Metagame Inheritance

EDIT2:
I just ran into a "locked player". Second time.
What the fuck? Against these guys we aren't able to see what they're inheriting from, which is the ultimate bullshit.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-537075614

Is this some kind of bug? this need to be fixed asap since some will probably abuse this
Yeah, that's a bug. For some reason, locked players do not have their inheriting tags show up. Nobody knows why though.
 
Nobody knows why though.
The current Inheritance code uses nicknames to pass the Donor name from the team validator to the battle; the way this works is, in the validator, the Donor name is added to the nickname (example: Kartana inheriting from dhelmise will have its nickname changed from 'Kartana' to 'Kartana (Dhelmise)'). Then on the beginning of the battle, this is removed, making the Pokémon retain their nickname, and the Donor name is added to display.
The problem with locked players is that PS' code removes any nicknames that locked players give to their Pokémon, and the name of the Donor that we add to the nickname is included in this. So, when the battle begins, the Donor name cannot be found in the nickname, hence it isn't displayed.
 
ExLight said:
1. Shell Smash users usually can be stopped before they use it....

2.Kartana can be outspeed and revenge killed easily. Also, many walls can take hits from its mostly predicable and low coverage without much problem.

3.Hoopa-U sure hits hard, but its mediocre speed and lame bulky makes it kinda easy to counter. Just put something faster, or a priority and boom since stalling it won't really work most of the time.
1. Uh you actually set up on the right mons aka set up fodders. You dont set up on a mon that will outright ko you. Furthwrmore, good teams provide good set up opportunities for this mons like having good synergy, parting shot/memento support, weakening opposing teams etc. Lots lots more. Idk about you but thwre are a lot of opportunities to set up shell smash, especially if you have a good bulk. Other frailer smashwrs get wnough opportunies if you do the right plays. Just to share something, i tried to run a team with like 3 smashers with a rocker, a trapper, and a cleaner and its ao easy to get wins.


2. Can you give examples of "many" kartana "walls"? Pretty sure there are like an abyssmal number of mons taking powerful hits which also comes from 181 atk, even ou's premiere physical walls like buzzwole etc. Only stuff that i could think of that "walls" kartana is unaware celesteela, which loae to band anchor shots, and levitate utility doublade beimg the most reliable one i could think of and both od these just loses to steel trappers that then frees kartana. Scarf mitigates the weakness against faster pokemon. Its not also revenged killed easily, since grass typing is a nice defensive typing and 109 or so defense stat gives slower or even fast but not so hard hitting physical attackers have a hard time beating kartana, although yes it has an abyssmal spd, which is not much of a downside togwther with its positive traits.

3. I mean uh offense literally just is obliterated by this mon as well as im sure you have no solid switchins to this. Not sure but this thing was banned in oras ou because of its wallbreaking capabilities making stall and bulkier archetypes an inferior playstyle, making the metagame be more offensive, so i guess it was actually "centralizing"? I know sm is different from oras, but thw presemce of hoopa in the current mwtagmae does the same back in oras. Also, stuff like scarf,webs and the rare tr for hoopa's case solve speed problems. And oh yeah it has good special bulk but a little soft on the defwnse side, but what more could you ask to a mon with such high calibre?

These stuff arent pwrfect but these things offer just too much their flaws get overshadowed.

Sorry foe bad typos ill try to get on comp next time.
 
while you guys focusing in shell smash, kartana, and hoopa-u, i like to bring Xurkitree. he hits hard enough and after +2 you get your chansey 2hkoed (A-RaichuxXurks)

+2 252+ SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 306-361 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO

it have ridiculuosly fast under Electric Terrain, because Surge Surfer. i think only Miltankx(water ground) stop this.

not to mention DrifblimxXurkitree which give some utility in tricking Flame Orb.

i mean, there are so many hard hitters in this meta alone. and you can't make 1 dedicated counters to 1 mons. for example, if you already have a counter to say, a kartana, then that kartana is kecleonxkartana, then your celes got bopped by random fire punch isn't?

