1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

How has CaP changed the metagame?

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by eric the espeon, Jul 17, 2008.

?

What in your opinion is the most powerful (or closest to broken) CaP so far?

  1. Syclant

    24.0%
  2. Revenankh

    72.0%
  3. Pyroak

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Two or more of the above are even (please post which)

    4.0%
  1. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    Following on from the CaP Tournament (won by Earthworm, congratz) I think we should discuss how the new Pokemon we have added to OU have changed and affected the game.

    To start us off:

    How have you adapted your team/playstyle to the metagame?

    What Pokemon/Strategy's do you see more/less of?

    Do you find the new metagame more or less enjoyable than standard OU?

    If the revision process is started what changes (if any) to the existing CaP's do you think are needed?

    Are there any other important questions I need to put in the OP?
  2. sbc

    sbc

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,061
    Revenenakh is the most powerful by the way it simply cannot be taken down without a boosted attack from a Heatran or Tyranitar etc or STAB SE attacks.

    I think that Syclant's versatility and movepool and stat distribution is incredibly broken however, it's like Infernape on steriods.

    I think Revenakh is the biggest change in my team compared to normal OU, the ability to counter DDtar, Lucario, Heracross to name a few with ease, as well as blocking rapid spin is just too good to leave out, plus the fact it can easily sweep 1 in 3 teams.

    When it comes to countering it, Gyarados, CMCresselia, Celebi and MS Zapdos are the only ones I'd be confident about countering it with.

    Syclant is not used often, but should be, and I usually pack a Timid Scarftran to deal with it as well as Pyroak, who is a pain to deal with with Leech Seed / Lava Plume Burn / Toxic just annoying potential counters.

    I think that Syclant's movepool is ridiculous; Taunt, Spikes, Tail Glow, Earth Power, Superpower, Focus Blast, Reflect, Light Screen, Swords Dance. That's insane. At the very least, the supporting options should go.
  3. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Programmeris a CAP Contributoris an Administratoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    3,098
    I don't think any CAP pokemon are broken. But two of them should be changed.

    Revenankh is too bulky to begin with. It's base defensive stats are too high. When it Bulks Up, it gets damn near invincible. Also, Shed Rest is just too good.

    Syclant isn't really broken, but attracts so much negative press I want to change it, just to shut everyone up. Remove Tail Glow and lower its speed. It's overall movepool size is ridiculous too. It doesn't use most of the stuff that's in there, but it just looks bad. Mew wishes it had Syclant's movepool.
  4. Time Mage

    Time Mage

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,007
    Revenankh is the closest to being broken, but it has enough solid counters to just stay at the "too good" range.

    My teams in the CAP server are always fully adapted to the CAP metagame. That means that, aside from taking into account the standard threats, the CAP pokémon are taken into consideration. In fact, with CAP I've started to use ScarfTran as a base on most of my teams, and things like Psychic or flying moves are much more frequent in my teams.

    As for changes to existing pokémon, I agree that Revenankh should be slightly less bulky, specially in the physical side, and Syclant could use a speed reduction (I'd be happy with just one point, but 6 would be better), as well as a movepool reduction, mainly to clean all the unused moves. I'd keep Tail Glow on it, honestly.
  5. phalanx

    phalanx

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Messages:
    3,221
    i disagree
    its syclant (ridiculous speed and big stab)
    pyroak (too bulky and hard to counter)
    Revenankh ( could be broken with shed skin BUT its killable)
    when all 3 are used its very broken in my view as it is practically impossible to pack the required types to counter
  6. Time Mage

    Time Mage

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,007
    Types? Just get a flying type and you counter them, or at least prevent them from roaming around happily. Togekiss rapes Revenankh and Pyroak, and Syclant can't switch safely into it.

