Homosexuality

[Luduan]

I haven't read this thread yet; this is a rejoinder to Deck Knight's reply in the evolution thread.

LOL good job residient pomo artist. I'll have to keep that one.

My interpretive community says that gender discourse is as follows: penis + vagina = life, penis + not vagina = not life. Stick that in your bong and smoke it.

What a witty comeback. Penis + vagina + infertility = not life. All sterile couples should be banned from sexual intercourse.

That and I just hate the singsong way a post-modernist throws around meaningless strings of polysyllabic words as if their opponent will be crushed by an errant vowel. Interpretive community? Gender discourse? Get real. While I'm sure the pomo artist's taxonomy of interpretive communities is intriguing, like everything else they say it's airy and meaningless language designed to obfuscate and confuse. Completely subjective reality is for hopeless idealists, not real people. Pomo's think they can change human nature merely by textually bullshitting it away.

It isn't a "meaningless string of polysyllabic words". This is neither obfuscatory nor textual; it is concrete and sociological. Just because you are unfamiliar with the vocabulary and concepts does not eliminate their value. Bad writing and jargon is not indicative of meaninglessness, as much as Alan Sokal might wish otherwise; they are perfectly intelligible and straightforward. "Completely subjective reality" has nothing to do with postmodernism (the use of the word "subjectivity" is particular evidence of your ignorance). You could perhaps make the case that deconstruction is a sort of textual idealism, lost in language, but I am not a deconstructionist. Your last sentence further proves your utter ignorance, as one of the major movements of poststructuralism is a denial of objective human nature. I understand that philosophy, especially this sort of philosophy, is not everyone's cup of tea, but your derisive unwillingness to critically engage, or at worst simply ignore, the ideas presented evinces a fair deal of intellectual laziness on your behalf.

Socrates: What’s this, Polus? You’re laughing? Is this yet another kind of refutation which has you laughing at ideas rather than proving them wrong?
​

Honestly, a few minutes spent on Wikipedia or the SEP is enough to form an (albeit imprecise) notion of what I meant, even for the complete novice. I am used to posting about this sort of thing on a philosophy forum, so you will have to forgive me if I assumed too much prior knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/postmodernism/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/#Queer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_performativity

Please educate yourself.

 

[CaptKirby]

I guess none of my posts were moved: delaying, or even worse precluding entirely, inclusion of homosexual issues in sex education leads to greater abuse, greater pain (evidenced by skipping school, suicide, et cetera) for homosexuals, confuses children who are, are not, or think they may or may not be homosexual (as in EVERYONE). There is no excuse to teach about these issues any later than sixth grade, when most people are coming into their sexuality (or about to or already have) and figuring out if they are homosexual or how they should feel about homosexuals.

The only argument against this is "if I tell my kid about homosexuals, he or she might become one!" Well, too fucking bad Mr. or Mrs. Random Moralizing Jackass; your child has his or her own feelings and thoughts that he or she is utterly entitled to.

an argument between a christian and a non-christian will just result to NOTHING..

if you believe in REALLY TRULY believe in Christ and God, homosexuality is offensive and a sin. If not, then it's not. You can't make them understand that and vice versa. It's impossible for a TRUE christian to accept homosexuality, if you do, then you're not a christian anymore cause a christian believes ALL the words written in the Bible..

Luke states two different birth dates for Jesus. All the gospels contradict each other thoroughly, especially Mark/Matthew/Luke compared to John, but all essentially give different views of when Jesus is coming back and what it means, for instance. Learn your own fucking text. Furthermore, the assortment of the Bible was very confused and makes you have to consider what in the Bible "means" anything; originally, several books of a gnostic sort were included, and then later exorcised with vehemence (in 394? something like that, not early on by any means).

 

[Zero7]

If you really want to follow the Bible then the odds are stacked against you for getting into heaven. What are your clothes made out of? Well, if they arent all 100% of one fabric, you have committed an abomination according to the Bible. It looks like I'll be seeing you in hell, sinner! HAHA!

I'd figure you (or any others that don't read the Bible) would say something like this. When Jesus died, He did away with these types of things. For example: sacrifices for sins, The limitation of certain foods, etc. I don't mean to just single this post out, but it's only meant as an example.

Furthermore, I say a lot of hate going to those that oppose today's 'common view.' Why is that? If gays want to be accepted, isn't it better to talk to the enemy instead of ridiculing them? And of course, this, a simple question will be meet with the same type of hostility.

