and this makes any comparison irrelevant. What? Evaluating those advantages (and, equally, disadvantages) is the whole point of a comparison! I apologise if I was labouring points that have already been made, but I am aware that despite the fact that I and others have been repeatedly making them quite a few people seem to still be hyping Ononokusu as God's gift to physical sweeping.
Trust me, I understand what your trying to say.

Yes. Im telling you that Mence/Chomp cleary have more advantages then disadvantages over Ono, and as such, in the comparison, it's already a understood factor that they outclass him in various ways and doesn't need to be discussed anymore. In an arguement where a comparison takes place your examining two or more things to establish similarities and differences. When that comparison becomes obvious in the fact that one thing is better then the other, the arguement, and the comparisons are no longer needed because an outcome has already come to fruition. That fruitions is that Mence and Chomp outclass Ono, and as such, shouldn't need to be compared to.

I understand that your trying to cut down on the Ono hype, because it is frustrating when people claim that that it's obviously this and that when they dont take the time to figure anything out for themselves. Sadly, that seems to be the way things are. But it's even more annoying for those that aren't hyping him up, and are trying to find possible counters and sets to constantly hear that it's outclassed by mence/chomp when it's obvious that it is.

When it comes to Mence- Ono can, and will setup on Jirachi bar the sub T-wave set, which mence can't. Against pokemon that can throw out Stone Edge and the like in the new metagame, as well as the old one, Ono can come in on a good majority of them, and setup as well. With those two perks, Ono can gain a spot on a team that may need a poke that can take a Stone Edge, Ice Beam/random ice attack, and setup and deal with other problems.

When it comes to Chomp- Mostly just the Ice weakness.

Even from some few perks over Mence, and Chomp, Ono can still find a place without conflicting with chomp or Mence. I could easily have Mence, and chomp together, while having Ono and chomp as well on a different team.

The fact of the matter is that anyone that's still overhyping Ono is miss-informed, and should be promptly informed. Im in no way shape or form overhyping Ono. In the same case, im backing up your statements about mence and chomp by stating that they shouldn't be compared because of what we've already posted about.
 
dragons ruled the Ou tier since the start of d/p and since salamence and garchomp are still going to be banned they people will just keep using ono till it goes to the uber tier.
 
Trust me, understand what your trying to say.

Yes. Im telling you that Mence/Chomp cleary have more advantages then disadvantages over Ono, and as such, in the comparison, it's already a understood factor that they outclass him in various ways and doesn't need to be discussed anymore. In an arguement where a comparison takes place your examining two or more things to establish similarities and differences. When that comparison becomes obvious in the fact that one thing is better then the other, the arguement, and the comparisons are no longer needed because an outcome has already come to fruition. That fruitions is that Mence and Chomp outclass Ono, and as such, shouldn't need to be compared to.

I understand that your trying to cut down on the Ono hype, because it is frustrating when people claim that that it's obviously this and that when they dont take the time to figure anything out for themselves. Sadly, that seems to be the way things are. But it's even more annoying for those that aren't hyping him up, and are trying to find possible counters and sets to constantly hear that it's outclassed by mence/chomp when it's obvious that it is.

When it comes to Mence- Ono can, and will setup on Jirachi bar the sub T-wave set, which mence can't. Against pokemon that can throw out Stone Edge and the like in the new metagame, as well as the old one, Ono can come in on a good majority of them, and setup as well. With those two perks, Ono can gain a spot on a team that may need a poke that can take a Stone Edge, Ice Beam/random ice attack, and setup and deal with other problems.

When it comes to Chomp- Mostly just the Ice weakness.

Even from some few perks over Mence, and Chomp, Ono can still find a place without conflicting with chomp or Mence. I could easily have Mence, and chomp together, while having Ono and chomp as well on a different team.

The fact of the matter is that anyone that's still overhyping Ono is miss-informed, and should be promptly informed. Im in no way shape or form overhyping Ono. In the same case, im backing up your statements about mence and chomp by stating that they shouldn't be compared because of what we've already posted about.
Wait, how does Ono set up on Jirachi? Virtually all of its sets can outspeed it and flinch it with Iron Head, or in the case of the Calm Mind sets hit it on its weaker defense stat with STAB Psychic or Flash Cannon. Also, how does it set up on Stone Edge users? Choice Scarf Tyranitar does 62.5% - 73.7%, Offensive Gyarados does 56.3% - 66.6%, and Lucario does 51.9% - 61.1%. You're trying to act like he has more that can set up on... which is simply not the case. Salamence can come in on Fighting, Ground, and Bug type attacks, while Garchomp can come in on Electric and Ground. None of these Dragons EVER want to come in on an Ice-type attack.

Not only is Ono being extremely overhyped, but it also has too defined of a role. It can't take hits, it's not as fast as five other Dragons (Latias, Salamence, Sazando, Garchomp, Flygon; six if you count Latios), and it can't mixed attack.
 
If this thing relys on Earthquake for coverage, aren't Skarmory and Bronzong good checks to it? I don't know if there are any new pokemon that resist dragon ground, either.

