In-game tiers

[BlueCookies]

I've gone through these games a ton in my pokemon career, and they still have the most fun ingames. These are a few things that stuck out at me, and they are for G/S, not Crystal, although I may post my Crystal tier list later, since that is a lot easier for me because I play that more than G/S:

OU
-Paras to BL
The only thing going for Paras is cut and spore. Cut is not very significant because you only need to use it once during all of Johto, and there are many other pokemon to use cut. Spore is a great move, but we all know how much Chikorita sucks ingame, well so does Paras, and it's not a starter and has worse stats. It's not OU material.
-Hoothoot to BL
Hoothoot does have Fly, which is very useful ingame, but deciding to train it isn't a good idea. Noctowl is terrible stat wise, and doesn't even learn any good attacks outside of Hypnosis.
-Zubat to BL
I trained a Zubat before, and all the grinding you had to do in the beginning of the game with it was terrible. If it didn't take long to evolve into Crobat, that would be one thing but maxing its Happiness takes a decent amount of time and it will usually happen when you're in the mid 30's. Now Crobat is a great pokemon for ingame. It gets Fly, which is very useful, and it's very fast.

BL
-Geodude to OU
Geodude absolutely destroys the first half of Johto, and most of the toughest Gym Leaders are the ones that Geodude dominates, giving him many bonus points. Scythers Fury Cutter can be really tough if you don't have cyndaquil, Miltank's Rollout is very tough regardless of which starter you have. Learning Magnitude and Rock Throw early is great, and his stabs are excellent. Graveler can even Selfdestruct if you are having some trouble with a Gym Leader/E4 member/Blue/Red. Graveller is fine stat wise for ingame, he doesn't even need to evolve to Golem in order to be one of the best choices ingame.
-Abra to OU
How Abra isn't OU is beyond me. There are a ton of trainers around Goldenrod to help him level up to a Kadabra, he can even fight for himself with the punches, and his SpAtk and speed are sky high. Definitely a top OU. He Creams the Rockets, and is great against most gym leaders and most of the E4.
-Wooper to OU
You get him early, he has great stabs, evolves early, and even learns EQ naturally at a pretty low level. He can Surf for you, and Quagsire can learn Ice Punch and be able to fit Strength on its movepool. A top tier OU if you ask me.
-Mareep to OU
Mareep and the pokemon who I'm about to suggest for OU next are the ones that I think would be the worst OU's, but the best BL's, so it's a tough call but I'll talk about them anyway. Mareep is caught early, can T-Punch, Fire Punch, and has high Sp.Atk as an Ampharos.
-Machop to OU
Even without evolving into Machamp, Machoke has very high Atk, can fit Strength on its moveset, can Cross Chop, and even Ice punch if you are really having trouble with Lance for some reason(Machoke doesn't need to have high Sp.Atk to take out Lance's Dragonites).

UU
-Dratini to BL
Dratini isn't that great, I'll admit it. It will evolve to Dragonite very late(Around the time you will fight Blue), but Dragonair isn't that bad. You can get Dratini in the game corner in Goldenrod for 2100 coins iirc, which isn't much, and it can surf for you. I don't think it is bad enough to be UU though.

Pokemon not on your lists
-Heracross to OU
You can get Hera pretty early, he has monstorous atk, and can use Strength on its movest(Actually, Strength will be its strongest attack if you don't use Return, and Take Down has bad accuracy but it could help if you're using Reversal). Strength actually KO's many pokemon in one hit, because of heracross' atk. Reversal is useful in some situations, and it can Dynamic Punch if you really want it to. If you don't have anything better to teach EQ, Heracross can use it to great success.
-Slowpoke to BL
I'm surprised this wasn't anywhere on your list Mekkah. He is caught early, and I would say he belongs in OU if it weren't for the fact that he evolves very late. He can Surf, Shadow Ball, and Confusion/Water gun will make due until then.
-Miltank to BL
He's caught somewhat early, but he's rare and most of your pokemon will be at a mich higher level. Other than that, he's great. Milk Drink is a great recovery move, and can heal your other party pokemon, and it can use stab Strength, and Body Slam.
-Chinchou to BL
Because of a lack of good water pokemon in G/S other than Totodile, Chinchou becomes very useful. He matches up well against many Gym Leaders and some of the E4. He can Surf, and has Thunder/Spark, depending on if you want to spend money at the game corner on the Thunder TM.
-Lapras to BL
I have been able to do this many times, and I'm sure it won't be hard if you have a good idea of time. When you choose what day it is at the start of the game, predict how long it will take you to get the Surf HM, and based on that decide what day it is. Other than that and the work it takes to backtrack to lapras, it's a great candidate for ingame. Great stabs and it learns Ice beam naturally and at a pretty low level. It also learns surf since it's a water type, and in G/S where you can't get a water stone until nearly the end of the game, lapras is definitely a pokemon to considder for your team.

I know there are others that aren't on your list Mekkah, but I didn't really care enough about them to really post anything about them. I am more knowledgable about the Crystal ingame than G/S ingame, so I may post my tier list for that tomorrow, if anyone even cares.

 

[Yuri]

What is frustrating about Lapras is the horde of relatively strong wild pokemons and trainers that you have to face before it. Okay, they are not overwhelming but not a cakewalk either. What if wild Tentacruel poisons or Cooltrainer Zach's Graveler critical hits your sleep inducer? Yeah yeah, heal, reset since you just saved; you're taking twenty minutes to REACH that Lapras.

 

[BlueCookies]

What is frustrating about Lapras is the horde of relatively strong wild pokemons and trainers that you have to face before it. Okay, they are not overwhelming but not a cakewalk either. What if wild Tentacruel poisons or Cooltrainer Zach's Graveler critical hits your sleep inducer? Yeah yeah, heal, reset since you just saved; you're taking twenty minutes to REACH that Lapras.

Wild pokemon are only in the low twenties, and you are able to run away from them. If you were able to beat Morty, I see no reason why you should have trouble with any of the trainers. However, I agree that the time it takes to backtrack and go catch Lapras is not worth it being OU(This is all assuming you were able to correctly choose what day to set in the beginning of the game). If Lapras' tier placement was based solely on its negative qualities, it would be OU. However, once you catch Lapras, it's very good, for reasons already mentioned by other people and myself throughout the thread. Averaging the good and bad out, I would say lapras should be BL, as I proposed.