    Scarftran is the closest thing to a true counter to Syclant, and Flamethrower Blissey does very well against it, too, as long as it doesn't switch into a Superpower.
  7. rojo23

    rojo23

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    545
    I completely agree with DougJustDoug, Revenakh should be changed. This Pokemon is the ultimate Rapid Spin blocker that can just switch out and in any time you want to spin. I suggest that its base stats/ability/move pool, maybe even it's type (since it doesn't look much like a fighting pokemon to me) should be changed.
  8. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    7,745
    Yes, I see how it could be hard to pack a bulky Flying pokemon that isn't weak to Ice like Moltres to deal with the CAP pokes. Honestly, ScarfMoltres Air Slash shits all over Revenankh and does more to Pyroak then Pyroak will do to it. And either of it's stabs shit on Ant. A Bulky Moltres could work just as well, seeing as with Roost your survivability just goes way up, even with the nasty SR weakness.

    Anytime any pokemon is introduced to a metagame it changes. So I guess I'll individually answer your questions.

    a)How have you adapted your team/playstyle to the metagame?
    By putting pokemon on my team that counter the CAP pokemon and the pokemon that have increased in usage. I haven't adapted my playstyle, but I know how to deal with threats like Syclant (or SDChomp on other servers) and Revenankh (CMCune on other servers).

    b)What Pokemon/Strategy's do you see more/less of?
    You don't see as much of Chomp for no reason at all. You obviously see the CAP pokemon, though Syclant is strangely underused. Bulky Flyers like Togekiss and pokemon like ScarfTran are used more often. Tentacruel usage SHOULD have gone up, but it really hasn't.

    c)Do you find the new metagame more or less enjoyable than standard OU?
    Have you ever seen me battle on CAP in the last few weeks? ...Probably not. It's not because it's less enjoyable, it's because I don't get a shiny prize like a leaderboard place for winning a lot.

    d)If the revision process is started what changes (if any) to the existing CaP's do you think are needed?
    They speak for themselves. I would try and correct things from a competitive standpoint, but I'd also like fixing the mismatches in flavor as best we can as well. And stupid things like Ant's clashing Dex entries.

    ... I think your point is that CAPs have obviously changed the metagame. Most people would know that by battling on Official/Smogon and then coming here. I don't really think every little change can be defined without usage statistics though. That would more than likely be helpful. Though you could always go on intuition.
  9. Aldaron

    Aldaron indefatigable workhorse
    is a Tournament Directoris a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administrator
    OU and IRC Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,593
    This topic would be substantially more helpful with usage statistics.

    Until then we are just kind of arbitrarily ranting, lol.

    But if I had to make some guesses, I would agree with most of what Elevator_Music said, though I disagree with Tentacruel.

    When I played on CaP I saw plenty of them.

    I have noticed a substantial decrease in Sand teams, however.
  10. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    7,745
    Ah, I was going off of what I remember. You're probably right, and while I don't really remember it going up with Syclant, it probably did with Pyroak.
  11. Lunar Fang

    Lunar Fang

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    133
    Yeah, Rev is definitely the closest of the CaPs to being considered broken. Two or three bulk ups means gg for a lot of players. After some bulk ups, it has powered up STAB priority and awesome defense so it could be pretty overpowered compared to most of the regular OU threats. Plus status which can usually stop a poke in their tracks doesn't help much. Anyway, if anything at all needs to be revised, it's probably Rev's defs.

    Syclant and Pyroak aren't anything too special. Syclant can sweep if not approached properly, but it's not broken. I do agree with the move pool issue though.

    Pyroak is a good staller. Nothing more to it.

    Basically: Rev>Syclant> Pyroak based on metagame impact imo.

    Yeah, I've had to make a few changes to my teams to make it CaP server friendly (CM Cressy, Togekiss, Gross) but that's it. Overall, I'd say I'm neutral on the new metagame's status. Everything's going smoothly so it's all good I guess.
  12. latinoheat

    latinoheat
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,074
    i think revy shouldn't have got a priority move
  13. Bass

    Bass Brother in arms
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,442
    As for Revenankth itself, its stats are just right, in my opinion. Its defenses are good but still not too high in the sense that Revenankth is easily killed by boosted it hits (CB Garchomp Outrage, LO Gyara Waterfall, SpecsTran Fire Blast, etc.). Its offense is good but not really threatening until it gets a few bulk ups in.

