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Hmm Leafeon.
- Thread starter Cactuar
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For the record, I'd like to point out that Leafeon cannot OHKO Heracross or anything you'd want to AA without a swords dance or attack EVs, and it cannot outrun any of the standard sweepers without you investing enough speed EVs and your nature to do so, which is missing the point of Leafeon IMO.
That said, poor Leafy's super restricted, but he's good at what he does, can't we just leave it at
Swords Dance
Baton Pass
Leaf Blade
Yawn/Roar/Wish
?
This post just seems to keep going in circles...
That said, poor Leafy's super restricted, but he's good at what he does, can't we just leave it at
Swords Dance
Baton Pass
Leaf Blade
Yawn/Roar/Wish
?
This post just seems to keep going in circles...
Since we already have the Analysis forum for expert advices, why can't we just have a friendly discussion on fun movesets? That way some of us can learn better and more quickly from threads like this why some ideas work and why some don't. I think it's kind of harsh to tell the newcomers not to make posts because their posts are not as intelligent as the ones made by the experts. They deserve some credits for doing some damage and EV calculations and spending time explaining why they have such ideas.
The problem is that there is always a new user. We'll be going around in circles if threads like this continue to form that are full of oddball movesets that don't work effectively. That means every single time we (people who have a firm grasp on the game) have to come in here and explain every single time why something is better and debunk something. That's why we have the analysis forum in the first place so we can save some time and state clearly why the standard moveset should actually be the standard moveset in one central location.
Feel free to deviate from the standard. CrazyStarwolf did it all the time in Advance and people didn't mind. Why? Because her sets were actually effective and she won battles against good people with them. If you can prove that something works well then use it.
It's not harsh to tell new users to not post if their posts ARE in fact not very intelligent or well thought out. It's practical. If they have the calculations or explanations to back something up then go right ahead but my guess is the new user came here and registered to learn about competitive pokemon and we're trying to teach that by explaining what works best first.
For the most part this competitive battling site,If you want to discuss a fun moveset they are several website like serebii,and others where you can do that.The big draw here that if you see moveset it will probably work in battle. If you put some time and effort and make good moveset it will be appreciated on this site.A lot of people here have been playing pokemon and very good players at pokemon for along while can recognized a bad moveset easily and most part the moveset here have been tested out(aka the First wave Moveset Analyses ,the second wave aka UU and lesser user poke have been less inspired and you can tell these movesets have not been tested).
Now because just someone on this site,says a moveset bad does not means it bad.You have to beware of two thing if you present a moveset here
1.Try to make sure it advantage of optimum things that pokemon does for example Aero can be use as pressure staller but with its great speed and attack it better off used as attacker.
2.Make sure bring plenty back up information to support your case,For example Most people on this site dismiss toxic spikes but if i was bring topic on the support toxic spikes, i would be sure bring plenty of information supporting why i think so.
They are still many great moveset out there to be used.Just make sure do some time testing ,a great many moveset won't be used here if people tested them out.Here is not so brave prediction Alazakam, Snorlax ,Suicune, Zapdos, Registeel, Lapras, Feraligator, Crobat, Hounchcrow, Poliwrath, Golduck, Nidoking, Hypno,Shiftry, Venasuar,Meganium, Espeon, Houndoom, Kabutops, Floaztel somebody is going to come up moveset and ev spread spread and one of these poke will be come a big part of metagame.
Maybe some sort of physical wall with Wish and Curse?
Leafeon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 130 Def / rest in Atk
Nature: Impish (Def+/SAtk-)
- Curse
- Wish
- Leaf Blade
- Aerial Ace
Something like this?
Leafeon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 130 Def / rest in Atk
Nature: Impish (Def+/SAtk-)
- Curse
- Wish
- Leaf Blade
- Aerial Ace
Something like this?
For the bad moveset debate going on, I'd like to say that people are going to try to pick apart your movesets just as much as if they were trying to play you and bring down your poke. If you can defend it well, that means that you can handle that very situation as if it really came up in battle, and therefore proves your moveset is worthwhile. If you can't defend it, that means your poke just got KOed.
