Introducing...Slaking

[fastball77]

This slaking was one of my first starters when I used wifi =\ (and that is ancient)

W/e though, either way, I interchanged pursuit with another move: eq. Sometimes those metas get annoying and revenge kills on sounded nicer than pursuit gengars and azelfs.

I agree, it's one of those cases when I wish a pokemon had 5 moveslots instead of 4.

@everyone: it's okay for people to not like this set and disagree, that what a discussion is for. Maybe the choice scarf idea isn't original, but I know I had never seen one used competitively. It's just frustrating to put work into something, doing damage calculations and typing it all out and have people crap all over it. We just thought it could be brought to light that this thing could possibly counter some of the things that are difficult to counter, and maybe offer a change of pace to handle these things instead of using a blissey or a cresselia like everyone does.

 

[Blln]

The only thing I think this would work on is Garchomp, because Jolly +Speed Slaking outspeeds the others anyway (well, ties mence, but about 3/4s of mence are modest anyway), and any good battle would rather assume you are running max speed and switch than leave a perfectly good pokemon to get KOed. Most of the time, all that's going to happen is Mence/Draggy/Gyara will be out, they'll use they're move as you switch in, and then they'll switch out, because Slaking even without the Scarf outspeeds them, so now all youv'e accomplished is severly crippling your Slaking...

Now I suppose this could work on Garchomp, because if you switch in on a Garchomp Dragon Claw or something, chomp might stay in expecting to outspeed you, and you can then surprise and OHKO it, but I think that's the only situation it works, well I guess DD Outrage Draggy counts too, because it might stay in expecting to OHKO with Outrage. Other Draggys/Gyara/non-max speed salas you outspeed even without Scarf, so they're going to switch out after you come in.

This could be any pokemon with a Choice Scarf and Boltbeam punches, really...

 

[beez]

Surgo sent out Gyarados!
Beez used (something)
---
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Beez sent out Slaking!
---
Surgo sent out (counter)
Slaking did absolutely nothing!
---
Beez switches to (counter)
Surgo's "counter" does absolutely nothing!

 

[Surgo]

You managed to miss the point entirely. I'll explain it again:

This set, it cannot kill these four metagame threats. It cannot kill these threats because it has extreme difficulty overcoming the rest of the team! You've managed to remarkably overspecialize yourself against four things while dropping what makes Slaking deadly in the first place. "Everything has problems with their counters", you might say, but "everything" doesn't have truant.

 

[chaos]

Surgo sent out Gyarados!
Beez used (something)
---
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Beez sent out Slaking!
---
Surgo sent out (counter)
Slaking did absolutely nothing!
---
Beez switches to (counter)
Surgo's "counter" does absolutely nothing!

It doesn't work like that. Cresselia can survive a million and one switchins, Slaking doesn't have Leftovers and will wear down with Spikes/SR/Sandstorm/damage from switching in.

 

[fastball77]

This could be any pokemon with a Choice Scarf and Boltbeam punches, really...

Possibly, but the thing I like about Slaking is he can switch into most attacks from these pokemon, survive and then attack. I won't speculate how many pokemon can switch into the majority of attacks from these pokemon (I honestly have no idea), but I would guess it's not many.

 

[beez]

fair enough. i do appreciate the criticism. however the frustrating thing is that it seems everyone is looking at this thing in a vacuum. it's not meant to take down an entire team by itself, and with support from the rest of the team, it has been effective in taking out some major threats. every pokemon has a counter and slaking is no exception. if you pick apart any set on any pokemon you can find ways to stop it. i'm not going to argue this anymore, there's no point. if anyone else would like to add something constructive to the thread, be my guest.

 

[beez]

It doesn't work like that. Cresselia can survive a million and one switchins, Slaking doesn't have Leftovers and will wear down with Spikes/SR/Sandstorm/damage from switching in.

i think i noted that in my team i have wish support. if not, my bad.

