Hidden Type

[Isa Simple]

Firstly I'd just like to say that we all very happy to have our beloved Dark Death Diggersby up there in the main rankings. #DDD

Next, I've made it into the top 10 multiple times but still wouldn't consider myself one of the top players as I haven't played half as many games, so I'll hold off on most of my noms just to see what others say first.
But I did gather a list of things that have been nominated or discussed in this thread between pages 14 and 20ish:

Flying / Fire Magnezone / Magneton - Were discussed around B / B+

Flying Excadrill - B / B+

Fighting / Electric Victini - B+

Ghost Porygon - B+

Ghost Chansey - B+

Serperior - C+ / C

Mega Aggron - C+ / C

Shedinja - There wasn't much agreement in this discussion, people seemed to be leaning towards C+ / B-

Water Dragonite - This was just one thing that I saw once for the double priority in Aqua Jet + Extreme speed but carries massive opportunity cost - C-

Fire Clefable - A-

Electric / Ground Kyub - B+ / A-

DDD - A - Already covered though

Grass Florges - C

Fighting Stoutland / Exploud / Kangaskan / Miltank - C

Dark Wobbuffet - Can't remember what this was nommed to, I think it was B- ish.

Steel Mantine - A-

Ground Haxorus - B- / C+

Steel Salamence - Brought up as a poor man’s Dragonite, maybe C / C+ material.

Grass Vaporeon - B

Steel Mega Abomasnow - B+ / B

Steel / Ground Scyther - C

Dark Rampardos - These last two were brought up for Trick Room, not much was said about rank. C

Ground Escavalier - C+

The temporary list to me looks like a decent reflection of the meta game. I do feel like Clefable could go to A+ and think that there are a few A mons that could drop to A-. There are also some more mons missing that I feel could be in the As which I'll bring up later.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Wow, that's great! I do feel like a couple things should be slashed though:
Poison Rotom-W is pretty cool as it is neutral to Grass and weak to Psychic, which is less common than Fighting. It also bluffs a Steel set with it's Grass neutrality/Toxic immunity, and let's it take Mega Pinsir CCs and Burn it back. Also unmissable Toxic if you want that.
Ghost Mega Lopunny, it gives you a Mach Punch/Extremespeed/Fake Out immunity making you less prone to getting revenge killed via priority. Electric is usually only better if you run Thunder Punch imo.
Dark Gengar gives it no weaknesses, allowing it to run Sub+WoW and/or Disable sets effectively. Also gives it STAB Dark Pulse, which is a slight upgrade over Shadow Ball, as the flinch chance is nice and nothing is immune to it, making mono-attacking sets more viable.
Steel Talonflame is basically Ground Talonflame with only a 2x Water weakness, an immunity to Poison, STAB Steel Wing, and a couple handy resistances (fuck Grass types lol).
I also think that Poison Crawdaunt is worthy of mention, it gives it only 2 weaknesses to Electric and Ground, with a few other neutralities, including Grass. This allows it to set up a Dragon Dance on Manaphy and then nail it with Knock Off (I don't think it tanks a +3 one, but it is still a neat revenge killer if Manaphy simply attacked). It also nails everything hard at +1 with LO with it's adaptability boosted STABs, and if you get up a couple Dragon Dances, RIP everything outside Clefable.
I'll also nominate Volcarona for B/B- Rank (I'll do a writeup tomorrow)
Why isn't Ice/Bug Talonflame slashed, OP asf obviously o3o

This is my post from just after the original viability rankings, and I think my points still stand (other than Talonflame, who is now B Rank). If you want me to explain any of my points better, I can. I also have a couple other nominations:
Steel Volcarona for B Rank
Volcarona is actually very good in this metagame. It has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game in Quiver Dance, and a Fire STAB to kill the variety of other Steel types. It also gets Giga Drain so it can handle the Unaware Pokemon (Giga Drain is SE on Quagsire+Water Clefable, Fiery Dance/Fire Blast is SE on Steel Clefable) and it also hits other key walls, such as Water Hippo and Gliscor, and offensive Pokemon such as Gyarados and it's Mega. The new typing halves its Rock weakness and eliminates its Flying weakness, but gives it ground and Fire weaknesses. It also gains a poison immunity and a bucketload of resistances. It really shines against stall, where as I said, it can set up and kill Pokemon such as Quagsire/Clefable, Hippo, Gliscor, Steel Togekiss (and Ground Togekiss is setup bait), and Tangrowth. It does struggle with Heatran though. The last moveslot can either be recovery in Roost or another STAB in Bug Buzz. It's typing also means it can't be stalled out--it is immune to burns and poisoning.

Flying Empoleon for B Rank
With a spread of 248 HP/ 104 Atk / 156 SpD and an Adamant Nature with Assault Vest, it can counter Manaphy completely. It only has a 0.4% chance to be 2HKOed by Energy Ball after Stealth Rock--if Manaphy is at +6! And, it can 2HKO Manaphy back with its new STAB Drill Peck. I run Knock Off/Aqua Jet/Drill Peck/EQ and this allows it to Knock Off stuff like Leftovers on wallsand Gliscor's Toxic Orb just be careful to not lose your Ass Vest before Manaphy is gone, or get weakened too much as you have no recovery. Aqua Jet is there for some priority, and EQ puts a dent in non-levitating Steels. And, if you're lucky and it is a Sticky Web team, you can get the Defiant boost and one shot Manaphy, and do some real damage potentially.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

This is my post from just after the original viability rankings, and I think my points still stand (other than Talonflame, who is now B Rank). If you want me to explain any of my points better, I can. I also have a couple other nominations:
Steel Volcarona for B Rank
Volcarona is actually very good in this metagame. It has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game in Quiver Dance, and a Fire STAB to kill the variety of other Steel types. It also gets Giga Drain so it can handle the Unaware Pokemon (Giga Drain is SE on Quagsire+Water Clefable, Fiery Dance/Fire Blast is SE on Steel Clefable) and it also hits other key walls, such as Water Hippo and Gliscor, and offensive Pokemon such as Gyarados and it's Mega. The new typing halves its Rock weakness and eliminates its Flying weakness, but gives it ground and Fire weaknesses. It also gains a poison immunity and a bucketload of resistances. It really shines against stall, where as I said, it can set up and kill Pokemon such as Quagsire/Clefable, Hippo, Gliscor, Steel Togekiss (and Ground Togekiss is setup bait), and Tangrowth. It does struggle with Heatran though. The last moveslot can either be recovery in Roost or another STAB in Bug Buzz. It's typing also means it can't be stalled out--it is immune to burns and poisoning.

Flying Empoleon for B Rank
With a spread of 248 HP/ 104 Atk / 156 SpD and an Adamant Nature with Assault Vest, it can counter Manaphy completely. It only has a 0.4% chance to be 2HKOed by Energy Ball after Stealth Rock--if Manaphy is at +6! And, it can 2HKO Manaphy back with its new STAB Drill Peck. I run Knock Off/Aqua Jet/Drill Peck/EQ and this allows it to Knock Off stuff like Leftovers on wallsand Gliscor's Toxic Orb just be careful to not lose your Ass Vest before Manaphy is gone, or get weakened too much as you have no recovery. Aqua Jet is there for some priority, and EQ puts a dent in non-levitating Steels. And, if you're lucky and it is a Sticky Web team, you can get the Defiant boost and one shot Manaphy, and do some real damage potentially.

Talking about Volcarona, it is a fine mon with monstrous base stats and it really shines in this meta. You could run steel with WoW as filler, I've used HP electric as it has great coverage between Fire/Grass/Electric. It is one of the only mons that can actually make good use of QD, so I definitely support it being ranked.

Also I would imagine Mew can run a lot more types than Dark/Water to solidify it's A ranking, if only due to its almost limitless versatility. Dark Mew seems to be the standard, but with access to several good boosting moves, priority attacks, baton pass, defog support, etc, etc...
It can basically be whatever your team needs it to be and has good base stats to fulfill whatever role you choose for it.
It literally has a shitload of moves to grab Stab with and it has unrivaled coverage.

 

[Ghoul King]

252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is the calc for any non Electric / Steel / Poison Clefable. Clefable can just CM on regular Gyarados and kill it with Moonblast. If you have Mega Gyarados and your opponent has Clefable, you can wait to mega evolve it and boost to the point where you can OHKO Clefable.