 

[Sunsatzu]

all i will say on sexual preference and christianity is this

yes, you may be more sexually attracted toward the same sex, rather than the opposite sex. however, it is still a CHOICE to have sex at any given time. also, real christians believe that ANY sex outside of marriage(as defined by God himself, not a majority of ignorant raving 18+ aged children who still think screaming for what want is the way to go, rather than what 2000+ years of wisdom says we should do (that goes for most things in a democracy)) is sinful.

*hint...hint... sin = evil yes it does exist for those of you who think that evil is just an opinion of one

 

[Polis4rule]

I know it has been suggested numerous times throughout this thread, but how would one even teach homosexuality in sex ed? Would it essentially be awareness, or would it actually be homosexual sex ed as well?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'd figure you (or any others that don't read the Bible) would say something like this. When Jesus died, He did away with these types of things. For example: sacrifices for sins, The limitation of certain foods, etc. I don't mean to just single this post out, but it's only meant as an example.

The Bible was written decades, if not centuries after Jesus died. I just scoured the internet looking for where in the Bible Jesus removed these limitations but I could not find any place where this was so. I actually found sources claiming that Jesus taught the law of Moses, aka the Old Testament, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to just say "oh yeah, all of that stuff I was preaching before is irrelevant now, ttyl!" before he died.

Of course, I have not read the Bible all the way through so I may be wrong, I was just wondering if you could provide a source for this claim.

Furthermore, I say a lot of hate going to those that oppose today's 'common view.' Why is that? If gays want to be accepted, isn't it better to talk to the enemy instead of ridiculing them? And of course, this, a simple question will be meet with the same type of hostility.

Yes, this is correct. It is better to talk to the "enemy" (asking for equality is not opposing you). However, when one side is calling the other side dysfunctional cancer to society, it is kind of hard to maintain negotiations.

I know it has been suggested numerous times throughout this thread, but how would one even teach homosexuality in sex ed? Would it essentially be awareness, or would it actually be homosexual sex ed as well?

Awareness, for the most part. A "hey there are people who aren't exactly like you, and that doesn't make them cancer to society" kinda thing. Also, safety would be stressed as well. AIDS is a very real threat, even to heteroes. Condoms are just as applicable to gays as they are to straights. I never learned about heterosexual anal sex in school, so I really don't think how to have gay sex would be covered.


I read a cool article today about how prejudice against gays is becoming obsolete:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/04/cnn-poll-generational-gap-on-gay-marriage/

Among those 18 to 34 years old, 58 percent said same-sex marriages should be legal. That number drops to 42 percent among respondents 35 to 49 years old, and to 41 percent for those 50 to 64 years of age. The poll indicates that only 24 percent of Americans 65 and older support recognizing same-sex marriages as valid.

Looks like time is still the greatest enemy of bigots.

p.s. Im still waiting for deck to respond to my posts (#52 and #58 in this thread)

 

[Zero7]

The Bible was written decades, if not centuries after Jesus died. I just scoured the internet looking for where in the Bible Jesus removed these limitations but I could not find any place where this was so. I actually found sources claiming that Jesus taught the law of Moses, aka the Old Testament, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to just say "oh yeah, all of that stuff I was preaching before is irrelevant now, ttyl!" before he died. Of course, I have not read the Bible all the way through so I may be wrong, I was just wondering if you could provide a source for this claim.

Okay, I'll see what I can find.

Yes, this is correct. It is better to talk to the "enemy" (asking for equality is not opposing you). However, when one side is calling the other side dysfunctional cancer to society, it is kind of hard to maintain negotiations.

That may be true, however it was you who casted the first stone in the second post; the first sentence even.

EDIT: Jesus came to earth to give us forgiveness of all of our sins, so that instead of use paying for them, He did/will/does. Because of this, sacrificial offerings are no longer necessary.

 

[Jenigmat]

I agree, the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong, and given that the Bible is completely inerrant and should be taken literally, this automatically means that all homosexuals are sinners who cannot be tolerated in society. Because of my belief in the Bible, I also think that everyone should sell all of their possessions, give to charity, and should even stop caring about where they get their food, because all you really need is God (Luke 12). Food and Clothing are all you really need (1 Timothy 6:8). In fact, you can only really be a believer in Jesus if you sell everything you have (Luke 14:33).

Oh look, is that poison and deadly snakes I see! It's a good thing I'm a believer, because I drink that poison, and handle serpents, and no harm shall come to me. I can even cure the sick by laying hands on them (Mark 16:17-18).

