Keldeo, evaluating a potential suspect test.

[ShootingStarmie]

with ttar support there's also no jellicent to wall it!

Jellicent does have it's ways to get around Tyranitar. I mean, it's not like Tyranitar can switch in safely, and most Jellicent are running more speed to out speed Banded Tyranitar. Jellicent is still there to wall it.

 

[BKC]

sure ttar can switch in safely, you can come in on a taunt or recover, and jelli is as good as fucked unless it wins the 50/50 predict (and cb pursuit does shitloads to it anyways so if it's not at full health as well as being bold max/max [which is rare because people are idiots and run sdef jelli] it's probably 2hkoed even if it stays in).

 

[Jukain]

2. Keldeo has few innate weaknesses and many innate strengths: It is not easily trapped, it resists Stealth Rocks, and no priority move does significant damage to it: At +2 Breloom and Lucario don't come close to KOing it because it has perfectly solid bulk.

+2 Jolly Life Orb Keldeo Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Keldeo: Mach Punch: 85.8 - 101.54 -- Adamant LO does Mach Punch: 94.13 - 111.11%

+2 Adamant Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs. 4/0 Keldeo : 74.69 - 87.96%

This isn't "nowhere close. Just saying.

Are you kidding me? Instead of getting to use any grass types for water attacks from rain spam ferrothorn for example, I now have to use a Celebii or a Latias. For me keldeo forces us to use certain pokemon over others when the other pokemon may be better for the team itself because it gives better utility for example. Keldeo essentially makes itself a nuisance for the team because it the opposing team needs atleast one strong check to keldeo. Just my opinion but I feel that keldeo is unhealthy on today's metagame.

You're not "forced" to use a Celebi or Latias. It's perfectly viable to use Pokemon others have mentioned, such as Amoonguss, Gyarados, Roserade, and Jellicent. Overall I find Keldeo very manageable, and I don't think the metagame is so extremely warped around it as Myzozoa says, nor do I find it an indisputable #1 with the rest of OU as #2. When you're checking Keldeo, you're also checking rain as a whole. With that Grass-type (i.e. Celebi/Amoonguss/Roserade -- Ferrothorn can't do anything against rain really anyway as Spinda said due to it being unable to handle many [hint: not just Keldeo] of rain's threats) you've got Politoed, Rotom-W, and Thundurus-T covered, which are rain's major threats. Running the Grass-type is preparing you for rain as a whole, and not just Keldeo. Latias provides similar threat coverage. You might be running this Pokemon primarily for Keldeo, but it provides an insane amount of extra insurance against these threats, and each has its own extra utility. Without having to worry about Landorus steamrolling your checks/counters, Keldeo becomes a lot easier to handle.

I don't think having the ability to tear apart teams with favorable conditions for it and the necessary team support equates to something being broken.

sure ttar can switch in safely, you can come in on a taunt or recover, and jelli is as good as fucked unless it wins the 50/50 predict (and cb pursuit does shitloads to it anyways so if it's not at full health as well as being bold max/max [which is rare because people are idiots and run sdef jelli] it's probably 2hkoed anyways even if it stays in).

Will-O-Wisp?

 

[ShootingStarmie]

sure ttar can switch in safely, you can come in on a taunt or recover, and jelli is as good as fucked unless it wins the 50/50 predict (and cb pursuit does shitloads to it anyways so if it's not at full health as well as being bold max/max [which is rare because people are idiots and run sdef jelli] it's probably 2hkoed anyways even if it stays in).

I don't think Tyranitar can reliably switch in to Jellicent, because prediction does go both ways. It isn't really 50/50 when you factor in the fact that Jellicent can run more speed (and saying people are idiots who don't use that set is regardless, doesn't mean Keldeo is broken because someone is stupid).

 

[BKC]

if jellicent is being forced to recover it's so low that even if it does end up going for wisp and burning the cbtar switch it's going to be so weak that it's going to get picked it off anyway. the main point here is that while yes, ttar can sometimes get screwed over by jellicent, it's certainly not as unsafe to switch it in (assuming you're relatively smart) as you're making it out to be.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I dunno BKC, it's a pretty bold claim to say Tyranitar beats Jellicent when you don't factor all of this in. I think we can agree that carrying Tyranitar =/= Jellicent gone, but yeah I can see it causing it trouble, but you also forget to mention how Jellicent isn't it's only check / counter. Most of Keldeo's counters can get past Tyranitar (granted, they do bend their backs to get past Tyranitar, i.e running Reflect type Latias, but Tyranitar isn't the end all be all to Keldeo counters).