 

[ChronoSquare]

On about D/P tier:
Turtwig > Chimchar, because of the alternatives. Both are good at the first gym (Chim can have easily become Monferno w/ mach punch by then). Chimchar > Turtwig for gym 2, making it 2-1. Turtwig > Chimchar for gym 4; 2-2. Turtwig is better than Char for gym 5 as it can have Bite (I believe you need to breed for Crunch) to help, gym 6 EQ/Fighting respectively owns, and Chim beats gym 7 while Turtwig beats gym 8. They are obivously fairly even when it comes to beating the game.

However, the reason I believe Turtwig > Chimchar is because of the alternatives. Infernape and Rapidash are the only in-game fires, and either is fine for the coverage they give (Rapidash can bounce fightings, and megahorns psychics). Amongst the grass types (Torterra, Wormadam, Cherim, Roserade, Carnivine) Torterra is the clear winner with very little alternative, as Worm and Cherim do little except grass moves, and for Roserade it's unlikely you'll find a Budew/Roselia with a good HP move, which limits its attack to Solarbeam/Weather Ball (norm or fire w/ sunny day) and the fire attack is redundant coverage. It does get paralysis, but I'd rather have the type coverage of Torterra vs. paralysis.



And on another tangent... are we going to count RBY separate from FRLG? Because in my last playthrough of LG, I decided to use Clefable... and even though I kept it a clefairy through most of the game so it could have Meteor Mash (I found one with +atk nature), when I got to fighting Gary at Sliph Co. I practically beat his entire team with Clefairy's sing + return XD (I also managed to use Butterfree a ridiculously long time, like to lv 30+, because of its powders...)

 

[Sticky Topic]

I think OU in RB should look something like this:

Squirtle
Charmander
Nidoran
Bulbasar
Spearow
Zapdos

In Yellow Squirtle/Charmander/Bulbasaur get booted from this list and Nidoran (male) is the best.

Squirtle is the most effective since it does not have any problems with the first couple of gyms and it can use Dig to beat Surge even if it is weak to electric attacks. It is also the most useful of the starters in endgame because it doesn't have any problems with any of the E4 and can use X-Accuracy + Fissure to dominate just about everything there.

Charmander is not as useful as Squirtle simply because it faces problems with Brock and Lance especially whereas Blastoise does not have problems with them, but otherwise Charmander is simillar but it scores more OHKOs due to the Fire attacks in the early game.

Nidoran comes early, has an amazing movepool, and it gets Fissure and Horn Drill making it likely the best candidate for Elixer when facing the Elite 4. In RB it suffers a bit though because its not as immediatly effective as Charmander and Squirtle are.

Earlier on in the game Bulbasaur does fine for the gyms, but its movepool is lacking as it only gets Tackle and Vine Whip which causes problems. After a while it gets Body Slam which is fine, but the other starters get Dig, and Bulbasaur has to rely on a slower method to sweep the Elite 4. He is fine, but overshadowed by the other starters.

I'm not too sure with Spearow, but it does a good job at dealing with the bugs earlier on in the game, and it does decently later on until the Elite 4 where it becomes practically useless.

Zapdos is obviously here because it starts out at level 50, and it requires no actual effort to use it.

In Yellow Nidoran is the absolute best, and Charmander/Bulbasaur/Squirtle just aren't worth the effort anymore.

Just as Ice / Electric / Psychic are the key types to defeat E4 in RBY

I would say that OHKO moves are the key to beating the E4 in RBY.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Having just played through the first half of Blue version, I have to say that Clefairy really exceeded my expectations, although it does require quite a few HMs to be effective. It's going to be hogging Body Slam, and it's probably going to want something like Psychic, Thunderbolt, or Ice Beam as well. Dugtrio is definitely top tier, at the time that he becomes available he is probably at least several levels higher than your party. Finding Dugtrio is easy enough, just take a party member that is in their mid-twenties and stick it in the lead, then parade about Digglet's cave with repel. You should be at a sufficiently high level to repel Digglets, but you should be able to encounter Dugtrios. It's definitely a candidate for best "pre-promote" in the game. It's on par with Snorlax in level (though not necessarily strength) and comes with an excellent STAB (remember, Dig has 100 power in RBY) and comes much earlier than Snorlax.

In RB (i.e. not yellow), Nidoran doesn't get Double Kick (making it pretty much worthless against Brock) but it's still very useful early game. One thing is that while Nidoking is probably superior to Nidoqueen if he is going to be your primary party member, Nidoqueen may actually be better if you're keeping your party level even. Male Nidoran has the advantage early on, learning Horn Attack when the female Nidoran gets the pitiful Scratch attack. However, at level 23, Nidoking learns Thrash while Nidoqueen learns Body Slam. If Nidoking is overleveled, Trash is a great attack--you get three hits and only have to consume one PP. However, if those three hits aren't enough to mop the field with, you're going to have to do some switching. Nidoqueen's Body Slam, though only slightly more powerful than Nidoking's Trash (remember, Nidoking has naturally higher attack), is considerably more useful. However, Nidoqueen is outclassed by Nidoking late game when it comes to Earthquake late-game, and both are outclassed by Snorlax late-game (who has naturally higher attack power and a STAB with more PP and the potential to paralyze).

Kadabra is actually quite useful. I didn't pick up Abra as early as I could have and he still turned out to be quite helpful. On the way from Vermillion to Cerulean after beating Lt. Surge, I happened to pick up an Abra, and halfway to the entrance of Rock Tunnel, he had gotten enough experience from trainers to evolve. After that, he required no babysitting, and went from level 16 to 18 using experience from the remaining trainers before he fainted. (He could have gotten a lot more experience if I'd been willing to spend a potion on him.) Inside rock tunnel, he made short work of the various rock types that Hikers threw at him, and a lot of Lasses and such had stuff like Oddish and Bellsprout which fell quickly to Confusion. He had learned Psybeam by the time I got to Celadon.