If you use the Bible in any argument assuming that it is correct in its entirety, you should believe in all of these things just like me! You wouldn't want to be hypocritical now, would you?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

That may be true, however it was you who casted the first stone in the second post; the first sentence even.

Did you read the OP? Deck called gays dysfunctional, talking about them is profoundly disturbing, its a cult, and thats from the same person who has also called homosexuality a societal cancer. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

EDIT: Jesus came to earth to give us forgiveness of all of our sins, so that instead of use paying for them, He did/will/does. Because of this, sacrificial offerings are no longer necessary.

Where in the Bible is that? I'm looking for either a quote or a passage, not just "this is what happened, trust me."

 

[Tangerine]

Why are you bringing the bible into this

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


hint: homosexuality is a sin, but so is disobeying parents, adultery, etc. I don't see why you're even bringing in the Bible into this considering "it's another sin". We should treat homosexuals like liars and adulterers etc etc etc


so yeah shut up about the bible because it condemns you as much as them. Are you better than homosexuals because you believe in God? no. You're riddled in sins, you're in no position to say that "THIS IS A SIN THIS IS WRONG" when it's literally pot calling the kettle black...


oh and jrrrrrr it's actually stated in the bible that jesus came to "complete" the old testament laws and the part you're looking for is one of the interpretations regarding this fact.



yeah okay end bible debate, just go on and bitch about morality or something, since the Bible clearly says you're as bad as the gay people you hate/dislike. Bible says to love everyone and that's the end of it.

 

[Zero7]

I agree, the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong, and given that the Bible is completely inerrant and should be taken literally, this automatically means that all homosexuals are sinners who cannot be tolerated in society. Because of my belief in the Bible, I also think that everyone should sell all of their possessions, give to charity, and should even stop caring about where they get their food, because all you really need is God (Luke 12). Food and Clothing are all you really need (1 Timothy 6:8). In fact, you can only really be a believer in Jesus if you sell everything you have (Luke 14:33). Oh look, is that poison and deadly snakes I see! It's a good thing I'm a believer, because I drink that poison, and handle serpents, and no harm shall come to me. I can even cure the sick by laying hands on them (Mark 16:17-18). If you use the Bible in any argument assuming that it is correct in its entirety, you should believe in all of these things just like me! You wouldn't want to be hypocritical now, would you?

Correct, but you're ripping things out of context here... For example:

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. (NIV)

We will be content, not all we need. btw, I notice a huge usage of the buzzword 'hypocrite' that liberals use when talking to Christians.

 

[Bologo]

an argument between a christian and a non-christian will just result to NOTHING..

if you believe in REALLY TRULY believe in Christ and God, homosexuality is offensive and a sin. If not, then it's not. You can't make them understand that and vice versa. It's impossible for a TRUE christian to accept homosexuality, if you do, then you're not a christian anymore cause a christian believes ALL the words written in the Bible..

I'm a christian and I'm offended by homosexuality. But I don't treat them like they are different unless they do something different to me or to those people who are important for me, get it? Just like criminals, you don't really treat them different unless they do something different right? Even though homosexuality is natural nowadays, it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. And remember Sodom and Gomorah (did I spell it right?)

I'm sorry, but besides the last paragraph of your post (which I cut out), this post is incredibly stupid, and it's crap like this that gives christians a bad name when talking about homosexuality and stuff.

1. An argument between a christian and a non-christian will result in nothing if and only if one of the sides is very close-minded. Just because someone is christian, and someone else isn't, it does not take away their ability to compromise.

2. What the hell do you mean by "really truly believe in God"? My faith suddenly means absolutely nothing because I don't see homosexuality as "offensive and a sin"? That's ridiculous. Being a christian DOES NOT mean kissing God's ass every fucking minute of the day, and in my opinion, that kind of crap has led to a lot of misconceptions about christianity.

3. You can't tell me that I'm not a christian because I don't believe all the words of the bible. This is possibly the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard...honestly. The bible was written by people, and it's been translated thousands of times, and possibly douched up during the process. IMO, people tend to see the bible as a giant rulebook, when in reality, it's not. It's supposed to be recommending what you "DO" to make your daily life better, not what you "DO NOT DO". The bible is fine and all, but I have trouble believing shit like Methusulah living for 969 years. :/

4. You're offended by something because a book tells you to be...don't you have a mind of your own? Honestly, does it insult you the same way as someone calling you a name? Also, if it's natural, how can it be wrong? If God was going to be so offended by homosexuality the same way you are, he just plain wouldn't have made it possible.