 

[PDC]

For a lot of defensive teams that run Jellicent, it is their only Keldeo check or counter. In the World Cup semis a CM Keldeo saved the day by smashing Jellicent. Hell, Jellicent is barely a halfway check. It can only beat some exclusive sets, and that's it.

 

[BKC]

i never said tyranitar ends all of keldeo's counters, just jellicent and latias (since keld usually blows past celebi by itself nowadays thanks to ebelt hp bug, if it doesn't run that set ttar can still ruin celebi's day if it's scarfed which is probably more common and better than band right now, since it doesn't have to tank a hit from lati@s and it doesn't have to worry about speed creeping vs jellicent). amoonguss sucks.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

For a lot of defensive teams that run Jellicent, it is their only Keldeo check or counter. In the World Cup semis a CM Keldeo saved the day by smashing Jellicent. Hell, Jellicent is barely a halfway check. It can only beat some exclusive sets, and that's it.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this. Jellicent isn't the only check to Keldeo on defensive teams. Carrying only one check to a top threat is a pretty bad idea in general, what do you expect? It's a top tier threat after all. It's like not carrying two checks to Terrakion and claiming it to be broken just because it beat a team. Top threats require a few checks on every team, but I don't think that's the definition of broken.

There are many Pokemon that fit into defensive teams that counter Keldeo. Celebi, Latias, Ammoungus (granted, is mainly only used to counter Keldeo, but still) and Jellicent check Keldeo very well.

 

[Halcyon.]

The reason people don't run Defensive Jellicent is because it doesn't beat Keldeo at all. CM Keldeo and Specs Keldeo easily beat it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 218-258 (54.09 - 64.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If you run SDef Jellicent, then you beat Keldeo, but Tyranitar destroys it (and standard Jellicent run only 44 speed EVs, which is not enough to outrun BandTar. Any more than that and you're sacrificing precious bulk).

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Honestly, if running a few speed EVs stops you from being beaten by Banded Tyranitar, I think it's worth it.

 

[reyscarface]

this thread:

user 1: celebi latias amoongus and jellicent are keldeo counters!

user 2: no, all of those (except amoongus) can be beaten by keldeo itself with little to no problem and even if keldeo cant by itself, a really little addition to a team (nothing out of the ordinary) will ensure keldeo wins. regarding amoongus: amoongus sucks

user 1: celebi latias amoongus and jellicent are keldeo counters!

srsly?

It's perfectly viable to use Pokemon others have mentioned, such as Amoonguss, Gyarados, Roserade, and Jellicent.

Im looking at you, guy. no, its not. amoongus is unviable, the only fucking reason it sees usage is keldeo. that such a shitty pokemon sees usage should tell you enough. gyarados is 2hkod by keldeo and cant do anything in return but use bounce which lets me switch out??????? roserade is in the amoongus boat, except roserade is 2hkod by +1 secret sword AND hydro pump in rain nice counter there!!! and for jellicent? tyranitar / filler move. or even better, if its a rain team, my thundurus just got a free turn and youre losing something. and thats not just thundurus its plenty of shit. and i already said how keldeo can ko jellicent by himself.

come on

 

[Halcyon.]

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyranitar Crunch vs. 204 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 205-243 (52.29 - 61.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's as defensive as you can get while still out-speeding Tyranitar. But like I said, the reason you don't run a defensive spread on Jellicent is because then Keldeo can 2HKO you. If you choose a SDef spread to beat Keldeo, then Tyranitar definitely beats you (though it does anyway, as seen above).

 

[BKC]

my favorite part is how spdef jellicent literally does nothing outside of take keldeo's hp ghost a little better (still loses to cm!) while also getting smashed by every physical attack out there, which it happens to take more of than spatks it would live without any investment anyway.

even if you speed creep in an attempt to beat cbtar, it still might not be enough and at a certain point even a burned cb crunch is going to beat the shit out of jelli because it doesn't have any bulk left over from all those speed evs.

lmao at roserade and gyarados being keldeo counters

 

[ShootingStarmie]

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyranitar Crunch vs. 204 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 205-243 (52.29 - 61.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's as defensive as you can get while still out-speeding Tyranitar. But like I said, the reason you don't run a defensive spread on Jellicent is because then Keldeo can 2HKO you. If you choose a SDef spread to beat Keldeo, then Tyranitar definitely beats you (though it does anyway, as seen above).

That's actually pretty insane. Fuck.