I'm not sure why you provided the exact same calc I provided, while ignoring everything I said when I provided that calc. What was the point of this?

If Gyarados switches into a +1 Dragonite and Intimidate lowers its attack to +0, Dragonite does more than 50% to regular Gyarados with Dragon Claw while Dragon Tail does around 12% to Dragonite. Eventually, Dragonite is going to win that battle especially since Dragonite can Roost and Gyarados cannot. As a matter of fact, if you run Dragon Tail over Ice Fang on regular Gyarados, Dragonite checks Gyarados, not the other way around.

Regular Gyarados doesn't check Dragonite with Ice Fang.

+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 119-140 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Dragonite can literally Roost through even +1 Ice Fang indefinitely, even before you consider that Roost removes its Flying typing and therefore the damage is even less if Dragonite is Roosting before Gyarados attacks.

Ice Fang doesn't let Gyarados (even Mega Gyarados) switch in on Dragonite and do anything meaningful. Dragon Tail does. The only argument in Ice Fang's favor is that it lets a heavily boosted Gyarados shove aside Dragonite, assuming Dragonite doesn't just Extreme Speed you because you've been weakened over the course of the boosting, which is a thing Dragonite does carry. Meanwhile, Dragon Tail makes it easier to hold those boosts. And note that +2 Waterfall is a 2HKO on Dragonite if it's Multiscale has been broken, which hey, that's what Dragon Tail does, even if you don't have Stealth Rock up.

I've seen Abamosnow run SD set, and even mixed SD since Blizzard is so good. ( Ice shard, SD, Blizzard/Earthquake & Woody Hammer) so yeah, Abamosnow is also a mixed attacker. And yes, it's not completely outclassed because of it's unique typing and ability. However all of its rolls can specifically be used by another Mega pokemon better, as explained in my previous comment. Again, it's not bad and I can easily see it in C+ because of unique typing, unique ability and unique coverage.

Isa Simple covered it better (Surprise, since he actually uses it and I haven't), but no, it really isn't comparable to those Megas at all, and I don't see where you're getting the idea it is. Better criticisms of it are that it's slow and doubly weak to both Fire and Fighting, which can allow surprise coverage moves to annihilate it.

I'd argue that it doesn't fill all of the roles in one. It can't fill defensive Defog while at the same time being defensive/Offensive SD. It does have a multiple flaws though.
1. Weak to common offensive types, mitigating the useful ness of defensive SD. Rock, Electric, Fire whitch are all pretty common
2. Weak to Stealth rock
3. Sustainable to burn, and isn't really going to be doing a lot after one.
4. Lacks priority (Quick attack doesn't count)
5. It's not going to be hitting hard right of the bat, as a defensive set up sweeper it's pretty easy for pokemon to come in and hit it hard.
6. No high, viable BP moves

I actually rarely see Rock coverage used, probably in part because so many threats resist it and so few are weak to it. Electric coverage is also uncommon, in no small part because multiple things normally weak to it are immune, or at least neutral. Only Fire remains common, and that basically says it's a great partner with Heatran. Stealth Rock weakness is more of an issue, but it's not a crippling flaw -note that the D rank description says crippling flaws. Rattling off a list of flaws isn't necessarily providing any crippling flaws, and having multiple flaws is, again, a part of the C-rank description.

If you'd care to argue that one or more of these is, in fact, a crippling flaw, rather than a set of manageable flaws, you can go ahead, but it looks to me like you completely missed the "crippling" part of "crippling flaws". I could rattle off a list of flaws for pretty much anything that isn't Steel Dragonite, of similar length, but that wouldn't be an argument that Ghost Tyranitar should be D rank, because having flaws isn't necessarily hamstringing a Pokemon. (And may well be keeping otherwise overly powerful Pokemon at a balanced level)

A+

/

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When you think offensive Ground type, this should be the first thing that pops into your mind. Ground Mega Gyarados has a lot to offer as a Mega: 2 useful pre-Mega abilities in Moxie and Intimidate, an insane attack stat of 155, plenty of bulk on both sides of the spectrum, and is slightly faster than other Dragon Dancers like Mega Altaria and Dragonite. Ground typing adds an Electric immunity without adding any new weaknesses, as well as giving Gyarados STAB Earthquake. Mold Breaker goes well with the newfound STAB, nailing Levitators who feel safe running a Steel typing and allowing Gyarados to break through Unaware mons like Clefable. The only downside here is the weakness to Grass and Fighting (Bug is not a common attacking type).

Also weak to Fairy, which isn't terrible but the current description is strictly inaccurate.

Alright so I'm looking for comments about the temporary list before they are added to the main list, especially from the top guys.

Things I'd want changed...

-I'd honestly list Mew with no specific type. It most commonly runs Dark, but it really can do a tremendous variety of things, both in terms of movepool and typing, and the lack of imagination applied to it is not, in my opinion, an accurate reflection of its full potential.

-Maybe lower Grass Charizard's rank. (A-? B+?) It's hard-walled by Flying Heatran (Even Focus Blast is no longer adequate coverage, and now it's neutral to the Sun-boosted Fire moves Heatran can toss back), it's weak to Talonflame's Brave Birds and the Poison coverage carried by various Pokemon to deal with Fairies... it hits really hard, and in particular is a great wallbreaker since multiple walls are usually weak to either its Fire STAB or its STAB Solarbeam, but it is surprisingly narrow in its utility, eats your Mega slot, and is readily revenged by multiple popular revengers. The fact that a lot of Fire types are better at using Sun to kill it than it is at using the Sun to kill them also hurts. EDIT: It only later occurred to me another problem with it: even though Solarbeam is STAB ultra effective against Water Hippowdon, Hippowdon switching in switches the weather, so once Charizard has Mega Evolved it's free to switch in without fear and can either stay in (If Fire Blast was used or the like), or switch to something that doesn't fear a half-strength Solar Beam afterward, all while chipping Charizard with Sandstorm over two turns.

-Slash Dark for Gengar too? Maybe?

I also dunno if Water Dragalge is really A- material, but I've never even seen it, so I'm not willing to comment on that.

Otherwise it seems a solid first draft to me.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'm not really grasping any of the comparisons being made for Mega Abomasnow.
Sharing the same role does not make any two pokemon comparable. For instance, Crawdaunt and Hawlucha are both Swords Dance sweepers, but are in no way comparable. They hit and are hit by completely different things. The two have so many differences and are not even remotely interchangeable.
Similarly Mega Abomasnow can't be compared to pretty much any of those megas mentioned.

If you want to compare Mega Abomasnow to something, I'd suggest Kyurem Black.
- Both have respectable bulk.
- They both have strong mixed offenses.
- They are both Ice type.
- They both can use High Base Power Moves for STAB and coverage. Kyub: Draco Meteor, Fusion Bolt, Outrage. Mega Abo: Leaf Storm, Blizzard, Wood Hammer, Earthquake.

Advantages to Kyurem Black:
- Can Hold an Item to boost its speed.
- Has more reliable recovery.
- Doesn't take a mega slot.
- Terravolt + Earth Power.
- Higher speed.
- Electric coverage in Fusion Bolt.
- Dragon STAB, general benefits of Dragon typing.

Advantages to Mega Abomasnow:
- Access to Swords Dance.
- Access to priority.
- Offensive pseudo recovery in Giga Drain.
- Grass STAB, general benefits of Grass typing.
- Physical Ice STAB in Avalanche.
- Hail damage.
- Higher BP special STAB due to Hail.

Both have their advantages and can fulfill similar roles. But their typing is still more than enough to separate them even without the advantages stated advantages.
Ice/Grass/Steel is very different to Ice/Dragon/Ground or Ice/Dragon/Electric (or I think I've seen 1 fighting). With a 3rd typing it is so hard to make comparisons in this meta when only 1 typing is the same. And in most the comparisons made between Mega Abo and other Megas there are 0 shared in typings.


Mega Abomasnow is one of the (if not the) only pokemon that can check all 3 S rank pokemon.

I know this isn't the best scenario but if Mega Abomasnow led against any of the S rank pokemon, the only things it would lose too are Focus Blast Landorus and Fire Punch Dragonite.