One thing I discovered is that the game provides you with an incredible amount of freedom mid-game. Here's the route that I followed:

1. Traditional route from Pallet town to Cerulean city (Nidoran and, in my case, Bulbasaur pulled most of the weight here), pick up something to use Cut en route
2. Routes 24 and 25 to get the SS ticket
3. Cerulean Gym, get Dig TM
4. Buy repel, detour to Digglet's Cave to pick up a Dugtrio (and possibly Flash, although it's optional) as well as the fossils from the Pewter lab (and optionally the Dream Eater TM from Veridian as well)
5. If you didn't visit the Pokemon Centers in Pewter or Viridian, you can use Teleport or Dig to shortcut back to Vermillion. Take care of SS Anne, get Body Slam TM and Cut HM, Bike Voucher
6. Lt. Surge, Dugtrio helped here
7. Backtrack to Cerulean, get Bike, trek eastward to Rock Tunnel
8. Route through Rock Tunnel to Lavender. Revive is available for purchase.
9. Head west to Celadon.

This is where things start to get interesting. Here's the minimalist route from here:

10. Venture westward and get Fly, then Fly back to Celadon. Go to the department store and buy two Pokedolls (or one if you don't care about trading for the Mimic TM), as well as one of each drink to trade with the girl on the rooftop. Also grab at least one extra fresh water for the guard, and possibly some extra fresh waters for yourself (they're pretty economical compared to most potions). Get Eevee from the Celadon mansion.
11. Go to Saffron and get the Psychic TM.
12. Fly to Lavander. Climb the tower. Since you don't have the Silph scope, the only encounters you'll have are with trainers (including Gary at the beginning). The channelers are easily bested by Dig from Dugtrio or Confusion from Kadabra, or anyone who got the Dig or Psychic TM.
13. When you get to the top of the tower and fight the level 30 Marowak that you can't identify, use the Pokedoll. Congratulations, you just cleared the tower without the Silph scope and having to navigate Team Rocket's floor puzzles.
14. After clearing the rockets on the top floor, fly back to Celadon with your new Pokeflute. You don't need to catch Snorlax here, killing it isn't a bad idea if you're impatient since you'll be able to try to catch the second one after you buy Ultra Balls.
15. Bike down to Fushia. It's possible to avoid any encounters with Bikers en route and there's no grass, so it's relatively uneventful. Head into the Safari Zone, catch what you want, loot the joint, and the Surf HM and the Gold Teeth that you swap for the Strength HM.

At this point, the world is your oyster. You have access to every major city in the game, barring Cinabar. The median level of trainers at this point is about level 30, meaning that anything you find/catch is viable. You could take something that you found in the Safari Zone (if you saved your Body Slam TM and have the patience to catch a Tauros, why not?) You can evolve that Eevee and make good use of it.

You have the following places to level up:

- Team Rocket Game Corner basement (optional since you don't need the Silph Scope unless you want a Gastly, you get some decent TMs and items down here)
- Silph Co (massive undertaking, you get a bunch of awesome items here and should be gaining massive amounts of experience)
- Gyms for Celadon, Saffron, and Fushia
- Saffron's fighting Dojo (get yourself a Hitmonlee ideally)
- The bikers on the route leading from Celadon to Fushia
- The massive swaths of trainers between Lavander and Fushia

Once you get Surf, you also have the opportunity to get Zapdos and Articuno. From my experience, getting there is a heck of a lot easier than actually making the capture. My usual strategies involve paralyzing the bird and reducing its accuracy six stages to keep myself alive, then chipping it away to a sliver of its HP using something horribly underleveled before chucking several dozen Ultra Balls. (Great Balls are actually more economical, they have 75% the effectiveness of Ultra Balls and have half the cost, but if you've got cash to burn Ultra Balls will probably save you time. If you're short on cash, stocking up on Pokeballs isn't a bad idea since they have 50% the capture rate of Ultra Balls and come at one quarter the cost.)

After that, it's Cinnibar Island. There's the mansion, with the all important Blizzard TM, as well as the Fire gym against which to use it (and laugh at the fact that RBY fire types don't resist Ice attacks). And following that, there's Viridian City, Victory Road, and the Elite Four.

Once you hit Fushia city, pretty much everything becomes game. Zapdos is certainly nice, but getting him requires investing a sizable chunk of time, and if you've got another Thunderbolt TM canidate that could reach the same level in the amount of time it would take to catch him, it might not be a bad idea. I think the main things that the tier list should focus on are Pokemon that are helpful in getting you to Fushia.

 

[Pocket]

Wild pokemon are only in the low twenties, and you are able to run away from them. If you were able to beat Morty, I see no reason why you should have trouble with any of the trainers. However, I agree that the time it takes to backtrack and go catch Lapras is not worth it being OU(This is all assuming you were able to correctly choose what day to set in the beginning of the game). If Lapras' tier placement was based solely on its negative qualities, it would be OU. However, once you catch Lapras, it's very good, for reasons already mentioned by other people and myself throughout the thread. Averaging the good and bad out, I would say lapras should be BL, as I proposed.

what do you mean by choosing what day to set for capturing Lapras? It always appears at Friday nights. If you mean timing the game right so that it is Friday evening when you are ready to catch Lapras, well, I do not find that much of a problem (I mean, how far can you possibly go in the interval of a week?). I just caught Lapras before entering Pryce's town, and I had plenty of opportunities to level it up with people next to or at the Lake of Rage and the TR before I even challenged Pryce. And then there's still the entire Goldenrod siege where plenty of leveling up can happen. Lapras had no problem owning them with Surf + BSlam. imo Lapras is easily OU; it's not hard to find, readily available, learns great STAB and other moves, easy to level up because of its awesome stats and attacks, and it just makes the game so much easier with Water / Ice offense. It's most likely that Lapras is attained even before encountering Red Gyarados or Jynx. There's really nothing like it. Other than that I really like what you said on your posts, especially Machoke and Graveler being OU and HootHoot, Zubat, and Paras sucking (although, Mekkah have already made those changes on page 2).

What Kikuichimonji said is interesting. If put it that way, I guess Nidoking is a good pokemon to use, because it is readily available and become powerful early on. Dugtrio is in the same line of vein, since it's a speedy pokemon with a powerful STAB move + Slash that is also accessible at the beginning without much trouble (not to mention it comes in real handy against Radio Tower's Ghost Trainers.

So pretty much Pokemon up till Vermillion City are good candidates, since after Rock Tunnel its pretty much an easy ride to Fuschia. I believe Bellsprout is another worthy candidate, because Growth and Vine Whip makes easy work of Misty (who I frankly feel is a toughie for a 2nd Gym Leader) and having Status helps in-game, too. Oddish is a bit inferior because it doesn't learn Razor Leaf and its slower (RLeaf really comes in handy especially against Lorelli), but it is also a pokemon to beat Misty with ease in Red. Although much of a pain in the ass to raise, getting a Gyarados or Kadabra at this stage (b4 fighting Misty to reap the most benefit) really makes beating the game a piece of cake. Psychic has no weakness and comes handy later on when fighting with Ghosts; Gyarados has high special and high attack to counter psychics and Lorelli's Pokemon, and at Dragon Rage at L. 25 is still very potent. Possibly want to save up on money to earn the Hyper Beam TM, though.

