Heracross is still OU because I still use him

Introduction
I seem to go through phases with my team-building; after grinding out several below-average or downright terrible teams, I’ve finally come up with something that seems to be working. Now, everyone knows that “seems to be working” doesn’t mean it’s a good team, and I’m sure this one could be improved. In fact, I can see a few “yellow” threats right now as I’m looking at it, but, alas, I haven’t been able to patch it up.

I’ll be completely honest; I haven’t tested this team nearly as extensively as I usually do before posting it; however, it has still undergone enough test battles that I think I’ll be fine to post it, anyway.

The All-Important First Glance:

As you can probably see, the team focuses on setting up a Swords Dance Lucario sweep. Nothing fancy or metagame-changing; just an old-fashioned set-up-Luke-and-kick-some-ass strategy.


Notes:
  • Includes a status absorber
  • No Stealth Rock weaknesses
  • Four immunities to Toxic Spikes, plus one pokemon with Natural Cure and one with Guts
  • The team features Heracross, and he’s not here just “because I like him”. That’s pretty cool.

Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 36 HP/220 Spd/252 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
Flamethrower
Stealth Rock
Dragon Pulse
Explosion
Heatran’s Role
I chose Heatran to lead because after I had selected all of my pokemon for the team, he was the only one who could really do it. I try to get Stealth Rock up as early as I can, but I also try not to sacrifice Heatran too early; he can come back later to Explode on something troublesome, like Suicune or Machamp, and he obviously makes a great switch-in to predicted Fire-type moves. I went with Dragon Pulse instead of Earth Power or Hidden Power because between Fire and Dragon, the two moves hit everything in the game for at least neutral damage except opposing Heatran (I think). Heatran can also lure in Dual-STAB Salamence or Latias during mid-game, because they switch in expecting Earth Power or Flamethrower, and then I can hit them with Dragon Pulse.
With the EVs, he outruns Jolly Tyranitar by two points, meaning he also outruns defensive Celebi and Jirachi. There is no point in forcing a speed tie with other Heatran, because he can’t touch them without Earth Power.


Rotom-h @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/136 Def/120 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
Rest
Sleep Talk
Will-o-wisp
Thunderbolt
Rotom-h’s Role
Rotom-h is my main switch-in to Explosion from leads like Azelf and Metagross. I went with a Rest/Talk set, because I like having a status absorber around. He’s the most defensive pokemon on the team, and I rely on him a lot. He’s the only thing standing between an opposing Lucario’s foot and my ass, so he’s very important in that regard. He also counters Scizor rather reliably, and switches into Machamp’s Dynamic Punch with impunity. He’s Pursuit-weak, but Will-o-wisp prevents that from becoming an issue 75% of the time. On top of that, a Pursuit-locked Tyranitar, Scizor, or Weavile is complete set-up fodder for Lucario. Finally, Rotom can switch into Gliscor without much trouble, fearing only Taunt. Once in, I try to burn him, because Gliscor can counter Lucario perfectly.
The EVs provide Rotom with relatively balanced defences, with an emphasis on physical defense, because the Standard metagame is full of physical threats, thanks to Blissey and Tyranitar’s uncanny ability to destroy anything specially-based.


Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
Surf
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Recover
Starmie’s Role
For this team slot, I had a difficult decision to make: Do I want a defensive bulky Water, or something more offensive to keep the pace of the battle in my favour? I went with the offensive option, which has so far been working out all right. Life Orb Starmie can be incredibly difficult to counter without Blissey, Lanturn, or a very fast revenge-killer around, and of course, if anything tries to Pursuit it, the offender becomes set-up fodder for Lucario. Starmie deals with Heatran and Infernape, and lands a sure-fire OHKO on Gliscor. Gliscor shouldn’t be staying in on Starmie, but if I play my cards the proper way, I can sometimes “trap” Gliscor when my opponent realizes s/he doesn’t have anything that can switch into Starmie. Reliable? Of course not. But it helps a bit, anyway.
Starmie is up for review, to be honest. It has fair synergy with the rest of the team, and it can be a real destructive force, but I can’t shake the feeling that something else might be better suited to help Lucario set up or take out his counters. I was using a bulky Gyarados here to counter Gliscor and Hippowdon/set up on them, but I had no room on the team for a Rapid Spinner, and that’s really important, since I needed him to be able to switch in and out multiple times.