Also, how do I run calcs for the new guys? I'm assuming that a +1 outrage from this guy wont reduce your Skarmory or Bronzong to nothing (Or Nuttory Or other defensive steel type).
Both have to eat a fire punch after a ddance, brongzong gets hit by mold breaker earthquake and skarm (if it's male) has to take the equivelent of a swords dance fire punch because of rivalry (clearly the better ability) which probably ko'es speciel defensive skarm with rocks and does a number to max hp/max def. Both are shanderra bait and the best skarm can do is whilwind you away. With that said, it's gonna find a hard times setting up, with waters carrying ice beam and dragons everywhere. I see it like a worse garchomp/salamence: sure, it does a lot more damage (espeicelly with a rivalry boost) but all the other stats are worse. And it's not like chomp or mence had much trouble already breaking skulls.
 
Wait, how does Ono set up on Jirachi? Virtually all of its sets can outspeed it and flinch it with Iron Head, or in the case of the Calm Mind sets hit it on its weaker defense stat with STAB Psychic or Flash Cannon. Also, how does it set up on Stone Edge users? Choice Scarf Tyranitar does 62.5% - 73.7%, Offensive Gyarados does 56.3% - 66.6%, and Lucario does 51.9% - 61.1%. You're trying to act like he has more that can set up on... which is simply not the case. Salamence can come in on Fighting, Ground, and Bug type attacks, while Garchomp can come in on Electric and Ground. None of these Dragons EVER want to come in on an Ice-type attack.

Not only is Ono being extremely overhyped, but it also has too defined of a role. It can't take hits, it's not as fast as five other Dragons (Latias, Salamence, Sazando, Garchomp, Flygon; six if you count Latios), and it can't mixed attack.
i think that too but people will still use it and fight to prove he's better.
 
dragons ruled the Ou tier since the start of d/p and since salamence and garchomp are still going to be banned they people will just keep using ono till it goes to the uber tier.
Actually Salamence and Garchomp(maybe Latias too) will probably be OU in the beginning of the new metagame so unless they are banned again Ono won't be as overpowered as you seem to think.
 
Wait, how does Ono set up on Jirachi? Virtually all of its sets can outspeed it and flinch it with Iron Head, or in the case of the Calm Mind sets hit it on its weaker defense stat with STAB Psychic or Flash Cannon. Also, how does it set up on Stone Edge users? Choice Scarf Tyranitar does 62.5% - 73.7%, Offensive Gyarados does 56.3% - 66.6%, and Lucario does 51.9% - 61.1%. You're trying to act like he has more that can set up on... which is simply not the case. Salamence can come in on Fighting, Ground, and Bug type attacks, while Garchomp can come in on Electric and Ground. None of these Dragons EVER want to come in on an Ice-type attack.

Not only is Ono being extremely overhyped, but it also has too defined of a role. It can't take hits, it's not as fast as five other Dragons (Latias, Salamence, Sazando, Garchomp, Flygon), and it can't mixed attack.
Did I name any particular stone edge user? No I didn't. It can still take a stone edge regardless from the one's you mentioned, and at a +1 can possibly KO back. The Ono set I posted a page back can setup just fine on Jirachi, being only 4HKO or 3HKO in some cases, and still have a 40% chance to get off another DD and outspeed it. And while it can throw off an Ice punch, it'll only do enough to 3HKO it at most with the set I posted. And im not acting like he has more that he can setup on. I mentioned specificly, that he can setup on some things that Salemence can't while mentioning what me and Ice have been saying about it being in those specific situations. Stating that Salamence can come in on the mentioned types above was obvious, and not mentioned as such that Ono could come in on those types.

It's pretty damn obvious that what ever overhype things that are being spewed about this thing are miss-informed. BUt the "this thing is Overhyped" is just as common, and just as annoying. Goin mixed is just another thing that is plain as day obvious, and isn't even mentioned in this thread. And lol, placing Sazando in the "outspeeding dragons category" is jsut as lol worthy with Sazando outspeeding Ono by one point, and being outspeed by the others you listed.
 
dragons ruled the Ou tier since the start of d/p and since salamence and garchomp are still going to be banned they people will just keep using ono till it goes to the uber tier.
Even if Mence and Chomp go Uber, I doubt Ono will go Uber after that. You can't really say that Ono's versatile.It can't run a special set, like Mence did, and it can't go mixed. It's offensive movepool is pretty shallow as well. Ono will have a tougher time setting up than the other two do as well, due to it's lack of bulk. Also it seems Nuttre counters Ono quite well. Especially if you take into consideration that Ono will need to run DD in order to have ANY chance of sweeping on a regular basis. 97 base speed is nothing to brag about this gen.
 
the 5th gen pokemon look overpowered at 1st site but when we go in depth some get outclassed. clearly in this situation ono will be outclassed by dragons like salamence and garchomp.( if they start off in OU).
 
Even if Mence and Chomp go Uber, I doubt Ono will go Uber after that. You can't really say that Ono's versatile.It can't run a special set, like Mence did, and it can't go mixed. It's offensive movepool is pretty shallow as well. Ono will have a tougher time setting up than the other two do as well, due to it's lack of bulk. Also it seems Nuttre counters Ono quite well. Especially if you take into consideration that Ono will need to run DD in order to have ANY chance of sweeping on a regular basis. 97 base speed is nothing to brag about this gen.
Exactly. This thing isn't suppose to be competiting with Mence, and Chomp since it is completely different.