I'm a bit too new to be able to recognize names of people that are good, but if I see a good moveset I'll take it into consideration and maybe try it out, but I'll pass right over movesets with glaring weaknesses that offer no explaination as to how to get around it.
In general, defend your moveset if you can, but if you can't its time to rethink it.
Also, for a curse set, you should probably throw more EVs into spdef so that a special sweeper won't come in and ruin your fun in one shot. Your def will rise as you use curse, but your spdef will stay where it is, so you need to cover that. Still, boltbeamers will chew it up pretty quick, but it looks like fun.
I'm a bit too new to be able to recognize names of people that are good, but if I see a good moveset I'll take it into consideration and maybe try it out, but I'll pass right over movesets with glaring weaknesses that offer no explaination as to how to get around it.
In general, defend your moveset if you can, but if you can't its time to rethink it.
Also, for a curse set, you should probably throw more EVs into spdef so that a special sweeper won't come in and ruin your fun in one shot. Your def will rise as you use curse, but your spdef will stay where it is, so you need to cover that. Still, boltbeamers will chew it up pretty quick, but it looks like fun.
Swords Dance off of base 110 Attack, 4x weakness... yes, it could. But you have to be Jolly to outspeed Jolly Heracross though, and he will OHKO you with Megahorn if he goes first (or while you try to Swords Dance, if you haven't already) and does minimum 151% if it has Choice Band, or if Guts has been activated (and if it's Choice Scarf, you will lose, unless it misses).
The minimum a Jolly Heracross will do to you without Choice Band or Guts is 100(.99)%, so you would need even more HP/Def EVs to live through it (max is 119%).
Also, those were assuming Leafeon has 128HP/0Def EVs.
I was re-looking at the Floatzel analysis earlier and Jumpman said the best targets are ones with High Atk and Def (which is obvious, though I'm just restating it), don't get hurt much by Floatzel's weaknesses (Electric/Grass) and Wish support is good too. Leafeon fits in all 3 of those categories. So, I would use it on a team (probably in BL, unless one/both of them end up in OU, which I don't think would happen) with Floatzel, and use Leaf Blade/Swords Dance/Baton Pass/Wish. Swords Dance probably seems redundant with Bulk Up, but it is better than any other filler move you would be using, and Floatzel can't really switch in much, so this gives you an alternative way to passing Atk to other things (or even to Floatzel).
299 is the single most important speed point in the game, there's nothing wrong with going high-speed on a defensive pokemon if it allows you to outspeed most of the offensive threats to it. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.
Natural Gift is still terrible and should never be used in any moveset, ever. Please refer to my first post.
Natural Gift is still terrible and should never be used in any moveset, ever. Please refer to my first post.
I think someone made an interesting Driftblim set that involved Baton Pass, Natural Gift and Recycle. I didn't use it myself, but supposedly Driftblim gets free Agility every time it uses its item due to its ability Unburden.
Just as an example of where Natural Gift can be useful :-p
Regardless, I think it is interesting to have a one-shot attack as long as it can OHKO your common threat, and that you don't have a movepool to do it otherwise. Some of us play in-game, and getting a respectable hidden power is next to impossible. So in that context, Natural Gift is all we got.
Just as an example of where Natural Gift can be useful :-p
Regardless, I think it is interesting to have a one-shot attack as long as it can OHKO your common threat, and that you don't have a movepool to do it otherwise. Some of us play in-game, and getting a respectable hidden power is next to impossible. So in that context, Natural Gift is all we got.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
Regarding the Drifblim set, it's too slow, and even if you get multiple Unburdens, you can't BP the speed boosts.
You might want to discuss Driftblim in its own thread <_<
Anyway, regarding Leafeon's curse set, I see two potential problems. One, its SpDef is low which will leave you open to Special attacks while you curse up. Second, Grass is a poor attacking type. Doesn't provide much coverage. Not to mention it can't even utilize Hidden Power to help with that. I certainly wouldn't recommend Natural Gift here. If you are going to Baton Pass Curse boosts to something (with White Herb of course), Umbreon does it better. And its also better defensively to pull it off. All in all I don't think this would work.
