Hippowdon [QC 2/3]

[trc]

Just a question to everyone who's approved this: Why is Rock Slide preferred over Stone Edge. Stone Edge is preferred, in singles, on basically every Pokemon that learns both, so I was just wondering if Stone Edge isn't slashed anywhere, while Rock Slide is, for a specific reason regarding Hippowdon.

Rock Slide is basically used to target Mega Charizard X, and it OHKOes anyway. For Pokemon that use it as a neutral STAB move such as Tyranitar, the more powerful option is preferred.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I think Stone Edge needs an Other Options mention. Here's why:

0 Atk Hippowdon Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 204-244 (75 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
0 Atk Hippowdon Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 272-324 (100 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I have personally used Hippowdon at times to take on Mega Pinsir, and I often find myself going with Stone Edge instead of Rock Slide so that I can guarantee the OHKO on Mega Pinsir at full health. It's also a tiny bit better against a full health Mega Charizard Y; factoring in accuracy, Rock Slide has a 78.75% chance to OHKO 4/0 Mega Charizard Y while Stone Edge will OHKO 80% of the time, so there's that. Rock Slide might be the better option overall since it's more accurate (and sometimes Hippowdon can't afford to miss), but Stone Edge needs a mention.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Also, Ice Fang shouldn't be mentioned in the description of the the physically defensive set when you don't mention it in the set.

 

[Trainer Au]

Also, Ice Fang shouldn't be mentioned in the description of the the physically defensive set when you don't mention it in the set.

Thanks for the catch


Stone edge will be put in OO for ohkoing mpinsir

 

[mikelos]

Just a question to everyone: Why is Rock Slide preferred over Stone Edge? Stone Edge is preferred, in singles, on basically every Pokemon that learns both, so I was just wondering if Stone Edge isn't slashed anywhere, while Rock Slide is, for a specific reason regarding Hippowdon.

it hits more often and can flinch

 

[Jukain]

Just a question to everyone: Why is Rock Slide preferred over Stone Edge? Stone Edge is preferred, in singles, on basically every Pokemon that learns both, so I was just wondering if Stone Edge isn't slashed anywhere, while Rock Slide is, for a specific reason regarding Hippowdon.

Because it is quite a bit more reliable in terms of accuracy, and does what it needs to in terms of power, so Hippowdon doesn't need Stone Edge.

 

[Baharoth]

it hits more often and can flinch

Flinch doesnt realy matter on a poke thats so slow. I agree with Agent Gibbs here, Stone Edge is important to ohko Mega Pinsir and definetely should be mentioned somewhere. Rockslide misses often enough, those 10% arent that important when your losing such an important ohko because of it.

 

[Swamp Link]

Max HP and max SpD to make Hippowdon as bulky as possible on the special attacking spectrum so it can wall mons like Thundurus, Mega Charizard Y, Aegislash, Latios, Latias, Deoxys-S, Gengar, and Tornadus-T. The remaining is tossed into defense.

Don't go crazy with the list of Pokemon that Specially Defensive Hippowdon can wall. It's definitely not switching into Latios well anytime soon.

Nature is careful to boost SpD. Careful is recommended because by using Sassy you lower your speed. This is important because you could potentially win speed ties vs. other Hippowdon and get up your Stealth Rocks or Slack Off.

Don't bother talking about Sassy, Hippowdon would never need to run it.

Hippowdon is significantly less bulky on the special side than his physical side so be wary of what you're about to send it in on.

Its defenses are almost even with the Specially Defensive Spread.

Pokemon that can handle the Pokemon that beat Hippowdon such as Gyarados when Hippowdon doesn't have whirlwind, Taunt+Bulk-Up Talonflame, etc. are appreciated. A good example of this is Rotom-W, which can also come in on water attacks directed at Hippowdon.

You lose to Gyarados even with whirlwind, really, since you'll take a ton. And Rotom-W loses to Gyarados too. Suggest something like Ferrothorn instead.

I prefer Stone Edge to Rock Slide a lot for this reason:

0 Atk Hippowdon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 272-320 (100.3 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Hippowdon Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 204-244 (75.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Please replace it, losing to Pinsir unless you have rocks all the time as opposed to losing to Pinsir 20% of the time is not worth it.

Good work, there wasn't much to change! Please go ahead and write this up.

