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OU Landorus
- Thread starter Halcyon.
- Start date
I feel like it definitely deserves mention in the all out special set because it poops on defensive teams and even some offensive teams late game, but Landorus is better off running full coverage because it doesn't get too many opportunities to sweep with CM. So OO at best IMO.
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Go ahead and put Calm Mind in a separate paragraph under #Moves#, but don't slash it.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
No, I think it should honestly be its own set
Landorus @ Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Evs: 252 spe / 252 spa / 4 hp
Ability: Sheer Force
- Calm mind
- Sludge Wave
- Psychic
- Earth Power
the coverage seems incredibly unconventional, but with sheer force psychic and sludge wave end up being pseudo-STAB moves and all you need is neutral coverage.
You get crap like this with CM lando where resisted unSTAB moves 2hko bulky pokemon, or do huge chunks, even killing frailer mons with a neutral unSTAB hit, that's pretty ridiculous. Hidden powers are not necessary on this set at all. It's not much different from the all out attacker, but the utility in calm mind is that you can punish switches to defensive pokemon, punish recover stalling, and set up, at least somewhat, in the face of weaker special attackers.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 227-269 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
you also tank some pretty hard hits
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 222-263 (69.3 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 200-236 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
needless to say anything vulnerable to earth power gets demolished
Landorus @ Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Evs: 252 spe / 252 spa / 4 hp
Ability: Sheer Force
- Calm mind
- Sludge Wave
- Psychic
- Earth Power
the coverage seems incredibly unconventional, but with sheer force psychic and sludge wave end up being pseudo-STAB moves and all you need is neutral coverage.
You get crap like this with CM lando where resisted unSTAB moves 2hko bulky pokemon, or do huge chunks, even killing frailer mons with a neutral unSTAB hit, that's pretty ridiculous. Hidden powers are not necessary on this set at all. It's not much different from the all out attacker, but the utility in calm mind is that you can punish switches to defensive pokemon, punish recover stalling, and set up, at least somewhat, in the face of weaker special attackers.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 227-269 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
you also tank some pretty hard hits
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 222-263 (69.3 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 200-236 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
needless to say anything vulnerable to earth power gets demolished
Speed EVs allow it too outspeed 252+ base 80s at +0 or as a side effect, +2 Neutral base 90s such as Lucario and Porygon-Z at +2 itself.
Alright I finally got around to revamping this. Just in case you wanted to know exactly what I did, I changed around the AoA set, made Calm Mind the primary setup move on the second set, added Superpower to the Scarf set for Mega Gyarados, and moved SubSD to OO. Still very much open to criticism on specifics (i.e., I'm not sure about whether to have RP and CM be different sets, or whether RP should just be AC).
McMeghan Bloo CrashinBoomBang
Is this better?
McMeghan Bloo CrashinBoomBang
Is this better?
Everything looks good to me. Just a minor thing, I would make Superpower the first slash over Hidden Power Ice. Since being able to deal 75% to Mega Gyarados is more beneficial in the long run. Then change the nature to Jolly. Should be all good after that.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
I think he intended that Jolly should be the first slash and Naive should be the second slash, Halcyon.
Halcyon.
Looks fine, I like the slashes on the first set in particular (although I don't think Focus Blast is /required/ but that would be nitpicking and personal opinion I guess)
If you want to keep the set order like that (All-Out Attacker -> Boosting Sweeper) then I'd suggest making the Timid 252 Speed spread the standard for the second set as well; I (and the people I discussed this with) honestly believe that speed is too important in this metagame for stuff such as Charizard, Jolly Excadrill etc that you really want to outspeed. It's not like you'll get to use Rock Polish every game or save Landorus for the lategame only, either. I'd be fine with the Modest spread with bulk being mentioned in the set description for more power, though. Make sure to emphasize how differently Calm Mind and Rock Polish play as well.