Anyway, regarding Leafeon's curse set, I see two potential problems. One, its SpDef is low which will leave you open to Special attacks while you curse up. Second, Grass is a poor attacking type. Doesn't provide much coverage. Not to mention it can't even utilize Hidden Power to help with that. I certainly wouldn't recommend Natural Gift here. If you are going to Baton Pass Curse boosts to something (with White Herb of course), Umbreon does it better. And its also better defensively to pull it off. All in all I don't think this would work.
Ok, Ok, Ok. First of all, Woah... Lots of debate goin on. Well the first thing I wanna say is that I obviously didn't make myself clear enough. I am NOT claiming to be an expert, never have. I only learned about EV's and IV's in the last week since I got the game. BUT, do not for a second think that this means I 'don't have a firm grip on the Pokemon theory'. WTF is this 'The Pokemon Theory' bullshit anyway? I've had these games since i was 6, at least 2 from every single series (only 1 from advanced cos advanced kinda sucked), the Pokemon stadiums and I've watched most of the anime. So yeah I reckon I have a grip on this 'Pokemon Theory'.
Secondly, is it just me or does it seem that everybody is all on their own agenda rushing into things. I gave some stuff so that people know what Leafeons got, what he is capable of, and suggested a moveset that he might have, and asked quite clearly, why aren't people using him? I wanted to know why people arent using him. Not spark this whole debate about new users vs Experts... Everyone seemed ready to rush off and post stuff like 'he can do this' and 'No he can't do that'. Not one person has answered the actual question yet.
Last of all I'd like to say that some peoples arguements have just been stupid. Mainly talking about the 'what if this comes in' thing. Umm hello, they switch you switch... Pokemon arent supposed to be made to counter everything.
And also I think that Aielyn is right. Just because Leafeon is a great Baton Passer, doesn't mean he can't do other things. Some people here a so stuck into the whole idea that pokemon are only allowed to have 1 or 2 purposes and aren't thinking outside the box. The sets they provide are great but their are other options. Especially with Leafeon cos' he has the stats to back it up.
Secondly, is it just me or does it seem that everybody is all on their own agenda rushing into things. I gave some stuff so that people know what Leafeons got, what he is capable of, and suggested a moveset that he might have, and asked quite clearly, why aren't people using him? I wanted to know why people arent using him. Not spark this whole debate about new users vs Experts... Everyone seemed ready to rush off and post stuff like 'he can do this' and 'No he can't do that'. Not one person has answered the actual question yet.
Last of all I'd like to say that some peoples arguements have just been stupid. Mainly talking about the 'what if this comes in' thing. Umm hello, they switch you switch... Pokemon arent supposed to be made to counter everything.
And also I think that Aielyn is right. Just because Leafeon is a great Baton Passer, doesn't mean he can't do other things. Some people here a so stuck into the whole idea that pokemon are only allowed to have 1 or 2 purposes and aren't thinking outside the box. The sets they provide are great but their are other options. Especially with Leafeon cos' he has the stats to back it up.
I think Tangrowth handles attacking significantly better than Leafeon handles attacking. With a bit more attack and that 120 bp grass attack... as well as more than decent defenses, Tangrowth tanks a little bit better at the cost of maybe 5 base defense and speed.
Leafeon is faster however. So it would be a "light tank". But Tangrowth gets 2x speed in sunny day.
Leafeon is faster however. So it would be a "light tank". But Tangrowth gets 2x speed in sunny day.
Here's the main thing: a person can have played Pokemon since they were 6 and still have a very limited notion of competitive play in pokemon, I remember when i was 6 this was my set for
Venusaur:
Mega Drain
Solar Beam
Razor Leaf
Leech Seed
yes, there IS a "higher level" of play than most casual players are aware of, that takes months of lurking to fully understand. I have about 4-5 threads on smogon bookmarked as a reference, and i feel they can really help if you want to dive in to the nuances of what needs to be done to be on the top of your game. Game theory begins as simple as measuring Nash Equilibrium of the possibilities of playing Electivire against Gyarados, and has existed since Sun Tze's Art of War.