For more realistic scenarios:
- Manaphy forces something out.
- Mega Abomasnow switches in while Manaphy does what ever its heart desires.
- Mega Abomasnow 2HKOs with Blizzard and Manaphy fails to 2HKO even at +3. (Even if M-Abo comes in on SR, or is burnt by the 1st Scald.

- Landorus-I forces something out.
- Mega Abomasnow switches in while Landorus does anything other than Earth Power, Calm Mind or Focus Blast. (Dark Knock Off + Earth Power has like a 1% chance to 2HKO).
- Mega Abomasnow OHKOs with Blizzard while Landorus fails to kill Abo (unless it has focus blast which is generally not used on Dark Landorus and competes with Knock Off, Calm Mid, and Rock Polish and Poison Landorus).
- Note: You are safer just revenge killing than switching in. Can use protect to scout for Focus Blast and rack up Hail damage.

- Dragonite forces something out.
- Mega Abomasnow switches in while Dragonite does what ever its heart desires (unless its heart desires to run and use Fire Punch).
- Hail breaks Multiscale.
- Mega Abomasnow OHKOs with Blizzard while Dragonite fails to kill Abo (unless again it had Fire Punch).
- Note: Can use protect to scout for Fire Punch and rack up Hail damage.

So Mega Abomasnow is a very strong Manaphy counter, a strong Dragonite check, and a decent Landorus-I check.
It makes up for using the team's mega slot, by putting less pressure on the team to find checks to these monsters.
Checking the 3 S rank mons to me is reason enough to be at least B-. So the fact that it is one of the extremely few Ice STAB users and also has Grass STAB to hit the many Water types and a couple options to hit steel type, Mega Abomasnow to me is easily deserving of B+ or B at least. Immunity to Spore and Leech Seed is good too.


Just to clarify, Kyurem Black has a far harder time checking these threats:
It can't switch in on Dragonite's Outrage, or if it is Electric Kyub it is outsped and killed by +1 Dragonites EQ, unless scarfed. Also Ice Beam doesn't even OHKO which means you can be 2HKOed by things like Iron head or Dragon Claw before you may get a chance to KO Dragonite.

Landorus OHKOs with Focus blast, OHKOs Electric Kyub with Earth power, 2HKOs either Kyub with Sludge Bomb if Poison. Scarfed Kyub can revenge if Landorus isn't Rock polish.

Scarfed Ground Kyurem can't even 2HKO Manaphy without Draco. Ground Kyurem is OHKOed by Ice Beam at +3. Electric Kyub is more afraid of Scald Burns. If you are by chance running Scarf Draco Meteor on Electric Kyub this is your best bet. LO Electric Kyub can't come in on TG or is outsped and 2HKOed by Ice Beam.

Let me know if I made any mistakes or if anything is unclear or false. I just realised how much I wrote and don't have time to proof read right know and what not but I'm just gonna throw it out there anyway.

Mega Abomasnow to B+!

Alright it's time to debunk this. Here's a TL;DR:
Mega Abamosnow is outclassed in the metagame, all of its sets can be used to some extent better by other pokemon. It's not a powerhouse so there's no niche there, it had a niche in starting hail in fifth gen but perma weather is gone so no niche there, it's very slow with only access to priority in Ice shard so it's easily revenge killed by fire types. It's not very good in a metagame filled with steel types, notably Heatran (Full one 100% counter). Mega Abamosnow checks two OU S ranks, MAltaria & Landorus-I and yet he's not even in the rankings, you want to know why? Because there are pokemon who can do that better. And the same applies to this metagame

Lets take a look at Mega Abamosnow and all of its sets, and we're going in depth here.

So the first set I found was All-Out-Attacker Snowman, and keep in mind we're not trying to nominate Abamosnow for D rank here, we're nominating it for C+ rank. It has a use in the metagame, but it's not centralising in the slightest, it's the best of the worse

Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 8 HP / 160 Atk / 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 80 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Blizzard
- Earthquake

This is the first set. It's mixed, all out attcker. This set is pretty much outclassed by Kyurem-B, Cube is stronger & faster. Its ability to run items also greatly benefit Cube, as no matter what Abamosnow invests it Cube can run Choice specs/band to outdamage it, while also running LO to be generally more powerful. Outclassed as an "All-out-attacker" by Cube, but is still viable as its not SR weak. Also walled by Heatran

Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Second set, SD. Ice shard isn't very good in the meta considering the plethora of steel types and fire types trying to deal with them. Grass is a pretty poor offensive typing regardless and in a metagame where Fire, ground and fighting dominates SLOW SD pokemon kinda. suck. Scizor is a better slow physical attacking, Swords dancing mega pokemon with priority. Outclassed, but Scizor and Abomosnow hit different things so there's still a niche but Scizor is just... better.


Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 8 HP / 68 Atk / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Mild Nature
- Focus Blast
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Blizzard

Specially oriented mixed Abomosnow. This probably is the best set for Abomosnow in HT as you can use. There's very little that that can take on Focus Blast, Blizzard and Giga drain (Except Steel Mega Venusaur and Flying heatran, on the top of my mind) Its still slow, easy to revenge kill, not very poweful. Generally you can run other special attackers who can do a better job in beating defensive cores, [Insert powerful special attacker here]

I don't see where you're even coming from here? The same thing that outclass Abomosnow in OU still outclass it, it's still slow and mediocrely powerful especially with the power creep. Putting it in B+ is insane! It doesn't gain a lot in Hidden type, not enough to make it B+. And it just checks the S ranks. Dragonite can beat it if it carries Fire punch or superpower, Manaphy can use a bulky Calm mind version to beat it and Landorus-I OHKOs with Focus blast and has a chance to OHKO with Earth power after rocks. C+ rank is even giving it a lot.

Oh, and something else.

Nominating Keldeo for S rank

Keldeo basically has two typings I've seen it use Ground and Steel. Specs can be used to like it's used in OU going in and out and spamming Scald and secret sword.

But what really makes Keldeo S rank is Sub Calm mind. I've been using Steel Sub CM Keldeo. It's neutral to Fairy, Psychic, Flying and Grass which is amazing. It sets up on Mega Venusaur as your sub survives a Giga drain after +1. It's simply amazing how easily you can set up. I'm pretty exhaused at the moment but I don't feel like this will be a hard submission as there's few arguments against this nomination. I love all the discussion on the page atm.

 

[DarkeKnight]

While I rarely get into the top 10, I've probably played the most games in the meta. Here's my thoughts on a bunch of Pokemon, though I don't really know what rank they'll fit in: Was going to post about different Pokemon, ended up doing only Volcarona. Sleepy now, so maybe I"ll post about other Pokemon tomorrow.

Volcarona:
I've used this for a while and it's pretty amazing. While Steel is probably the best typing for it, I used Grass for STAB Giga Drain. If you add in rocks support, at +1, very, very few things can stop it. Namely Heatran, Chansey, and Talonflame(Only Banded Talonflame OHKOs if you use Steel Volcarona though.). And Talonflame can't switch in either, so it's more of a check. And to be honest, the only reason I included Talonflame here is that it has Super Effective Priority against Grass Volcarona while I don't anything else does. Mega Pinsir I guess? Yeah, Mega Pinsir does too. Note that a lot of these calcs are probably pointless, I'm just randomly picking out Pokemon from the thread as I can't think of anything that stops it.
So basically:
Counters: Heatran, Chansey
Checks: Talonflame, Mega Pinsir(Both check only Grass Volcarona though), Fire Mega Altaria(If you're Steel and rocks aren't up)


Dragonite:

Dragonite to take a hit using Multiscale?
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 143-170 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
Add in rocks:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 286-339 (88.5 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Dragonite can't switch in. Send out Dragonite after something faints? Well, if your opponent has rocks up, you'll probably die.
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 313-369 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Altaria:

Steel Altaria:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 274-325 (94.1 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fire Altaria:
The calculator's annoying since I can't add three types. I had to make a program to calculated weaknesses. <.<
Anyway, Fire Mega Altaria 4x resists all three STABs meaning..
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 77-92(26.4 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
BUT! If you have rocks up, it loses 50% of its HP on the switch in. Meaning it can't switch in at all as it would be KO'd before it could attack.