    However, in terms of pure usage, Revenankth is by far the most overcentralizing force in the CaP environment. Although it has several reliable counters, unlike Garchomp (Hell, even Syclant), most of them are either pokemon that are otherwise not used as often in standard (such as Staraptor, Weezing, Togekiss, and even Dragonite) or commonly used pokemon that need to alter their movesets JUST to beat Revenankth (Psychic on Celebi/Taunt on Gyara). This would be one of those times where it would be nice to have actual usage statistics, since a lot of my examples are only based on personal observations. Still, I find myself always considering Revenankth when building a team for the CaP server. I still find myself capable of handling it provided I bring the right counter, but I could see it needing a nerf (ie losing shed skin).
  14. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    5,393
  15. ParadOxymoron

    ParadOxymoron

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Messages:
    403
    Did you guys give Syclant Mountaineer just so that its presence wouldn't increase the prevalence of Stealth Rock in the metagame? I guess if your intentions were honorable or whatever, then it's fine, but if it was just to save a Pokémon from an otherwise crippling weakness, then it seems a little silly to me, and only makes Syclant more deserving of his bad rep. People toss around the word "fanboyish" a lot around here, and all brokenness aside, I don't think there's anything much more fanboyish than Syclant's 121 Speed and his Mountaineer trait. And then there's Tail Glow, but that's a whole other issue.

    If it turns out that I don't know what I'm talking about, then I welcome any virtual slaps to the face that may be warranted to me.
  16. latinoheat

    latinoheat
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,074
    scylant was given it because people thought it wouldn't be usable with stealth rocks, then again it was their own fucking fault voting bug/ice.
  17. Blln

    Blln

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2007
    Messages:
    706
    I really don't think Revenankh is very broken at all, I actually think he fits very nicely into the metagame. He certainly is very good, but I don't think he is very much better than much of the top 10 most used. Pokemon like Skarmory and Gyarados really do manage to stop him cold. My one major complaint about him would probably be Shedskin, because I do think it makes maybe a little unfairly difficult to deal with considering he practically has a status immunity, but otherwise I think he actually fits nicely into the metagame. He reminds me alot of a physical version of Suicune - if you are unprepared for him (namely if you lack a phazer) you'll have major problems with it, but if you are prepared, he isn't too large of a threat.

    Pyroak I also don't have a problem with, I don't think he is really even all that good - not that he needs to be improved or anything, just that I don't think he is even close to broken. Having a Stealth Rock weakness automatically makes a pokemon much easier to deal with. He is very effective when supported by a full stall team, but outside of stall, I haven't found him very useful, mostly because his typing doesn't really lend itself to countering too many specific threats, and often his slot would better be taken up by something like Gliscor or Vaporeon, but overall I think Pyroak was pretty successfull.

    Syclant is the only one I really take issue with. For some reason, nobody really seems to be exploiting him, in the same it seems that people weren't really exploiting wobbuffet when he was legal, but I think Syclant is extremely broken. This is mostly because of movepool, I think. In every other CAP we have been very careful about giving pokemon moves that might overpower them, or that might not fit flavorwise, however, Syclant has absolutely none of that same restrain.

    We argued for the longest time about whether Revenankh should get Thunder Punch, and whether Pyroak should get Earthquake, and in the end we decided that they would make the pokemon too hard to counter. Well, if that was the standard we were going to take with the other CAPs, then we should go back and evaluate Syclant with this same frame of mind. I mean really, why does Syclant have Earth Power and Superpower. We wouldn't dream of giving these moves to Pyroak because we thought that would Heatran unviable as a counter, but we didn't have a problem giving them to Syclant. I personally think Syclant should have a complete reassessment, both movepool and stats, to determine if he is maybe a little too much. The main moves I think should be rethought are Earth Power, Superpower, Focus Blast, and Tail Glow. These moves make it so that even pokemon like Heatran and Tentacruel, who should be hard counters, can be taken down easily, leaving the only iffy counters at Bronzong and Jirachi, and even then only barely.