Speed Tiers List (courtesy of Mekkah's magic numbers) - Smogon Community
List with the most used Pokemon in the new metagame, based in the RMT Subforums - Smogon Community
Item Alternatives: A Request - Page 2 - Smogon Community
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24104 <-- suggested Starters and why they work.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=57 <-- Warstories that show the metagame in action.
that being said, all your points are admirable for a place like seribii or Gamefaqs and you present them with proper typing, but hiding behind an "I never claimed to be an expert" is just a no-go.
that being said, your questions HAVE been indirectly answered. Leafeon has all the chips working on its side as a Swords Dance Baton passer, It's not 4x weak to Rock (and thus Stealth Rock) like the bug/flying's (Ninjask and Scyther), maintains a reasonable base speed (95 vs Scizor's 65), Doesn't have a 4x weak to Fire or Ice (Gliscor or Scizor), and is far more likely to have better IVs than a Celebi since it can be bred to do so, (nevermind the fact that it's not weak to dark, bugx4, and ghost as well as all of grasses weaknesses)
Anything that Leafeon can do as a "sideshow" will ultimately be a gimmick because other pokemon can do what Leafeon doesn't do, better. Breloom, Cacturne, Cradily, Roserade, Torterra, Sceptile, Tangrowth. All of them are fighting for the very rare "Grass Spot" in your team and all of them have their own strengths and weaknesses. Using Leafeon with a set that can be emulated by one of them is fool's play when it is the only one among them that can Swords Dance Pass, and have high Defense/Speed.
/ rant off.
Venusaur:
Mega Drain
Solar Beam
Razor Leaf
Leech Seed
yes, there IS a "higher level" of play than most casual players are aware of, that takes months of lurking to fully understand. I have about 4-5 threads on smogon bookmarked as a reference, and i feel they can really help if you want to dive in to the nuances of what needs to be done to be on the top of your game. Game theory begins as simple as measuring Nash Equilibrium of the possibilities of playing Electivire against Gyarados, and has existed since Sun Tze's Art of War.
Speed Tiers List (courtesy of Mekkah's magic numbers) - Smogon Community
List with the most used Pokemon in the new metagame, based in the RMT Subforums - Smogon Community
Item Alternatives: A Request - Page 2 - Smogon Community
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24104 <-- suggested Starters and why they work.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=57 <-- Warstories that show the metagame in action.
that being said, all your points are admirable for a place like seribii or Gamefaqs and you present them with proper typing, but hiding behind an "I never claimed to be an expert" is just a no-go.
that being said, your questions HAVE been indirectly answered. Leafeon has all the chips working on its side as a Swords Dance Baton passer, It's not 4x weak to Rock (and thus Stealth Rock) like the bug/flying's (Ninjask and Scyther), maintains a reasonable base speed (95 vs Scizor's 65), Doesn't have a 4x weak to Fire or Ice (Gliscor or Scizor), and is far more likely to have better IVs than a Celebi since it can be bred to do so, (nevermind the fact that it's not weak to dark, bugx4, and ghost as well as all of grasses weaknesses)
Anything that Leafeon can do as a "sideshow" will ultimately be a gimmick because other pokemon can do what Leafeon doesn't do, better. Breloom, Cacturne, Cradily, Roserade, Torterra, Sceptile, Tangrowth. All of them are fighting for the very rare "Grass Spot" in your team and all of them have their own strengths and weaknesses. Using Leafeon with a set that can be emulated by one of them is fool's play when it is the only one among them that can Swords Dance Pass, and have high Defense/Speed.
/ rant off.
Than what, Tangrowth?
Tangrowth has a sleep move that hits on the first turn, Leech Seed, Power Whip, Block, and Higher HP. If you can't see the superiority of Tangrowth in a tanking role, I think you are missing something.
I still don't see why some feel the need to dismiss Leafeon so quickly.
For one thing no HP/s.def Leafeon does not die in one hit from a max s.atk Starmie Ice Beam which is one bonus.
Second thing being a Jolly Leafeon with Swords Dance still has enough speed and firepower to provide a massive threat while STILL being able to BP as a side dish.
Hell off the top of my head a spread of atk-176/def-16/spd-192 with Jolly already equates Atk-300, Def-300, Spd-301 with abit less than half its EV's still to spare. Thats serious power, speed and sturdiness right there which should never be underestimated.