QC 2/3

 

[Alter]

It's definitely worth mentioning an Impish nature on the Specially Defensive set for the 10% boost to Defense is larger than that of Special Defense and it allows Hippowdon to more ably deal with Bisharp, Talonflame, and Dragonite etc. You can put this in the set details instead of the talk about Sassy because Sassy is highly irrelevant.

On top of what Swamp Link said regarding your list of Pokemon that Specially Defensive Hippowdon 'walls', I'd be careful with your listing and wording. For example, Timid Mega Charizard Y does a massive 64.2-75.7% to Hippowdon with Solar Beam, or (if it jumps in on it to cancel sun), 48.5 - 57.1% with Fire Blast in sand. This is definitely not 'walling'.

After you make these adjustments (as well as the ones outlined by Swamp Link), you can start writing.

 

[Trainer Au]

Swamp Link Labyrinthine

I'll remove sassy if you want me to, but i was pointing out WHY sassy shouldnt be used, not reccomending it.


Im going to respond without quotes since im on my fone atm. Starting with swamp:

I'll remove the lati part.

I meant that even fully invested, spdef hippo isnt the bulkiest mon ever.

Ill change the gyara point, that was dumb of me.

I figure rock slide is better because of the better accuracy; if u miss then it doesnt matter if you ohko. Rock slide + sand can bring it low enough so you can ko with priority, although quick attack will hurt. But i will change it to stone edge since u probably already new these points yet u still think edge is better.

Labyrinthine

Unless it was changed, solarbeam only does half damage in sand (implemented in gen 2)

Also, i cant post the calc from my fone, but according to what i got fire blast only does 44-52. I think u forgot the nature in your calc which makes blast do 48-57

Do u have a different ev spread for impish max spdef hippo?



Ill change everything and then write it up when i can but im pretty busy this week

 

[Baharoth]

Since we just have that question in another thread. How about changing the order of the sets, putting the physical defensive set first. The main purpose of SpD Hippo was to counter Aegislashs Crumbler set, but that set isnt very common any more (9% last month according to the usage statistics) while the sub toxic set increases in popularity and Hippo cant counter that set, no matter how much SpD hes got.
Because of that i feel like the physical set is more viable atm, maybe with some SpD EVs to take HP Ice and stuff, a 76 SpD spread was mentioned somewhere I believe, and personally I am using 120 EVs to be able to take a Fireblast in the sun and ko back with SE/RS, but full SpD doesnt have much use anymore imo.

 

[Trainer Au]

Since we just have that question in another thread. How about changing the order of the sets, putting the physical defensive set first. The main purpose of SpD Hippo was to counter Aegislashs Crumbler set, but that set isnt very common any more (9% last month according to the usage statistics) while the sub toxic set increases in popularity and Hippo cant counter that set, no matter how much SpD hes got.
Because of that i feel like the physical set is more viable atm, maybe with some SpD EVs to take HP Ice and stuff, a 76 SpD spread was mentioned somewhere I believe, and personally I am using 120 EVs to be able to take a Fireblast in the sun and ko back with SE/RS, but full SpD doesnt have much use anymore imo.

It isnt fair to use last month's stats to prove a set isnt as popular and then say that a set that isnt even on last months stats is gaining popularity.


I think checking / countering strong special mons like charY, electric types, gengar, aegis, heatran, etc. As well as soft checking/checking charx, mpinsir, chomp, bisharp, landt, ttar. Is more valuable than countering charx, mpinsir, chomp, etc. But if qc disagrees ill change the order.

 

[Alter]

I'm fairly sure 252 HP / 4(+) Def / 252 SpD is fine when running an Impish nature as well for the first set. It should run Impish if threats such as Volcarona, Latios, and Aegislash can be covered by teammates. Also, you were right about the Solar Beam point; ignore those calcs. That being said, Fire Blast still easily 2HKOs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Hippowdon under sun, meaning it isn't really the greatest of checks (especially when Rock Slide is a 2nd slash, although I'm not arguing it shouldn't be). You can keep Mega Zard Y there if you really want. I also agree with Dice regarding the set order, so keeping it the way it is now is fine by me.

edit @ below: Yeah, that's what i meant. Hippowdon can't switch into an unevolved Mega Charizard Y because sun will overcome the sand and it will then 2hko/outspeed.

 

[Ash Borer]

mega zard Y isnt going to have sun up against hippo cuz sand stream. Only the evolution turn is a problem. Healthy SpD hippo with Stone Edge cleanly beats Zard Y as long as it doesnt switch in on the evolution turn.

