Jirachi and Togekiss should be Ubers

[musiquev24]

Edit: PLEASE IGNORE THE ANGER RAISING TITLE. I don't want a flame war, and I'm sorry for making a title like that. Rather, this is a discussion on Flinch hax.

For this game to be competitive as possible, random effects have to be reduced, so that skill can be the most accountable thing for winning a match. This is the reason why evasion moves are banned, and I think it goes on the same basis for serene grace flinching. The fact that these pokemon can (and often do) KO several more pokemon than they should because you don't have a chance to do anything is just plain silly.

Yes I have a low post count and I haven't been around competitive pokemon for a long time. But I am not new to competitive gaming, and I know something out of whack. I think at least a discussion on the topic would be great.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

If you don't like Flinching, use a pokemon with Inner focus or stead fast ;)
Problem solved. No need to thank me.

 

[musiquev24]

If you don't like Flinching, use a pokemon with Inner focus or stead fast ;)
Problem solved. No need to thank me.

Really your answer and Nemesis' answers were not was I was looking for.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

If you think it's so broken, cheap and efective, why don't you use it yourself against other people. Maybe then, they can teach you how to counter/ handle it properly.

 

[foibles]

our are a shame to Portland Oregon musiquev24. Anyone to dumb to defend against serene grace can barely play pokemon.

While we are on the topic of eliminating luck, let's get rid of paralisis, confusion and crits. They are all luck based too. Heck, pokemon has to large an amount of luck to be competative, so let's get rid of the whole thing while we're at it.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

our are a shame to Portland Oregon musiquev24. Anyone to dumb to defend against serene grace can barely play pokemon.

tut-tut, let's not get offensive. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion.

 

[Abacus]

The thing with flinching is that you have to be faster than the opponent for it to work, which limits its usefulness. Any scarfer is not going to be flinched (except against scarf jirachi).

It is worth noting that luck in intractably part of pokemon. But at least in theory, I agree that this discussion is worthwhile, as the answers to this have some pertinence to the OHKO and evasion debates. I'll let the better arguers step in now.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

As nemisis stated, he is beating a dead horse. There have been at least a couple of threads with the same subject and i believe they all ended up being locked.

 

[Veedrock]

This is about as ridiculous as that "Trick clause" that was suggested.

ADAPT. Don't whine to have it removed because you don't like it.

This is why Shaymin-S is being retested, because whiners like you got haxed once or twice and deemed it uber because you didn't like it. It wasn't a real vote. Yes, people use flinchax, but they don't rely on it on its entirety (sp?). It helps to get hax, but it's not necessary. It's not like them not getting one flinch is going to cost them the match. It's an added bonus. It's not luck because they aren't entirely dependant on it working.

Use something faster, use Steadfast/Inner focus, and be quiet already.

 

[Chimera]

You weren't looking for answers that argued your point?

Blissey laughs at Togekiss, Electivire comes in on Twave with a Motor Drive boost and threatens with a STAB physical attack.

And heck, Jirachi strategies are more often Wish support and Tricking a Choice Item than relying on flinchhax. Heck the best it gets is Zen Headbutt. Isn't that a 10% chance normally? Gyarados gets the same with Waterfall.

You talk about Scarf Jirachi using Iron Head over and over, what about bringing in a Gyarados? Or an Empoleon, or Skarmory or Metagross or (getting my point?).

We all lose games to luck sometimes. It's aggravating. But the only ways that luck is minimized by policy are in situations where the idea of risk vs reward is warped to an extreme. OHKO moves and evasion boosters are widely available and far more easily abused. Rather than complain 2 pokes should be ubers, make your team better. It's not hard to deal with them. And yeah, even with preparation you'll lose sometimes to a crit, full paralysis, a flinch or two. But a good player will be able to focus on how they played, realize they did well, and just move on.

 

[musiquev24]

our are a shame to Portland Oregon musiquev24. Anyone to dumb to defend against serene grace can barely play pokemon.

So instead of bashing me, could you instead give me a real reason as to why there is absolutely no problem with it?

I'm not saying its complete god mode. I'm just saying shouldn't luck factors be reduced more for a more optimal playing field?

Maybe I'm just angry, and if thats so, then tell me why its actually okay, THEN call me stupid and let my post run off the page. I just would like a discussion instead of 'ololol ur bad jst run inner focus okay?? ^_^_^_^"

 

[Veedrock]

There is nothing to discuss. Are you looking for other people to share their tragic stories about how they were haxed out of a game and want it changed? I'm curious as to what discussion you were expecting.