I also think these accessible monsters should prepare us to capture Zapdos + Articuno, because those two own the E4. Graveler is useful in this way because it makes capturing Zapdos a whole lot easier. It's harder to find a similar Pokemon to deal with Articuno. Possibly Kadabra, Gyarados, Hypno, Slowbro, Tentacruel, or Snorlax after Amnesia. By the way you play it however, Articuno may not be necessary, because you can go to Saffron within the first half portion of the game to get Lapras, and there are plenty of trainers, TRs at the Game Corner, and Gyms to boost its level up.

 

[Sticky Topic]

However, Nidoqueen is outclassed by Nidoking late game when it comes to Earthquake late-game, and both are outclassed by Snorlax late-game (who has naturally higher attack power and a STAB with more PP and the potential to paralyze).

Nidoking is not outclassed by Snorlax later on in the game. Snorlax does not have the speed to use OHKO moves if he can even use them, which makes him worse than Nidoking right there. Killing>Paralyzing, and OHKO moves do just that. A single X-Accuracy boosts an OHKO moves' accuracy to the standard 255/256, which makes Nidoking pretty obviously better than Snorlax.

 

[BlueCookies]

what do you mean by choosing what day to set for capturing Lapras? It always appears at Friday nights. If you mean timing the game right so that it is Friday evening when you are ready to catch Lapras, well, I do not find that much of a problem (I mean, how far can you possibly go in the interval of a week?).

When you start a new game, you select what day of the week it is. If you think that you will be able to catch Lapras the day after you start your new game, then make it Thursday. If you think you will be able to get to Lapras two days after the day you start, then make it Wednesday. If you are unsure, then use your best judgement, but be sure not to overshoot. It's better to undershoot. If you're going to be off by one day, Getting the Surf HM on Thursday is better than on Saturday.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

One thing I also wanted to note is that I believe that Venusaur is easily the best of the three starters. Besides the obvious early-game advantage against Brock and Misty (and even Surge, where his typing helps him defensively), he evolves into Venusaur four levels earlier than you get Charizard or Blastoise, pretty much guaranteeing that he'll be in his final stage by Rock Tunnel. He also has the best STAB, you can treat Razor Leaf like a more powerful Surf or Flamethrower that doesn't have the ability to crit. Razor Leaf also has significantly more PP than Surf or Flamethrower, which does matter for long crawls like Victory Road. Although he doesn't get ice attacks like Blastoise or Slash like Charizard, he does get Sleep Powder, which can allow you to use Swords Dance+Body Slam or Growth+Mega Drain. Venusaur can also make use of the Toxic+Leech Seed glitch (Leech Seeding a poisoned Pokemon results in healing all of the damage that Poison deals) which while not necessary the best strategy is certainly one that is fun to use.

If you mean timing the game right so that it is Friday evening when you are ready to catch Lapras, well, I do not find that much of a problem (I mean, how far can you possibly go in the interval of a week?)

It's probably worth mentioning that there are people who beat GSC in only one or two days. However, in Gold and Silver (not Crystal) time is irrelevant as you can use Down+B+Select on the title screen to skip through time.

I believe Bellsprout is another worthy candidate, because Growth and Vine Whip makes easy work of Misty (who I frankly feel is a toughie for a 2nd Gym Leader) and having Status helps in-game, too.

Although Bellsprout is super against Misty (and probably the best way to go if you picked Charmander), I believe that it is actually possible to postpone Misty until you need to use Cut to get from Cerulean to Rock Tunnel. (If beating Gary or getting the SS Ticket isn't the trigger for allowing you to get out of Cerulean the first time, then perhaps facing Misty is, meaning that losing against her would allow you to advance.) This means that you could do the SS Anne and Lt. Surge's gym before facing Misty, so if you picked Squirtle, you should easily have a Wartortle with Bite (level 24) by that time. But if you picked Charmander, then Bellsprout is probably the way to go. If you're playing Red, Charmeleon learns Slash at level 33, although if you're actually planning to use it you may as well just use a few rare candies to get yourself a Charizard.

I also think these accessible monsters should prepare us to capture Zapdos + Articuno, because those two own the E4. Graveler is useful in this way because it makes capturing Zapdos a whole lot easier. It's harder to find a similar Pokemon to deal with Articuno. Possibly Kadabra, Gyarados, Hypno, Slowbro, Tentacruel, or Snorlax after Amnesia. By the way you play it however, Articuno may not be necessary, because you can go to Saffron within the first half portion of the game to get Lapras, and there are plenty of trainers, TRs at the Game Corner, and Gyms to boost its level up.

If Lapras gets Thunderbolt, then it's probably better than Articuno. However, if Lapras is limited to water and ice moves, the two are about tied for usefulness. Lapras gets a STAB Surf and/or Hydro Pump while Articuno only gets the pitiful Bubblebeam (if it wasn't spent on something like Nidoking/queen or Wartortle early on), but Articuno learns Blizzard without a TM and has higher special. Articuno also learns Fly (why not, it's not like it has anything better in its movepool) which allows you to free up a slot that would otherwise be used for a Pidgey or Spearow, which could be an issue if you are using a large party. As for catching Articuno, heading into Seafoam with only 5 Pokemon in your Party so that you can catch a water/ice hybrid on the way to Articuno (use potions to heal damage that you dealt while catching it) which should certainly help. (Peck shouldn't be too much of a problem, you can use an X-defend and potions if necessary.) Alternatively, pretty much any water (or ice) type you've been using up to that point will work, Blastoise for sure if you're using him, Gyarados less so because he doesn't resist Ice Beam.

Are we going to consider Starmie? It's slightly less convenient than Lapras to obtain (he requires a detour to Seafoam where you might as well pick up Articuno). And Lapras does have better stats, arguably (Starmie wins in speed and also special by a tiny margin, but Lapras has better defenses). However, Starmie learns Recover and also gets a STAB Psychic.