    Basically, they way I see it, Pyroak is like a Swampert/Celebi/Zapdos type pokemon - very good, but not even remotely close to broken, just very solid, useful pokemon. Revenankh is like a Gengar or Lucario (not in playstyle, just in metagame impact), in that he is very good, definitely one of the best, but within reason. I think Syclant is essentially like Garchomp, or maybe even like the Latis or Darkrai or one of those other debatables - he is just a little too good. The difference though is that we have the power to tweak Syclant, and hopefully make him more fitted to OU.

    Of course thats just my opinion on it, and I'm sure many people might disagree. I just don't think Syclant is really being abused like he could, and in this case I think theorymon is a pretty useful tool. In my opinion, arguements like "I've never really had a problem with it" just further illustrate that people aren't using him well, because to me, just looking at Syclant, he looks like easily a Garchomp class pokemon.
  18. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Social Media Chief

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    7,103
    About the CAPs:

    Syclant: Well this one was our "learning curve". Cooper handled this brilliantly, just for the fact that we were an upstart fanboy project. I want to thank the mods at Stark Mountain for letting us live. Now, that being said, it was and still is the most fanboyish of the CAPs, and I listed what should be changed. Its nothing drastic, just a bit of "cleaning". It's not broken in the least, with Bronzong and Tentacruel stopping it cold.

    Revenankh: This was learning curve part deux. Hyra did a great job with this too. This is the most "broken" of the CAPs, but the main arguement against it doesn't make sense. If you let it set up, you were outplayed. You deserve to lose if you let it set up. How is it any different than a Bulky Gyara? The way to counter it is to pressure it with heavy special attackers with good defense and mediocre speed. Right now, the new CAP looks promising for a Revenankh check, so I don't suggest changing it now. Only time will tell what will happen with this.

    Pyroak: This is where everyone starts whining "ITS BL" and "IT SUCKS". No offense to G_T or anyone else instrimental in the making of it, but we were all scared. We saw what happened with Syclant and Revenankh before it, so we overcompensated a bit. This only needs a minor fix here and there to become OU. I personally don't believe it is or ever was BL, and won't believe it until you show me the stats. Until then, no changes are needed.
  19. Earthworm

    Earthworm
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL + WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 6 Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,648
    I have personally found Syclant to be the most threatening. It is too fast and has too wide a movepool. It is like a cross between Lucario and Deoxys-S - unpredictable to an extent and very difficult to counter.

    Revenankh is not very threatening to my particular playstyle and I made sure my team could handle it easily by keeping Skarmory healthy most of the time during the tournament. However, I did make an important adaption to help me beat Syclant if necessary - I gave it a lot more than usual SDef EVs and gave it a Careful nature (although I didn't use the defenses calculator so it should probably have been Bold anyway). I was not really concerned about Pyroak as to beat it you simply need to hit it reasonably hard. It has fewer recovery options than Spiritomb iirc which makes it easier to counter, and Pokemon like Infernape and Garchomp will give it difficulties thanks to its abusable neutralities, imperfect coverage and lack of Super Effective STABs.

    Syclant on the other hand is absurdly fast and can easily double its attacking power on a switch. To help handle it I gave all of my slow, defensive Pokemon additional SDef EVs (as I have already mentioned in Skarmory's case) and added Infernape since it resists both STABs, as well as two scarfers capable of OHKOing it.

    I definitely prepared myself the most for Syclant but it still gave me the most trouble.
  20. DiamondDust

    DiamondDust

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,787
    since there are no votes for pyroak, how well is he doing?
  21. Captain

    Captain
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2006
    Messages:
    278
    A short answer to that would be:

    It has it's own niche for sure, but it's still BL at least in comparison to the other two CaPs.
  22. AJC

    AJC

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    2,273
    i think all 3 are OK and balanced and not broken but i agree that scyant needs a movepool Trimming there is alot of unused moves

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)