Move Knock Off

[farranpoison]

Just realized that Mienshao gets it as an egg move, and with its increased power, anyone think it'd be a decent move for a Choice Scarf set?

Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Jolly
Regenerator/Reckless
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-HJK
-Stone Edge
-U-Turn
-Knock Off

With Knock Off's 97 BP if it hits an item, it finally has an answer to a predicted Ghost switch in. Sure, it loses coverage on Gliscor since it's not running HP Ice, but I think the tradeoff is worth it, considering HP's nerf. Probably. Making one ingame to test if it is any good.

 

[Koindozer]

Just realized that Mienshao gets it as an egg move, and with its increased power, anyone think it'd be a decent move for a Choice Scarf set?

Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Jolly
Regenerator/Reckless
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-HJK
-Stone Edge
-U-Turn
-Knock Off

With Knock Off's 97 BP if it hits an item, it finally has an answer to a predicted Ghost switch in. Sure, it loses coverage on Gliscor since it's not running HP Ice, but I think the tradeoff is worth it, considering HP's nerf. Probably. Making one ingame to test if it is any good.

Well, using knock off on a choice scarf set would mean after the primary attack, you wont be doing much damage. I mean, 65 power without stab is nothing, and so your opponent could grab a free turn if they predicted right.

 

[Lovelace]

Knock Off is probably much better suited to the LO Regenerator set. I don't see Mienshao succeeding as a scarfer anyways as
1. It lacks bulky/typing for taking the ubiqiuitous priority
2. It's grounded so its susceptible to Sticky Web
3. Having to commit to HJK is a bad idea with all new resistors in the form of Aegislash and all the Fairies (ie Togekiss)

That said LO has a few boons as well, namely that a slower meta means that Mienshao's unboosted 105 speed will often be enough and with all the priority around Fake Out might not be a bad option, being able to beat all other forms of priority.

Mienshao @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Fake Out/Poison Jab/Stone Edge/Taunt/HP Ice

 

[Geta92]

I wonder what happens if a pokemon with sheer force uses knock off.
Would you lose the BP boost and the item loss effect, or just one of them?

I know the chances are pretty low, but maybe you get the boost to 97 and the item won't be knocked off.
You would have a 126 BP dark move without any drawbacks and perfect accuracy. Unlikely though.

 

[Grey Knight]

Imo knock off was always a valid move to use on pokemon like escavalier tentacruel or all out deoxys attack forme and other mons that had a lot of space to fit it in , now with this buff more people will notice it and use it witch is good news , one more valid move that will enrich the pokemon metagames ,one less poorly designed and with almost no competitive potential move in the huge deposit of useless moves.

 

[youngjake93]

I wonder what happens if a pokemon with sheer force uses knock off.
Would you lose the BP boost and the item loss effect, or just one of them?

I know the chances are pretty low, but maybe you get the boost to 97 and the item won't be knocked off.
You would have a 126 BP dark move without any drawbacks and perfect accuracy. Unlikely though.

I'm pretty sure knocking the item off is a primary effect so it isn't boosted by sheer force. The same as recoil damage, it's not a secondary chance for something to happen.

 

[Vashimus]

Weavile needs Technician so badly. Makes sense flavor-wise and would just be way helpful.

Then she needs Knock Off to be 60 BP.

Then she needs Force Palm.

And for Ice to get a defensive buff.

If not, she already has Thief and Beat Up. I really wish that Low Sweep "buff" hadn't happened though.

But yeah, Knock Off will likely be the Dark-STAB of choice for Weavile. For SD sets, its power is perfect, and even when hitting a Pokemon who lost their item, it's only 5 less power than Night Slash.

 

[Groombridge]

Azumarrill loves Knock Off. It causes switches galore, and knocking off items is a great way to punish a switch early game.

It also gives it a nice 2HKO on Jellicent in Pokebank OU, doing 70-80% to the 252 HP/252 Def utility set when it takes its item. If Jellicent isn't fully invested in Def, there's even a chance for a OHKO. Azu has to watch for Will-o-Wisp back, but with a bit of speed it can get there first. 84 EVs (Adamant) beats uninvested Jellicent by a point.