 

[Bologo]

You managed to miss the point entirely. I'll explain it again:

This set, it cannot kill these four metagame threats. It cannot kill these threats because it has extreme difficulty overcoming the rest of the team! You've managed to remarkably overspecialize yourself against four things while dropping what makes Slaking deadly in the first place. "Everything has problems with their counters", you might say, but "everything" doesn't have truant.

I agree with Surgo here. Remember, these are just 4 metagame threats that honestly aren't even on every team. There's A LOT of metagame threats and it's not really a good idea to overspecialize against only certain counters because if your opponent's team doesn't have them, what the hell is Slaking going to do now?

I'll admit you did put in Thunderpunch which will help if a Skarmory switches in, but that's about it.

Chaos is right as well, this can get stalled really easily. Slaking will take a lot of damage if it keeps on having to switch in and out, which will in turn hurt the rest of your team as well since they'll have to take stealth rock/spike damage as well.

Yeah, I know any Slaking has to switch in and out a lot, but just like when you're giving your pokemon a nature, you want to give it the one that'll be the most beneficial to its stats right? Same goes for Choice items. It's not going to outspeed anything else significant besides those dragons, which it can already do by just giving it max speed and jolly which was already mentioned. Something like Weavile still outspeeds it since with no speed EVs it only has 354 speed.

Once again, I'm not saying this is a bad set, but I'm just saying that using two 75 BP unSTABed moves, and a 40 BP unSTABed move isn't going to do a whole lot unless your team really has trouble with those 4 pokemon that you mentioned.

Remember, you'll be using STAB Return most of time since it has the same power as a SE Thunder Punch/Ice Punch, and it has almost double the power of SE Pursuit unless they're trying to switch. I suppose if you have awesome prediction it will work.

One final note of advice: I highly recommend using a spinner if you're using this because you don't want to keep taking that indirect damage eh. The wisher on your team can't stay alive forever. :]

 

[Deck Knight]

One final note of advice: I highly recommend using a spinner if you're using this because you don't want to keep taking that indirect damage eh. The wisher on your team can't stay alive forever. :]

Unless its one of those new-fangled Wish Cresselia.

And this Slaking set still has 400+ Attack. If you're trying to kill Garchomp and they send in a Ghost other than Dusknoir/Spiritomb or something like Rhyperior, expecting Return, they're going to be in for a decent sized hit. This won't be the case for the likes of Skarm(unless TP) Steelix, and Metagross. Skarm is the only one that can't do much to Slaking. I'd say that, unless you feel strongly that Pursuit is going to help you more often, replace it with Earthquake.

 

[minty4president]

Everyone seems to be saying "Your opponent will switch" Surely if they're switching to cressy or donphan or other common slaking counters (Which if you're using slaking you should know well) you can predict it and move accordingly.
I do like the idea of this but i think a special set may have more potential as a "surprise" factor.

 

[ΩDonut]

Hate to disappoint you all, but Pursuit + elemental punches is an illegal set. Pursuit is a DP-only bred move, elemental punches are from Emerald, so it can't get both at the same time.

 

[Bobbert]

Hate to disappoint you all, but Pursuit + elemental punches is an illegal set. Pursuit is a DP-only bred move, elemental punches are from Emerald, so it can't get both at the same time.

umm i think slaking learns pursuit by breeding in adv

 

[ΩDonut]

umm i think slaking learns pursuit by breeding in adv

What the hell, it does!

I bred my Slakoths on DP all for nothing!

 

[DoctorPhanan]

Surgo sent out Gyarados!
Beez used (something)
---
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Beez sent out Slaking!
---
Surgo sent out (counter)
Slaking did absolutely nothing!

Maybe I'm just a noob, but I thought that was the point of a counter. A pokemon that could potentially switch into an attack, and threaten to KO or force a switch.

 

[Nate]

The argument really can be simplified a whole lot further.