So let's say it is sent out after sacking something:
Altaria's attacks:
If you use Steel Volcarona:
Earthquake: 86.5% - 102%
Fire Blast: 33.4% - 39.4%
If you use Grass Volcarona:
Earthquake: 39.1% - 46.2%
Fire Blast: 33.4% - 39.4%

So if you use Grass, then unless you've taken prior damage, you can still kill off Altaria.

Mew:

Listing only neutral/resisted hits. Anything else is OHKO'd by one move or the other. And the only thing Mew can actually do is Thunder Wave or for whatever reason Transform.
Fire/Flying/Poison/Fighting/Ghost:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 231-274 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Victini:
Including this here mainly since it always seemed to stop my Volcarona in AAA:

Electric:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Fighting:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Other calcs:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy(Grass): 647-764 (189.7 - 224%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus(Unresisted): 347-409 (108.7 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2(Ghost): 142-169 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges(Grass): 307-361 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B(Electric): 313-370 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Magnezone(Flying): 486-577 (141.2 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine(Steel): 165-195 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 176-210 (52.5 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Volcarona can just take the hit and Giga Drain back it's HP.

And all of this is just at +1. Fiery Dance has a 50% chance of boosting Sp. Atk. So yeah, that's terrifying.

tl;dr: Don't let Volcarona set up or have Heatran/Chansey on your team.

 

[Skankovich]

I think HP Flying Empoleon should be given a similar rank to HP Steel Mantine. Mantine is a little bulkier specially but empoleon has far better physical bulk and offensive presence, along with Stealth Rock. Also doesn't get Haze, but does get Roar.

I've been having fun trying out this meta using stall, it's really difficult but I'm having some success. I think Grass Florges is kind of underrated, resistances to dragon/ground/water/fighting while being immune to status is really handy, and on top of that it functions as a solid wincon. Also deals with Dark Mew for stall, and has a decent offensive presence off of base 112 spattk

Quagsire is also so so good, with curse it deals with a lot of troublesome physical attackers while acting as a backup wincon.

 

[Klang]

All right, I've been busy with work and there's way too much discussion to catch up with. Here is a list of what I think A rank is looking like right now:

A+

Fire Altaria(Mega)

Electric Gardevoir(Mega)

Water Gliscor

Ground Gyarados(Mega)

Flying/Grass Heatran

Water Hippowdon

Electric Lopunny(Mega)

A

Grass Charizard(Mega Y)

Dark Charizard(Mega X)

Dark Diggersby

Water/Dragon/Steel Clefable

Fighting Crawdaunt

Electric Gengar

Ground Keldeo

Water/Dark Mew

Fighting/Ground Pinsir(Mega)

Steel Rotom Wash

Water/Electric/Dragon Skarmory

Steel Tornadus-Therian

Flying/Ghost Tyranitar

Ghost Umbreon

A-

Water Dragalge

Water Landorus-Therian

Dark Mamoswine

Fire Manectric(Mega)

Poison Scrafty

Steel Thundurus

I mostly agree with this list, though I do disagree with a few things:

Comments

Poison is Skarmory's best typing in my opinion and should definitely be back up there. It may seem insignificant as it gains a bunch of unnecessary 8x resists which never help, but the main change is swapping a psychic resist for a fighting resist, which is absolutely huge because quite frankly physical psychic types don't exist (And the two that do exist have stronger Fighting STAB, so you're still doing yourself a favor if you're worried about them) and the fighting resist allows it to do something very important, which is counter Fighting Pinsir-Mega, who can otherwise absolutely rip stall teams apart. The Poison typing also allows it to check Landorus-I in a pinch if it hasn't set up gravity yet / does not have Gravity, which is also significant. I realize this will make Skarmory have 4 typings and that's probably a bit much, and Electric should probably go. Electric makes Skarm neutral to electric, but quite frankly Magnezone is frying it anyway and it still won't be able to take on electric attackers regardless meaning the typing has no real niche.

Ghost Umbreon quite frankly isn't that great and I'm not sure why it's in A. I mean its typing is pretty decent as it lacks weaknesses, but it's barely improved from its standard self and the typing doesn't really add any new dynamic to the Pokemon. It still has no offensive presence outside of Foul Play and Toxic which can be taken advantage of (especially considering all the steel types which are immune to toxic in the tier), and is steamrolled by most higher tiered Pokemon (though it does do well against Dragonite).

Thundurus without Grass is completely walled by Gliscor so I think Grass should be slashed.

Dark Gengar is probably worse than Electric but as I've mentioned before the Knock Off neutrality allows it to stallbreak far better and give it a better STAB to spam considering the 20% flinch chance can win games. Both of these factors also allow it to break specially defensive Gliscor which walls it otherwise.

Electric allows Charizard-X to rip right through Water Clefable and Flying Heatran with Thunderpunch which gives it enough reason to be slashed in in my opinion.

I'm not sure why Keldeo is Ground honestly. The coverage doesn't really help it get past anything that's walling it otherwise, and deprives it of the opportunity to run other typings which help it set up, namely Steel and Ghost. Steel I've seen Jernmax use which provides it with a toxic immunity and a neutrality to flying among other things, which allows it to evade the Talonflame revenge kill as well. The ton of resistances brought by steel offer it the opportunity to set up on many other Pokemon as well. Ghost on the other hand allows it to set up all over Ghost Chansey which does not care about it whatsoever otherwise, and as most Stall teams depend on Chansey as their Keldeo counter, allows it to utterly decimate unprepared teams.

I'm also not sure why Electric Gardevoir is that high. It's a rather poor Mega compared to everything else in that rank, and while it's good it's just a tad too highly ranked in my opinion. A- sounds like a nice place for it.

Now for some defensive Pokemon Nominations:

Nominations

Ghost Chansey to A-

I'm not sure why this hasn't been mentioned yet, as Ghost Chansey is one of the two major cornerstones of stall teams, the other being Clefable. The Knock Off weakness is really insignificant as if you're staying in on Knock Off without Ghost your Chansey is dead in the first place, and in exchange it no longer fears Pokemon which Stall once had tremendous problems with such as Keldeo (without Ghost SubCM), and other Pokemon which otherwise wallbreak the entire tier such as Ghost/Normal Porygon-Z and Grass Manaphy (Without Rain Dance, but Grass Manaphy really doesn't have the room to give up a coverage slot just to beat Chansey). Basically, it's as amazing as it is in standard with a bunch of extra perks, and considering it's already B+ in standard I think A- is more than fair for it.

Ground / Steel Mega Slowbro to A+

Double dance Mega Slowbro is amazing in this metagame, and it can pretty much come in on two thirds of the tier and set up Iron Defenses or Calm Minds directly in their faces without fear thanks to shell armor. It completely hard counters otherwise extremely dangerous pokemon such as Dragonite and Fire Altaria, uses them as set-up fodder to boot, and after a few boosts can be nearly unstoppable. The only thing holding it back is Grass Manaphy, and once that's no longer an issue Mega Bro can sweep entire teams. In fact, just looking at the current placeholder list, after a calm mind only a select handful of Pokemon from everything in that list can stand up to Groundbro and force it out. It has to be used to be believed really, as most people are unprepared for it and it's absolutely amazing in this metagame.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Ghoul King, the thing that makes Dragalge so great is its tremendous wallbreaking power. It already has access to 2 high BP STABs in Sludge Wave and Draco Meteor, and with STAB Adaptability-boosted Hydro Pump, it becomes freakishly scary as a wallbreaker. Basically, slap Specs on it and watch everything slower than it bar some really bulky Pokemon like Chansey, die. AV Steel Tangrowth seems like a good stop to it too though (it can't carry HP Fire if it carries Water IVs). Other than that, it pretty much nukes everything, an insane wallbreaker with 3 high power Adaptability-boosted STABs. Defensively, it removes the Ice weakness while adding no new weaknesses. This is why it is A- Rank.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Dark Wobbuffet - Can't remember what this was nommed to, I think it was B- ish.

Dark Wobbuffet hasn't been nominated at all actually, since I don't know anyone beside me uses it.

After using it until now, I'd like to nominate Dark Feraligatr for B.

It may seem inferior to other Dragon Dancers like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados or Mega Altaria, but this thing has a very important selling point. I've mentioned this before, but It's main dual STAB, Waterfall and Crunch, is as powerful as Mega Altaria's Return.