 

[Zero7]

hint: homosexuality is a sin, but so is disobeying parents, adultery, etc. I don't see why you're even bringing in the Bible into this considering "it's another sin". We should treat homosexuals like liars and adulterers etc etc etc

True, in God's eyes, sin is sin. Man is the one that defines 'degrees.'

so yeah shut up about the bible because it condemns you as much as them. Are you better than homosexuals because you believe in God? no. You're riddled in sins, you're in no position to say that "THIS IS A SIN THIS IS WRONG" when it's literally pot calling the kettle black... dot dot dot yeah okay end bible debate, just go on and !@#$% about morality or something, since the Bible clearly says you're as bad as the gay people you hate/dislike. Bible says to love everyone and that's the end of it.

Logical Fallacy: Just because I condemn you/them, doesn't mean I'm not guilty. Additionally, I never said that I was 'holier than thou' either. True, I am no better than the next guy, but the difference I am redeemed through Jesus, and not through myself; other's aren't.

If it bothers you so much, I won't use the Bible anymore.

 

[Tangerine]

1. An argument between a christian and a non-christian will result in nothing if and only if one of the sides is very close-minded. Just because someone is christian, and someone else isn't, it does not take away their ability to compromise.

Actually no. A debate between logic and faith will go down to the definition and it will end there. The end.

2. What the hell do you mean by "really truly believe in God"? My faith suddenly means absolutely nothing because I don't see homosexuality as "offensive and a sin"? That's ridiculous. Being a christian DOES NOT mean kissing God's ass every fucking minute of the day, and in my opinion, that kind of crap has led to a lot of misconceptions about christianity.

Uh.....

Christianity = relationship between you and God
Sin = something that breaches the relationship between you and God
not "kissing God's ass" or "humbling yourself" = sin

Yeah being a christian doesn't mean you're not going to sin but it also doesnt mean you're going to go out of your way to sin (which is what you implied) Then something's wrong in your relationship

4. You're offended by something because a book tells you to be...don't you have a mind of your own? Honestly, does it insult you the same way as someone calling you a name? Also, if it's natural, how can it be wrong? If God was going to be so offended by homosexuality the same way you are, he just plain wouldn't have made it possible.

God is offended by israelites worshipping random shit, he sure didn't take it away. This also begs the question: "If God didnt want you to sin he wouldnt have put that tree in the garden"

yeah okay

Logical Fallacy: Just because I condemn you/them, doesn't mean I'm not guilty. Additionally, I never said that I was 'holier than thou' either. True, I am no better than the next guy, but the difference I am redeemed through Jesus, and not through myself; other's aren't.

If it bothers you so much, I won't use the Bible anymore.

Sure, the point is you should be condemning liars too. The issue here is that homosexuals have been singled out way too long for some stupid reason that isn't really based on "Christianity" at all.

just because you're redeemed or whatever doesn't mean you aren't a liar, disobeying parents, etc etc, lol. So what if you're redeemed? that doesn't make you better - the point of it is that you should be helping others to believe. And with attitudes like this you aren't doing a good job

 

[SS5 vegito]

The Bible was written decades, if not centuries after Jesus died. I just scoured the internet looking for where in the Bible Jesus removed these limitations but I could not find any place where this was so. I actually found sources claiming that Jesus taught the law of Moses, aka the Old Testament, so it wouldn't really make sense for him to just say "oh yeah, all of that stuff I was preaching before is irrelevant now, ttyl!" before he died.

Of course, I have not read the Bible all the way through so I may be wrong, I was just wondering if you could provide a source for this claim.

Let's not forget as time went on, transcripts from the Bible itself were lost and re-edited by man over the decades. Citing counteractions to prove a point, via the Bible is silly in debates such as this. Founding man-theorized exaggerated faith.

 

[Zero7]

Sure, the point is you should be condemning liars too. The issue here is that homosexuals have been singled out way too long for some stupid reason that isn't really based on "Christianity" at all. just because you're redeemed or whatever doesn't mean you aren't a liar, disobeying parents, etc etc, lol. So what if you're redeemed? that doesn't make you better - the point of it is that you should be helping others to believe. And with attitudes like this you aren't doing a good job

Okay, now I see what you're saying. True, we do condemn homosexuals, but that's because liars don't liars usually don't flaunt their liar-ness and try to legalize it. (you know what I mean, no? If not, I'll re-explain) And for your second paragraph, I help people regardless;

And with attitudes like this you aren't doing a good job

however, please don't make hasty generalization before arriving to a conclusion, because it seems you're grouping all so-called 'Christians' together. And btw, Tangerine, are you a girl?