Knock Off tends to do around 50-60% to Rotom-W on the switch too, again when it takes an item. Lols all round.

 

[alexwolf]

Knock Off is probably much better suited to the LO Regenerator set. I don't see Mienshao succeeding as a scarfer anyways as
1. It lacks bulky/typing for taking the ubiqiuitous priority
2. It's grounded so its susceptible to Sticky Web
3. Having to commit to HJK is a bad idea with all new resistors in the form of Aegislash and all the Fairies (ie Togekiss)

That said LO has a few boons as well, namely that a slower meta means that Mienshao's unboosted 105 speed will often be enough and with all the priority around Fake Out might not be a bad option, being able to beat all other forms of priority.

Mienshao @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Fake Out/Poison Jab/Stone Edge/Taunt/HP Ice

Never use Fake Out on Mienshao. It is a 40 BP move without STAB, and the worse part is that it gives a free switch to Mienshao's most common switch-ins, Ghost-types. Knock Off and Stone Edge are musts on LO Mienshao, Knock Off for Trevenant, Gourgeist, Aegislash, Gengar, and Jellicent, and Stone Edge for Talonflame, Togekiss, Charizard, and Dragonite. On the last slot you can either use U-turn for momentum and its usefulness against Psychic-types or Hidden Power Ice to OHKO Gliscor and Landorus-T, which otherwise would counter Mienhsao.

Also, Scarf Mienshao is terrible. Ghost-types are everywhere, which means that you can't use your STAB moves to revenge kill the Pokemon you would want to without taking huge risks.

 

[Lovelace]

Never use Fake Out on Mienshao. It is a 40 BP move without STAB, and the worse part is that it gives a free switch to Mienshao's most common switch-ins, Ghost-types. Knock Off and Stone Edge are musts on LO Mienshao, Knock Off for Trevenant, Gourgeist, Aegislash, Gengar, and Jellicent, and Stone Edge for Talonflame, Togekiss, Charizard, and Dragonite. On the last slot you can either use U-turn for momentum and its usefulness against Psychic-types or Hidden Power Ice to OHKO Gliscor and Landorus-T, which otherwise would counter Mienhsao.

Last gen I would have said never to use Fake Out on Mienshao but this gen I'm finding that you often need that bit of chip damage to finish off huge threats. Don't use Fake Out blindly every time you bring Mienshao in, it's meant for those do or die moments when Talonflame is sweeping your team or you need to break that Dragonite's Multiscale before you bring in Mamoswine to Ice Shard. Anyways I don't think Stone Edge is really that important as most of the time you are going to want the item denial from Knock Off and on most of the things SE give you coverage on, HP Ice gives a 4x hit. Also, I'm pretty sure without even calcing that LO HJK will demolish Talonflame after rocks.

Anyways I wouldn't really recommend Mienshao in any case. I'm just saying that if you wanted to use it, LO Regenerator would be your best.

 

[farranpoison]

Thanks for the input on Mienshao guys, it's given me something to think about.

I do want to keep Knock Off on Mienshao, as it really is it's only real option of dealing with Ghosts. And yeah, Choice Scarf Mienshao does seem a bit dumb in OU with all the Ghosts running amok. It makes me sad, but I feel Mienshao will solidly be UU, and not even have that much of a chance in OU anymore. A speed tier of 105 isn't that great anymore with Talonflame ruining the fun.

Regardless, if I am using Mienshao (which I probably will be, curse my favoritism) I'll definitely have SR setters to deal with that damn bird. And LO instead of Scarf. Although Scarf could still be used for the surprise factor... I'll probably stick with a set of HJK/SE/Knock Off/U-Turn.

 

[RowDog]

The new buff to Knock Off is amazing and is going to replace Crunch I should think in a lot of situations. Definitely a winner in my books.