Scenario 1: Dragon Slayer

Dragon comes in on whatever
--
Slaking comes in
Dragon does 50-60% damage to slaking
--
Slaking ohkos aforementioned dragon

Scenario 2: mildly intelligent battlers
Dragon comes in on whatever
--
Slaking comes in
Dragon does 50-60% to slaking
--
Cresselia/Donphan/Skarmory/etc comes in
Slaking does minimal damage

Beez is arguing that the set is remarkably effective because it is a counter to wildly standard dragon pokemon. He posits that they take 60% damage to their slaking and will ohko a sweeper in return. Against any competent battler, however, the dragon pokemon will not stay in against the slaking. Does that mean slaking has "countered" the dragon? Not at all. The slaking is under half health, making it impossible to switch in again. Their dragon is still at full (or near full) health, as is their wall (skarm/cresselia/whatever).

The argument for a slaking which doesn't focus on speed is as follows: it can survive more hits (including taking under 53% damage from these dragons), and can dish out far more damage to any wallish switch-ins.

Creating a pokemon that requires your opponent to be retarded is not generally a good idea.

 

[Cooper]

Beez, I've just got to say one thing: lighten up. Instead of actually responding to criticisms of what has the potential to be a good set, you just flame everyone who questions its potential and calls them "ChainChomp worshippers." Accept that your Slaking is not god. Anyway....

There are two reasons why thus Slaking can never work: it's too painfully obvious what it does, and it is too situational. Like Nate said, a Dragon comes in, Slaking switches and takes at least 50% on the switch, plus any Spikes, SR damage. Smart player thinks, "Oh wow, that Slaking must be a counter for my dragon. I'd better switch." Counter switches in, Slaking does nothing and is forced to switch, giving counter time to switch/set-up.

Second, this Slaking has been advertised as "being the best counter to four of the most overused pokemon this generation." Well, it is a counter, but that's about al it does. Return is there for STAB and Pursuit to take on Ghosts, but why would you actually plan on using them if the whole point to your Slaking is to counter the dragons? Starmie does exactly that, but can also Rapid Spin. Same with Donphan.

What I believe I'm trying to say here is that your Slaking, contrary to what you apparantly believe, is still a work in progress, not a finished masterpiece. Find a way for it to address it's wallish counters and some nitch that makes it better than the other Dragon counters, and THEN maybe people won't bash it.

 

[beez]

Beez, I've just got to say one thing: lighten up.Second, this Slaking has been advertised as "being the best counter to four of the most overused pokemon this generation." Well, it is a counter, but that's about al it does. Return is there for STAB and Pursuit to take on Ghosts, but why would you actually plan on using them if the whole point to your Slaking is to counter the dragons? Starmie does exactly that, but can also Rapid Spin. Same with Donphan.

What I believe I'm trying to say here is that your Slaking, contrary to what you apparantly believe, is still a work in progress, not a finished masterpiece. Find a way for it to address it's wallish counters and some nitch that makes it better than the other Dragon counters, and THEN maybe people won't bash it.

go back in the thread and find where i said it was god, or where i said it was a finished masterpiece. i'm pretty sure i never said either. also try to find an analysis where they only listed two moves, instead of adding two more for filler that maybe could serve a purpose every once in a while.

 

[fastball77]

@ Nate: I know what you're saying and that was something I thought of when creating this set. However, in about a 35-40 match test cycle, I found that this worked over 90% of the time. Could it be that everyone I faced was an idiot? perhaps, but in talking to some people particularly in the case of a DDer in nearly all cases they didnt think slaking had a move to OHKO them, in which case they would take the hit and get another turn to set up for a game ending sweep. Also, I agree with you that a smart battler will know something is fishy when a slaking comes in vs. said pokemon, but I think many people for some reason are more reluctant to switch out once they began to facilitate a sweep (especially on a LO/choice item pkmn with stealth rock out, which my team uses). Basically the point of this long rant, I understand your argument, it makes sense and I have thought of it, but in testing it has worked. Maybe I havn't played the best opponents, but on Shoddy its hard to tell who's "good" and who's not before you battle them.