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 280-331 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 277-328 (43.1 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Water/Dark provide good neutral coverage too. It also has kinda ok defenses of 85/100/83, so it can at least take a hit.

Other moves include Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Aqua Jet, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Superpower. Not all of the moves got boosted by Sheer Force, but they provide nice coverage. There is also Focus Blast and Ice Beam for anyone who run Special Attack.

It has flaws of course. 78 Speed is kinda slow, making it easily get revenged. It's also walled by things like Keldeo, Water Clefable, Azumarill. But it can be a nice replacement if you want a strong Dragon Dancer like Mega Altaria or Mega Gyarados, but you used your mega slot.

 

[Isa Simple]

Alright it's time to debunk this. Here's a TL;DR:
Mega Abamosnow is outclassed in the metagame, all of its sets can be used to some extent better by other pokemon. It's not a powerhouse so there's no niche there, it had a niche in starting hail in fifth gen but perma weather is gone so no niche there, it's very slow with only access to priority in Ice shard so it's easily revenge killed by fire types. It's not very good in a metagame filled with steel types, notably Heatran (Full one 100% counter). Mega Abamosnow checks two OU S ranks, MAltaria & Landorus-I and yet he's not even in the rankings, you want to know why? Because there are pokemon who can do that better. And the same applies to this metagame

Lets take a look at Mega Abamosnow and all of its sets, and we're going in depth here.

So the first set I found was All-Out-Attacker Snowman, and keep in mind we're not trying to nominate Abamosnow for D rank here, we're nominating it for C+ rank. It has a use in the metagame, but it's not centralising in the slightest, it's the best of the worse

Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 8 HP / 160 Atk / 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 80 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Blizzard
- Earthquake

This is the first set. It's mixed, all out attcker. This set is pretty much outclassed by Kyurem-B, Cube is stronger & faster. Its ability to run items also greatly benefit Cube, as no matter what Abamosnow invests it Cube can run Choice specs/band to outdamage it, while also running LO to be generally more powerful. Outclassed as an "All-out-attacker" by Cube, but is still viable as its not SR weak. Also walled by Heatran

Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Second set, SD. Ice shard isn't very good in the meta considering the plethora of steel types and fire types trying to deal with them. Grass is a pretty poor offensive typing regardless and in a metagame where Fire, ground and fighting dominates SLOW SD pokemon kinda. suck. Scizor is a better slow physical attacking, Swords dancing mega pokemon with priority. Outclassed, but Scizor and Abomosnow hit different things so there's still a niche but Scizor is just... better.


Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 8 HP / 68 Atk / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Mild Nature
- Focus Blast
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Blizzard

Specially oriented mixed Abomosnow. This probably is the best set for Abomosnow in HT as you can use. There's very little that that can take on Focus Blast, Blizzard and Giga drain (Except Steel Mega Venusaur and Flying heatran, on the top of my mind) Its still slow, easy to revenge kill, not very poweful. Generally you can run other special attackers who can do a better job in beating defensive cores, [Insert powerful special attacker here]

I don't see where you're even coming from here? The same thing that outclass Abomosnow in OU still outclass it, it's still slow and mediocrely powerful especially with the power creep. Putting it in B+ is insane! It doesn't gain a lot in Hidden type, not enough to make it B+. And it just checks the S ranks. Dragonite can beat it if it carries Fire punch or superpower, Manaphy can use a bulky Calm mind version to beat it and Landorus-I OHKOs with Focus blast and has a chance to OHKO with Earth power after rocks. C+ rank is even giving it a lot.

Oh, and something else.

Nominating Keldeo for S rank

Keldeo basically has two typings I've seen it use Ground and Steel. Specs can be used to like it's used in OU going in and out and spamming Scald and secret sword.

But what really makes Keldeo S rank is Sub Calm mind. I've been using Steel Sub CM Keldeo. It's neutral to Fairy, Psychic, Flying and Grass which is amazing. It sets up on Mega Venusaur as your sub survives a Giga drain after +1. It's simply amazing how easily you can set up. I'm pretty exhaused at the moment but I don't feel like this will be a hard submission as there's few arguments against this nomination. I love all the discussion on the page atm.

I think its best to just let the committee decide on this things placement now, so I'll only touch on a few things cause I want to make some other noms:

"Mega Abamosnow checks two OU S ranks, MAltaria & Landorus-I and yet he's not even in the rankings, you want to know why? Because there are pokemon who can do that better. And the same applies to this meta game."

The 3 S rank pokemon, particularly Steel Dragonite, are very hard to check and put a lot of limitations on team building. If there are pokemon who can check these 3 better than Mega Abomasnow please share as I would love to use them.
The 1st set you mentioned isn't as outclassed as you say it is. A choice locked Kyurem is just as easy to revenge as M-Abo, and the idea of LO making Kyub generally more powerful is false, as they do the same damage with their Ice stabs, which is the main reason for using them (well M-Abo does 0.5% more but lol):
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
But when you factor in Hail damage Mega Abomasnow is in fact stronger.
"Grass is a pretty poor offensive typing regardless and in a metagame where Fire, ground and fighting dominates SLOW SD pokemon kinda."
How does the prevalence of Ground types make Abo and its Grass STAB poor?

Anyway like I said, I'm pretty sure we've covered most arguments for and against Abo's placement to I'll let The Immortal and gud 'ol Jacky D take it from here.

Time for a few noms:

Steel Mantine to A- / B+

Steel Mantine is a very surprisingly strong pokemon in this meta. Its next level Special Defense allows it to take on a plethora of special attackers, and it has the move pool to make strong use walling capabilities. Its new found SR neutrality make it a fantastic Defog user as it finds plenty of opportunities to come in a clear hazards thanks to its fantastic SpD and large pool of resistances and immunities. Its access to STAB Scald is great for it as it is one of the most spammable moves in the game, and forces physical attackers to think twice before coming to threaten Mantine out. The burn chance also allows it to wear down special attackers faster than they can wear down you, or you can Toxic them. Its Access to Haze stops it from being set up bait and makes it once of the best Grass Manaphy counters. Its few weaknesses are easily patched up by, its team mates, by nature of the archetype it is found on, stall / semi stall. Its lack of recovery is far less relevant without the SR weakness and with Wish Pass being mandatory on Stall in this meta for scouting. Its poor physical bulk is also patched up by Scald and the fact that Stall teams always have multiple physical walls. Lastly the only weakness, being a 4x electric weakness is easily taken by Ground types.

Water / Steel / Poison Mega Sableye to A / A-

Mega Sableye is still the king of stall. If you don't have a pokemon to break this, it will 6-0 you by itself every time. The addition of an extra typing makes Mega Sableye even harder to deal with as it has 3 viable options, and all of which shake up its checks and counters, and if you predict wrong, it gets a free Calm Mind. Its ability to prevent hazards being set up on his teams side of the field as well as spin block is outstanding in this meta as it makes it easy for you to scout the opponents typing while making it an extremely hard task for them to do to you.

Grass Alomomola to B / B-

Alomomola retains a strong niche in this meta as being a fantastic Physical wall and wish passer. The combination of Wish + Protect is one of the best methods of scouting for moves and types and is mandatory on stall. Alomomola is arguable the best wish passer thanks to its ability in Regenerator, healing itself and a partner every time it passes a wish. Grass / Water is outstanding typing with all of its weaknesses coverde by just a single mono Steel type. Alomomola takes physical hits like a boss, scouts, keeps the team and itself healthy, and is still able to apply with that little gem called STAB Scald, as well as Toxic.

Dark Mega Metagross to A-

Mega Metagross is noticeably worse in this meta game. There are just so many steel types running around to resist Meteor Mash, Zen Head butt and Grass Knot, while its coverage options to hit steels are not as strong as they were in standard OU. However, Mega Metagross now holds the niche of being the game best Pursuit trapper. Its 110 base speed however not as necessary as in standards, still allows it to out speed and force out so many threats, and as they are forced out they take substantial damage from Pursuit even on neutral hits thanks to 145 base attack, Tough Claws and STAB. Dark typing allows patches up Metagross' Dark and Ghost weaknesses, though replaces them with Fighting and Bug. Dark Mega Metagross is a fast and powerful threat in this meta, that has enough utility to form some strong cores, and can cause a lot of grief to all archetypes.