Flygon (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
U-turn
Outrage
Earthquake
Thunderpunch
Flygon’s Role
Flygon is like a “reset” button for the pace of a battle; the incredibly fast U-turn eases prediction, and can restore the momentum of a battle back to my side. Outrage and Earthquake are standard moves for him that help him revenge-kill or sweep on his own, and for the last move, I went with Thunder Punch; the team doesn’t have problems with Skarmory or Bronzong, and extra insurance against Gyarados is nice. Plus, Thunder Punch still hits Skarmory for super effective damage, in the event that he’s been weakened enough to be 2HKOd by it.
A Jolly nature and maximum Speed EVs forces speed ties with +1 Naive/Jolly Dragon Dance Salamence, the significance of which is that DDMence is a dick. Seriously; he can Outrage-sweep a lot of this team, since my two Steels are a lead and Lucario.


Heracross (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
Close Combat
Megahorn
Stone Edge
Night Slash
Heracross’ Role
The main reason I went with Choice Band Heracross is his ability to lure in and weaken Gliscor. If Gliscor isn’t carrying Roost, Heracross comes out on top more often than most people realize; Gliscor almost never carries Aerial Ace anymore, and his Earthquake is a 3HKO, meaning he can’t switch into Stone Edge or Megahorn without risking being 3HKOd first. Of course, Heracross also lures in (and often KOs) most of Lucario’s counters; Hippowdon, Skarmory, Rotom-A, Scarf Heatran, and Gengar are all taken down with the right move.
On top of that, Choice Band Heracross is a monster stall-breaker; he can 2HKO Skarmory with Close Combat, Rotom-A with Night Slash, and Hippowdon with Megahorn (or Close Combat). He makes a great switch-in to Blissey, especially stall-team Blissey, because she often carries Toxic instead of Thunder Wave. Once in, and with a Guts boost, Heracross can rip straight through many stall teams.
I went with a Jolly nature in order to outrun Jolly Gyarados, Adamant Lucario, and max speed Modest Suicune. Also, I’m using Night Slash instead of Pursuit, because Night Slash is a great way to take out Rotom-A and Gengar switch-ins, and Heracross’ Pursuit isn’t very strong, especially if I mispredict.


Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Extremespeed
Stone Edge
Lucario’s Role
As with any team that uses him, Lucario’s role here is to stomp some major ass. He sets up on Choiced users locked into the wrong move, and then sweeps away many teams like they were nothing. For the last move slot, I went with Stone Edge to hit Gyarados, Salamence, and Zapdos. I went with an Adamant nature for two reasons; first, Adamant is required to guarantee OHKOs on a few key pokemon, such as min/min Latias after Stealth Rock damage with Extremespeed, etc; second, almost anything in the game that can outrun Jolly Lucario will, so he gains very little by using a Jolly nature. Finally, maximum speed EVs lets him outrun Timid/Naive non-Scarf Heatran.

The All-Important Last Glance:

Trouble Spots I’ve Noticed
Tyranitar: Without a direct counter to him, I have to play around him with Flygon and Lucario. He doesn’t get many opportunities to switch in, and with any luck gets burned when he switches into Rotom, but I have to be careful with him.

Suicune: I only have one Water-resistant pokemon on the team, and Starmie is OHKOd by Suicune’s +1 Hidden Power (Electric). Crocune can set up rather easily on Starmie or Rotom while he’s Resting, and I just have to hammer at him with everything I have to take him down.

Salamence: Dual-STAB Salamence is an issue to pretty much everybody, but Dragon Dance Salamence can be a real threat to me; he can set up on Heracross if he’s locked into Megahorn, because Intimidate lowers the damage output significantly. I tried to limit the opportunities he has to set up, and for the most part, it works, and Flygon can (sometimes) revenge-kill him, too; however, I am quite scared of an Outrage sweep.

Final Thoughts
I don’t know how some people can write up a novel for their descriptions in RMTs; I can’t think of anything more to say that would bear any significance that team raters don’t already know. In other words, I hope you find these descriptions to be sufficient.
Thanks for reading and, more importantly, for rating!
 
Discharge over Thunderbolt on Rotom for the extra paralysis chance, which will help Lucario's lackluster speed a lot lategame when everyone is slowed down.

Hydro Pump over Surf on Starmie, as it just does more damage in general, 2HKO'ing every Tyranitar variant on the switch. Hmm, about what to replace with Starmie with.... No, he does a beautiful job at drawing in Blissey and company which Lucario often gets a free switch in on (just make sure you scout the status from Blissey since Starmie has Natural Cure).