for kartana, i usually use doublade, which is fantastic counter to it (beware for tricked by rachixkartana). and i actually use BruxishxHoopa-U, which usually got stopped hard with bulky dark types like mandibuzz / umbreon.

i dunno what i'm pointing about but stall isn't exactly invalidated, just people focus so much on HO. i'm myself playing balance and can get top ladder (actually 3 alts on ladder).

i'm not defending or against kartana, hoopa, shell smash, but there are too many offensive threats in here.
Xurkitree, KekleonxMaro, TorkoalTran, swiftswim/sheerforce Keldeo, MegaGross, MegaChomp (it hits very hard with tyranitar as donor, almost can't be walled with Zyg as a donor), MegaZam, even VictinixZardx.

that's my opinion on playing this metagame.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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Suspect Test

Hoopa-U and Kartana are being suspected due to their overwhelming offensive presence. The test will last one week and the requirements are 1700 Glicko. There will not be a new ladder and you do not need to make a fresh alt. Post proof of reqs and your votes here.
 
Suspect Test

Hoopa-U and Kartana are being suspected due to their overwhelming offensive presence. The test will last one week and the requirements are 1700 Glicko. There will not be a new ladder and you do not need to make a fresh alt. Post proof of reqs and your votes here.
is that means if i already have the requirements now i can vote directly?



claiming as Aku Mau Ngetroll, Ngetroll, and CLC4 Enak Ngetroll
i votes later to think a reason for voting about kartana and hoopa-u
 
Can you give examples of "many" kartana "walls"? Pretty sure there are like an abyssmal number of mons taking powerful hits which also comes from 181 atk, even ou's premiere physical walls like buzzwole etc. Only stuff that i could think of that "walls" kartana is unaware celesteela, which loae to band anchor shots, and levitate utility doublade beimg the most reliable one i could think of and both od these just loses to steel trappers that then frees kartana. Scarf mitigates the weakness against faster pokemon. Its not also revenged killed easily, since grass typing is a nice defensive typing and 109 or so defense stat gives slower or even fast but not so hard hitting physical attackers have a hard time beating kartana, although yes it has an abyssmal spd, which is not much of a downside togwther with its positive traits.
Giving it scarf will make it even easier to wall off. And since most of it's sets are choiced, it's really easy to predict what the opponent is going to use and switch into a appropriate wall, just play the mind game correctly.

And Levitate Doublade? Why would someone use it if EQ usually doesn't hit it as hard as Wood Hammer/Anchor Shot? The only real threatning ground move in this tier is Thousand Arrows, and Levitate does no shit to it.

You want some walls for Kartana? sure
Inheriting from Bulu, Adamant and Band for MAX damage.
None of the sets below are Fur Coat/Fluffly/Multiscale. But you can prolly image how silly the damage would be if they were.

Suicune
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 79-93 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Skarmory
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Grassy Terrain: 88-104 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 19.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-81 (20.6 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Celesteela
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela in Grassy Terrain: 109-129 (27.3 - 32.4%) -- 70.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 85-101 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Doublade
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 44-52 (13.6 - 16.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 112-132 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 65.4% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 84-100 (26 - 31%) -- 8.6% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Heatran
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 148-174 (38.3 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery <--- get ready to get Shell smash'd if you're fool enough to bait this

Ferrothorn
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Grassy Terrain: 92-109 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Grassy Terrain: 69-82 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Registeel
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel in Grassy Terrain: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 66-78 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel in Grassy Terrain: 124-148 (34 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Zapdos
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 249-293 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 97-114 (25.2 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Swampert
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 68% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert in Grassy Terrain: 126-149 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Scizor
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor in Grassy Terrain: 155-183 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 121-143 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 79.3% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor in Grassy Terrain: 116-137 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.9% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

*bonus*
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle in Grassy Terrain: 233-274 (84.1 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle: 182-214 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Even Salazzle can enter it and hurt someone HAHAHAHA


Pretty much every physical wall that resists grass or steel can enter in it after predicting correctly and kill it with Foul Play/Fire move, or even scout via Parting Shot/Volt Switch/U-turn into a setupper or anything else it needs. Since Steel trappers and HO are becoming more common, these switching moves are stupidly good in stall teams, which often rely on steel types.