I think that'll be all for now.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Dark Wobbuffet hasn't been nominated at all actually, since I don't know anyone beside me uses it.

After using it until now, I'd like to nominate Dark Feraligatr for B.

It may seem inferior to other Dragon Dancers like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados or Mega Altaria, but this thing has a very important selling point. I've mentioned this before, but It's main dual STAB, Waterfall and Crunch, is as powerful as Mega Altaria's Return.

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 280-331 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 277-328 (43.1 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Water/Dark provide good neutral coverage too. It also has kinda ok defenses of 85/100/83, so it can at least take a hit.

Other moves include Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Aqua Jet, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Superpower. Not all of the moves got boosted by Sheer Force, but they provide nice coverage. There is also Focus Blast and Ice Beam for anyone who run Special Attack.

It has flaws of course. 78 Speed is kinda slow, making it easily get revenged. It's also walled by things like Keldeo, Water Clefable, Azumarill. But it can be a nice replacement if you want a strong Dragon Dancer like Mega Altaria or Mega Gyarados, but you used your mega slot.

Don't forget, Chansey runs Ghost so you can either demolish it with STAB Crunch or get a free Dragon Dance off as it switches out. I have used this and I also definitely think it is worthy of B Rank. It can even take an unboosted Energy Ball from Manaphy iirc, allowing it to Dragon Dance and kill it.

 

[I like donkeys]

I mostly agree with this list, though I do disagree with a few things:

Comments

Poison is Skarmory's best typing in my opinion and should definitely be back up there. It may seem insignificant as it gains a bunch of unnecessary 8x resists which never help, but the main change is swapping a psychic resist for a fighting resist, which is absolutely huge because quite frankly physical psychic types don't exist (And the two that do exist have stronger Fighting STAB, so you're still doing yourself a favor if you're worried about them) and the fighting resist allows it to do something very important, which is counter Fighting Pinsir-Mega, who can otherwise absolutely rip stall teams apart. The Poison typing also allows it to check Landorus-I in a pinch if it hasn't set up gravity yet / does not have Gravity, which is also significant. I realize this will make Skarmory have 4 typings is that's probably a bit much, and Electric should probably go. It makes it neutral to electric, but quite frankly Magnezone is frying it anyway and it still won't be able to take on electric attackers regardless meaning the typing has no real niche.

Ghost Umbreon quite frankly isn't that great and I'm not sure why it's in A. I mean its typing is pretty decent as it lacks weaknesses, but it's barely improved from its standard self and the typing doesn't really add any new dynamic to the Pokemon. It still has no offensive presence outside of Foul Play and Toxic which can be taken advantage of (especially considering all the steel types which are immune to toxic in the tier), and is steamrolled by most higher tiered Pokemon (though it does do well against Dragonite).

Thundurus without Grass is completely walled by Gliscor so I think Grass should be slashed.

Dark Gengar is probably worse than Electric but as I've mentioned before the Knock Off neutrality allows it to stallbreak far better and give it a better STAB to spam considering the 20% flinch chance can win games. Both of these factors also allow it to break specially defensive Gliscor which walls it otherwise.

Electric allows Charizard-X to rip right through Water Clefable and Flying Heatran with Thunderpunch which gives it enough reason to be slashed in in my opinion.

I'm not sure why Keldeo is Ground honestly. The coverage doesn't really help it get past anything that's walling it otherwise, and deprives it of the opportunity to run other typings which help it set up, namely Steel and Ghost. Steel I've seen Jernmax use which provides it with a toxic immunity and a neutrality to flying among other things, which allows it to evade the Talonflame revenge kill as well. The ton of resistances brought by steel offer it the opportunity to set up on many other Pokemon as well. Ghost on the other hand allows it to set up all over Ghost Chansey which does not care about it whatsoever otherwise, and as most Stall teams depend on Chansey as their Keldeo counter, allows it to utterly decimate unprepared teams.

I'm also not sure why Electric Gardevoir is that high. It's a rather poor Mega compared to everything else in that rank, and while it's good it's just a tad too highly ranked in my opinion. A- sounds like a nice place for it.

Now for some defensive Pokemon Nominations:

Nominations

Ghost Chansey to A-

I'm not sure why this hasn't been mentioned yet, as Ghost Chansey is one of the two major cornerstones of stall teams, the other being Clefable. The Knock Off weakness is really insignificant as if you're staying in on Knock Off without Ghost your Chansey is dead in the first place, and in exchange it no longer fears Pokemon which Stall once had tremendous problems with such as Keldeo (without Ghost SubCM), and other Pokemon which otherwise wallbreak the entire tier such as Ghost/Normal Porygon-Z and Grass Manaphy (Without Rain Dance, but Grass Manaphy really doesn't have the room to give up a coverage slot just to beat Chansey). Basically, it's as amazing as it is in standard with a bunch of extra perks, and considering it's already B+ in standard I think A- is more than fair for it.

Ground Mega Slowbro to A+

Double dance Mega Slowbro is amazing in this metagame, and it can pretty much come in on two thirds of the tier and set up Iron Defenses or Calm Minds directly in their faces without fear thanks to shell armor. It completely hard counters otherwise extremely dangerous pokemon such as Dragonite and Fire Altaria, uses them as set-up fodder to boot, and after a few boosts can be nearly unstoppable. The only thing holding it back is Grass Manaphy, and once that's no longer an issue Mega Bro can sweep entire teams. In fact, just looking at the current placeholder list, after a calm mind only a select handful of Pokemon from everything in that list can stand up to Groundbro and force it out. It has to be used to be believed really, as most people are unprepared for it and it's absolutely amazing in this metagame.

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't steel Mega Bro be better? Since the one thing it feared the most in standard OU was toxic (the calm mind variants of course).

 

[Klang]

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't steel Mega Bro be better? Since the one thing it feared the most in standard OU was toxic (the calm mind variants of course).

Steel is an option (which I guess I should list lol), but the earthquake weakness really hinders its ability to go head to head with Dragonite, needing close to full health to do so:

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Slowbro: 220-260 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

In addition to this, electric and ground coverage are extremely common in the metagame and using Steel Bro will limit set-up opportunities such as non-crunch ground Gyarados, Electric Mega Garde, Steel Thundurus, Electric Kyurem-B, and Fire Mega Manectric, all of which are rather common Pokemon. In exchange you gain a toxic immunity, but toxic isn't really common in the metagame in the first place, even on stall teams, since the abundance of steel types is really limiting effective use of the move.

It does have the advantage of having good odds of beating Manaphy if it switches in on Bro while it calm minds, however.

 

[Throbulator36]

Dark Wobbuffet hasn't been nominated at all actually, since I don't know anyone beside me uses it.

After using it until now, I'd like to nominate Dark Feraligatr for B.

It may seem inferior to other Dragon Dancers like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados or Mega Altaria, but this thing has a very important selling point. I've mentioned this before, but It's main dual STAB, Waterfall and Crunch, is as powerful as Mega Altaria's Return.

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 280-331 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 277-328 (43.1 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Water/Dark provide good neutral coverage too. It also has kinda ok defenses of 85/100/83, so it can at least take a hit.

Other moves include Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Aqua Jet, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Superpower. Not all of the moves got boosted by Sheer Force, but they provide nice coverage. There is also Focus Blast and Ice Beam for anyone who run Special Attack.

It has flaws of course. 78 Speed is kinda slow, making it easily get revenged. It's also walled by things like Keldeo, Water Clefable, Azumarill. But it can be a nice replacement if you want a strong Dragon Dancer like Mega Altaria or Mega Gyarados, but you used your mega slot.

what exactly does feraligatr have over crawdaunt other than its irrelevantly higher speed tier

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-369 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

This chansey is getting hit neutrally btw. I mean megados has MB and stab earthquake with nearly unresisted coverage but feral is simply outclassed.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

what exactly does feraligatr have over crawdaunt other than its irrelevantly higher speed tier

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-369 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

This chansey is getting hit neutrally btw. I mean megados has MB and stab earthquake with nearly unresisted coverage but feral is simply outclassed.