Definitely go with Swampert over Heatran. Here is the set I would recommend:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Relaxed Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Ability: Torrent
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Protect / Roar

The small investment in Special Defense makes it a bit easier to come in on special attacks in general, while you still have quite a bit of physical bulk. Earthquake for STAB and because it is basically a staple of any Swampert. Ice Beam to hit Celebi, Breloom.... Salamence... on the switch. Protect lets you scout, gives an extra turn of recovery, and prevents you from dying to Metagross' Explosion in case you aren't expecting it. Roar helps with Crocune among others, while also racking up Stealth Rock damage. You will notice I did not suggest a Water move, as now it is obsolete, with Hydro Pump once used to beat Skarmory, now most Skarmory run Specially bulky sets, so a 2HKO is no longer achieved. Swampert over Heatran also because opposing Heatran can literally be the death of your team, with Flash Fire boosted attacks easily 2HKO'ing Starmie and Flygon.

I would recommend CB Scizor or SD Scizor over Heracross, as his powerful combination of priority and his new toy Bug Bite will easily capitalize on annihilating Lucario's problems, or U-Turn if you so please. Scizor will also provide you with a guaranteed 60% damage on Salamence seeing as how you hate him so much. Scizor does well to scare Tyranitar without Babiri Berry shitless as well. Finally, CB Bug Bite is a 2HKO on Suicune, and Swords Dance Scizor can also dismember him. Here are two sets for Scizor:

Scizor @ Choice Band - Adamant
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Ability: Technician
- Bullet Punch
- SuperPower
- U-Turn / Bug Bite
- Pursuit / Quick Attack

Scizor @ Life Orb - Adamant
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Ability: Technician
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Bug Bite / Roost
- Superpower / Brick Break / Roost

The sets are standard analysis, and I'm sure the spread can be fixed to your liking if you feel Scizor lacks enough bulk. Also, Scizor pairs wonderfully with Swampert and Flygon, as Swampert enjoys the 4x resistance to Grass he gives him, while Flygon hates the Ice and Dragon types that Scizor can easily obliterate.

Your team shouldn't have too much of a problem with the 3 threats you mentioned now, and your team doesn't seem to focus on playing as safe as possible, so I just went with the theme =D

The loss of Heracross and Heatran shouldn't pose too much of an issue, but if you still have issues handling enemy Heatran and those 3 threats, the reason is your team simply doesnt have the bulk to handle their attacks repeatedly, so the best option is to go BULKY. Hate Heatran? Use Suicune. Hate Salamence? Use Wish Jirachi. Hate Tyranitar? You shouldn't. You have fucking Lucario. xD
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
The main reason I went with Choice Band Heracross is his ability to lure in and weaken Gliscor. If Gliscor isn’t carrying Roost, Heracross comes out on top more often than most people realize; Gliscor almost never carries Aerial Ace anymore, and his Earthquake is a 3HKO, meaning he can’t switch into Stone Edge or Megahorn without risking being 3HKOd first.
Wrong. Gliscor is faster, so it can Roost stall out for a miss on Megahorn. And it resists it. It also can Roost to gain a resistance to Stone Edge, and the Close Combat drops will kill Heracross with Earthquake. If you aim to get around Gliscor, this isn't the set to do it with.

No time for a full rate, but it doesn't seem like you're playing toward Heracross's niche and are instead just using Heracross because you want to.
 
Puggy: Toxic hadn't occured to me, since Night Slash dealt with Rotom. But Rotom is hit hard by Stone Edge, anyway, so I'll try that out for sure. Yes, most Gliscor carry Roost, but lead sets or sets that are paired with an anti-lead will sometimes forego it for Stealth Rock (the set being Earthquake/Stealth Rock/Taunt/U-turn). Thanks for the suggestion!

Hoenn: The problem I have with Swampert leads is that they don't do much to common leads. They're usually forced out. But, since it really does seem like a good idea, I will certainly try it out.

Chris is me: I said Gliscor without Roost, and if I can catch it on the switch-in with Stone Edge, the high critical hit rate helps me *almost* as often as the poor accuracy hinders me. I don't keep Heracross in against Gliscor normally, especially if I'm locked into Close Combat; that little paragraph is basically there to say that if you forget to prepare for him, Heracross can open up for a Lucario sweep very easily.

Also, the team doesn't have much stall-breaking ability, and CB Heracross can break stall fairly well, which is another reason he's on the team. He also lures in and weakens most of Lucario's counters better than Scizor or Tyranitar does. Finally, if I drop him, I'd have to change the title of this thread, and I can't think of any other title to use.

Seriously, though, if I find something that works better than Heracross, I will, of course, use it.

DarkCyberElf: I'll see how Discharge on Rotom goes; I went with Thunderbolt because he's already spreading burns around, so paralysis seemed unnecessary, but you do make a good point.
I'm really afraid of Hydro Pump's accuracy, but the merits it brings with the extra power do warrant testing.

