Here Comes The Sun!

[Seth Vilo]

Here's a few questions for you wiser Sun Gods, since I seem to be incompetent at my favorite weather...

What the heck do you do against Rain teams? I've tried all sorts of things: I've run Virizion's Calm Mind set, which is promptly murdered by the ever-so-common Hurricane abusers, as well as every Rain team being prepared for the championed "anti-weather" Pokemon. I've run Starmie, but Politoed sucks up Thunderbolts rather easily, as well as Ferrothorn. I ran Kingdra for a while with Swift Swim to use their weather against them. Not only did I almost never see a Rain team during that period, but I discovered that if I wasn't up against a rain team Kingdra was a huge liability. I've tried beating them to a pulp with Protect+Speed Boost Blaziken, but there's always something faster, or something that can absorb the hit and KO me. I tried using a rain staple against them in Ferrothorn; Hurricane once again said hello, as well as Focus Blasts from Politoeds everywhere. So what am I to do against them? Poor Ninetales can't switch in on Politoed like Politoed can switch in on Tales (I think that the team automatically switches in Toed on Tales without the trainer even clicking). Toxic from Tales as Toed shows its ugly face kinda helps, but can't wear it down fast enough, nor can my Defensive Ninetales' weak Energy Balls.

Question 2 is what are you guys running on Ninetales? Defensive is fine and all, but I rarely find it actually doing anything but burning Tyranitar and dying to residual damage. I was running triple-status for a while for both laughs, and that Energy Ball/HP Fighting weren't doing significant damage to really merit them being on Tales or being used at all in battle. I've seen the Nasty Plot calcs, and find that tempting to do, but then Tales dies too fast and I loose my precious weather. What are popular more effective ways to run it than the Defensive set?

My biggest concern is freakin' rain teams, though. Personally, I think that Aldaron's Proposal actually made them more stable and harder to beat, as I had little to no problems with Kingdra and Ludicolo speedily running about, since once I took their weather they were useless. Not the other members of these Rain teams can stand on their own, with their weather only being a fun little bonus. Call me silly, but I can't figure out how to counter em'.

EDIT: In the Wifi tier. Dream World scares me...

 

[NichMcCoolStratus]

Run a Genosect with Thunder in the lead position.

 

[Benlisted]

Generally against Rain I find myself using Forretress a lot more than normal - his Volt Change is SE on most of their team and can get Tales in very easily. Toxic Toed the first time it comes in, and immediately switch Tales out all the other times she comes in unless Toed is dead. I run Rest, so using that as the Rain player thinks your Tales is about to die is pretty neat, and often nets you the win, whilst serving you well against TTar SS teams too.

Venusaur and Sawsbuck can fairly easily come in on predicted Surfs from non-specsed Toeds, and proceed to OHKO with their STABs (watch out for Ferrothorn, so prediction can get Tales back in here). Hazards seem to help in weather wars as you need all the residual damage you can get, tbh, since so many switches are forced. If you predict Ice Beams on your grass types, your fires can come in for free and begin to setup or smack something hard. It is very prediction reliant, but you can beat Rain teams if you practice. Perhaps it's Rest on Tales that makes it more possible, so try that if you're still having issues.

You could also Run Sunny Day as a surprise on things to make them have to keep switching in Toed.

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

I find that a Dedicated set of walls makes Rain much easier to kill. Politoed comes in only to be walled by Blissey, then switches out to have me wish something back to full health. The Genies are the only thing I have issues against, but since they are usually saved till late game my ninetales can come in set up sun then let one of my sweepers kill it. Also keep your typings to 2. Two grass/Two fire at most. Anymore and your team will have issues with certain typings.

If rain is really giving you issues you could try out Vaporeon, using it as a wish passer and defensive pivot to allow you to nab some KO's against pesky pokemon. Just don't run a water move, as they are neutered in the sun.

I run a Hit and run defensive Tales set that has worked the best for me. Power Swap/Protect/Overheat/Will-O-Wisp @leftovers. Timid Nature and full speed to tie with the other base 100's. Rest is split between HP and SpDef. Don't be afraid to switch tales into water attacks either. Anything short of SpecsOgre's Waterspout will KO you and you can protect to gain some lefts recovery (This is with 124 HP/132 SpDef Timid under sun (Set that I run), which if you switched in will make that the case). And once your sun is up you can switch out to your choice of pivot.

 

[RaikouLover]

Interesting, I found it quite the opposite. Ninetales + Venusaur is all I need to beat rain with sun. Rain doesn't wanna fuck with Venusaur, since Dragonite is the only thing it doesn't outright OHKO after a Growth (if Multi-scale is up). I found when using rain that Sun actually managed to beat me most of the time. All you need is Espeon / Xatu / or a Spinner, then run a defensive ninetales with Toxic and Will O Wisp. It always outlasts Poli and Tyranitar from my experience.

 

[shofly12]

I use forry a lot more than normal. Try to set up a ton of entry hazards and then switch to meganium who can dragon tail phaze their team with decent bulk.