Nidoking is not outclassed by Snorlax later on in the game. Snorlax does not have the speed to use OHKO moves if he can even use them, which makes him worse than Nidoking right there. Killing>Paralyzing, and OHKO moves do just that. A single X-Accuracy boosts an OHKO moves' accuracy to the standard 255/256, which makes Nidoking pretty obviously better than Snorlax.

For the record, Nidoqueen is better than Nidoking when it comes to OHKO moves, given her higher speed. And Snorlax does learn Fissure (not that you'd want to use it on him). Also keep in mind that this is not necessarily everyone is trying to beat the game in under two and a half hours; Nidoking may not be so overleveled that he can outspeed the opposition. Also keep in mind that in situations where both Nidoking and Snorlax would be outsped, Snorlax is actually better because he can paralyze using Body Slam so that he actually has a chance to OHKO (unless you wanted to waste one of Nidoking's moveslots on Thunder Wave). (Not that this is at all practical; a single Body Slam is usually enough to knock people into Hyper Beam range anyway.) Oh yeah, about that, Snorlax learns Hyper Beam naturally at level 56, and when he's at that level it is for all intents and purposes a Horn Drill. (If he needs a buff, it's in the form of X-attack, not X-accuracy.)

Although placing both Horn Drill and Fissure on the same Pokemon to make use of Elixer is certainly a nice thing, you pick up enough Ethers throughout the game that you shouldn't be worrying about PP for the Elite Four; it's not like you'd run out of PP restoring items if you didn't give Fissure to Nidoking. I'd also argue that using PP ups on OHKO moves to make maximum use of Max Elixer is a waste; PP ups are better spent on moves like Body Slam and Surf as soon as you get them. (Venasaur would probably LOVE to get five extra Razor Leafs between Pokemon Center visits.)

Blastoise makes a fine candidate for the Fissure TM since he'll have an easier time against Lorelei than Nidoking in terms of surviving long enough for you to apply the X-accuracy and as many X-speeds as necessary. This also goes for Charizard as well to a lesser extent (Charizard's Defense and Special are lower than Blastoise's, and it has worse typing.)

 

[Sticky Topic]

For the record, Nidoqueen is better than Nidoking when it comes to OHKO moves, given her higher speed. And Snorlax does learn Fissure (not that you'd want to use it on him). Also keep in mind that this is not necessarily everyone is trying to beat the game in under two and a half hours; Nidoking may not be so overleveled that he can outspeed the opposition. Also keep in mind that in situations where both Nidoking and Snorlax would be outsped, Snorlax is actually better because he can paralyze using Body Slam so that he actually has a chance to OHKO (unless you wanted to waste one of Nidoking's moveslots on Thunder Wave). (Not that this is at all practical; a single Body Slam is usually enough to knock people into Hyper Beam range anyway.) Oh yeah, about that, Snorlax learns Hyper Beam naturally at level 56, and when he's at that level it is for all intents and purposes a Horn Drill. (If he needs a buff, it's in the form of X-attack, not X-accuracy.)

Nidoqueen doesn't have the attack power that Nidoking has, and the attack power actually matters whereas the speed gain really doesn't matter. The gym leader speed boost lets Nidoking outspeed a lot of things reliably anyway, and besides, if he isn't fast enough an X-Speed works fine anyway. Snorlax is too slow, and he does not get both Fissure and Horn Drill like Nidoking does. Also, if you are going to spend 185770 exp on Snorlax to level it up to 56 in the first place, that will give Nidoking enough to get to level 57 (their respective exp formulas), well fast enough to use the OHKO moves properly (and that is not counting that Nidoking should get more exp since it comes earlier). Besides, Hyper Beam will usually go second with Snorlax, so he is going to take hits where as Nidoking only needs to take one.

I'd also argue that using PP ups on OHKO moves to make maximum use of Max Elixer is a waste; PP ups are better spent on moves like Body Slam and Surf as soon as you get them. (Venasaur would probably LOVE to get five extra Razor Leafs between Pokemon Center visits.)

Even assuming you are using a single Pokemon, PP isn't an issue at all before the Elite Four, so PP restoring items are useless before then.

Blastoise makes a fine candidate for the Fissure TM since he'll have an easier time against Lorelei than Nidoking in terms of surviving long enough for you to apply the X-accuracy and as many X-speeds as necessary. This also goes for Charizard as well to a lesser extent (Charizard's Defense and Special are lower than Blastoise's, and it has worse typing.)

This is why I rated them higher than Nidoran in my tier list, among other reasons. Note that Blastoise has the same special as Charizard.

When you start a new game, you select what day of the week it is. If you think that you will be able to catch Lapras the day after you start your new game, then make it Thursday. If you think you will be able to get to Lapras two days after the day you start, then make it Wednesday. If you are unsure, then use your best judgement, but be sure not to overshoot. It's better to undershoot. If you're going to be off by one day, Getting the Surf HM on Thursday is better than on Saturday.

Wouldn't it be far easier (and more effective) to just change the day of the week? It is easily possible if you know how.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Even assuming you are using a single Pokemon, PP isn't an issue at all before the Elite Four, so PP restoring items are useless before then.

That was kind of my point. You were talking about using Elixirs with Horn Drill/Fissure Nidoking, I was saying that rationing items during the Elite Four isn't important because you should have an entire game's worth of PP restoring items at that point. So the Fissure TM would be better spent on something that doesn't learn Horn Drill.

Wouldn't it be far easier (and more effective) to just change the day of the week? It is easily possible if you know how.

I don't think that this is possible in Crystal.

 

[Bran]

I love this topic a bunch, and I am in a nostalgia summer! I've been playing the older editions of pokemon, while taking a huge break from Diamond/Pearl. I am currently playing Silver, and I can have some input on an in-game tier for that game, especially since I have played gold/silver about 10 different times in my life, and is my favorite generation of the franchise.

"OU" (awesome)
- Cyndaquil
- Totodile
- Chikorita
- Rattata
- Ho-oh (Gold)
- Lugia (Silver)
- Spearow
- Red Gyarados
- Paras
- Pidgey
- Hoothoot
- Sudowoodo
- Zubat

From what you listed, I have to disagree on a few of these.