Swampert lead will be used. It makes sense.

CB Scizor deserves a test, too. As I said before, from my experience, Heracross is better at luring in and weakening Lucario's counters (Hippo, Skarm, etc), and CB Hera pounds holes into almost everything except Roost Gliscor, but Scizor's Steel-typing and Bullet Punch are also big assets to consider. Swords Dance Scizor...maybe. I will at least try it out, but I have a feeling Choice Band Scizor would work better.

Finally, Tyranitar is only a problem because if I don't know what set it's running, it can take something down. Flygon doesn't enjoy switching into CB Crunch, but I can get him in on Stone Edge or Dragon Dance. If Flygon is down, DDTar can destroy me if he sets up on Heatran or Night Slash-locked Heracross. I don't like to switch Luke into Tar first thing, because if he's a Dragon Dancer, I obviously can't do anything to him. Spikes also accompany DDTar a lot, so Luke can sometimes lose an awful lot of HP that way.

And thanks a lot for the rate!
 
Hello

If you wish Heracross will be able to take out Gliscor, then I suggest the SD Facade set.


Heracross @ flame orb/ adamant/ guts
6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe

- Sword Dance
- Facade
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw

--> Heracross lures in the likes of Gliscor. So if your opponent goes to Gliscor you can Sword Dance on the switch. After and SD, Facade OHKO's Gliscor and even Bulky Gyarados and Salamence (after intimidate). With an adamant nature you can also OHKO Skarmory, Hippowdon and Bulky waters (Suicune), even with SR. Close Combat deals with Steel and Rock types resisted to Facade. And Shadow Claw let's you deal with Gengar, Rotom-a, ..., who are immune to normal and fighting moves (CC and Facade). of course Night Slash and Megahorn can be used in the last slot to. Megahorn will OHKO Gengar after an SD, even though he is 4X resisted.

Hope this helped!
 
I think it's risky to use Heracross to lure out Gliscor.
If Gliscor packs Aerial Ace then Heracross is just death fodder.
And Aerial Ace is not that uncommon on a non-lead Gliscor or a Gliscor without Stealth Rock.
If Gliscor packs both Aerial Ace and Earthquake he can take on both Heracross and Lucario.
Starmie is probably your best option to beat Gliscor, NOT Heracross.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I think it's risky to use Heracross to lure out Gliscor.
If Gliscor packs Aerial Ace then Heracross is just death fodder.
His Heracross is a pretty terrible Gliscor lure as it stands, as 70% of Gliscor pack Roost, and the rest aren't exactly used defensively.

And Aerial Ace is not that uncommon on a non-lead Gliscor or a Gliscor without Stealth Rock.
It's on 8% of all Gliscor. It is pretty much only used for Heracross, and Heracross is somewhat uncommon. So, yes, it is "that uncommon".

If Gliscor packs both Aerial Ace and Earthquake he can take on both Heracross and Lucario.
You say this as if there's ever been a Gliscor not running Earthquake. 86.5% of Gliscors run Earthquake.

Starmie is probably your best option to beat Gliscor, NOT Heracross.
Because tons of Gliscors are going to stay in on Starmie.
 
Because tons of Gliscors are going to stay in on Starmie.
Of course not!
Choiced Starmies with Thunderbolt could lure out Gliscor, so if he predicts right and uses Ice Beam then it's the end of Gliscor!

Anyway, I thought more Gliscor carried Aerial Ace, my mistake.
Heracross could work then, the Facade version is probably the best one then.
 
It's on 8% of all Gliscor. It is pretty much only used for Heracross, and Heracross is somewhat uncommon. So, yes, it is "that uncommon".
I guess Breelom is also good reason for using Aerial Ace. Gliscor can take on most versions and Breelom resists Earthquake, so yeah, it's another reason. Also Aerial Ace hits Machamp harder then Earthquake. Also Gliscor isn't that bad against Celebi if it lacks HP Ice, while it also resists Earthquake. So yeah, Aerial Ace has more targets then just Heracross.

I would also suggest changing Heracross set for Swords Dancer or I would try to change Heracross for Scarf and Flygon make Special Life Orber to lure Gliscor and Hippowdon, which gives Lucario few troubles. Otherwise, it looks ok.
 
Delko: That...is an idea, isn't it? I'd lose the immediate power of a CB set, but that set does beat Gliscor much more easily. Thanks for the suggestion.