 

[Lou Cypher]

I enjoy running SLOWBRO on a Sun-based team. The thing is, he learns Flamethrower, which nobody ever expects him to do. Coupled with a few utility/tankish moves (Yawn/Twave/Slack Off/Toxic, pick your poison) and perhaps a secondary attack (Psycho Shock or Ice Beam) and added with Regeneration, he's pretty hard to take down. Fun to watch him grab surprise KO's too with that Flamethrower, which gets semi-STAB after all (And while not amazing, he's no slouch on the attacking department).
He made for a nice defensive pivot.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

which gets semi-STAB after all

You meant "pseudo", right? Sun is a 50% boost, so it works just like a STAB.

 

[alphatron]

Started using sawsbuck again. LO with three attacks and aromatherapy. I love this thing. An offensive pokemon who has the ability to force switches when needed AND act as a cleric? So long as it isn't asleep or frozen, it can shrug off its own status as well. I would run sword's dance, but I'm usually forced out by a check. I guess I'm missing faint attack though.

And yeah, running sunny day on random pokemon can really mess with your opponent. Good pokemon for this are cresselia and garchomp, but there are others.

 

[Benlisted]

Started using sawsbuck again. LO with three attacks and aromatherapy. I love this thing. An offensive pokemon who has the ability to force switches when needed AND act as a cleric? So long as it isn't asleep or frozen, it can shrug off its own status as well. I would run sword's dance, but I'm usually forced out by a check. I guess I'm missing faint attack though.

I've been considering the use of Aromatherapy over Megahorn on my 4 Atks Sawsbuck for quite some time, actually, given how Sun teams can rarely fit in a cleric and how Sawsbuck is horribly walled by Skarm, Ferrothorn etc without an SD. How's it been doing for you? The only problem with this is that I then need a more reliable Latios counter of course, but could always revert to Double-Edge for more damage..

 

[alphatron]

Adamant LO double edge vs. 4/0 HP Latias: 84.4% - 99.7%

Same double edge vs. 4/0 Latios: 92.7% - 109.6%

You should be fine. You're running Saws with stealth rock support anyway (you'll seriously regret not doing so unless you're using sword's dance or something as LO Wood horn can't even OHKO Terakion without it) so double edge should still take them out.

It's been working rather well for me. At first I partnered him with magnezone with hp fire to dispose of skarmory and ferro. But that was a big mistake; Magnezone isn't worth the teamslot on any sun team.

 

[Benlisted]

Adamant LO double edge vs. 4/0 HP Latias: 84.4% - 99.7%

Same double edge vs. 4/0 Latios: 92.7% - 109.6%

You should be fine. You're running Saws with stealth rock support anyway (you'll seriously regret not doing so unless you're using sword's dance or something as LO Wood horn can't even OHKO Terakion without it) so double edge should still take them out.

It's been working rather well for me. At first I partnered him with magnezone with hp fire to dispose of skarmory and ferro. But that was a big mistake; Magnezone isn't worth the teamslot on any sun team.

Yeah, my initial usage of Megahorn was due to fear of HP invested Latis and using Return over D-E. Looks to me like Megahorn isn't worth the moveslot when you could just give yourself some recoil (healed by Wood Horn) to achieve the same thing with SR.

Aromatherapy seems better the more I think about it - it means you can come in on Jellicent in particular and in general anything spamming Boiling Water (for whatever reason since it's sunny..) without worrying about the burn too much. I'll give it a shot, thanks for persuading me XD.

Also, I'd like to mention the recent Sunny Day RMT by Midnight - take a look at it if you're interested in Sun as it has pretty fantastic team synergy and some very inventive but effective sets.

 

[Lou Cypher]

Wouldnt Jump Kick be able to dispose of Ferrothorns and the likes? I ran Jump Kick/Wild Bolt/Wood Horn/Double Edge, worked well enough for me at least.
@ Mario; yeah, little terminology error on my part.

 

[Benlisted]

Wouldnt Jump Kick be able to dispose of Ferrothorns and the likes? I ran Jump Kick/Wild Bolt/Wood Horn/Double Edge, worked well enough for me at least.
@ Mario; yeah, little terminology error on my part.

Problem is that without a SD it only manages a 3HKO on non-SpDef Ferrothorn - which, if it doesn't T-Wave you to cripple your sweep or Gyro Ball you for an OHKO, will cause well over 50% recoil with LO factored in, I believe, basically ending any hope you have for a sweep if they have any priority, hazards, etc. Ferrothorn is best to switch out of in my experience, so Aromatherapy gives it something to do as it comes in without causing recoil.

 

[alphatron]

I looked at Midnight's RMT and even fought against it two or three times on POs ladder. Nice stuff. The Infernape lead is friggin great.

Another problem pokemon for saws would have to be Gengar. I see him ocassionally and he's handled by my specially defensive jirachi, but saws can carry faint attack for him...I guess... Aromatherapy is still my fourth move of choice. The lack of bulk doesn't always allow you to Sword's Dance, and even if you pull off an SD, there are quite a few things that will ruin your sweep. While jump kick saws (okay, that was bad) heatran down to size, you'll be wishing you had nature power for those grounded pyschic/steel types. And then balloon heatran shows up when you actually are carrying nature power (which has the unfortunate side effect of being blocked by substitute by the way. As in nothing happens at all).

