How would you handle Wobbuffet?

But the point is to use Mean Look first. Is there a turn limit to mean look that I'm unaware of?
Gorm said Mean Look can be encored, AND calm mind can be encored. He did not mean both moves would be used by one pokemon.

So you said that encoring Calm Mind wouldn't help Wobb. It does help the Wobb user a lot.

Encoring ML would just lead to a stall battle as neither pokemon can attack or switch.

You seem to think this

Pokemon used ML
Wobb did something
Pokemon uses CM
Wobb used Encore

That isn't what would happen... it would go like this

Pokemon used ML
Wobb used encore


OR

Pokemon used CM
Wobb used Encore
Wobb switched
Pokemon used CM
 
Gorm said Mean Look can be encored, AND calm mind can be encored. He did not mean both moves would be used by one pokemon.

So you said that encoring Calm Mind wouldn't help Wobb. It does help the Wobb user a lot.

Encoring ML would just lead to a stall battle as neither pokemon can attack or switch.

You seem to think this

Pokemon used ML
Wobb did something
Pokemon uses CM
Wobb used Encore

That isn't what would happen... it would go like this

Pokemon used ML
Wobb used encore


OR

Pokemon used CM
Wobb used Encore
Wobb switched
Pokemon used CM
I'm confused, wouldn't the Magius user be alerted at the end of the term when Encore ended so that they would choose another move? In other words it would go

MM used Mean Look
Wobb used Encore

MM used Mean Look
Wobb used Safeguard

..etc

MM used Mean Look
Wobb used Encore
But It Failed!
MM's Encore wore off

MM used Calm Mind
Wobb used Encore

...4 turns later

MM used Calm mind
Wobb used Encore
But It Failed
MM's Encore wore off

MM used Shadow Ball
Wobb's head exploded.

Also it's impossible to Perish Song a Wobboffet unless you somehow think losing your Perish Trapper and wasting 5-8 turns is worthwhile. Having played with Wobb before, most people just use a Taunter or attempt to KO, although he's really effective at taking out one guy when played right.

In my experience the free turn you get with him doesn't always pan out, in fact rarely does. If you encore an attacking move you have to switch to an appropriate counter and retaliate and you know they'll switch as soon as your threat comes in. If you encore a stat upper either you could get unlucky and encore fades as you switch in your setupper or they switch as soon as the new guy comes in.

One turn isn't enough to do the gamebreaking Smeargle pass setup, I tried the trap pass combo with both Wobb and Umbreon and was unimpressed.

The only way Wobb's been a real threat is either with Wish support or the classic Wobtrio if the opponent goofs and gets encored on a stat move.
 
Most Mismagiuses do not carry both Mean Look, and Calm Mind.
Oh yeah duh, I forget that Perish Trap and CM sets are seperate, haven't used MM really. It would work though, although only for that situation, most pokes would just rip MM in half.

If you were to fight Wobb with MM, why not just use Shadow Ball as soon as you see it?

I never realized how useful Wobb is for annihilating walls until I read the other Wobb discussion, I've always thought the best way to deal with Wobb has been to hit it with the most damaging move you have.
 
Oh yeah duh, I forget that Perish Trap and CM sets are seperate, haven't used MM really. It would work though, although only for that situation, most pokes would just rip MM in half.

If you were to fight Wobb with MM, why not just use Shadow Ball as soon as you see it?

I never realized how useful Wobb is for annihilating walls until I read the other Wobb discussion, I've always thought the best way to deal with Wobb has been to hit it with the most damaging move you have.
If you shadow Ball the first time and it encores then you are screwed if you do not score a 2hko on it.

I can't run damage calc right now, so I am just guessing MM does not score a 2hko on wobb with Shadow Ball.
 