 

[Baharoth]

It isnt fair to use last month's stats to prove a set isnt as popular and then say that a set that isnt even on last months stats is gaining popularity.


I think checking / countering strong special mons like charY, electric types, gengar, aegis, heatran, etc. As well as soft checking/checking charx, mpinsir, chomp, bisharp, landt, ttar. Is more valuable than countering charx, mpinsir, chomp, etc. But if qc disagrees ill change the order.

Well the usage shows that Crumbler was already pretty low on usage before the sub toxic set became popular and it will certainly not increase in popularity now that sub toxic is on the rise.

The thing about the checking/countering is that for most of the things mentioned, full SpD isnt needed. With just 132 SpD EVs and impish nature you avoid the ohko from choice specs Latios and Mega Zard Ys Fireblast in the sun, while even Life Orb Thundy fails to 2hko with HP ice. Gengar also fails to 2hko without Energy Ball (which 2hkos full SpD as well) and Aegislash sets using Lefties/Airballon also fail to 2hko so basicly everything that the special defensive set is supposed to check/counter can be checked with far lower special defense as well while the increased physical bulk allows you to get deal with lots of prominent physical threats much better.
Also using hippo to check Chari Y is problematic because you cant switch in until it mega evolved. That means you either have to have another check to it or sacrifice a pokemon to take that first hit, both cases arent exactly ideal and jeopardize Hippowdons value as a Charizard counter.

If its not for the Crumbler set I see no reason at all to use full SpD and looking at Crumblers current and possible future popularity I dont think thats wort it.

 

[Trainer Au]

Well the usage shows that Crumbler was already pretty low on usage before the sub toxic set became popular and it will certainly not increase in popularity now
that sub toxic is on the rise.

The thing about the checking/countering is that for most of the things mentioned, full SpD isnt needed. With just 132 SpD EVs and impish nature you avoid the ohko from choice specs Latios and Mega Zard Ys Fireblast in the sun, while even Life Orb Thundy fails to 2hko with HP ice. Gengar also fails to 2hko without Energy Ball (which 2hkos full SpD as well) and Aegislash sets using Lefties/Airballon also fail to 2hko so basicly everything that the special defensive set is supposed to check/counter can be checked with far lower special defense as well while the increased physical bulk allows you to get deal with lots of prominent physical threats much better.
Also using hippo to check Chari Y is problematic because you cant switch in until it mega evolved. That means you either have to have another check to it or sacrifice a pokemon to take that first hit, both cases arent exactly ideal and jeopardize Hippowdons value as a Charizard counter.

If its not for the Crumbler set I see no reason at all to use full SpD and looking at Crumblers current and possible future popularity I dont think thats wort it.

I dont see a point in splitting evs. Hippo's spdef isnt the highest so by splitting the evs you give your opponent a better chance to break through you. Now, with some prior damage (which is easy to get since your hippo should be coming in on a plethora of attacks because you rely on it to check special and physical mons) your opponent can 2hko you.
Also, With your spread, you still lose to Mchomp, jolly mpinsir w/ rocks, Mmawile, etc like max def hippo can.

 

[Baharoth]

Well ofc your losing something on the special side, the question is where the pay off is higher, here some calcs to show what i mean.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 429-505 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 382-450 (90.9 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 481-567 (114.5 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That are 3 important physical threats that walk right over special defensive Hippo, with a mixed spread your avoiding the ohko from Pinsir and Bisharp all together (after rocks Pinsir has a 25% chance to ohko, Bisharp fails even with rocks) and have a 50% chance to survive mega mawile as well, giving you the opportunity to strike back with EQ/SE.

On the other hand some relevant special threats:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 120 SpD Hippowdon: 180-213 (43.1 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 120 SpD Hippowdon: 187-221 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 120 SpD Hippowdon: 152-180 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Even with SR dmg the chances for a 2hko are extremly low and with some more EVs you could avoid them all together. Your losing the ability to stall out Crumbler Sets and Charizard Y but get the jump on some very prominent physical threats. I guess in the end its a question of personal preference but given the low Crumbler usage and the problems with stalling Charizard Y even with full SpD I think its worth it.

Anyways, its your analysis and your decision just wanted to mention it.

 

[Trainer Au]

Qc threads shouldnt be used to argue. Sorry everyone.

Thank you Baharoth for your suggestion but i dont think i will switch the set order unless qc/others agree with you.

 

[Fuzznip]

Trainer Au

Are you going to be writing this soon? 24 hours to respond.