In other news, giga drain tangrowth is the new venusaur. Sure, he lacks the ability to kill the dragons, doesn't absorb toxic spikes, and has pretty awful special defense. But his physical defense, resistance to ground, and higher special attack shine out for him. LO Giga drain works wonders for him. Knock off is nice for messing whatever your opponent thinks might be a good idea to switch in. Sleep powder cripples threats that tangrowth can't outmuscle.

His only problem is his glorious ability to be outsped in the sun by choice scarf everything. But I've found that partnering him with a balloon nitro charge heatran, or a specially defensive support heatran, works very well.

 

[Benlisted]

Gengar is a big issue yes.. Luckily if it doesn't have sub it can be dealt with quite well by the rest of the team, but the fact is that often it does. Faint Attack is possible but given that you could be running Wild Bolt to hit Skarm instead (who is arguably more common) or say Megahorn for Reuniclus and Latis, it really doesn't seem worth it. Pack a Gengar counter seems to be the best option.

Tangrowth's Ground resist is truly awesome in this meta, as is his general physical bulk. His speed really cripples him however as a full on sweeper, which is annoying.

 

[Axa]

What of Leaf Guard defensive Tangrowth running Amnesia, then? Would it fly in the sun?

I'd be thinking:

Tangrowth@Life Orb
252Sp.Atk, 252HP, 6Def
Modest
Leaf Guard
-Amnesia
-Giga Drain
-HP Fire/Ground
-Sleep Powder

On a related note, I personally prefer physical Tangrowth, since his movepool on that end is extremely impressive. Power Whip, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Payback... even Flail and Bulldoze for niches.

 

[Benlisted]

What of Leaf Guard defensive Tangrowth running Amnesia, then? Would it fly in the sun?

Leaf Guard is generally not as useful as Chlorophyll. Status immunity is nice, but it pushes you in a defensive direction (even at +2 his SpDef is still only average) and if you use Amnesia it wastes a moveslot. Growth is pretty much more useful sadly, as a leaf guard seeding set would be cool. Pure physical is viable, but leaves you very suceptible to burn and generally has poorer reliability (bad accuracy or EQ being owned by Balloon this gen). Moreover Giga Drain's recovery is invaluable and HP Fire is too, though Power Whip helps you break down TTar and Toed more easily.

 

[alphatron]

Leaf Gaurd is better done by tangela with evolite.

If I haven't said it before, I'll say it now. Specially defensive Jirachi is sun's greatest weapon against rain.

 

[LeviLamprey]

Can I suggest an ultragimmick? Specs Cryogonal with Ice Beam, Solarbeam, HP Fire and a filler (Confuse Ray, Light Screen, Reflect?) It seems like it might work if people don't expect it. Or a Life Orb variant with Recover?

 

[breh]

but why would you want to use cryogonal?

EDIT: My point was that cryogonal sucks... What coverage does ice add to a sun team exactly?

 

[PlatinumDude]

but why would you want to use cryogonal?

Strangely enough, Cryogonal gets SolarBeam as a level up move. It could be used in Sun teams because of this, but I don't think Cryogonal would make the cut for it because of its Fire weakness.

 

[alphatron]

Having a fire weakness is nothing to worry about when being used on a sun team (all the chlorophyll pokemon, forry, natt, etc). Cryogonal unfortunately is just that bad. USed him once and I didn't enjoy the shared rock weaknesses he had with Ninetales and a few others. Eventually, he was ohko'd by a medicham bullet punch and I kicked him out of the team.

Plus, I'm already using gimmicks. Like specially defensive flareon for one. >_>

 

[Glen ^^]

What would be a good EV spread for a Rest + Lum Berry Exeggutor?

 

[alexwolf]

another good defensive poke for sun teams that also serves as a check to sand threats is torterra!
he covers ninetales and other fire mons's weaknesses(ground and rock)and we all know how common the edgequake combo is,and is also immune to electric moves as it is very nice to have someone to absorb all these nasty thunders that are throwed around by the rain abusers.
also in the sun torterra has a resistance to water(although 4x weakness to ice prevents him from walling effectively bulky waters)!
torterra also has morning sun and for its other moves he can use 3 attacks meaning stone edge,wood hammer and eq or 2 attacks and sr!
torterra also walls x-scissor-less doryuuzus while he can survive even an x scissor with max hp and defences from a +2 doryuuzu(with ballon of course,dont know the nature)and can kill back with eq or severly damage with wood hammer!you can also use superpower if you are afraid about balloon...
he can also check hp ice-less landlos dealing a ton of damage with wood hammer.you can also give her a yache berry(since he alrdy has reliable recovery)if you want torterra to always be able to deliver 1 wood hammer on landlos.
finally with yache berry and significant sp.def investememnt he can also check thundurus,surviving a +2 hp ice with yache berry and ohkoing back with stone edge!
that's all ni could thing...i just used him recently and found out that he can work in a sun team with his nice resistances and defences!what do you guys think?