Feraligatr's 85/100/83's bulk is much better than Crawdaunt's 63/85/55. Also 55 Speed won't outspeed anything. While Crawdaunt has higher Attack, Feraligatr has higher stats in every other things. I think Crawdaunt is more suited to be a wallbreaker, while Feraligatr is more like a sweeper.

 

[Jack Dalton]

I mostly agree with this list, though I do disagree with a few things:

Comments

Poison is Skarmory's best typing in my opinion and should definitely be back up there. It may seem insignificant as it gains a bunch of unnecessary 8x resists which never help, but the main change is swapping a psychic resist for a fighting resist, which is absolutely huge because quite frankly physical psychic types don't exist (And the two that do exist have stronger Fighting STAB, so you're still doing yourself a favor if you're worried about them) and the fighting resist allows it to do something very important, which is counter Fighting Pinsir-Mega, who can otherwise absolutely rip stall teams apart. The Poison typing also allows it to check Landorus-I in a pinch if it hasn't set up gravity yet / does not have Gravity, which is also significant. I realize this will make Skarmory have 4 typings is that's probably a bit much, and Electric should probably go. It makes it neutral to electric, but quite frankly Magnezone is frying it anyway and it still won't be able to take on electric attackers regardless meaning the typing has no real niche.

Ghost Umbreon quite frankly isn't that great and I'm not sure why it's in A. I mean its typing is pretty decent as it lacks weaknesses, but it's barely improved from its standard self and the typing doesn't really add any new dynamic to the Pokemon. It still has no offensive presence outside of Foul Play and Toxic which can be taken advantage of (especially considering all the steel types which are immune to toxic in the tier), and is steamrolled by most higher tiered Pokemon (though it does do well against Dragonite).

Thundurus without Grass is completely walled by Gliscor so I think Grass should be slashed.

Dark Gengar is probably worse than Electric but as I've mentioned before the Knock Off neutrality allows it to stallbreak far better and give it a better STAB to spam considering the 20% flinch chance can win games. Both of these factors also allow it to break specially defensive Gliscor which walls it otherwise.

Electric allows Charizard-X to rip right through Water Clefable and Flying Heatran with Thunderpunch which gives it enough reason to be slashed in in my opinion.

I'm not sure why Keldeo is Ground honestly. The coverage doesn't really help it get past anything that's walling it otherwise, and deprives it of the opportunity to run other typings which help it set up, namely Steel and Ghost. Steel I've seen Jernmax use which provides it with a toxic immunity and a neutrality to flying among other things, which allows it to evade the Talonflame revenge kill as well. The ton of resistances brought by steel offer it the opportunity to set up on many other Pokemon as well. Ghost on the other hand allows it to set up all over Ghost Chansey which does not care about it whatsoever otherwise, and as most Stall teams depend on Chansey as their Keldeo counter, allows it to utterly decimate unprepared teams.

I'm also not sure why Electric Gardevoir is that high. It's a rather poor Mega compared to everything else in that rank, and while it's good it's just a tad too highly ranked in my opinion. A- sounds like a nice place for it.

Now for some defensive Pokemon Nominations:

Nominations

Ghost Chansey to A-

I'm not sure why this hasn't been mentioned yet, as Ghost Chansey is one of the two major cornerstones of stall teams, the other being Clefable. The Knock Off weakness is really insignificant as if you're staying in on Knock Off without Ghost your Chansey is dead in the first place, and in exchange it no longer fears Pokemon which Stall once had tremendous problems with such as Keldeo (without Ghost SubCM), and other Pokemon which otherwise wallbreak the entire tier such as Ghost/Normal Porygon-Z and Grass Manaphy (Without Rain Dance, but Grass Manaphy really doesn't have the room to give up a coverage slot just to beat Chansey). Basically, it's as amazing as it is in standard with a bunch of extra perks, and considering it's already B+ in standard I think A- is more than fair for it.

Ground Mega Slowbro to A+

Double dance Mega Slowbro is amazing in this metagame, and it can pretty much come in on two thirds of the tier and set up Iron Defenses or Calm Minds directly in their faces without fear thanks to shell armor. It completely hard counters otherwise extremely dangerous pokemon such as Dragonite and Fire Altaria, uses them as set-up fodder to boot, and after a few boosts can be nearly unstoppable. The only thing holding it back is Grass Manaphy, and once that's no longer an issue Mega Bro can sweep entire teams. In fact, just looking at the current placeholder list, after a calm mind only a select handful of Pokemon from everything in that list can stand up to Groundbro and force it out. It has to be used to be believed really, as most people are unprepared for it and it's absolutely amazing in this metagame.

I took Poison off of Skarmory at TI's request, actually. Everything else was implemented. Also Keldeo isn't Ground for coverage, but because being immune to Electric is important when anything not running Wisp as their status move is running Thunder Wave. Steel might be fine for a SubCM set, but for Choice sets I would take Ground any day. Ghost I'm really not sure about. What is that supposed to beat other than Ghost Chansey, who I have never even seen on an opposing team?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

what exactly does feraligatr have over crawdaunt other than its irrelevantly higher speed tier

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-369 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

This chansey is getting hit neutrally btw. I mean megados has MB and stab earthquake with nearly unresisted coverage but feral is simply outclassed.

Crawdaunt fails to outrun the 110 speed tier after a Dragon Dance, and it needs Jolly to even outrun Landorus-I. Feraligatr can outrun these Pokemon with an Adamant Nature, making it more suited to a DD role than Crawdaunt, who probably functions best as a Choice Band wallbreaker. And, that calculation shows that Feraligatr hits ALMOST as hard as Crawdaunt thanks to sheer force, with a better speed tier to boot. Their roles are different--Crawdaunt best set is probably Choice Band, with Superpower/Crabhammer/Knock Off/Crunch or Aqua Jets and Fighting IVs, whereas Feraligatr runs D-Dance/Waterfall/Crunch/Filler (Ice Punch or EQ probably) effectively. Feraligatr also boasts higher bulk, allowing it to take a hit and set up.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

So we're doing great now really fixing up the ladder. I have a suggestion, in OU viability rankings they're going down the list in an effort to clean it up, so that's what I think we should do!

Starting with S rank!

This is how the S rank should look like:
Dragonite (steel)
Manaphy (grass)
Landorus-I (poison/dark)
Keldeo (steel/ground)
Mega Altaria (fire/steel)
Heatran (flying)

We should also cut up S rank, from + to -

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

So we're doing great now really fixing up the ladder. I have a suggestion, in OU viability rankings they're going down the list in an effort to clean it up, so that's what I think we should do!

Starting with S rank!

This is how the S rank should look like:
Dragonite (steel)
Manaphy (grass)
Landorus-I (poison/dark)
Keldeo (steel/ground)
Mega Altaria (fire/steel)
Heatran (flying)

We should also cut up S rank, from + to -

Thing is, OU already has a list--our first draft isn't even finalized yet. I think just having S Rank as one thing is good enough, and I also don't think Mega Altaria is S Rank. A+ yes, best mega available, probably, yes, but I don't think it needs S Rank. It either has a 4x rock weakness in base form and EdgeQuake weakness in mega form, or poor synergy with the best S Rank, Dragonite. It doesn't help that the influx of Steel types all resist Pixelate Frustration and that Heatran hardwalled everything it does. Also not sure if Keldeo/Heatran are S Rank material, they are very good, but I think A+ suits them better. Not 100% sure on those two though.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I actually disagree with Mega Altaria in S rank. Because too many random pokes have Steel type, Pixilate Return/Hyper Voice is pretty underwhelming here, unlike in OU. More like A+ imo.

 

[DarkeKnight]

I also disagree to Mega Altaria being S rank for the same reasons posted above.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Thing is, OU already has a list--our first draft isn't even finalized yet. I think just having S Rank as one thing is good enough, and I also don't think Mega Altaria is S Rank. A+ yes, best mega available, probably, yes, but I don't think it needs S Rank. It either has a 4x rock weakness in base form and EdgeQuake weakness in mega form, or poor synergy with the best S Rank, Dragonite. It doesn't help that the influx of Steel types all resist Pixelate Frustration and that Heatran hardwalled everything it does. Also not sure if Keldeo/Heatran are S Rank material, they are very good, but I think A+ suits them better. Not 100% sure on those two though.