1. I agree that the starters should be listed. Although Chikorita is the worst of the three, a very early razor leaf, reflect, the purchasable TM headbutt, and synthesis makes it a pretty good option until late in the game, which by then, it can use both light screen and reflect to allow switches in key gym and elite four battles.
2. I don't think Zubat should be up there. You do get it early, but in G/S, it doesn't learn a great movepool, and Bite is a special attack, which is its best attack until you learn wing attack on level 27 (or 30 as a Golbat), and I would much rather have Scyther on my team that also learns it at level 30.
3. HootHoot is too weak offensively to do damage, and Pidgey and Spearow are much better.
4. Paras may have spore, but it will be outsped a ton of times and killed in one-two hits with its multiple weaknesses.

"BL" (okay)
- Geodude
- Magikarp
- Caterpie
- Weedle
- Spinarak
- Ledyba
- Abra
- Bellsprout
- Onix
- Wooper
- Mareep
- Machop

1. Caterpie is not bad, since butterfree is usuable for most of the game, but Beedrill is horribly weak and shouldn't be used.
2. Ledyba has stats similar to HootHoot, and doesn't learn an offensive move from level 15 until level 42, which is comet punch and swift, respecitvely.
3. Spinarak is also bad. Starts with poison sting, then learns constrict (I'm shaking!!!!), then at lv. 17, Night Shade, which is great; but it learn leech life and fury swipes as next two moves, and doesn't learn a decent move until Screech at level 53!!
4. Abra should be OU; buy one-two TM punches for Abra, level it up quickly (which is easy to do), and once it evolves, you got a member for the rest of the game!
5. Geodude, hands down, should be OU!!! Can catch at the beginning of the game to tank all the normal/bug types. Then it learns Rock Throw, Magnetude (excellent in-game move), and Self-Destrict all before evolving. After evolving, it learns Rollout (good in-game, especially if you elect to keep defense curl on your move list to further power-up rollout), an up-graded magnitute with earthquake, and an upgraded self-destruct with explosion!! Sure, it gets killed by most sp. attackers, but that's not his role! Block physical attacks and retaliate with great moves!
6. Trade for the Machop at Goldenrod City, teach it one elemental punch, and you are also set here. Since it's traded, it levels up insanely fast, and it's the only accessable pokemon that learns Cross Chop before the elite four.
7. Mareep is the only usuable electric until Magemite, and once it evolves to Flaffy, you can be impatient about learning thunderpunch at level 30 and teach it at goldenrod. It learns Fire Punch, and has a beast of a special attack on its final evolution. Plus, you nab him at the same route as Wooper! Useful from start to finish!

"UU" (awful)
- Gligar
- Dratini
- Swinub
- Sneasel
- Phanpy
- Teddiursa
- Jynx
- Girafarig
- Lickitung
- Bulbasaur
- Charmander
- Squirtle
- Suicune
- Raikou
- Entei

On these, I only see one I do not like. Jynx could be BL. You get her at level 22 when most of your party is at the low 30's, but it's the best pokemon to have with a STAB'ed Ice Punch. Good speed, and it starts with it's signature sleeping move Lovely Kiss, and learns Ice Punch in just a couple levels after catching! It would take a couple levels to catch up, but almost sweeping Lance by herself is such an overwelming achievement to consider using. Also, you could make a case for Suicune in BL, because of it's excellent stats. In addition, you teach it surf, and if you don't have a water type on your team, it can fit right-in.



Now here is some in-depth analysis on some pokemon that aren't listed:

Tauros: OU

Each time I play Silver, I make one rule: I must have Tauros ASAP!! You catch it on route 38 beside Eurotke City, which is around badge 4. It doesn't learn great moves, but once you get the Strength HM (which is in the next city right after route 38 and 39), it has amazing powerful base stats to just plow all opponents!
Do the math: 100 base attack+80 power move (strength)+STAB bonus at level 13 to other level 13 pokemon= Pain!!
In addition, teach it surf, and it will beat all the Geodudes/Gravelers that try to wall it. Those two moves combined with its amazing sweeping stats just allows it to be in your party for the whole game. Comes a little late at a lower level, but its base stats makes-up for the level difference and can quickly catch-up.


Miltank: OU

Same route as Tauros. Has same speed and more defense, but the attack decrease is fairly significant. You can do the same with her as I do with Tauros: Strength and Surf with similar results. However, what makes her good is that it does learn rollout (and defense curl if you are willing for that boost), and just a few levels after catching it, it learns Milk Drink, her recovery move. Comes a little late at a lower level, but its base stats makes-up for the level difference and can quickly catch-up.


Gastly: BL

This one was tough to decide. Gastly is caught very early, immune to all the normal attacks early on, and has the handy hypnosis and learns mean look early for catching the pokemon that like to run, and its evolutions have the speed to allow this to happen. However, it starts with Lick, learns Spite, and doesn't learn a decent move until Night Shade at level 21. After it evolves, it learns confuse ray at level 31, but it is just insanely difficult to use a pokemon with only one decent move for 2/3 of the main game that can only sleep and run. However, despite all that, the weakness early makes him amazing at the end. Gastly is BL, because he levels-up fast, does aid in catching those runners (whooper, abra to name a few), and if you get to trade the Haunter to evolve to a Gengar, you can slap any combination of the three elemental punches and be set for the remainder of the game with Hypnosis, two elemental punches, and confuse ray/dream eater/night shade/3rd elemental punch.


Lapras: BL

A little luck in the day of the week is involved to get him, and you get him about 4-5 levels below the rest of your team. However, it is possibly the only pokemon that learns Ice Beam before the elite four. It has excellent stats, starts with Body Slam and should start with Surf, quickly learns Confuse Ray, forces switches with Perish Song, then learns Ice Beam at level 36. If you nab him, he could possibly be on your team ASAP! The only reason he's not OU is to the fact that, depends on the point of the time of the game when you can get him, he could be too low-leveled to just slap on the team and would eat-up a couple hours to catch-up. Plus, if you chose Feraligator or use a Quagsire, it would be difficult finding a spot to use him.


Slowpoke: BL

You get him fairly early at around level 7. Starts with Curse, which is one of G/S's best moves. Learns water gun, then confusion, then you can teach Surf for great damage while blocking the physical attackers very well. Problem is that it doesn't evolve until level 37, which is around the time you start heading towards victory road. You can get the king's rock, but not until the mid-20's in levels, and must have a friend to get Slowking. Either way, you are waiting a long time for an evolution, and by that time, another water may outclass him for a spot on your team. He's BL, because he is an excellent option from the moment you get him until badge 5, and beyond if you got the patience.