Intimidate, Regenerator, Fur Coat, Toxic Heal are some of the abilities used in these kind of walls. Not to say that some others mons can burn or throw hazards in Kartana switchs-ins, which ends up being a huge advantage.

If you are afraid of Superpower, just get a ghost type, a setupper that resists fighting moves (Thundurus, Gyarados, Pheromosa, Koko, StoredCresselia), or a revenge killer like a steel trapper/anything faster than Kartana.
 
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Suicune
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 79-93 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Skarmory
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Grassy Terrain: 88-104 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 19.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-81 (20.6 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Celesteela
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela in Grassy Terrain: 109-129 (27.3 - 32.4%) -- 70.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 85-101 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Doublade
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 44-52 (13.6 - 16.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 112-132 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 65.4% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 84-100 (26 - 31%) -- 8.6% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Heatran
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 148-174 (38.3 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery <--- get ready to get Shell smash'd if you're fool enough to bait this

Ferrothorn
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Grassy Terrain: 92-109 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Grassy Terrain: 69-82 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Registeel
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel in Grassy Terrain: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 66-78 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel in Grassy Terrain: 124-148 (34 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Zapdos
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 249-293 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 97-114 (25.2 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Swampert
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 68% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert in Grassy Terrain: 126-149 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Scizor
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor in Grassy Terrain: 155-183 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 121-143 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 79.3% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor in Grassy Terrain: 116-137 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.9% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

*bonus*
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle in Grassy Terrain: 233-274 (84.1 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle: 182-214 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Even Salazzle can enter it and hurt someone HAHAHAHA
I don't play Inheritance but this is easily the most ridiculous set of calculations I've seen. You chose to use moves that are either resisted or weakened by Grassy Terrain. If you want to argue, argue with some actual calculations (Tapu Bulu learns Superpower, a better move against Ferrothorn. Tapu Bulu also learns Stone Edge, a better move against Zapdos.)

Sorry about if this post is harsh, but come on dude, you can include better calculations :/
 
.
I don't play Inheritance but this is easily the most ridiculous set of calculations I've seen. You chose to use moves that are either resisted or weakened by Grassy Terrain. If you want to argue, argue with some actual calculations (Tapu Bulu learns Superpower, a better move against Ferrothorn. Tapu Bulu also learns Stone Edge, a better move against Zapdos.)

Sorry about if this post is harsh, but come on dude, you can include better calculations :/
Ayy, my point was to switch and wall into a predicted choice move, this ain't 1vs1.
If you got a Tapu Fini on field, obviously they will go with a Wood Hammer instead of a random Superpower or Stone Edge on it.

In my defense, I'd also like to point out that most of the Kartanas are Jolly and that none of these sets I exemplified are Fur Coat. If you consider that, both Kartana is pretty much dead against stall teams especially considering most of its moves got downsides (Wood Hammer has Recoil, Smart Strike has low BP, Stone Edge has arguably low acc, Superpower lowers Defense and Attack...)
 
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BAN Hoopa-Unbound. Even though stall is already really good and will only get better because of this, it is still just plain too powerful and should never have been unbanned.

ban Kartana. It may not seemingly be performing as well due to everyone always bringing a counter for its common sets as well as Celesteela just being plain viable, it's still comparable to Pheromosa in that its one of those pokemon that you can give it just about anything and it will do well regardless. I strongly believe that banning this thing will give the many mons that it outclasses a chance to shine.
 

Attachments

Giving it scarf will make it even easier to wall off. And since most of it's sets are choiced, it's really easy to predict what the opponent is going to use and switch into a appropriate wall, just play the mind game correctly.

And Levitate Doublade? Why would someone use it if EQ usually doesn't hit it as hard as Wood Hammer/Anchor Shot? The only real threatning ground move in this tier is Thousand Arrows, and Levitate does no shit to it.

