Ie. If you want a good poke or a bad one. This thing is just outclassed, as all of its sets can be better accomplished by something else. (Flygon for Scarf, Lati@s for Specs/Scarf, Mence for Mixed)
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Hydreigon
- Thread starter R.B.G.
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Flygon has a higher speed tier, immunity to must hazards (useful for a scout), and can revenge more effectively. Sazandora has Fire Blast over the Latis, and they are far better in any situation thanks to their higher speed and better typing
The base 99-110 speed group is what prevents Latios from going the bulky Modest route. Sazandora is not outrunning this group anyway, so lessening its speed literally makes no difference to it in the long run. In the case of Latios (and Latias), however, it REALLY appreciates being able to outrun and KO the likes of Salamence, Manaphy, Urugamosu, Garchomp, Infernape, Terakion, Zapdos, Kojondo, and Genosect, and at least tying with Gengar and opposing Lati twins. These pokemon threaten Latios and it needs to be able to outrun them in a pinch, which Modest does not allow.
2HKOing most other steels isn't as good as a OHKO. In the case of Latios, I can easily bring in Metagross or Jirachi and then pivot switch out after HP Fire fails to OHKO. That means at least one more switch-in and one more round of prediction mind-games at the least. Sazandora can OHKO them both. Also remember that Sazandora also has access to Surf, so there is no need to weigh that as an issue.
Taunt is a pretty big deal, in my opinion. For one, Latios has better things to do than CM + Recover, which is best left to Latias. I'll admit that they are both pretty equally viable against stall, but against balanced teams the difference is huge. Latias cannot CM up in the face of opposing pressure and a potential revenge-killer, leaving those walls relatively unharmed (I'm referring to the Dragon Pulse / CM / Roar / Recover set here). Sazzy, on the other hand, can at least Taunt a Bloongell or Heatran switch-in before going to a counter.
sazandora is neutral to SR and also got levitate(Thus is immune to all other entry hazards). the higher speed tier flygon finds himself in doesnt matter a lot because the only thing he is outspeeding that sazandora is not is geno. speed tying with other base 100 pokemons at +1 is not reliable at all as far revenge killing goes(the only godamn reason you should ever run scarf flygon). anything faster will crush flygon in a flash, sazandora can actually take a hit thanks to his above average defenses and hp.
i dont consider dragon\psychic a better typing by any means compared to dragon\dark Bar the fighting resist, which is barely comparable to a dark and ghost resist, both which the lati@s are weak to. you are also giving little credit to sazandora pursuit resist, something scarf lati@s would kill for. besides that though i consider the significant base speed difference more important on the scarf set. that different however is not that important on a specs set which sazandora IMO outclass thanks to better movepool and higher special atack.
being outclassed on the mixed set by mence can also be argued. the only reason you would run mixed sazandora in the first place is to kill bliss with outrage(or a stronger u-turn lol) which he is capable of doing(2hko) with little atack investment and a neutral nature. sazandora special atack is important here, being higher then mence means he can cause more damage with draco meteor once the enemy special wall is gone what is pretty simple thanks to the fact you are running a mixed set.
problems with sazandora are the fact he cant even risk a speed tie with those base 100 thanks to his unique trollish base speed. and while his atack is higher then flygon its still nothing to brag about(that also count as a insult to flygon), being just high enough to deal significant damage to special walls with outrage. mach punch weakness is also a problem, something the lati@s dont fear(pursuit weakness offset that advantage though).
he is not outclassing any of the dragons you mentioned by any means but you are giving him little credit by saying he is the one getting outclassed by all of them.
i dont consider dragon\psychic a better typing by any means compared to dragon\dark Bar the fighting resist, which is barely comparable to a dark and ghost resist, both which the lati@s are weak to. you are also giving little credit to sazandora pursuit resist, something scarf lati@s would kill for. besides that though i consider the significant base speed difference more important on the scarf set. that different however is not that important on a specs set which sazandora IMO outclass thanks to better movepool and higher special atack.