@Cooper: WTH are you talking about?? The whole situation was handled by beez and the mods, he apologized stated his reasoning all about 10 hours ago. It's over. If you have further problems with what he said you can handle it via PM instead of bringing it back in this thread. Also, I don't think I or anyone else every used the term "masterpiece for this set". Better yet, how the hell can Starmie switch into any Dragon move by the dragons and survive. Sure it can ohko them back, but it can't switch into ANY move and survive. I'm pretty sure a counter can do both. Your opinions with the slaking set are fine, since discussion is allowed, and you can debate whether this slaking is a true counter also but I really don't like the fact that you or anyone else puts words in mine or anyone elses mouth. 0_o

 

[Bologo]

Hmm...I have a little suggestion. Since you're going to be forcing the dragons to switch a lot, and let's admit it, Pursuit is not going to do much without a Choice Band because of being unSTABed, how about putting Focus Punch over Pursuit?

Now, 150 BP is a lot better than Pursuit's 40/80. If you know the dragon or whatever you're trying to counter is going to switch out, then just predict the switch and use Focus Punch, then whatever they switch in gets a huge knuckle sandwich.

If something like Skarmory decides to switch in, remember, you'll be doing the same damage as a Super-Effective Thunderpunch as they will both equal 150 BP after that. I'll admit it's only a 3HKO, but hey so is Thunderpunch.

You don't really need Pursuit that much, Thunderpunch will annihilate Starmie, Gengar can't take very many hits from those elemental punches, and really, the only thing you're going to be using pursuit on is Cresselia, who's probably not going to feel like switching out and it's going to just moonlight off the damage since pursuit will have crap power.

Yeah, so IMO, Focus Punch is a lot better than Pursuit if you can predict switches well, and Pursuit seems to me like it's not going to do much to the dragons if you try to catch them switching out, and neither is Focus Punch, but yeah. It's up to you though, you can give it a try if you'd like. Give Earthquake a try over Pursuit as well, and tell us which one of the three moves you like the best in that slot after using Pursuit/Earthquake/Focus Punch in that slot. Tell us which one works out the best at dishing out the most damage like regular Slaking, but also tanks well like your Slaking idea. Alrighty? :]

 

[Aero]

Unlike other CS users, you can't hit twice consecutively. So like a CS Garchomp would be able to Earthquake Starmie, then threaten a second, faster Earthquake, meaning Starmie is forced to run. Slaking is forced to switch after the first hit. Not to mention, it does less damage than lower tier CB users, especially due to the high amount of Normal resists (and the fact that Tpunch and Ipunch does like nothing to most Normal resists as well).

So, if we forget the fact that this CS Slaking can unreliably "counter" the 600 dragons (CS Slaking is fucked the second time Salamence comes in unless you honestly think you can get Wish to it before Salamence manages to dance its way back onto the stage again...

CS Slaking is not scary. Especially with that EV spread, it does laughable damage against many walls, you'll find Slaking will be switching out constantly without even doing anything significant. Cresselia will constantly come in and laugh off your attacks. In the meantime, Slaking will be taking decent hits whenever coming in due to his lack of resistances (or big hits if you really intend on coming in on Dragons), and also have health ripped away due to SR and whatnot.

Then again, I have an extremely low opinion of CS in general, so this is really no different than my usual opinion towards almost any CS user. It almost always seems gimmicky to me except in cases like CS Garchomp.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

What the hell, it does!

I bred my Slakoths on DP all for nothing!

So, does it mean that 30+ [everything] Slakoth for the Smogon Breeding House doesn't have Ice Punch...?

 

[beez]

Hmm...I have a little suggestion. Since you're going to be forcing the dragons to switch a lot, and let's admit it, Pursuit is not going to do much without a Choice Band because of being unSTABed, how about putting Focus Punch over Pursuit?

Now, 150 BP is a lot better than Pursuit's 40/80. If you know the dragon or whatever you're trying to counter is going to switch out, then just predict the switch and use Focus Punch, then whatever they switch in gets a huge knuckle sandwich.

If something like Skarmory decides to switch in, remember, you'll be doing the same damage as a Super-Effective Thunderpunch as they will both equal 150 BP after that. I'll admit it's only a 3HKO, but hey so is Thunderpunch.

You don't really need Pursuit that much, Thunderpunch will annihilate Starmie, Gengar can't take very many hits from those elemental punches, and really, the only thing you're going to be using pursuit on is Cresselia, who's probably not going to feel like switching out and it's going to just moonlight off the damage since pursuit will have crap power.