 

[effyouzion]

Tauros isn't a good example for a variety of reasons, the first being that the RBY metagame is almost entirely different than today's OU outside of the name, you might as well be trying to make a comparison to Hackmons or Little Cup. Secondly, while Tauros has no hard counters (bar Cloyster) there are certainly a variety of Pokemon which can take a hit rather well and weaken it down or even kill it, like Exeggutor and Snorlax. More importantly though, pretty much every use able Pokemon in RBY can combat Tauros in some way or another, even Chansey can cripple with Thunder Wave or KO with Counter.

In the future, avoid making comparisons to early generations, as not only are they treated differently than today, existing before the modern definitions of checks and counters or even Ubers, but in RBY's case, even the basic mechanics are different.

No shit the mechanics are different, but I'm not comparing mechanics. I'm talking about their roles as a cleaner. You said Tauros had a number of pokes that can take a hit and weaken it, and Keldeo is the same. Rotom-W, Celebi, Jellicent, and Jirachi can all take a hit (even specs HP Bug) and severely cripple it. Gyarados can take anything but HP electric, and there are even more niche counters like Amoongus and Slowking, but Keldeo can be countered without resorting to those underused pokes.

I just don't think Keldeo is overpowered. He was the most annoying Poke to me when I first started playing this gen (having not played since gen 3, I used Blissey on every team as my special wall... didn't go over well). But once I got used to it, he's far from the hardest thing to counter. He cleans up better than anybody once those counters are gone, but I don't think that's enough of a reason for a ban.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

We are literally running in circles at this point. That keldeo can get past all its ''counters'' with minimum support and that amoonguss is crap has already been said multiple times. I am really sick of randomly putting a water resistant special wall on my team for the sole purpose of tanking hits from that pony and really sick of being destroyed once that wall is gone. Keldeo influence on this meta is ridiculous, it not just forces you to use something specifically for it but its ability to work so well in any team (bar sun) means you pretty much can never fully prepare for it. It can simply be paired with any pokemon that is able to remove its few ''counters'' and then theres nothing you can do about it. Keldeo is simply ridiculous, flawless, overpowered or whatever word you want to use. You cant beat it with priority, you cant wear it down with stealth rock, your choices for revenging it are ridiculous small and the surprise factor about what set its running is downright absurd. I find it ridiculous that epbelt keldeo with hp bug and icy wind can easily lure in and beat 3 of what are supposed to be its best checks and also find it ridiculous that calm mind+life orb keldeo can easily trash every single one of its checks. Even if after ALL of this you dont believe its ban worth theres no denial that its definitely suspect worth.

 

[Arcticblast]

Considering the fact that a burned CBTar still has a little over 300 Attack, it's really not that insane, Starmie...

And Roserade can check all variants of Keldeo without being solely a Keldeo check, but has difficulty switching in. Calling it a counter is completely wrong.

 

[Shurtugal]

Could the Poll be reworded?

Like: "Yes/No, there is /not/ enough evidence to show that Keldeo is deserving of a suspect test."

The way it's worded now suggest that anyone who feels it deserves a suspect feels that it is a broken, when there are a lot of users undecided. (This would also mean resetting the poll since the answers up to now / if they change are not really valid responses).

As for my thoughts on Keldeo:

Keldeo is brutal vs. offense, I should know. However, I don't get why people over exaggerate Keldeo's bulk and whatnots. Yes, it's pretty good. It can take Breloom's LO Mach and Lucario's Extreme Speed after Rocks, right? But can it take them both? Offense plays pretty fast pace, and most offense doesn't have "clear counters" to OU threats; rather, they use multiple checks and hazard pressure (or the presence of weather) to combat opposing teams, and thus Keldeo only really needs to be checked. Priority users under hazards can do this pretty well, and because Scarf Keldeo is such a late game sweeper, if you can set up before it comes in you can probably smash through it anyway.

Also, the fact that Keldeo is commonly choiced is a Pokemon that can be set up on. Others have mentioned that "you cannot set up on Keldeo," and to you I ask; why? EB Keldeo is usually not used late game whereas Scarf is, specs isn't too threatening to offensive teams so I'm not bringing that up, so if you are facing Scarf Keldeo (the one that can smash offense the most) can indeed be set up on. HP Ice locked Keldeo is pretty easy to set up on (do I really need to name Pokemon that can set up on HP Ice locked Keldeo? I would think that would be pretty simple considering how weak HP ice is) and being locked into Pump / SS respectively opens up a lot of set up opportunities for offensive pokemon respectively (Rak on HP Ice, Dnite on SS or Hydro, Gar on SS, SD Feraligatr, SD Toxicroak, etc. etc.).