being outclassed on the mixed set by mence can also be argued. the only reason you would run mixed sazandora in the first place is to kill bliss with outrage(or a stronger u-turn lol) which he is capable of doing(2hko) with little atack investment and a neutral nature. sazandora special atack is important here, being higher then mence means he can cause more damage with draco meteor once the enemy special wall is gone what is pretty simple thanks to the fact you are running a mixed set.
problems with sazandora are the fact he cant even risk a speed tie with those base 100 thanks to his unique trollish base speed. and while his atack is higher then flygon its still nothing to brag about(that also count as a insult to flygon), being just high enough to deal significant damage to special walls with outrage. mach punch weakness is also a problem, something the lati@s dont fear(pursuit weakness offset that advantage though).
he is not outclassing any of the dragons you mentioned by any means but you are giving him little credit by saying he is the one getting outclassed by all of them.
Sorry about the name thing. Anyway, my point is, I would not under any circumstances run a specs latios with psycho shock and use it as a mixed attacker. if you use it in a special LO set then fine, but never use it as a choiced "mixed attacker." Honestly, I would run a totally different thing if I were to run mixed Latios. even so, Latios rarely ever runs a mixed set anyway. bottom line: Latios-Specs and special LO, Sazandora- special LO and mixed attacker/wallbreaker.
I've been experimenting with this set on PO, and it works GREAT(i just had to put it in caps)
Sazandora@Life Orb
Levitate
252 Spe/252 Sp.A/6HP/Timid(-Atk +Spe)
Draco Meteor
Surf
Flamethrower
Dark Pulse
USE IT IN THE LEAD POSITION!!
It usually kills the lead in one hit(if not, then 2), and usually it nabs 1-2 kills after that.
Sazandora@Life Orb
Levitate
252 Spe/252 Sp.A/6HP/Timid(-Atk +Spe)
Draco Meteor
Surf
Flamethrower
Dark Pulse
USE IT IN THE LEAD POSITION!!
It usually kills the lead in one hit(if not, then 2), and usually it nabs 1-2 kills after that.
why should your foe switch in something slower after he's seen the life orb?
Blightbringer
Banned deucer.
The lead position is no longer as effective as it used to be
The first few teams I had included the following
Hydreigon@Life Orb
Naive
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
Surf
U-turn
it was mostly lead spot, and Naive was used to make U-turn hit harder, it worked nicely when I used it, not sure how it works out now, though.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Naive (+Atk, -SpD)
60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
-Dark Pulse
-Fire Blast
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
The Speed EVs allow Hydreigon to outspeed Jolly Luke and neutral base 100s, and the Atk EVs let Hydreigon 2HKO 252/252 Bold Blissey with Outrage, factoring in SR and Leftovers. This works great, since Dark Pulse + DM will 2HKO just about everything, and when you get tired of Blissey switching into you, use Outrage for the kill. Outrage is cool when you've used up your DM too.
Naive (+Atk, -SpD)
60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
-Dark Pulse
-Fire Blast
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
The Speed EVs allow Hydreigon to outspeed Jolly Luke and neutral base 100s, and the Atk EVs let Hydreigon 2HKO 252/252 Bold Blissey with Outrage, factoring in SR and Leftovers. This works great, since Dark Pulse + DM will 2HKO just about everything, and when you get tired of Blissey switching into you, use Outrage for the kill. Outrage is cool when you've used up your DM too.
once again you are posting ignorant statements...
sazandora is a lot different of a scarfer than flygon as she uses special moves,has different typing and has less difficulty ohkoing the pokes that it must revengekill...of course if you want to outrun or speed tie anything with base 100 speed or less at +1 go with flygon..
latios with specs or scarf is easily taken care of with a good pursuiter after he kills something...sazandora doesn't have this problem...
also specs sazandora can afford to run modest 'cause he doesn't get outsped by many critical threats that he outspeeds with timid,instead of latios so practically sazando has more sp.atc when utilizing specs.