You want some walls for Kartana? sure
Inheriting from Bulu, Adamant and Band for MAX damage.
None of the sets below are Fur Coat/Fluffly/Multiscale. But you can prolly image how silly the damage would be if they were.

Suicune
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 79-93 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Skarmory
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Grassy Terrain: 88-104 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 19.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-81 (20.6 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Celesteela
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela in Grassy Terrain: 109-129 (27.3 - 32.4%) -- 70.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 85-101 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Doublade
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 44-52 (13.6 - 16.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 112-132 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 65.4% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 84-100 (26 - 31%) -- 8.6% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Heatran
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 148-174 (38.3 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery <--- get ready to get Shell smash'd if you're fool enough to bait this

Ferrothorn
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Grassy Terrain: 92-109 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Grassy Terrain: 69-82 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Registeel
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel in Grassy Terrain: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 66-78 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel in Grassy Terrain: 124-148 (34 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Zapdos
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 249-293 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 97-114 (25.2 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Swampert
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 68% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert in Grassy Terrain: 126-149 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Scizor
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor in Grassy Terrain: 155-183 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 121-143 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 79.3% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor in Grassy Terrain: 116-137 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.9% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

*bonus*
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle in Grassy Terrain: 233-274 (84.1 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle: 182-214 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Even Salazzle can enter it and hurt someone HAHAHAHA


Pretty much every physical wall that resists grass or steel can enter in it after predicting correctly and kill it with Foul Play/Fire move, or even scout via Parting Shot/Volt Switch/U-turn into a setupper or anything else it needs. Since Steel trappers and HO are becoming more common, these switching moves are stupidly good in stall teams, which often rely on steel types.

Intimidate, Regenerator, Fur Coat, Toxic Heal are some of the abilities used in these kind of walls. Not to say that some others mons can burn or throw hazards in Kartana switchs-ins, which ends up being a huge advantage.

If you are afraid of Superpower, just get a ghost type, a setupper that resists fighting moves (Thundurus, Gyarados, Pheromosa, Koko, StoredCresselia), or a revenge killer like a steel trapper/anything faster than Kartana.


Inheriting from Dhelmise
(still writing this)
Counterpoint: Kartana can run a SD + Z-move/LO set and lure out most of these mons (also lol @ Suicune switching into 'tana):
Kartana @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance


252 Atk Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Suicune in Grassy Terrain: 494-584 (122.2 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Suicune in Grassy Terrain: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 374-441 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 301-355 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 175-208 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery (admittedly you probably don't want to run this; on the other hand, Doublade can't do much back)
+2 252 Atk Kartana Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 464-546 (120.2 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO, or
252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 368-434 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 400-472 (113.6 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 362-428 (99.4 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 302-356 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, or
+2 252 Atk Kartana Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 448-528 (116.6 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 409-482 (101.2 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (vs Sap Sipper)
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 301-355 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
bonus:
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 340-401 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Cresselia in Grassy Terrain: 240-283 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 347-409 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So, Unaware Magearna and Doublade check this set, but they lose to some of the other sets, such as Choice Band or [insert mon with Earthquake]:

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna in Grassy Terrain: 185-218 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 152-180 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

tl;dr what is a Kartana switchin plsban
 
(also lol @ Suicune switching into 'tana):
ikr savage af
yolo
does lots of mental damage

Counterpoint: Kartana can run a SD + Z-move/LO set and lure out most of these monsKartana @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance


252 Atk Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Suicune in Grassy Terrain: 494-584 (122.2 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Suicune in Grassy Terrain: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ce (...)
tl;dr what is a Kartana switchin plsban
Hm, true. I didn't consider Z-Moves or SD since they are rarely seen, but I guess it might be a thing.
Fightinium even delays the Superpower cons allowing another solid hit.
Still, not having choice scarf sacrifices speed which ain't good for a poké with such wannabe swift.
 