I love to use it on Sableye to further push his annoying disruption to further lengths and paired with a STAB boost and use it over Night Shade.

The Disruptor
Sableye@Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
252 HP/252 SpD/4Def
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Recover

This becomes a real pain in the ass for almost anything now. Burning all physical non-fire-types with a priority Will-O-Wisp. Ruining stallers, walls and set-ups with priority Taunt. Getting rid of all your opponents items with Knock Off, and allows him to even pack a bit of his own punch with the new buff with his STAB. And healing all the damage off with priority Recover. Is there anything that he doesn't screw over? I've even caught the occasional Gliscor with a Burn or Knock Off before his Toxic Orb activates and it just becomes screwed, a thing of beauty :')

The amount of switches this thing causes as well as each Pokemon finds that they aren't really doing much against it allows it to get rid of so many of your opponents items as well, its truly beautiful :').

I know Sableye has got a bit of a debuff with a Fairy-type weakness, perfect typing ruined :'(, but he remains a very good disruptor, and I would argue one of the best users of Knock Off now.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

I'm loving my Knock Off/Whirlwind Mandibuzz. Takes hits like nobody's business (less than 50% from Mega Gengar's Thunderbolt and less than 40% from Rotom-W's Volt Switch), disarms the opposing team, scouts for mega stones and spreads hazard/toxic damage.

 

[Cataclyptic]

Honestly Knock off was always one of my favorite moves, since every pokemon is guaranteed to run an item and getting an item out of the way is a pretty viable strategy: except there were few abusers of it, knock off required prediction and it had low base power,

These new mechanics change everything though, particularly in the prediction department. I can't wait until Pokebank is released to get some abusers~!

On a side note, if tornadus T stays unbanned that would be great for this move, since its the best abuser of knock off imo due to regenerator and access to u turn.

 

[Masttershake]

L

Just realized that Mienshao gets it as an egg move, and with its increased power, anyone think it'd be a decent move for a Choice Scarf set?

Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Jolly
Regenerator/Reckless
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-HJK
-Stone Edge
-U-Turn
-Knock Off

With Knock Off's 97 BP if it hits an item, it finally has an answer to a predicted Ghost switch in. Sure, it loses coverage on Gliscor since it's not running HP Ice, but I think the tradeoff is worth it, considering HP's nerf. Probably. Making one ingame to test if it is any good.

Was going to bring this up since I pretty much only played UU near the end of BW2 and Bulky Ghosts/ Gligar where the bane of the shao's existence. With the new knockoff he finally has a way past them or at the very least crippling them for the rest of the match.

Edit: I would also recommend trying LO Reckless over regenerator as hazards are less common and he really can't most hits.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Ok, so after a few weeks of playing Pokebank, I'm pretty convinced that Knock Off is the new Scald. One of the reasons Scald was so bad was that unless a Pokemon was immune to the move (or could tank it and heal burns), it was almost never completely safe from it. Water is just a good attacking type in general, and being boosted by Rain made it even better. Even if you could tank the hit, you still might suffer from the burn.

Knock Off is pretty similar in that nothing truly switches into it with no repercussions. Seeing as how virtually every Pokemon in existence is going to have an item, the first hit is nearly as powerful as Earthquake, which gives plenty of Dark-types like Weavile and Bisharp the strong Dark STAB they've always wanted. Even if your switch-in can take the hit easily, nothing likes to lose their item. Losing Leftovers can turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs and makes Pokemon that lack reliable recovery that much easier to wear down. Losing a Choice Scarf completely destroys a Pokemon's ability to keep countless sweepers in check. Losing Life Orb or Choice Band/Specs turns potentially fearsome wall breakers and sweepers into much milder and more manageable opponents. As a plus, it gets excellent distribution among 1-5 Gen Pokemon thanks to the BW2 move tutors, and unlike Scald, nothing is immune to Knock Off.