While EB can prevent it being set up on (not that you'll usually set up on Keldeo, only that it's pretty viable lategame when you know what Keldeo set your facing and if it happens to be scared it is more than viable), EB Keldeo is also easily outpaced and worn down by hazards (multiple switch outs and the fact that its brought in midgame rather than late) helps beat it.

While Keldeo is a great Pokemon; to me, Keldeo is just like any other top tier threat: you play around it. I've never had much difficulty beating Keldeo with teams where I used DRAGONITE as my ONLY Keldeo check. That's right, the team I used was, on paper, pretty weak to Scarf Keldeo. And yet, I've never had problems with it, because priority and hazards and coming on in choice locked attacks is more than enough to check it. And really, offensive teams can't "counter" pokemon Terrakion, right? Nothing switches into a CB attack, so nothing is truly a safe switch (technically), and yet offensive teams manage. I feel Keldeo is similar in this regard. Offensive teams run checks to beat most of what they have to, so I don't see why people are looking for Keldeo counters when running offense. Maximum HP KyuB is a cool check; pair it up with a Breloom, put it in rain with CM Jirachi and Tornadus, and you've already got a team that's breaking a lot of the metagame while keeping Keldeo pretty moderately checked. Is that too many checks for you? How about opposing Keldeo? They're bulky enough to RK itself, Breloom is bulky enough to live SS from Scarf or EB Keldeo, and you've got Celebi that pretty much counters Keldeo.

Now to some of you, you play stall teams and offensive mumbojumbo means absolute garbage to you, right? Well, for starters, someone calced Keldeo facing and winning against Jellicent, but that calc was pretty poorly ev'd. SpD Jellicent is a pretty safe counter imo, especially since HP Ghost is not doing to much even with SR support, and I'm sure many stall players agree. Sun stall gets Cress, while other stalls get Jellicent, Ammongus, Slowbro (obviously a check since Specs Pump murders, but it's usually partnered with Amo so COME ON folks), Tentacruel, Latias, SpD Jirachi, SpD Celebi, etc. I don't really see how Keldeo can be that threatening to stall, unless your facing the pretty rare Specs Keldeo. Even then, Specs Keldeo relies on rain for Hydro Pump to be that intimidating, and it's HP Ghost arguably still isn't doing enough to derail SpD Jellicent or SpD Ammongus.


Another thing with Celebi; it can LIVE a Hidden Power Bug, which; by default, makes it at least a check to Keldeo in the regard that it can come in and force it out. Also, you all mention TTar trapping Celebi or Scizor pursuit trapping it (or using Acrobatics). I mean WTF, am I the only one running 266 spe Celebi on my Baton Pass set? It's called adjusting to the meta, and you can't risk Wash outpacing you with 265 (common speed tier for Tenta and Skarm) or Scizor with 252 outpacing you either, so I don't see really why people don't run SpD Cele with a bit more speed. Regardless, Celebi can reliably baton pass out from both Scizor and Tyranitar so they only check it imo since you can preserve Celebi long enough for Keldeo.

That's my two cents. Personally, I think it's worthy of at least suspect since it's an awesome Pokemon, but I put no on the Poll because of how Haunter worded it; since I do not think it is ban-worthy and so that outweighed me putting yes since worthy of suspect does not equal ban worthy imo. So some mod please fix that.

My views may be a bit biased due to my experiences both using and playing against Keldeo. By no right is my argument written to swing the side ban or no ban to Keldeo; only to share my expriences. I will not be arguing any of my points so if I do not respond to people quoting my post; it is not because I think you are right, but simply because I am sharing my opinion and opinions can never be changed. I will listen to what you have to say and keep it in my mind so that when I vote on Keldeo, I'll remember anything said. However, I am not arguing since it will be utterly pointless.


Good day! :)

EDIT: Can't Jellicent just WoW CB Tar? I'm sure Pursuit is pretty weak when burned. And any Jellicent outsped by TTar should be running speed evs to outpace it, no? (I don't use Jellicent much, just speculating).

Rey: I don't think (or want) to imply that Keldeo ISN'T bulky; only that it isn't as great as some users claim it to be. Starmie has fighting resist typing and gets recovery in recover and lefties, whereas Keldeo doesn't really run leftovers or get Recover so I digress.

 

[reyscarface]

keldeo isnt bulky? with 0 investment hes more bulky than max hp starmie and starmie is considered "bulky"

 

[haunter]

Could the Poll be reworded?

Like: "Yes/No, there is /not/ enough evidence to show that Keldeo is deserving of a suspect test."