Scyther: UU

I love him, and I typically wait until a bug-catching day comes to nab him. Excellent stats from the point you get until most of the game. Problem is that he has hardly any useful resistances, and his move-pool isn't good at all. Starts with Quick attack, and doesn't learn a good move until Wing Attack at level 30. Learns Slash at 36, but Headbutt can be taught at moment of catching him at level 13 and has the same power with chance of flinch. Swords Dance is super nice at 42, but it's just the fact that the only usuable options with it are the previously mentioned headbutt and wing attack. Plus you get the Metal Coat way too late to make Scizor usuable. So he's just SOL.



Magmar: BL

Again, this one was tough, but again, it's thanks to the TM's at Goldenrod that makes him usuable from start to finish. It starts with a STAB Fire Punch, and can learn Thunder Punch. Has great sp. attack and speed to take down most pokemon, and an above-average attack to teach it Strength. It learns Sunny Day at level 33 to further fight against waters and further kill others weak to fire, and at level 41, near the point of reaching the elite four, it learns Flamethrower. If you didn't go with Cyndaquil as your starter, he fills the role of a Fire type quite nicely! He is not OU because he loses value at the last two Gyms, and in Gold, he will automatically be replaced by Ho-oh once he is caught.



All Eevee Evolutions: UU

You obtain Eevee after entering Eruteke city and going back to Goldenrod at level 20, which fits right in with the party at that time. However, you do not get the evolution stone until half-way in Kanto at Bill's house, so using the first three evolutions are out of the question. Which leaves the two other ones; espeon and umbreon. At level 20, you miss their key early-game STAB move from level 17, so extra time would have to be used to breed one if you wish to have that move. In addition, trying to max-out a pokemon's happiness in-game with limited funds for power-up items is a very difficult feat that requires multiple days to achieve by re-battling old trainers and giving it haircuts. Espeon is the best one, because learning Bite at level 30 as an Eevee and Psybeam at level 36 gives it two excellent moves, but at that point, your Kadabra/Alakazam already has Psybeam (learns at level 21) and is ready to learn Psychic at level 37.



Sentret: UU

You nab him super early in the game, and it's supposed to be similar to rattata. It evolves early at level 15, which is quite nice, but even with its evolution, many pokemon outclass it very early. Can learn the Headbutt and Punches TM's, but many other pokemon take advantage of those options much better, and Raticate has better stats with Hyper Fang. Plus, it learns fury swipes at level 17-18, and Slam ten levels later, which Strength outclasses that move by that point of the game. It may be cute and accessable early, but it's not worth using at any point of the game.


Hoppip: UU

Another early catch in the game. However, it behaves like a Magikarp; useless until it goes-up in levels. The only, and repeat, ONLY attack it learns is Mega Drain at level 30 (44 as a Jumpluff). You would have to be super patient to be able to use him effectively, so that already deams it an in-game UU. However, between levels 15-22, it becomes the shiny stalling star that it is in the G/S generation by learning Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, and Leech Seed, and it can learn the Headbutt TM as an attack option. If you are patient and like to stall others in-game, go with him. If not, avoid him, and use your Bellsprout you caught earlier in the game for your grass type.



Skarmory: UU

Never thought for any reason that I would say Skarmory is UU, but it's more that reasonable when it comes to the in-game tears in Gold/Silver. Similar to Gligar, Phanphy, and Dratini, you get it near that last badge in Johto at much lower levels than the rest of the team. It is one of the best pokemon in the whole game that will tank almost anything, but it has absolutely no moves to back it up, especially since Drill Peck and Whirlwind are only breeding moves. Starts with Peck and Swift, and it learns Fury Attack at level 37 and steel wing at 49, which is towards the end of the whole game. Add in the slow experience, and he becomes a horrible option on your team, in-game.


More will come as I finish playing my Silver game by next week.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

(GSC) Espeon is a really excellent Pokemon if you hold off on evolving Eevee until level 30 when he learns Bite. (He can survive on STAB Headbutt or Return, both of which he learns by replaceable TMs.) He learns Psybeam at level 36, and with the special Bite and STAB Psybeam, he can wreak havoc on most everything you encounter for the rest of the game. He's exceedingly useful against the Elite Four. Bite is super effective against everything Will has and he resists Psychic, and he's probably the least painful way to deal with Will short of an actual Dark type. Psybeam takes out 4/5 of Koga's team, the only Pokemon that Espeon can't take out easily is Foretress. Psybeam and an obvious advantage against Bruno, and unlike Jynx, Espeon actually resists fighting attacks in the event that Psybeam is not an OHKO on Machamp. Espeon can make sort work of 3/5 of the Elite Four and Bite/Psybeam is exceedingly useful when getting there.

The one thing I'm not sure of on Espeon is how hard it is to get Eevee to evolve. I'm pretty sure that you should have the cash to buy enough Calcium from Goldenrod to evolve him by the time he hits level 30, though.

 

[Bran]

(GSC) Espeon is a really excellent Pokemon if you hold off on evolving Eevee until level 30 when he learns Bite. (He can survive on STAB Headbutt or Return, both of which he learns by replaceable TMs.) He learns Psybeam at level 36, and with the special Bite and STAB Psybeam, he can wreak havoc on most everything you encounter for the rest of the game. He's exceedingly useful against the Elite Four. Bite is super effective against everything Will has and he resists Psychic, and he's probably the least painful way to deal with Will short of an actual Dark type. Psybeam takes out 4/5 of Koga's team, the only Pokemon that Espeon can't take out easily is Foretress. Psybeam and an obvious advantage against Bruno, and unlike Jynx, Espeon actually resists fighting attacks in the event that Psybeam is not an OHKO on Machamp. Espeon can make sort work of 3/5 of the Elite Four and Bite/Psybeam is exceedingly useful when getting there.

The one thing I'm not sure of on Espeon is how hard it is to get Eevee to evolve. I'm pretty sure that you should have the cash to buy enough Calcium from Goldenrod to evolve him by the time he hits level 30, though.

Understood, but that means at around the point you get eevee, you have other options for new team members like tauros and miltank. While playing the game, if you want Eevee to evolve fast, you would have to re-battle trainers for money, and wait several days to give it haircuts to have a chance to evolve Eevee to Espeon at level 30; which at that point in the game, you are battling the rockets at the Radio Tower or around gym 7.