I'd make an argument for Altaria having great synergy with Dragonite. You can use their stabs (Dragon & Fairy) and then you can mix and match their coverage move. Hard to explain but let me try. When you put Dnite and Maltaria together you can use Earthquake on Dnite and Fire blast on Altaria. Then they can function as flying spam, one of them weakens for the other. But you can also change it up, give Dnite Fire punch and Altaria Earthquake for unpredictability. Excellent offensive synergy, You can also run a third move on Dnite, like Thunder punch or Aqua tail to take out Heatran. Mega Altaria is a heavily centralising pokemon in this metagame that easily 6-0s unprepared teams

 

[Reggie1000]

Hey guys :) I wanted to play the meta but didn't find any calculator that was able to calculate triple weaknesses, so I decided to make one.
I posted it in the OM chat already after asking a driver+, I made it myself this afternoon and is really simple to use.

If you see any mistakes (a typing that doesn't have the correct values) or bugs, don't hesitate to tell me so I can fix them :)

http://regilio.vdzel.com/triplecalc/

I hope it'll be useful :)

 

[Ghoul King]

Nominating Keldeo for S rank

Keldeo basically has two typings I've seen it use Ground and Steel. Specs can be used to like it's used in OU going in and out and spamming Scald and secret sword.

But what really makes Keldeo S rank is Sub Calm mind. I've been using Steel Sub CM Keldeo. It's neutral to Fairy, Psychic, Flying and Grass which is amazing. It sets up on Mega Venusaur as your sub survives a Giga drain after +1. It's simply amazing how easily you can set up. I'm pretty exhaused at the moment but I don't feel like this will be a hard submission as there's few arguments against this nomination. I love all the discussion on the page atm.

... Keldeo is not S-rank. It's S-rank in Standard primarily because Secret Sword gives it the distinction of being the only Special attacker that can simply shove Chansey aside. Ghost Chansey is the default in Hidden Type, taking away its greatest strength. Not only that, but its painfully limited movepool means it's ability to get offensive utility out of an added type is almost literally restricted to Hidden Power STAB, and its typing is in an awkward position where there's just not any really amazing add from a defensive perspective. It also doesn't heavily value any specific utility of any type, especially since the Substitute-Calm mind set is protected from Prankster Thunder Wave and the like by the Substitute itself and it's not really scared of trappers, so it just gets very little out of this meta.

Not only that, but Unaware Water Clefable defeats it completely, resisting Fighting and Water (And Icy Wind while it's at it) and ignoring all those Calm Minds, all while knowing for a fact that Moon Blast will be at least neutral against it. (Dragon Clefable also walls its STABs)

Ghost Ferrothorn is also unimpressed with its STABs, being only really bothered by the Burn chance on Scald.

Etc.

Keldeo is certainly still relevant to the Hidden Type meta, but compared to Standard it's almost all downside, and, again, its single greatest advantage is taken away from it. I'd place it at B+, maybe somewhere in A. The hit it takes from Hidden Type is just so huge, and attempting to compensate will tend to make things worse. (If you have Ghost typing to protect it from Chansey's Seismic Toss, that's pretty much the only utility you're getting out of that typing)

Volcarona

I'd like to add two points.

-Electric typing lets it push past Flying Heatran using Hidden Power Electric. (Not Grass Heatran, alas) It has the additional bonus of rendering it immune to Paralysis, which is actually huge since it's so badly crippled by being Paralyzed normally and Prankster Thunder Wave is absolutely a thing.

-Conversely, Dragon Clefable completely walls most variations, being resistant to Fire, Bug, Grass, Electric... all while Unaware.

I'm also not sure why Electric Gardevoir is that high. It's a rather poor Mega compared to everything else in that rank, and while it's good it's just a tad too highly ranked in my opinion. A- sounds like a nice place for it

It hits brutally hard against a wide variety of (Relevant) targets, its Speed of 100 is actually quite good in the overall slower Hidden Type meta, it has a wide variety of support tools for messing with things that expect to be able to tank its straight firepower (Will O Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt...), the Paralysis immunity actually ensures that it will hold that Speed tier... it's a really good Pokemon, and even its fragility is surprisingly manageable. Banded Brave Bird off Talonflame is not a OHKO, where it is in Standard, for instance.

So we're doing great now really fixing up the ladder. I have a suggestion, in OU viability rankings they're going down the list in an effort to clean it up, so that's what I think we should do!

Starting with S rank!

This is how the S rank should look like:
Dragonite (steel)
Manaphy (grass)
Landorus-I (poison/dark)
Keldeo (steel/ground)
Mega Altaria (fire/steel)
Heatran (flying)

We should also cut up S rank, from + to -

I doubt + to - is going to be implemented for S rank. And, again, Keldeo isn't S, I disagree that Mega Altaria is S (And so do a bunch of other people!), and Heatran is most certainly not S. Heatran is held back by its lack of recovery and poor Speed, when the main value it brings to the table is walling a lot of things -that's a lot harder when it's totally reliant on Leftovers and Wish passing to have staying power.

The only thing I see as plausible for moving up to S out of current nominations is Mew, which could potentially be ridiculously amazing if people really start trying to exploit its immense versatility, rather than just running OU Stallbreaker Mew and slapping on Dark for STAB Knock Off. Maybe Dark Death Diggersby if it proves to be even more amazing at this extremely narrow role than it's already proven. And I'm skeptical of even those.

I'd make an argument for Altaria having great synergy with Dragonite. You can use their stabs (Dragon & Fairy) and then you can mix and match their coverage move. Hard to explain but let me try. When you put Dnite and Maltaria together you can use Earthquake on Dnite and Fire blast on Altaria. Then they can function as flying spam, one of them weakens for the other. But you can also change it up, give Dnite Fire punch and Altaria Earthquake for unpredictability. Excellent offensive synergy, You can also run a third move on Dnite, like Thunder punch or Aqua tail to take out Heatran. Mega Altaria is a heavily centralising pokemon in this metagame that easily 6-0s unprepared teams

Yes, and prepared teams are reliably prepared for any variation of Mega Altaria. Part of why Dragonite is S rank is that pretty much any check or counter is only to a specific build -add the right coverage and it dies. Landorus-Incarnate has a similar dynamic ("I brought my special wall, and WAIT KNOCK OFF WHAT" "I brought my Pokemon that walls Knock Off, Sludge Wave, and Earth Power WAIT GRAVITY WHAT"), while Manaphy doesn't but it's fine because it can 6-0 even prepared teams with good prediction or team support. (Back when Hidden Type had a ladder the first time, Old_Gregg had Zapdos passing Agility to it, and this could wreck teams reliant on revengers that are faster than Manaphy)

Hey guys :) I wanted to play the meta but didn't find any calculator that was able to calculate triple weaknesses, so I decided to make one.
I posted it in the OM chat already after asking a driver+, I made it myself this afternoon and is really simple to use.

If you see any mistakes (a typing that doesn't have the correct values) or bugs, don't hesitate to tell me so I can fix them :)

http://regilio.vdzel.com/triplecalc/

I hope it'll be useful :)

Nice!

But I already hit a bug: I input Fighting/Water/Steel and it claims Dark is neutrally effective against it.

---

Nominating Dark or Ground Mega Beedrill for C+. Dark Mega Beedrill has an insanely hard-hitting Knock Off that almost nothing wants to switch in on, while Ground Mega Beedrill's Drill Run is amazing support to its U-Turn and, crucially, renders it neutral to Stealth Rock, offering far more endurance over the course of a match when U-Turning out constantly. Even its fragility is manageable, because priority is surprisingly uncommon, and with Hidden Type running on the slow side it has more potential to simply Mega Evolve and attack, rather than having to Protect on the first. (Though in practice it usually will have to do so anyway, but it helps) Its biggest problem is that it competes with other Megas (Most notably Mega Altaria), and its other biggest problem is that there are other, arguably better Pokemon for the hit-and-run role. Also, U-Turn is far more commonly resisted, double resisted, or even merely neutral where it would be super effective -Ghost Ferrothorn resists, Ghost and Flying Tyranitar are neutral, Steel Dragonite is doubly resistant, etc. It helps that Grass is an add on some crucial Pokemon, such as Manaphy, but while Mega Beedrill definitely does some cool things, it just isn't a defining threat. More's the pity. :(