 

[Koindozer]

Last gen I would have said never to use Fake Out on Mienshao but this gen I'm finding that you often need that bit of chip damage to finish off huge threats. Don't use Fake Out blindly every time you bring Mienshao in, it's meant for those do or die moments when Talonflame is sweeping your team or you need to break that Dragonite's Multiscale before you bring in Mamoswine to Ice Shard. Anyways I don't think Stone Edge is really that important as most of the time you are going to want the item denial from Knock Off and on most of the things SE give you coverage on, HP Ice gives a 4x hit. Also, I'm pretty sure without even calcing that LO HJK will demolish Talonflame after rocks.

Anyways I wouldn't really recommend Mienshao in any case. I'm just saying that if you wanted to use it, LO Regenerator would be your best.

Well It's too bad Mienshao has that talonflame as you said. But on the bright side, It's child mienfoo will still be up there in little cup. It gets knock off too, right?

 

[Garchompi]

Ok, so after a few weeks of playing Pokebank, I'm pretty convinced that Knock Off is the new Scald. One of the reasons Scald was so bad was that unless a Pokemon was immune to the move (or could tank it and heal burns), it was almost never completely safe from it. Water is just a good attacking type in general, and being boosted by Rain made it even better. Even if you could tank the hit, you still might suffer from the burn.

Knock Off is pretty similar in that nothing truly switches into it with no repercussions. Seeing as how virtually every Pokemon in existence is going to have an item, the first hit is nearly as powerful as Earthquake, which gives plenty of Dark-types like Weavile and Bisharp the strong Dark STAB they've always wanted. Even if your switch-in can take the hit easily, nothing likes to lose their item. Losing Leftovers can turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs and makes Pokemon that lack reliable recovery that much easier to wear down. Losing a Choice Scarf completely destroys a Pokemon's ability to keep countless sweepers in check. Losing Life Orb or Choice Band/Specs turns potentially fearsome wall breakers and sweepers into much milder and more manageable opponents. As a plus, it gets excellent distribution among 1-5 Gen Pokemon thanks to the BW2 move tutors, and unlike Scald, nothing is immune to Knock Off.

There are things that can safely switch on Knock Off: Mega pokemon. Considering almost every team uses one it's not too hard to absorb it. Lucario in particular will enjoy a free attack boost before mega evolving and the fact it hits Gengar for SE damage is beneficial to the metagame since that thing is OP. Knock Off is good but nowhere near as stupidly good as Scald.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Even then, that's just one Pokemon per team (and that's assuming your opponent is even running a Mega Pokemon, which is not guaranteed). There are also a few Mega Pokemon that wouldn't like switching into Knock Off regardless of the side effect, namely Mega Alakazam, Mega Gengar, and Mega Banette. At any rate, there is certianly a handful of Pokemon that don't mind Knock Off, just like there were several Pokemon with Natural Cure (Starmie, Chansey, Blissey, Celebi, Roserade, Shaymin, etc.), Dry Skin (Toxicroak), Water Absorb (Jellicent, Vaporeon), Storm Drain (Gastrodon), or some other way to heal status (Latias) that didn't mind Scald all that much. The vast majority of the time, though, a Pokemon taking a Knock Off is going to be significantly crippled by the loss of its item. In fact, I'd argue that the loss of an item has the potential to be far more detrimental than a burn simply because the effectiveness of so many sets is tied so closely to the item they're holding. For instance, losing Leftovers might not be as bad since a burn will do more damage anyway, but losing a Choice Scarf can drastically change how your Pokemon functions and render it helpless in checking faster sweepers like it used to.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Knock Off's side effect happens 100% of the time, unlike Scald's, and (as I mentioned earlier) its distribution is far more impressive.

 

[Matrias]

Tentacruel, who sees a lot of spin blockers, loves Knock Off.

I had an excellent game that I won barely thanks to knock off and also the assault vest. My opponents last Pokemon was a Choice Scarf Gengar, locked in Focus Blast. My very hurt Tentacruel, who only had 50ish health left.