Let's not forget as time went on, transcripts from the Bible itself were lost and re-edited by man over the decades. Citing counteractions to prove a point, via the Bible is silly in debates such as this. Founding man-theorized exaggerated faith.

lern2DeadSeaScrolls. Seriously though: The Bible actually contains the same exact thing throughout all of the versions/history/etc; (except for those versions that aren't under the TRUE Christian faith: Catholic, Mormon, etc.) the Dead Sea Scrolls (and numerous other works) prove this.

 

[Bologo]

Uh.....

Christianity = relationship between you and God
Sin = something that breaches the relationship between you and God
not "kissing God's ass" or "humbling yourself" = sin

Yeah being a christian doesn't mean you're not going to sin but it also doesnt mean you're going to go out of your way to sin (which is what you implied) Then something's wrong in your relationship

Hmm, I guess that the kissing god's ass part came out wrong. I didn't mean to imply that I would go out of my way to sin. Moreso that being a christian doesn't require one to shove their beliefs in other people's faces, which is something that super-devoted christians tend to think is necessary for some reason.

 

[Luduan]

lern2DeadSeaScrolls. Seriously though: The Bible actually contains the same exact thing throughout all of the versions/history/etc; (except for those versions that aren't under the TRUE Christian faith: Catholic, Mormon, etc.) the Dead Sea Scrolls (and numerous other works) prove this.

You are fucking kidding I hope... Tell that to any serious Bible scholar and they will laugh in your face. This is ignorant at best and deceitful at worst. You also seem to ignore the fact that for around 1200 years the Catholic church was the Christian faith. All other early varieties of Christianity (including a good deal that you certainly would not recognize as Christian!) were expunged as "heresies" as the proto-Orthodox gained influence. But I digress; this isn't relevant to homosexuality at all.

 

[Force Majeure]

lern2DeadSeaScrolls. Seriously though: The Bible actually contains the same exact thing throughout all of the versions/history/etc; (except for those versions that aren't under the TRUE Christian faith: Catholic, Mormon, etc.) the Dead Sea Scrolls (and numerous other works) prove this.

I was raised Catholic, and although I no longer affiliate myself with the Church, I'm deeply offended. Catholicism is definitely Christianity. If you believe in Christ and you believe that he died for your sins, you're Christian.

 

[Zero7]

You are !@#$ing kidding I hope... Tell that to any serious Bible scholar and they will laugh in your face. This is ignorant at best and deceitful at worst.

How so? I would like some proof.

You also seem to ignore the fact that for around 1200 years the Catholic church was the Christian faith.

Other way around; when the pagans converted, they wanted Christ, but not all of his teachings.

And of course, this, a simple question will be meet with the same type of hostility.

Prophecy fulfilled.

And I have a question: (which I might make a topic about) For all you atheists and non-believers, what would make you believe in God; or what proof are you looking for that a god/Jesus exists?

 

[Zero7]

I was raised Catholic, and although I no longer affiliate myself with the Church, I'm deeply offended. Catholicism is definitely Christianity. If you believe in Christ and you believe that he died for your sins, you're Christian.

Then your beliefs were/are not Catholic, but Christian. Catholicism does not focus on salvation.

 

[Force Majeure]

Then your beliefs were/are not Catholic, but Christian. Catholicism does not focus on salvation.

Don't fuck with me. Yes, it does.

 

[Zero7]

Don't !@#$ with me. Yes, it does.

Not the majority, and/or what I hear from Catholics; and are you still ' Christian?'

 

[Force Majeure]

Not the majority, and/or what I hear from Catholics; and are you still ' Christian?'

I seriously doubt you know any real, practicing Catholics, and your question is irrelevant.

 

[b0b3rt]

How so? I would like some proof. Other way around; when the pagans converted, they wanted Christ, but not all of his teachings. Prophecy fulfilled.

And I have a question: (which I might make a topic about) For all you atheists and non-believers, what would make you believe in God; or what proof are you looking for that a god/Jesus exists?

God is not falsifiable, therefore no adequate proof for god can exist.