It's hard putting forth the huge amount of effort needed to evolve him and continue playing the game while having Eevee on your team full of evolved pokemon, much more powerful normal types like Tauros, and there's the option of Kadabra, which learns Psybeam at level 21!! That's why I would put Espeon at UU.

Vaporeon can be used right away with Surf, it's strongest move; doesn't need to be an Eevee to learn bite, and it learns Aurora beam at level 36 to give it type coverage (which is handy, since it can't learn ice punch and there's no access to ice beam on that game.) This is why I say he's the only usable evolution of Eevee in-game.

 

[Yaridovich]

Vaporeon can be used right away with Surf, it's strongest move; doesn't need to be an Eevee to learn bite, and it learns Aurora beam at level 36 to give it type coverage (which is handy, since it can't learn ice punch and there's no access to ice beam on that game.) This is why I say he's the only usable evolution of Eevee in-game.

Except that you don't get any of the evolution stones until you're roughly halfway through Kanto.

 

[Bran]

Except that you don't get any of the evolution stones until you're roughly halfway through Kanto.

At the time you posted this, I was at the point on Silver where you had to fight the trainers to win the Nugget to get to Bill's house. I played with an Vaporeon before in-game, but I must of got the water stone from someone else. I was in the assumption that you could buy them in Goldenrod on the 3rd or 4th floor (which I didn't even go in during my current game). Thanks for that correction.


*edit* Edited my original post.

 

[Evil Hamster]

You can get the stones via mystery gift and tradeback, iirc. I got a water stone from tradeback around Ecruteak, and I would agree that Vaporeon tears absolutely everything up with Surf throughout the game. You don't need another move.

I would probably say Miltank is BL; you get Tauros at basically the same time and whilst Miltank's extra defense is nice, for the most part you'll want Tauros instead. Having both on your team is kind of redundant as type coverage goes, so whilst Miltank is kinda cool, I'd personally take Tauros' extra speed and attack over it everytime.

 

[Yaridovich]

Its ok if Miltank is outclassed by Tauros, that alone doesn't warrant bumping her down to BL. "X>Y, therefore Y isn't top tier" isn't true, it means "X>Y", nothing else. If Miltank were to be outclassed by Tauros and still is good enough then she goes there,this isn't really competitive tiering. Personally, I'd say that Miltank's better defensive stats as well as an early-on instant recovery move makes it different enough from Tauros.

As for the rest of your post, I would point to what Mekkah said just a page back, (even for Mystery Gift because there is another game involved, which means trading could also be possible):

If you trade, assuming you actually can, then you'd have to count everything you did in the other game, so I don't think that really helps. The most objective way to factor it in is to make two tier lists for each game: one where you assume you have access to a link cable/other game, and one where you don't.

But other games also allow you to trade your starter away, train him against Elite Four with EXP share or something, trade back and then kill (he will still obey because the ID No. stays the same). So I don't really hold those tiers in high regard.

Fact is, in GSC on your own, you only get one Leaf Stone and it's at like 3/4 of the quest (Kanto isn't even half of the game taking quests and difficulty into account...I'd say 3/4 is even being generous), so stone evolvers just suck.

But yes, I agree that Vaporeon's Surf is awesome in-game :)

 

[Darkflagrance]

Perhaps you got the water stone from the cellphone trainer who gives you one? I think you can get the elemental stones in Crystal earlier in that manner.

 

[Yuri]

In Crystal you get some stones from trainers that call you for a re-match.

Leaf Stone: Picknicker in between the grass fieds just before Goldenrod.
Water Stone: Fisherman near Mt. Mortar's Mahogany exit.
Fire Stone: Schoolboy at the mid right portion of National park (not 100% sure about this one).
Thunder Stone: Lass at upper left section of the grass fields between Ecruteak and Jasmine.

Moon Stone: at Mt Moon, only at Mondays night and you must have Rock Smash.
Sun Stone: you must win the Bug Catching Contest held in the National Park at uhh Wednesdays and Saturdays? Pinsir, Scyther, level 14+ Beedrill or Butterfree are 99% sure to win.

 

[HD]

(Life support) OK I have a D/P list:
OU
Chimchar
Turtwig
Starly
Shinx
Buizel
Shellos W
Bidoof
Palkia/Dialga
Azelf

BL
Abra
Gastly
Machop
Geodude
Misdreavous
Murkrow
Croagunk
Honey Tree Poke
Uxie

UU
Everything else

OU reasons: Chimchar and Turtwig are there because there they have great movepools and power. No Piplup because of it's meh stats and until Lvl 24 no good move. Starly and Shinx because the're the first few pokemon you find and have good movepools and stats. Buizel because of it's massive Att and Spe. Shellos W because you get/see it before the other version. Bidoof is the best HM slave ever.

BL reasons: Gastly and Abra and Machop because you have to trade them to get to there final forms. If you didn't have to trade them they be up their in OU. Misdreavous and Murkrow because you have to get them at night and the're very rare. Plus you need the only Dusk Stone you have to evolve them unless you have a high levelled Pick Up mon. Croagunk because it's very rare in the Marsh. Honey Tree Poke because the're rare and most of them aren't good except Aipom, Munchlax and Combee (F).

 

[DDRMaster]

@ Houndoomdude Palkia and Dialga should be OU. You're forced to fight them and they're at a high level. Azelf should be OU, Uxie should be BL, and Mesprit should be UU because it's a pain to catch.

Budew should be BL because it takes down the first gym easily and Roselia learns Petal Dance, but getting the Shiny Stone is a pain. Shellos just seems outclassed by Buizel as a Water Pokemon and Geodude and Turtwig as a Ground Pokemon.

Edit: In GSC, Quagsire can get Ice Punch for Clair and Lance which is why I usually get it. When I play through Saphire I always beat the Elite Four with only Kyogre. Mudkip is necessary in Emerald for the fourth gym. In LG Butterfree was effective at taking down Agatha's Gengars.

 

[Kagster123]

I think Geodude should be BL atleast. It gives a nice Ground/rock type and you get it the same way and as early as Abra and Machop.

 

[Darkflagrance]

For Houndoomdude's tiers, Ponyta should be added to at OU for being the only fire-type Turtwig and Piplup starters can get until the National Dex.

Also, even though Haunter and Kadabra can't reach their final forms without trading, they're still pretty good in their second stage. Additionally, because you can easily [semi] ev train for special attack if you should want to in the Old Chateau, both Haunter and Kadabra are OU in my opinion.