Perhaps you should check this thread. Some guy didn't like trick, so he suggested a clause to fix it. It was shot down rather quickly. Nobody wants to here you whine because you don't want to adapt. Why fix what isn't broken?

I highly recommend people prove that something is actually "broken" and not "annoying" before recommending a rule or a clause regarding it.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

So instead of bashing me, could you instead give me a real reason as to why there is absolutely no problem with it?

I'm not saying its complete god mode. I'm just saying shouldn't luck factors be reduced more for a more optimal playing field?

Maybe I'm just angry, and if thats so, then tell me why its actually okay, THEN call me stupid and let my post run off the page. I just would like a discussion instead of 'ololol ur bad jst run inner focus okay?? ^_^_^_^"

Luck factors are a huge part of the game. If you don't like luck ruining your fun, then pokemon D/P/Plat and most other pokemon games are not for you.

 

[musiquev24]

You weren't looking for answers that argued your point?

Blissey laughs at Togekiss, Electivire comes in on Twave with a Motor Drive boost and threatens with a STAB physical attack.

And heck, Jirachi strategies are more often Wish support and Tricking a Choice Item than relying on flinchhax. Heck the best it gets is Zen Headbutt. Isn't that a 10% chance normally? Gyarados gets the same with Waterfall.

You talk about Scarf Jirachi using Iron Head over and over, what about bringing in a Gyarados? Or an Empoleon, or Skarmory or Metagross or (getting my point?).

We all lose games to luck sometimes. It's aggravating. But the only ways that luck is minimized by policy are in situations where the idea of risk vs reward is warped to an extreme. OHKO moves and evasion boosters are widely available and far more easily abused. Rather than complain 2 pokes should be ubers, make your team better. It's not hard to deal with them. And yeah, even with preparation you'll lose sometimes to a crit, full paralysis, a flinch or two. But a good player will be able to focus on how they played, realize they did well, and just move on.

Alright, thanks for your honest answer, as well as Veed's. I understand there ARE things that I can do. Sure, I can pull in an Empoleon or Skarmory to (hopefully) deal with it, or to at least force a switch, or even run my own scarfer to outspeed and KO. The idea I was getting at is that it forces me to more specifically design my team to these threats, who I will again remind that often win only to luck. I know I can say a lot of times "Well I should have won for being a better player than that. I just feel the idea of flinch hax is something a bit radical.

And Veed, I wasn't saying SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE, the title was more or less just supposed to be powerful I guess, and maybe I should have changed it. I really just wanted a discussion.

 

[musiquev24]

If I might add onto what I said, as a bit more of a response to you Veed...

Instead of forcing the idea of 'adapt', why not at least talk about getting it changed. This is a game that is controlled by the players. Is it not why we have suspect to see if a pokemon is too powerful, and why we can have discussions like this to really see if something is infact just too good?

 

[The Business Man]

If luck was removed from the game, it would turn into this:

X > Y > Z > X

Eveything would be set in stone. No chance, no gambles. Super gay.

The luck factor adds an excitement to the game. It can totally screw you over or swing the game in your favor. Just like REAL sports :) Sometimes I'll get lucky when playing hockey and when my teamate takes a low percentage shot the puck will hit me when I'm in front of the net and goes into the goal. Is the other team going to complain and go "They relied on luck to get that goal! No fair! Remove them from the game!" Obviously not.

Quit yo bitchin'.

 

[Veedrock]

(you could have just editted your post...)

Sorry, you went off the deep end so I did go off the deep end. And I do understand discussing if something to too powerful, but A) the topic title is misleading and B) I don't think they are too powerful. Yes, I've switched Magnezone into Jirachi and was flinched to death by a 4x resist move before I could get anywhere (and trust me, I was none too happy). But that's part of the game. It's no different than that one critical hit or untimely miss that costs a match.

EDIT: Well, not too different. Crits and misses aren't entirely caused by the player (unless modifiers were put in place, such as evasion and accuracy or scope lens/super luck), while Flinch moves on a SG pokemon is expected a good deal of hax. But in reality, the chance of it actually flinching you is on level with Hypnosis, a move that has declined in popularity because of the accuracy drop.