Yeah, so IMO, Focus Punch is a lot better than Pursuit if you can predict switches well, and Pursuit seems to me like it's not going to do much to the dragons if you try to catch them switching out, and neither is Focus Punch, but yeah. It's up to you though, you can give it a try if you'd like. Give Earthquake a try over Pursuit as well, and tell us which one of the three moves you like the best in that slot after using Pursuit/Earthquake/Focus Punch in that slot. Tell us which one works out the best at dishing out the most damage like regular Slaking, but also tanks well like your Slaking idea. Alrighty? :]

hmm, i do like the focus punch idea a lot if a switch can be predicted. the only problem i've seen is that no one switches. ever. another 8 or so battles this morning, and in each the first 2 battles i took out a gyarados, and in a few others i killed garchomps and salamences in one hit. maybe the entire shoddy field is dumb, but this is what the field is right now. overthinking and giving your opponent more credit than he deserves only ends up hurting you in the end. sure, in an ideal world where my opponent is a computer and has perfect prediction skills, this set may not work, but with the state of the field right now it's been doing pretty well.

the focus punch idea is nice though, especially since pursuit is kind of useless. the only problem is if they don't switch, slaking is dead.

 

[Cooper]

I'd like to formally apologize for what I said. Thinking about it in retrospect, I was commenting on what I saw as Beez's past arrogance, and conciously didn't take into account his apology. For that I am sorry, and this will be the last time I will bring up the past.

As for Slaking's countering ability, sure it can switch into the Dragons and take about 50%. The problem is, that's where the goodness stops. Any smart player will immediatly switch out to something resistant to whatever the Dragon/Gyarados was weak to. Slaking will be forced to switch, blah blah, I've said it all before. In my opinion, this Slaking needs to be more versatile. So here's what I propose. Note: this is probably a bad idea considering my set will make Slaking even more situational than it already is, but....

Slaking@ Choice Scarf
Mild Nature (+Sp. Atk, -Def)
EVs: 248 HP/ 190 Sp. Def/ 68 Sp. Atk/ 4 Atk
-Thunderpunch
-Ice Beam
-Return
-Pursuit

Damage Calcs:

Ice Beam
Against Garchomp- 100%-117.88%
Against Salamence- 113.25%-133.43%
Against Dragonite- 96.91%-113.89%
Against Donphan- 73.29%-86.02%
Against Tangrowth- 78.95%-92.69%
Against Hippowdon- 48.81%-57.39%

Thunderpunch
Against BulkyDos (After Intimidate)- 57.29%-67.45%
Against DDDos (After Intimidate)- 77.14%-90.57%
Against Skarmory- 28.44%-33.53%

Pursuit on the switch
Against Max HP/Def Cresselia- 28.6%-33.78%
Against Max HP/Sp. Def Cresselia- 34.91%-40.99%
Against Dusknoir- 44.9%-53.06%
Against Gengar- 102.29%-120.61%

Well, that's the best I can think of. Notice that Ice Beam will OHKO all dragons except Dragonite, but, as has been said, no one uses Dragonite. It can also 2HKO the common Slaking switch-ins (barring Hippowdon, but barely). Even having lost some Attack EVs and it's Adamant nature, Thunderpunch can still OHKO both forms of common Gyarados, and Pursuit still OHKOs Gengars switching out.

What I especially like about this set is that it puts Salamence's Intimidate to shame. Ice Beam is a nice surprise for those physical walls that switch in. Someone suggested a special Slaking earlier in the thread for more of a surprise factor, which made sense to me with Slaking's decent 95 base special attack.

Like I said, I'm not sure how effective this spread will be, or if anyone will even pay attention. I just figured that since I've been bashing this set as neding improvements, I might as well suggest some.

 

[beez]

hmm. that looks pretty nice, and able to mess up tangrowth, donphan, and hippowdon. my only concern is how much defensive ability it's losing by running a -def nature. i'll run some calcs to see if it can still take the outrages from garchomp and dragonite.