also he has actual fire attacks,earth power (which can murder heatran and instead of surf can also screw many other steels),stab dark pulse which helps greatly against against burungeru dusclops and bulky psychics in general and finally focus blast which is always an option...
also sazandora has u-turn which is always very useful on choice users but it limits coverage...also sazandora doesn't care at all about wobbuffer cause of her immunity to mirror coat and if it is physical cause of u-turn,while latios in the other hand gets killed if it's choiced or gets setup on if it choses not to attack.sazandora is in no way outclassed by latios...
and finally about salamence in most cases mixmence outclasses mixed sazandora but sazandora does better in some special cases like breaking bulky psychics with dark pulse or raping physically defensive pokes much more with her stronger draco meteor!
sazandora is not outclassed by any dragon!he is a unique dragon that fills unique roles better than other dragons...
Naive is +Sp.Attack -Sp.Def
You probably meant Naughty nature,right?
Naive is +Speed -SDef.
After the arguement about Latias vs Hydregion, I tried to make a Choice set that isn't outclassed by Specs Latias
Hydregion @Choice Specs/Expert Belt
Modest 4 Atk/252 SpAtk/252 Spd
~Draco Meteor
~Fire Blast
~Surf
~U-turn
This set attempts to one-up the omnipresent Specs DM Latias by abusing a wider movepool. Fire off a Draco Meteor when you want to cause some major damage. The other three moves are there to use if you predict an intelligent switch. Fire blast can KO almost all steels besides Heatran, which is dealt with Surf. Surf also pounds bulky grounds such as Hippowdon and the Specs version can 2HKO offensive T-tar. U-turn is for Blissey and other bulky walls such as Porygon2 that you can't blow your way through. Expert belt is an option to bluff Choice and to ease prediction.
Hydregion @Choice Specs/Expert Belt
Modest 4 Atk/252 SpAtk/252 Spd
~Draco Meteor
~Fire Blast
~Surf
~U-turn
This set attempts to one-up the omnipresent Specs DM Latias by abusing a wider movepool. Fire off a Draco Meteor when you want to cause some major damage. The other three moves are there to use if you predict an intelligent switch. Fire blast can KO almost all steels besides Heatran, which is dealt with Surf. Surf also pounds bulky grounds such as Hippowdon and the Specs version can 2HKO offensive T-tar. U-turn is for Blissey and other bulky walls such as Porygon2 that you can't blow your way through. Expert belt is an option to bluff Choice and to ease prediction.
i use the following hydreigon as a lead:
hydeigon@choice scarf
naive 60 atk/196 sp.atk/252 spd
outrage
u-turn
draco meteor
fire blast
it works wonders as a lead it can be an effective scout with u-turn and it can rape teams with draco meteor, and also i've found it to have reltively good synergy with latios i use the together at a team and their d-meteors rape most things...also outrage does a nice amount of damage...
hydeigon@choice scarf
naive 60 atk/196 sp.atk/252 spd
outrage
u-turn
draco meteor
fire blast
it works wonders as a lead it can be an effective scout with u-turn and it can rape teams with draco meteor, and also i've found it to have reltively good synergy with latios i use the together at a team and their d-meteors rape most things...also outrage does a nice amount of damage...
Mixed Hydreigon does have the advantage of a great secondary STAB over MixMence. MixMence has to put himself at -2 SpA if it wants to hit hard on the special side while Hydra can just fire off Dark Pulses.
Outrage is only there for Blissey since I don't believe anything else can take a second hit from LO Hydreigon after switching into Dark Pulse.
Does the Outrage actually hurt Blissey, does anyone have the damage calcs?
I know Wishbliss can outstall Scarfchomp's Outrages, so I wouldn't put much faith on Hydreigon's...