 

[foibles]

ok. first of all, jirachi gets iron head as well as zen headbutt.

But, anyway, once a long time ago on official sever shen I was too shitty at pokemon, I was using a paraflinch togekiss. But I could still be soundly beaten by this other guy on a regular basis. Why? You may ask; the answer is that he was using a subseed sceptile. Anything faster than a flinched nulifies the effect of said flinch. The only commen way to slow fast pokemon down is with paralasis, and the moves that paralize are limited mostly to stun spore, twave, body slam and discharge. This leaves only only body slam and stun spore to paralize ground types, and body slam is the much more commen one.

so, anything that can either avoid paralisis, pose an instant threat on the switch, or can somehow benifit or is unnafected by flinch (think lucario)can beat anything that relies on flinch hax.

 

[musiquev24]

(you could have just editted your post...)

Sorry, you went off the deep end so I did go off the deep end. And I do understand discussing if something to too powerful, but A) the topic title is misleading and B) I don't think they are too powerful. Yes, I've switched Magnezone into Jirachi and was flinched to death by a 4x resist move before I could get anywhere (and trust me, I was none too happy). But that's part of the game. It's no different than that one critical hit or untimely miss that costs a match.

Yes, and I will probably edit my frist post, though I was sad to find that you cannot edit the title of your post. I didn't mean to start a flame war, but I did :[

In response to your second post foibes...

Yes, I know I can do something. There are pokemon that CAN counter them, and I have tried so many different set ups to stop it. However,
I feel as though flinch hax poses a much bigger threat than so many other parts of the game. There are so many things that you have to design your team to be able to handle, such as SR, Toxic spikes, weather teams/changes, spinning, type weaknesses, type immunities, status effects, etc. etc. I think having something like flinching which has so few options to use to deal with is just ridiculous, especially, once again, because it is luck based.

I'm not completely against luck, I just think flinching goes too far.

If thats 'part of the game' though, Pokemon might just not be my game.

 

[Stagnant]

ADAPT. Don't whine to have it removed because you don't like it.

Adapt. If the community was willing to adapt we would still have Wobbuffet, Skymin, and Chomp in OU. And I would have my damned Wynutt in UU.

 

[Veedrock]

That was a problem with Garchomp; it adapted. Players adapted to Garchomp, so Garchomp adapted to its counters, and hence the counters had to stack to even the score, hence overcentralization to this single pokemon. (but I'm not going to get into this discussion here)

With Skymin, that lack of willingness to adapt led to its ban. People didn't want to adapt. Most voters that wanted it uber fought it 2-3 times and were haxed to hell and back and had a very biased opinion of it based on that. Hence, a whack vote and now it will be tested again.

I'm not too familiar with the Wobbuffet situation but I'm sure it's a bit deeper than people not wanting to adapt.

 

[Murkrow]

OP: Why ban Jirachi and Togekiss? Serene Grace doubles the 30% flinch rate to 60% so that if you are slower, you should expect to be flinched; it's the same percentage as Hypnosis hitting. Isn't it more haxy when, say, Fire Fang's 10% flinch goes off? In that case, the offending hax effect was more unlikely to occur, so complaints of "why me?" "why now?" get you slightly more sympathy. Likewise, if Overheat (90 acc = 10% chance of miss) misses, you'd probably find that miss more offensive than if Zap Cannon (50 acc = 50% chance of miss) missed--that's why I find it odd that you single out the relatively high-likelihood hax events to ban (60% = more likely than not), rather than the low-likelihood events that would presumably be more upsetting if they happened to kick in at a critical juncture.

 

[Tangerine]

Just think of the entire flinch hax ordeal as one big powerful but inconsistent move and we would have none of the whining.

If a Jirachi will beat a Gliscor 60% of the chance by flinching it to death then you should think of it as "this is how useful Jirachi is", rather than "Gliscor was supposed to beat Jirachi it's not fair". It just shows how many people still are stuck in "counters are everything" mentality.

nothing to discuss here.

 

[Jumpman16]

and further:

Adapt. If the community was willing to adapt we would still have Wobbuffet, Skymin, and Chomp in OU. And I would have my damned Wynutt in UU.

good thing the community's willingness to adapt is now going to be judged by Aeolus and myself. And besides, you can only say that about garchomp, since Wobbuffet is uber by our definition regardless of the extent to which people were willing to adapt to it, and skymin's going through stage 2 againin like a week