Focus Blast does ridiculously little damage when Tentacruel is wearing an assault vest - less than 20 damage! One blast hit and and one missed, and Tentacruel was able to get off a scald and finish him off with a Knock off in order to kill him (I had to use the scald first to keep him stuck in Focus Miss before I could use Knock Off ).

 

[alexwolf]

Mega Venusar and Mega Aggron are the best ways to handle Knock Off users. The strongest notable Knock Off users atm in OU are Crawdaunt, Weavile, Mienshao, Mega Absol, and Bisharp, all of which can be handled by those two, especially Mega Venusaur, which is not weak to any of the STAB or coverage moves of those Pokemon and can hit back all of them hard.

In other news, Choice Band Crawdaunt in rain is ridiculous. Check this:

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 156-184 (44.3 - 52.2%)

252 HP Rotom-W has a ~50% chance to be OHKOed by Crabhammer after Stealth Rock, and physically defensive Rotom-W is always OHKOed by Knock Off after two SR rounds. Not to mention Aqua Jet's ridiculous revenge killing power. Combine Crawdaunt with Mega Aggron, an excellent pivot that can wall most Fire-types (including Talonflame, one of the best ways for offensive teams to deal with Crawdaunt) in rain and provides paralyze and SR support for Crawdaunt, and you have a formidable core in your hands.

 

[Garchompi]

After seeing this move everywhere in the past few days looks like I have to change my previous statement: Knock Off is obnoxious. It's perhaps the cheapest, non-banned move in the game.
Unlike Scald, which was somewhat predictable since only defensive water types really used it, Knock Off is used by offensive and defensive pokemon alike and they're not limited to one type. Conkeldurr, Mienshao, Weavile, Gliscor, Tentacruel, Deoxys, Mew, Azumarill, Donphan , Mamoswine, Ferrothorn, Landorus and Thundurus are just only a handful of pokemon that get it.
One thing that makes Knock Off dangerous is that it not only it forces switches because the opponent will try avoid losing an item on more than one pokemon, but you will know which pokemon is going to be sent in: the one that already lost its item or the opponent's mega pokemon. Needless to say, this can give the user an enormous advantage since no other move with such a large distribution forces switches the way Knock Off does.
Another annoyance is that the impact of losing an item is often not apparently obvious. If your physical sweeper gets burned by Scald you'll most likely use it as death fodder, but losing Lefties on your wall, for example, doesn't make it outright useless until later in the match you realize that a 2HKO could have been a 3HKO. The same thing can be said about your revenge killer losing its Scarf and no longer being able to check what it was meant to and so on.

 

[Martingale]

A 97BP Knock Off from Sawk means that not even the Ghosts and Phychics of NU are going to be standing up to him. Sawk still has Alomomola and Mandibuzz trouble but anything else will have difficulty. Honestly I wouldn't expect to see Sawk in NU this generation.

 

[alexwolf]

Poison Heal Gliscor and Poison Heal Breloom with their Toxic Orbs already activated are also great switch-ins to Knock Off. Poison Heal Breloom gets bonus points for walling one of the biggest pains in the ass atm, Rotom-W, as well as Excadrill (in non PokeBank). While it is hard walled by Trevenant and Gourgeist, it's not like those two can do anything back to it, so Breloom can at least slowly heal back to full life before switching out. Other strong checks such as Talonflame and Aegislash can just be Leech Seeded and worn down with Protect, or put to sleep with Spore if Sleep Clause isn't active. Poison Heal Leech Seed Breloom can even use Rock Tomb instead of Spore now, meaning that switching into it gets even harder for offensive Pokemon.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Never use Fake Out.

Fixed. lol. But Seriously, Fake out is terrible. It's not even worth using on Kanghaskan (which would be like the only Pokemon in all of singles anywhere that I'd even consider it). until they give us Fake Out + Extreme Speed Ursaring

Knock Off's bough is really incredible. It's going to be really interesting to see how it shapes the metagame, and where it will appear. I think physical Landorus might make a return, and Knock Off would be a good option on it. Knock Off is an incredible option for Landorus-T's support/pivot sets for obvious reasons.