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Defensive answers to Kartana are also reliably fucked over by sets with Switcheroo or Trick, and choiced Kartana is very viable as a wallbreaker or revenge killer already. Dhelmise!Kartana with Switcheroo is great to lure in particular walls that the rest of your team enjoys seeing neutered; more than once have I been fucked over by it.

on another note, wtf i have reqs? Thank god cuz I can't ladder rn.
Ban Hoopa-Unbound and ban Kartana.
 
BAN: Hoopa-Unbound. Its has like no switchins due to the variety of sets that it can run and it is just too powerful. Its basically a stronger pheromosa.

NO BAN: Kartana. Although kartana can be very threatening if you do not have a check for it, Kartana is just not broken. For example Celesteela, Zapdos, Doublade and Swampert are all very good switchins and you could just run a magnet pull pokemon to kill it.

IMG_12790.jpg
 

Lemon Ginger

formerly Hot Dog Pizza

Doublade @ Eviolite (Miltank)
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Milk Drink
- Heal Bell
- Gyro Ball
- Hammer Arm / Stealth Rock

Can run some more Def invest if you want. It is pretty unnecessary though.

This is a bit of an extreme example, but Kartana can't even scratch this Doublade. If you're looking for a counter, here you go. Can't be trapped either, thanks to ghost typing.

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade in Grassy Terrain: 100-118 (31 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 88-105 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- 66.3% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 148-176 (45.9 - 54.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

0 Atk Doublade Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 124-148 (47.8 - 57.1%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
 
https://gyazo.com/f2b6b002a8de6b147b1d1a06f6808a8b

I'll use my CLC run to fund this suspect as well, if that's okay with you...

I'd like to ban Hoopa Unbound. While Bruxish sets are the most popular of them, that's hardly the only set... It has a variety of sets, from the terrifying Bisharp Defiant sets to Dragon Dancing Scrafty sets, to the Protean Kecleon sets, to Porygon-Z, and many special sets beyond that.... Hoopa is really scary, and there's not a real good way to get rid of it outside of offensive solutions. For that, it needs to go.

Kartana also needs a ban. Out of everything I saw on my laddering run, this gave me the most trouble from offense. While intimidate Charizard/Moltres are nice with dealing with Kartana and its Wood Hammers, both do not appreciate Banded Anchor Shots. I personally feel that Dhelmise sets are the nastiest, but Tapu Bulu is also something fierce. Sudowoodo is another option for nasty Wood Hammers and Head Smashes. It can also inherit from Licklicky or Goodra to nab Fire Punch, while only having to downgrade to Iron Tail and Seed Bomb... giving something with this much power with two boostable STABs the power to inherit sounds like a bad idea... and it is.

It WOULD like to inherit from Pyroak... but it doesn't exist.
 
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Ban both Hoopa-U and Kartana. Hoopa-U wholesale destroys stall with its insane mixed offenses. Inheritance fixes any issues kartana had offensively in OU and its stats/typing are too much to handle.

[\HIDE]
 
Is Glicko 1700+ really the only requirement?

Fresh account tho, like, a few hours ago account. Not a problem, right?
I started playing Inheritance a few weeks ago, so 'til I came over with my actual team I had to test many failure sets, ergo losing a lot; so it kinda screwed my main's Glicko. The main made into ladder's top 15 at some points tho, felt good while it lasted.
I see these guys topin' ladder so easily so I dunno if I need to do such to be able to vote. If it needs more battles/points I'll gladly do it tho, just tell me.


edit (20 games/20 wins):


Hoopa-U - Ban
I got some mixed feelings about this one.
Its weird type combination that only takes SE damage from Fairy and Bug and it's pretty good bulkiness on the special side, combined with its mixed stupidly high offenses, make it kinda unique since it is able to resist a few moves and completely obliterate as a response.

The fact it has access to really good abilities, and moves, to boost its power even more means it can pretty much fill any stallbreaker role you need. It also makes it kind of disgustingly impredictable, especially with Protean Kecleon sets. A few other exemples I've faced are Adaptability Porygon-Z, Tinted Lens Sigilyph, Strong Jaw Bruxish, Mega Launcher Clawtizer, Sheer Force Darmanitan, Mold Breaker/Sheer Force Druggdigon/Rampardos. And there are also some troll sets that I don't even feel like remembering.