Silver Ace: When Heracross finds his way in, the opponent almost invariably switches to Gliscor, whom I can hit with Stone Edge for just over 30% damage. Starmie comes out on the inevitable Roost, forcing it out, OR, if my opponent doesn't know I'm packing Lucario (and doesn't know how valuable their Gliscor is), Starmie can sometimes take it out if my opponent doesn't have anything that can switch into Life Orb Starmie.

Basically, it's only the lead Gliscor set that I'll keep Heracross in on, and only if I really need to; I've taken down a few of those, because many of them lack Roost.

Garganator: Breloom has terrible defenses; Gliscor's Earthquake breaks its Substitutes, and Gliscor is faster. Basically, he doesn't need Aerial Ace for Breloom, and he can use U-turn for Celebi; it doesn't one-hit KO, but it's usually "good enough", so Aerial Ace on Gliscor really is just for Heracross. And yes, I'll try out Swords Dance Heracross; kind of a "double-up" strategy, which has worked for me on a suicide offense team before, so it's probably a good idea.
 
Garganator: Breloom has terrible defenses; Gliscor's Earthquake breaks its Substitutes, and Gliscor is faster. Basically, he doesn't need Aerial Ace for Breloom, and he can use U-turn for Celebi; it doesn't one-hit KO, but it's usually "good enough", so Aerial Ace on Gliscor really is just for Heracross. And yes, I'll try out Swords Dance Heracross; kind of a "double-up" strategy, which has worked for me on a suicide offense team before, so it's probably a good idea
Breloom runs two common sets: the Subseed and SporePuncher. The SubSeed takes 3 EQs before it breaks the Sub, the SporePuncher just keeps Seed Bombing until Gliscor has to Roost and dies to it. Without Aerial Ace, I'm afraid Gliscor can't do very well against Breloom. Just wanted to let everyone know.
 
After looking at the threats to this team, you should try Thunder Wave or Discharge on Rotom to catch the Tyranitar on the switch since it's easier to spam than Will-O-Wisp with Heatrans everywhere. It'll ease your problems with Tyranitar and Heatran (which can easily 2KO your whole team after coming in on Rotom). Also, I'd suggest using the SD set complimenting the latter addition well in the ability to KO Pokemon like Scarftran and Scarftar who would normally outspeed you. SD Heracross also solves your Crocune problems coming in, SDing and KOing with CC. Lastly, a better revenge killer might suit you there in Scarflatias acting as pursuit bait and a resistance to Fire attacks which Starmie doesn't do well at mainly due to Tyranitar and Scizor's fear of Hydro Pump. Scarflatias gives you both and a nice offense allowing you to free a spot to cover your other weaknesses. GL! :)
 
Get ready for another Blecko / Kir joint rate!

We think Heracross might actually be the weak link here for reasons other raters have stated. We looked for a better Gliscor lure to replace him, and settled on Mixed Jirachi. Iron Head / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Thunderbolt with an Expert Belt would be the set. This also does a good job of luring and KOing Gyarados, negating the need for Stone Edge on Lucario. Crunch is the obvious alternative move—it is especially appealing as it can kill Rotom for Jirachi, giving you a miniature “doubling up” strategy that I know you like. Jirachi also helps with Tyranitar and Salamence, two of your primary threats listed at the end of your first post.

With Jirachi in over Heracross, Heatran’s typing adds an unwelcome 3rd ground weakness, but we feel this can be played around. With Shuca Berry, Heatran can take the Earthquake and Explode on the Earthquake user. Earth Power should be used over Dragon Pulse, though. Just blow up on Latias and other dragons, since none of your other pokemon take a Draco Meteor well. You’ll also appreciate Earth Power to take on opposing Heatran (especially Scarftran).

Rotom’s RestTalk set disrupts the nice offensive flow in this team. We would like to see you try a timid set with Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Will o wisp / Pain Split or Hidden Power Ice. Hidden Power Ice Rotom is a nice Gliscor lure that I’ve seen panamaxis use and recommend before, and obviously fits for a Lucario based team. The timid nature also helps with your problems facing opposing Lucario. 188 speed EVs outrun Adamant sets.

Consider swapping out Starmie for Grass Knot Latias. A life orb set with Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor / Grass Knot / Surf / Recover will play similarly to Starmie but will help more vs Suicune. This also helps with the Scarf Tran problem we mentioned earlier because Starmie is often 2HKOed after Stealth Rock by Fire Blast.

Lastly, Stone Edge is better than ThunderPunch on Flygon. Gyarados is pretty well covered here, and Stone Edge is better in almost any scenario. It lets you revenge Salemence without locking into Outrage and still helps with Gyarados.

Hope this helps! Good luck!
 

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