I'm confused, wouldn't the Magius user be alerted at the end of the term when Encore ended so that they would choose another move? In other words it would go

MM used Mean Look
Wobb used Encore

MM used Mean Look
Wobb used Safeguard

..etc

MM used Mean Look
Wobb used Encore
But It Failed!
MM's Encore wore off

MM used Calm Mind
Wobb used Encore

...4 turns later

MM used Calm mind
Wobb used Encore
But It Failed
MM's Encore wore off

MM used Shadow Ball
Wobb's head exploded.
This is what I had in mind. So Mean Look gets encored, big deal. Wait for it to wear off then start calm minding. Calm Mind until Wob would get obliterated, then wait for the encore to wear off to start attacking. The only way this would turn out bad is if there's a turn limit to mean look...is there?
 
Way to read what I posted after. There is probably only a handful of Mismaguis' that run both ML and CM. No other pokemon uses a combination of those two moves... (edit, scratch that, not even a handful run that set)

ML, and CM on one moveset simply to counter Wobb is just not that good in any other situation. That is why nobody would use Mismagius with such a set.

Please read ALL the other posts BEFORE you respond to someone


CM set

~ Calm Mind
~ Shadow Ball
~ Hidden Power Fighting / Thunderbolt
~ Substitute / Will-O-Wisp / Taunt

Do you see Mean Look? It isn't even listed as an option for the CM set, because it just wont work.


Now let us look at one set that does use Mean Look

~ Mean Look
~ Perish Song
~ Protect
~ Taunt / Substitute / Pain Split

Nope, no calm mind listed on the only one of Missy's sets that uses Mean Look... why? It just isnt practical
 
Actually, this has gotten me to think of a weird Dugtrio set that could trap and kill Wobba. How ironic

Dugtrio @ Life orb
EV's:252 Atk/252 Speed
Ability:Arena Trap
Nature:Adamant
-Toxic
-Substitute
-Earthquake
-Sucker Punch/Stone Edge

No matter what Wobbaffet does, it's trapped and going to die. You also end up with a sub :]
If I played OU, I would use this to revenge kill Wobba. Sure, they are guaranteed one kill with their Wobba, but Wobba is also guaranteed to die from Dug so it balances out. Not only that, but Dugtrio can also continue to do damage after Wobba dies since it will have a sub up. :O

Good thinking.

Please read ALL the other posts BEFORE you respond to someone
Or you'll strike him..? =\
 
Or you'll strike him..? =\
No, or he will look like an idiot for completely disregarding everything I said which would have explained to him that Mean Look, and Calm Mind ARE ALMOST NEVER used on the same damn set as it is not a good idea to use such a thing for the sole purpose of beating wobb.
 
I'm sorry I thought the title of the thread was "how do you handle wobbuffet?" not "what cookie cutter pokemon can handle wobbuffet?" The idea of the thread was to come up with wob counters. So what if most people don't use ML and CM together. It just so happens to be a Wob counter. You might as well be "ZOMG Toxic on Dugtrio NOOB"
 
I'm sorry I thought the title of the thread was "how do you handle wobbuffet?" not "what cookie cutter pokemon can handle wobbuffet?" The idea of the thread was to come up with wob counters. So what if most people don't use ML and CM together. It just so happens to be a Wob counter. You might as well be "ZOMG Toxic on Dugtrio NOOB"
Sorry, but you were acting as if it were a good idea to have ML and CM... toxic is actually viable on dugtrio, not just as a way to counter Wobb.

So yes, it is your way to handle Wobb, I understand. I am just arguing that it isn't a good one.
 
Simply said Mean Look and Calm Mind on a Mismagius wouldn't be ideal in the standard metagame. While it can be used to "counter" Wobba, it certainly isn't the "best" option nor is it really viable.
 

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Obviously eqing will result you losing hippo but that is a small price to play for at least 2 eq hits crippling the wobba or I just setup SR for the entire battle and wobba risk losing 12.5% each switchin and the risk of getting hit by my attacks adding possibly more damage.
I wouldn't use Stealth Rock in that situation.

If Wobbuffet is carrying Tickle, Wobbuffet just Encores, Tickles you down to -6/-6, then goes to Tar/Weavile and crushes you (and it's worse since you can't stay in even if the Encore ends because EQ won't do enough).
 