In fact if you think thats not good then you seriously need your head checked since it can reach something like that with plenty of EV's to spare. That or you've been severely spoilt by the upteen hundred legendaries/00bers running around
Also I think people are too quick to try throw it into one category or another. Its a Baton Passer so its outclassed by Pokemon X, Y, Z, its a wall, sweeper outclassed by etc. They seem to fail to notice that some pokemon can multi-task quite effectively.
I know that once I stopped thinking Scyther was either a sweeper or BP'er I got alot more out of it as it could do both roles.
For one thing no HP/s.def Leafeon does not die in one hit from a max s.atk Starmie Ice Beam which is one bonus.
Second thing being a Jolly Leafeon with Swords Dance still has enough speed and firepower to provide a massive threat while STILL being able to BP as a side dish.
Hell off the top of my head a spread of atk-176/def-16/spd-192 with Jolly already equates Atk-300, Def-300, Spd-301 with abit less than half its EV's still to spare. Thats serious power, speed and sturdiness right there which should never be underestimated.
In fact if you think thats not good then you seriously need your head checked since it can reach something like that with plenty of EV's to spare. That or you've been severely spoilt by the upteen hundred legendaries/00bers running around
Also I think people are too quick to try throw it into one category or another. Its a Baton Passer so its outclassed by Pokemon X, Y, Z, its a wall, sweeper outclassed by etc. They seem to fail to notice that some pokemon can multi-task quite effectively.
I know that once I stopped thinking Scyther was either a sweeper or BP'er I got alot more out of it as it could do both roles.
let me... enlighten you to a pokemon comparer application: so you don't make very glib statements like this again. I apologize for Rubycow14's blanket "Leafeon sucks at everything" statement but I have already shown in my previous post that Leafeon works well doing what it does best, but is easily walled by Steels, Fliers, thus losing a tempo game for you, unless it has "at the very least" Swords Dance Baton Pass.
you must weigh every aspect of a pokemon against its alternatives to see why one has an advantage over another.
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/compare.php
A few things i see here that are significant are that Celebi and Tangrowth have a 100 Base HP, which means that they will, most likely, take hits far better as 100/100, 100/125 than as 65/130.
Leafeon, you claim, has better Sp. Defense. This is ONLY the case against Tangrowth, who is walling Physical attacks anyway! and even then, it's only by a base of 15, I'd sooner see Tangrowth taking 2 Ice Beams than Leafeon any day of the week.
hey hey, only a few people were dismissing Leafeon, and they are probably biased against it in the first place, there's no convincing people like them, that being said, i ran damage calcs (all assuming 31 IVs of course) and here are the numbers of Modest Starmie against Adamant/Jolly Leafeon (no hp, no sp.def) Modest Starmie (252 SpAtt) has 328 SpAtt, Jolly/Adamant Leafeon (0 Investment in HP/SpDef) has 166 Sp Def. And 271 HP (BOTH ASSUME 31's in HP and Sp.Def)
This attack deals regular damage
MinMaxAvg 271.76-319.35 Average 295.56
It's super effective!
wow, doesn't that mean that modest starmie (252 EV) OHKO's Jolly/Adamant Leafeon... let's see... 100% of the time? Please, research your numbers before posting something like this, Tangrowth can survive an Ice Beam from non-specs Starmie and fire back an OHKO Power Whip. Leafeon has to pray for unperfect IVs.
That being said, it's obvious that Leafeon needs significant (at least 128 EVs) investment in HP to be surviving assaults by quicker Ice Beamers/Flamethrowers/Sludge Bombers.
I like the triple "Over 300" suggestion, but 300 is no magic number, you have to weigh the investment to the cost, that cost being that Leafeon cannot take an UnSTABed UnSpec's'd special attack from a faster 100+ Base Sp.Attack source without taking significant damage! UNLESS It has HP EVs.
That being said, it's obvious that Leafeon needs significant (at least 128 EVs) investment in HP to be surviving assaults by quicker Ice Beamers/Flamethrowers/Sludge Bombers.
I like the triple "Over 300" suggestion, but 300 is no magic number, you have to weigh the investment to the cost, that cost being that Leafeon cannot take an UnSTABed UnSpec's'd special attack from a faster 100+ Base Sp.Attack source without taking significant damage! UNLESS It has HP EVs.
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