Choice Scarf Outrage from Sazandora isn't all that great. You kind of have to go free mix or special attacker to use him. And bulky Sazandora is kind of cool since you could invest enough speed to outrun base 90s (or even go slower for even more power) and survive Breloom Mach Punch at full health (item of choice is obviously not Life Orb then since you don't want that). What is cool about Saz is that it doesn't need to lock itself in unlike Latios for the most power and doesn't fear healthy Tyranitars with Pursuit. It also has a pretty good second stab. And most people don't beat Sazandora by speed usually anyhow so you could even drop some.
Draco Meteor/Flamethrower(blast)/U-Turn/Dark Pulse with Expert Belt is pretty cool.
Draco Meteor/Flamethrower(blast)/U-Turn/Dark Pulse with Expert Belt is pretty cool.
Life Orb...
Mixed Hydreigon should be running Outrage / Crunch / Fire Blast / Draco Meteor with Lonely and 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe.
Crunch vs:
252/252+ Blissey: 40.9% - 48.3%
252/252+ Reuniclus: 65.6% - 77.8%
252/252+ Jellicent: 71.3% - 84.7%
252/120 Tentacruel: 53.6% - 62.9%
252/252+ Vaporeon: 33.8% - 40.1%
252/152+ Hippowdon: 26.4% - 31.4%
Outrage vs:
252/252+ Blissey: 61.1% - 72%
252/252+ Reuniclus: 49.5% - 58.3%
252/252+ Jellicent: 53.7% - 63.4%
252/120 Tentacruel: 79.4% - 94%
252/252+ Vaporeon: 51.1% - 60.3%
252/152+ Hippowdon: 40% - 47.1%
Fire Blast vs:
252/252+ Skarmory: 74.3% - 87.4%
252/160+ Nattorei: 109.1% - 128.4% (OHKO)
240/76 Jirachi: 62.8% - 74.3%
252/104 Hippowdon: 37.1% - 43.8%
Draco Meteor vs:
252/0 Gliscor: 85% - 100.3%
252/104 Hippowdon: 64.5% - 76.4%
252/4 Vaporeon: 53.2% - 62.9%
252/4 Blissey: 25.8% - 30.4%
- Blissey is 2HKOed by Crunch + Outrage. Chance of 2HKO with Draco Meteor + Outrage.
- Reuniclus is 2HKOed by any move (including Fire Blast) + Crunch
- Hippowdon is 2HKOed by Fire Blast + Draco Meteor, or Draco Meteor + Outrage.
- Gliscor is 2HKOed by any move + Draco Meteor. Chance of OHKO with Draco Meteor.
- Vaporeon is 2HKOed by Crunch + Draco Meteor with Stealth Rock, or Draco Meteor + Outrage.
- Reuniclus is 2HKOed by Fire Blast/Crunch + Crunch/Draco Meteor, or Crunch + Outrage.
- Jellicent is 2HKOed by Draco Meteor/Crunch + Outrage/Crunch.
- Tentacruel is 2HKOed by Crunch + Crunch/Outrage, or Draco Meteor + Outrage.
- Skarmory is 2HKOed by Fire Blast + Outrage/Crunch/Fire Blast.
- Nattorei is OHKOed by Fire Blast.
- Jirachi is 2HKOed by Crunch/Fire Blast + Fire Blast.
Hydreigon 2HKOs a lot of walls and tanks, as you can see. It has the advantage of not being forced into Outrage in order to hit stuff hard on the physical side, unlike Salamence. There's probably other calculations I could run, but I think those are the most important defensive threats. It's really effective.
I'd personally go for speed over power...
either way, it does show the great usefulness of mixed sazandora/hydreigon.
Used well, it can tear teams to shreds.
susceptible to revenge killing, unfortunately...
either way, it does show the great usefulness of mixed sazandora/hydreigon.
Used well, it can tear teams to shreds.
susceptible to revenge killing, unfortunately...
I did use this thing online once as a choice scarfer, it ran through two pokemon with Dark Pulse, a Seaking with one shot, and a Rotom-W with two, and lucky for me i got flinch hax on the Rotom so it wasn't able to counter.