I wouldn't use Stealth Rock in that situation.

If Wobbuffet is carrying Tickle, Wobbuffet just Encores, Tickles you down to -6/-6, then goes to Tar/Weavile and crushes you (and it's worse since you can't stay in even if the Encore ends because EQ won't do enough).
Which is fine as the whole entire point was to lay SR and "let hippo die". You aren't playing to win that one particular match up, you're playing to give yourself a better chance to win the game. In both cases I either damage wobba with 2-3 EQs before fainting or setup Stealth rocks for the remainder of the match(excluding any rapid spin later on in the match).

You missed the point of trying to play to win the battle in the end and not a specific match up during the match. I lost hippo that's fine I'm down 5-6 with either a wobba that has taken damage or my opponent has to face me with SR down.
 

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Which is fine as the whole entire point was to lay SR and "let hippo die". You aren't playing to win that one particular match up, you're playing to give yourself a better chance to win the game. In both cases I either damage wobba with 2-3 EQs before fainting or setup Stealth rocks for the remainder of the match(excluding any rapid spin later on in the match).

You missed the point of trying to play to win the battle in the end and not a specific match up during the match. I lost hippo that's fine I'm down 5-6 with either a wobba that has taken damage or my opponent has to face me with SR down.
No, I got that point; I was just saying that SR shouldn't even be an option (as trying to set up anything with a slower pokemon versus Wobbffet shouldn't be). Fine, you get up Stealth Rock, while not inflicting any damage on Wobbuffet at all. What happens when I bring in my Spinner (assuming you don't have a ghost to block it)? Now Hippowdon is dead, you have no rocks on the field and one of your best defensive pokemon is gone. Where the only damage I have taken is the 12.5% to Tar/ the 25% to Weavile/ the 6.25% to Metagross/etc. from Stealth Rock.



It was a minor point of contention I guess but really it's a bad idea to use setup moves against Wobbuffet, unless you're faster and are looking to predict a counter/mirror coat to get a Nasty Plot/Swords Dance in.
 
W/E just personal experience on how I dealt with the pokemon but generally my ideal strategy against wobba is to just hit and losing that 1 pokemon rather than doing nothing and letting him setup to sweep my 6. I find that wobba isn't that hard to take down just need to think more about the entire situation rather than "oh shit i don't want this pokemon to die" then u let yourself get setup on. Having to have played IPL(Council or Doorman) several times with his well built stall team, wobba can be a bitch to beat but it all comes down to thinking out the whole situation and making the most "logical" decision.


This is actually what I was going for in the last paragraph of my OP just better worded. Thanks goofball
 
I DC. Cuz if someone uses Wob, they got nothing better to do with that space. No offence to Wobba users.
 
No, I got that point; I was just saying that SR shouldn't even be an option (as trying to set up anything with a slower pokemon versus Wobbffet shouldn't be). Fine, you get up Stealth Rock, while not inflicting any damage on Wobbuffet at all. What happens when I bring in my Spinner (assuming you don't have a ghost to block it)? Now Hippowdon is dead, you have no rocks on the field and one of your best defensive pokemon is gone. Where the only damage I have taken is the 12.5% to Tar/ the 25% to Weavile/ the 6.25% to Metagross/etc. from Stealth Rock.



It was a minor point of contention I guess but really it's a bad idea to use setup moves against Wobbuffet, unless you're faster and are looking to predict a counter/mirror coat to get a Nasty Plot/Swords Dance in.
Why not? I already stated that I'm running a defensive team and I believe that I can stop most setups. I can risk getting setup on as I still have other ways to defend against other threats. Also, I stated in my original post that it is not the best choice to typically setup on Wobba but it is the situation and the flow of the match that determine your moves.

I do agree with you that it is not ideal to setup rocks against wobba but everything is dictated by how the match is being played.
 