I wouldn't even worry about mence, and chomp going to Ubers when they'd be much more preferred in the new metagame of OU.

Going off of first sight is the main reason why so many people costantly talk about Ono being overhyped, because the idiots that overhype it fail to look into the pokemon more clearly.
 
All dragons are easily checked unless they are set up properly so i'm not too afraid of this one. bearing in mind his stats and ability.. he will go str8 to Uber for his massive abuse by noobs who will treat him like garchomp.

I despised garchomp just like mewtwo... too much power in the hands of fools make them make mistakes... i'm not afraid of either and I dont use them because there is no real challenge or strategy behind em.
 
Both have to eat a fire punch after a ddance, brongzong gets hit by mold breaker earthquake and skarm (if it's male) has to take the equivelent of a swords dance fire punch because of rivalry (clearly the better ability) which probably ko'es speciel defensive skarm with rocks and does a number to max hp/max def. Both are shanderra bait and the best skarm can do is whilwind you away. With that said, it's gonna find a hard times setting up, with waters carrying ice beam and dragons everywhere. I see it like a worse garchomp/salamence: sure, it does a lot more damage (espeicelly with a rivalry boost) but all the other stats are worse. And it's not like chomp or mence had much trouble already breaking skulls.
Why is it that Fire Punch continues to pop up as an attack that Ono can have? Where is the information that this is true? Not a single site has Ono with the capability of learning fire punch, so I'd like to know where your getting the assumption that it has fire punch.
 
Ono does not receive Fire Punch.

Counter and Endeavor are sort of interesting moves on Ono. Sub-Endeavoring to defeat a hard counter like Skarmory has its use.. but is limited. Countering back Brave Bird, then finishing off Skarm with Outrage is another option.

Gimmick, but an option.
 
the 5th gen pokemon look overpowered at 1st site but when we go in depth some get outclassed. clearly in this situation ono will be outclassed by dragons like salamence and garchomp.( if they start off in OU).
They have to start out in OU. There isn't a remotely good reason for them not to.
 
What does he do that Garchomp doesn't do better? Garchomp can make use of Fire blast and Draco meteor to take out the physical walls better than Ono, and otherwise it doesn't really matter. Dragon dance sets are all I can see this being good for.
 
What does he do that Garchomp doesn't do better? Garchomp can make use of Fire blast and Draco meteor to take out the physical walls better than Ono, and otherwise it doesn't really matter. Dragon dance sets are all I can see this being good for.
I agree. Low defensive stats dosen't help much either.
 
Ono does not receive Fire Punch.

Counter and Endeavor are sort of interesting moves on Ono. Sub-Endeavoring to defeat a hard counter like Skarmory has its use.. but is limited. Countering back Brave Bird, then finishing off Skarm with Outrage is another option.

Gimmick, but an option.
Lol, I like random gimmicks.

I can see it working, or by simply lowering others into reasonable K.O range. Although im not a fan of Endeavor, or Counter (even though I saw tons of it back in 3rd gen) it can make for some really fun outcomes as well. Not sure what kind of EV's that would run. Maybe have a berry attached as well?
 
Ono does not receive Fire Punch.

Counter and Endeavor are sort of interesting moves on Ono. Sub-Endeavoring to defeat a hard counter like Skarmory has its use.. but is limited. Countering back Brave Bird, then finishing off Skarm with Outrage is another option.

Gimmick, but an option.
His movepool is so bad he has to resort to gimmicks. I'm sorry but even if that's not concrete evidence for any of you to use Garchomp or Salamence, I don't know what is. Don't give me that Substitute / Swords Dance / Outrage / Earthquake crap either, Garchomp does that 10x better.
 
Maybe Onokuzu's role is a back up Dragon. One that's not mean to coverage sweep but to be a sort of Plan B Dragon to finish off with an overwhelming sweep when the opponent can't counter it?
I.E
@Choice Scarf
Adamant/Jolly Nature
Outrage
Earthquake
Night Slash/Brick Break/X-Scissor
Night Slash/Brick Break/X-Scissor

Maybe thats all it needs? Its purpose is for Revenge killing and taking advantage of openings to devastating effect, as opposed to other Dragons which is to coverage sweep.
 
I think a lot of people are looing at that 147 base attack and Dragon Dance and not really focusing on much else. Sure, that attack is great, although I don't know if it receives any notable KO's that base 135 and base 130 don't. But people need to step back and look at the bigger picture. That 97 speed is decent and only decent. It shoudn't be too hard to revenge, even after +1/+1. And if you predict the DD and get your Scarfed Dark/Dragon type in there as Ono DD's up he Ono doesn't even get a kill as he gets trolled by that base 98 speed. I do believe that Ono will be a very useful pokemon and a top tier threat but I see it being most effective as something like a Life Orb or Choice Band attacker. That speed just doesn't allow it to be a consistent set-up sweeper.
 

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