The way it's worded now suggest that anyone who feels it deserves a suspect feels that it is a broken, when there are a lot of users undecided. (This would also mean resetting the poll since the answers up to now / if they change are not really valid responses).

The poll says that people who advocate a suspect test for Keldeo think that there are enough indications that it MAY be broken in the current metagame. No need to reword it.

Also, I invite everyone to tone down a bit. I really appreciate the thoughtful posts some of you are making, but let's try to not exasperate the tones of the discussion. This thread has been pretty good until now.

 

[Beta.]

I think it's completely balanced IMO, strong, yet has many weaknesses and lesser defense to compensate for it.

 

[MikeDawg]

Shurtugal wut are you even talkin about. For the majority of your points they are either previously dismissed or just plain wrong.

Sure, your dnite team can outplay keldeo but give keldeo to an equally skilled player and I'm sure you'll find yourself very hard pressed when that keldeo can either easily revenge dnite or juat run through your team with specs hpump.

If jelli is spdef, ttar can kill it easily.

Bulk was noted up there^

What scarf pokemon isn't setup bait? (Setup ferro/kingdra/etc on scarf palkia) It's there to revenge kill a dangerous threat and then get out (but keldeo gets the added bonus of later game rain scarf sweeps!)

Cress is great if you can keep sun up, especially given how difficult it is for ninetales to switch into common rain offense members like keldeo

Jelli was discussed before. Amoongus can be 2hkod. Slowbro dies to hpump/ ghost (but you already mentioned that... But it doesn't matter since both moongus and bro die to hpump). Tenta is 2hkod. Latias is ttar/scizor bait (or icy wind). Lol rachi is not takin hpumps nor secret swords. Celebi is scizor bait.

I dont understand your little celebi push at all. If you take out bulk investment, celebi is now 2hkod easily by hpump/ghost and 1hkod by hp bug. So the choice is get trapped by tar/scizor and then lose your keldeo check OR just let keldeo 2hko by itself...

 

[Wumbo in Chains]

Now I know I'm not the most experienced player here by any stretch of the means, but I'm going to thrown in my two cents on the issue.

My main idea is, that I don't think that Keldeo needs a suspect test, and even if it does get tested, I don't think it should be banned, although there is a chance that it could be banned.

In using Keldeo, yes I think it is a very good Pokemon, but I don't see it as broken by any stretch of the means. Jellicent is a decent counter to Keldeo, as HP Ghost I believe is a 3 hit KO on Jellicent, even with Specs (I could be wrong on that though, I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to damage calcs). A defensive Celebi can take an HP Bug or Ghost, and then Thunder Wave the Keldeo, rendering it crippled for the match, which in my experience is one of the most effective ways to use Celebi, as a Specially Defensive Tank that can Thunder Wave and Recover off damage. Expert Belt sets are versatile, but rely on prediction to effectively gain damage boosts, while Specs and Scarfed sets become (obviously as any Choiced set does) set-up bait for other Pokes.

Note that I have not used Keldeo in the rain in a long time, nor have I faced a Keldeo in the rain in a while, so this could potentially skew my views slightly, but as it stands I don't think that Keldeo is ban-worthy.

But who knows? Many other people could feel otherwise, and therefore it could be banned into ubers sometime in the near future. We'll just have to wait and see I suppose.

 

[blizzardmaster]

Jellicent is a decent counter to Keldeo, as HP Ghost I believe is a 3 hit KO on Jellicent, even with Specs (I could be wrong on that though, I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to damage calcs).

I ran the damage calcs for you and you are right assuming the special set is used:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 164-194 (40.59 - 48.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

However when using any other set it is a 2HKO if speced:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 240-284 (59.55 - 70.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I did use HP electric for the damage calcs to give it a bit more coverage, but it has similar stats to HP ghost

A defensive Celebi can take an HP Bug or Ghost, and then Thunder Wave the Keldeo, rendering it crippled for the match, which in my experience is one of the most effective ways to use Celebi, as a Specially Defensive Tank that can Thunder Wave and Recover off damage. Expert Belt sets are versatile, but rely on prediction to effectively gain damage boosts, while Specs and Scarfed sets become (obviously as any Choiced set does) set-up bait for other Pokes.

However, a spec Keldeo does have a chance to OHKO the smogon special defensive set if Keldeo is using a modest nature:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 364-432 (90.09 - 106.93%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

A timid nature is a 2HKO:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 336-396 (83.16 - 98.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And the same goes for every other Keldeo set unless you can get 4 calm minds in:
+4 252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 473-559 (117.07 - 138.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are best case scenarios and not always practicle. Well hope this helps XD