I do agree this thing is as good as it is dumb, but I feel like it is really important to break the current stall in the metagame; the genie here forces stall players to find strategic counters not only to one, but to all the possible sets since these team don't really the offensive to stop it, which is kind of interesting. But being the key pokémon also is kinda lame.

This new gen introduced many good moves to stall, as well as new useful donors; I think people should start trying testing these new potentials, but the HO is kinda limiting their view and getting in the way of those who want such. Because of this, I agree with Hoopa-U receiving a ban, so players can adapt to this new gen without the pressure of an unpredictable havoc monster in many of the matches.

Normal Hoopa is a good option for those who still want to use something similar to stallbreaker Special Hoopa-U. Its different type means different sets and synergies tho. Actually, typing doesn't really matter much if Protean cancer still a thing.



Kartana - No Ban
I really can't see why. Most of the teams should be naturally able to deal with this thing.
HO has faster mons, Stall can stop most of the sets with walls+burn, Balanced can do both.

Yes, it can be versatile and tricky (just like hundreds of pokémon in this tier), but most of Kartanas are the same brute thing that have being utilized since this thing was introduced. And no matter which set you pick there will be always perfect counters to it. The fact it doesn't have access to speed boosting or priority in most of its predominant sets makes it vunerable to anything faster, its massive atk makes it predictable since it can't be a mixed, its typing makes it less effective against the common steel types and magnet pullers, prankster can lock into setups or in a useless move (if it's not choiced already) or haze 'em, etc.

---
Pheromosa ban was already a big win for stall users, I'm not sure if banning Hoopa-U and Kartana will make it more balanced. Already feel really RPSish in my opinion; most of the time it is something like: Stall -> Balanced -> HO -> Stall (...)
 
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Megazard

I'll show you the life of the mind!
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Mostly been messing around with stupid things but somehow I'm good enough. Absolutely voting ban kartana that shit just isn't healthy and I dont have anything to add to that discussion really. You just can't really take this on, it's excellent versus offense in the same way phero was, and seeing sets adapting for balance has just convinced me more. No, it's not that easy to take on, please don't calc smart strike vs suicune lol.
I might make another post later but for the time being, I'm not voting ban on hoopa. Yes switching in isn't exactly feasible and yes I used more pangoro than bruxish which is a shittier set but it's not that I promise. It's just that this meta is so stupidly offensive, with so many ridiculous threats that are hard to take on, that I've never felt like Hoopa is overpowering versus the most common playstyle. I've also seen stall, in fact I started running Hoopa because I was running too many anti-offense measures to deal with stall, but I think it's necessarily something that stall needs to adapt to alongside plenty of other ridiculous offensive threats that are being slept on (clefable zard y is pretty cool) and I haven't actually seen anything that tells me "wow, this mon dismantles stall way better than every other mon around and in a broken or unhealthy fashion". Still checks, still just enough to adapt to hoopa, still not enough being done. Not terribly impressed by any ban arguments which have just been token "you cant switch in" which might not mean much if hoopa's dead weight vs offense, I'd like to see a little more since my vote is still subject to change if anybody can convince me.

and also, while working on this suspect first is ideal, mega metagross and perhaps shell smash in general as well should absolutely be looked at if inheritance can keep up the activity after the month is over.
 
Screen Shot 2017-02-04 at 11.19.27 AM.png


Kartana - Ban

Kartana's claim to fame in Inheritance is a super-powered STAB move of choice, whether that's a Steelworker Anchor Shot or a Grassy Terrain Wood Hammer. Although both moves are of lackluster attacking types, Kartana's obscene base 181 attack stat allows them to deal heavy damage on all but the most dedicated defensive walls and a few 4x resists. Granted, many of these are popular steel types such as Celesteela and Heatran, but what team doesn't have a way to deal with those? Toss in a magnet puller inheriting from Golem-A, predict some switches, and problem solved. That's not to mention some other ways Kartana deals with these threats, including Switcheroo+CB, some form of All-Out Pummeling, an Earthquake on the off-chance your steel isn't airborne, or even a Kecleon Protean set (which I think should be banned but that's for another time).