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Why not? I already stated that I'm running a defensive team and I believe that I can stop most setups. I can risk getting setup on as I still have other ways to defend against other threats. Also, I stated in my original post that it is not the best choice to typically setup on Wobba but it is the situation and the flow of the match that determine your moves.

I do agree with you that it is not ideal to setup rocks against wobba but everything is dictated by how the match is being played.
The problem with that of course is that Wobbuffet is still alive and pretty well.

As you said, the best way to deal with Wobbuffet is to cut your losses - make sure that Wobbuffet can only kill one pokemon at most. In the scenario above, not only do you lose Hippowdon to a Pursuit revenge kill (of course, if they don't have a Pursuiter or don't Tickle, this situation is moot) but you've failed to inflict significant damage to it...and since you run a defensive team (and I don't know your team, but in general, Wobbuffet can switch in easily on such teams), Wobbuffet has more chances to wreak havoc.

Contrast it with simply EQing it 6-7 times while it sets up.

Damage: 15.55% - 18.43% after Tickle #1
Damage: 11.90% - 13.82% after Tickle #2
Damage: 9.60% - 11.32% after Tickle #3
Damage: 8.06% - 9.40%
Damage: 6.91% - 8.25%
Damage: 6.14% - 7.29%

Worst case scenario, against a 0/252 Positive Nature Wobbuffet with Leftovers, by simply attacking while Tickles, you do over 50% damage to it. And with so many hits, there is a reasonable chance you get bailed out with a CH, either against Wobbuffet or against the switchin.

(of course, Wobbuffet probably shouldn't be Tickling 6 times knowing that it's not getting Leftovers recovery but then again, Hippowdon has a chance of surviving Pursuit on the switch with anything less than 6 if it's not max atk Adamant CBTar (even SDef oriented CBTar needs 6 Tickles to guarantee the OHKO)

Even if you can keep Stealth Rock out on the field, because your team is defensive, there are many situations where I could bring in Wobbuffet easily, and even in a weakened condition take out another one of your walls.

If you would provide a counter-example where Stealth Rock would indeed be the best move against a lead Wobbuffet, detail it, but for right now, I honestly can't see it. Note however, we're talking about the first exchange of the match - that is what your inital example of Hippowdon v.s Wobbuffet pertains to - as you said, everything is dictated by how the match is being played. The most important thing to consider is whether the potential Pursuiter/revenge-killer is out of play. If yes, then it actually becomes the more viable option to set up, because that immediately forces Wobbuffet out, and since your team can deal with most setups, that works to your advantage.

(If the revenge-killer is still in play, the only point where setting up is viable is in a predictive sense - you have an offensive threat like Garchomp against a full-health Wobbuffet that you know can take your hit and Counter; in that scenario, it could be a great option to Swords Dance in Wobbuffet's face, hit with a boosted Outrage or Earthquake and present a massive threat to the rest of the team.)
 
It's allowed in the shoddy ladder play however... =\
Then fuck shoddy.

The whole "taunt, u-turn, BP screws it up" argument is invalid because unless all 6 of yours have it, which means it overcentralizes the metagame, you'll be vulnerable to wobba. On average someone will have maybe one pokemon with one of those moves. Wobba pretty much requires you don't have a pokemon vulnerable to it or it'll always get at least one kill and possibly screw your whole team over.

Besides that, Wobbuffet stops every pokemon, except another Wobbuffet, from switching. Switching is an important part of competitive Pokemon.

If Wobbuffet becomes OU I quit.
 
Then fuck shoddy.

The whole "taunt, u-turn, BP screws it up" argument is invalid because unless all 6 of yours have it, which means it overcentralizes the metagame, you'll be vulnerable to wobba. On average someone will have maybe one pokemon with one of those moves. Wobba pretty much requires you don't have a pokemon vulnerable to it or it'll always get at least one kill and possibly screw your whole team over.

Besides that, Wobbuffet stops every pokemon, except another Wobbuffet, from switching. Switching is an important part of competitive Pokemon.

If Wobbuffet becomes OU I quit.
This post is so bad I can't tell if it's serious or not.
 

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