The best counters to Kartana are Sap Sipper users, but even this is an imperfect answer. Grassy Surge weakens Earthquake, which is one of the main moves Sap Sipper mons run. Miltank is the only truly viable donor of the ability because of Milk Drink, and unless you want to run Fire Punch or a special mon which would be incredibly niche, it can't do much back besides set up rocks.

Overall, beating Kartana requires immense dedication on a teambuilding level. It can pick apart underprepared teams with ease, and is easily centralizing enough to deserve a ban.

Hoopa-Unbound - No Ban

Hoopa-U is interesting. I haven't seen it nearly as much as Kartana, and the only time it really hurt me was when it ran a Protean set from Kecleon (maybe I'm just underprepared for them? They hit so hard...). Tinted Lens Specs and Strong Jaw Band seem to be the most common sets, and in my experience they're underwhelming. Any reasonably bulky Dark type really hurts Hoopa's effectiveness. To me, the main tipping point in my decision was speed. Kartana clocks in at a base 109, a tick slower than Latios, Gengar, and Mega Metagross. That's fast. Hoopa can run a Scarf, but that limits its effectiveness as a wallbreaker where it truly excels. Because of that, any physical pokemon with a base speed stat greater than 80 can force a switch or take out the thing. For me, Inheritance is about creativity, and it's a lot more fun and competitive to brainstorm different physical attackers than thinking of new pokemon for Celesteela to inherit from. Hoopa-U doesn't limit the metagame nearly as much as Kartana, and for that reason I vote no ban.
 


I feel like others have made these points more eloquently than I ever could, so I'll just keep it simple. Ban Kartana, for it's incredible pressure on teambuilding, and ability to muscle past a number of its checks either through trapping or running different coverage. I overprepared for it, and it still pressured my team a fair bit. Do Not Ban Hoopa... for the time being. It 6-0's poorly built stall, but there are a number of mons that can pretty easily handle it, like most bulky dark types. It was the lategame star for most games for my team, but there are a number of mons that could've filled the exact same role, so it's not exactly out of place. Its lacklustre speed tier leaves it very vulnerable to revenge killing and faster mons, so it struggles to find its place on Hyper Offense. Still a fantastic mon for Bulky Offense/Balance, and I feel like it adds more to the meta than it takes away.
 
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Posting reqs before i lose a couple of games.


Voting ban on both stuff since I already pushed through. Kartana doesnt have a number of definite walls and i could think of fully physical defensive doublade as the only hard defensive stop (which is actually hurt by band eq barring levitate sets. Scarf sets shows its brilliance, especially when paired with a trapper if your opponent relies on steel types (not named doublade) to stop this thing. I actually have mixed feelings about Hoopa-U atm, but the fact that in can run Z-conversion, Protean,Shell Smash, Strong Jaws, or a Tinted lens set is what bothers me now. All of these have their own checks, but of course not all teams carry these for each set, and hey not even haze Prankster can stop this thing. I don't think its decent speed tier can stop it from destroying a number of good mons in the meta. It can also take hits from neutral Special attacks, which can let it set-up and actually sweep. Other sets just naturally hits hard and have dedicated walls as their checks.

On the other hand, not only offense has it marks on this tier. I actually take back that stall is bad, but actually just an inferior choice atm. Fur Coat is one of its very good assets that even frail mons on the physical side now checks a lot of stuff physically. There are actually a lot more good stuff for stall, but what I'm thinking about which is not so healthy is Murkrow. Prankster+Reliable recovery and haze(actually foul play too) can make a mon a penultimate stop to any sweepers, barring dark types. I'd actually like to hear more about people's thoughts in these since i havent faced much Murkrow sets and i don't think it deserves a suspect yet. I really just hope we have more time in this meta since it's actually fun.