Looks really good overall, good job on improving it by so much!
discussed with gr8astard Bloo and McMeghan
EDIT: Oh I forgot, make sure to mention Knock Off somewhere, even if it's in OO only, it's a fantastic move and makes many things much easier to kill or outright kills them (Chansey, Latios etc)
Looks fine, I like the slashes on the first set in particular (although I don't think Focus Blast is /required/ but that would be nitpicking and personal opinion I guess)
If you want to keep the set order like that (All-Out Attacker -> Boosting Sweeper) then I'd suggest making the Timid 252 Speed spread the standard for the second set as well; I (and the people I discussed this with) honestly believe that speed is too important in this metagame for stuff such as Charizard, Jolly Excadrill etc that you really want to outspeed. It's not like you'll get to use Rock Polish every game or save Landorus for the lategame only, either. I'd be fine with the Modest spread with bulk being mentioned in the set description for more power, though. Make sure to emphasize how differently Calm Mind and Rock Polish play as well.
Looks really good overall, good job on improving it by so much!
discussed with gr8astard Bloo and McMeghan
EDIT: Oh I forgot, make sure to mention Knock Off somewhere, even if it's in OO only, it's a fantastic move and makes many things much easier to kill or outright kills them (Chansey, Latios etc)
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If using rock slide or U-turn on the sheer force sets, shouldn't naive or hasty be the preferred nature?
Right now the set suggests timid with rock slide and no attack investment. I haven't done the calcs, so is sheer force + life orb rock slide enough to threaten Charizard Y and Talonflame with an attack reducing nature?
Right now the set suggests timid with rock slide and no attack investment. I haven't done the calcs, so is sheer force + life orb rock slide enough to threaten Charizard Y and Talonflame with an attack reducing nature?
Can you actually make EPower / Psychic / Sludge Wave the mandatory combo of moves? Focus Blast has a shitty miss chance, and doesn't really...do that much (besides let you break through Skarm). There's merit to it on CM because +1 actually 2HKOes Chansey, but on the standard all-out attacker/SR set, there isn't much purpose to it. Meanwhile Sludge Wave provides really useful coverage in general, especially on stuff like the Latis on the switch-in. It's generally a very safe move to spam and has a ton of use in KOing Clefable as well. I really wouldn't forgo it unless I'm running CM.
Last slot should be Focus Blast / SR / U-turn IMO. Focus Blast is good for coverage, SR for obvious hazard, and U-turn bones stuff like the Latis as they switch in, and generally allows you to get good momentum. It's especially useful in Lando Keld Tar cores, which are becoming increasingly more common, enabling especially Keldeo, as well as Tar, to get in much more easily. It's generally a great move that needs to be slashed. Rock Slide doesn't really do anything besides hit Zard Y and incoming Talonflame, which Sludge Wave is more than fine against -- it can be useful, but not slash-worthy useful. It is worth a 'Moves' mention at best. The set should be called 'Special Attacker' btw, as it isn't exactly 'All-Out' with the SR slash and all.
Also, Modest should really be removed from the first set. The Speed against stuff like Jolly Exca, Timid Manaphy, Timid Zard Y, Hasty Exca, and Jolly Zard X are way too big just not to run Timid. The power boost is nice, but the Speed drop just isn't a practical sacrifice in this metagame.
Furthermore, I was talking on IRC, and RP and CM should really be separated. Firstly, they play differently -- CM tends to break down defensive cores and put large dents in teams, while RP cleans against already heavily weakened teams. As a side note, RP is also a lot worse than CM...it should probably be the last set. Basically, they fulfill very different roles that belong in separate sets.
Finally, we agreed as a QC a while ago that Gravity should get a main set. Just a moveset like CM, +Gravity -CM. Removing Ground immunities from things makes Lando-I run through them so well, it's ridiculous. The set is crazy, and should get a main set.
Last slot should be Focus Blast / SR / U-turn IMO. Focus Blast is good for coverage, SR for obvious hazard, and U-turn bones stuff like the Latis as they switch in, and generally allows you to get good momentum. It's especially useful in Lando Keld Tar cores, which are becoming increasingly more common, enabling especially Keldeo, as well as Tar, to get in much more easily. It's generally a great move that needs to be slashed. Rock Slide doesn't really do anything besides hit Zard Y and incoming Talonflame, which Sludge Wave is more than fine against -- it can be useful, but not slash-worthy useful. It is worth a 'Moves' mention at best. The set should be called 'Special Attacker' btw, as it isn't exactly 'All-Out' with the SR slash and all.
Also, Modest should really be removed from the first set. The Speed against stuff like Jolly Exca, Timid Manaphy, Timid Zard Y, Hasty Exca, and Jolly Zard X are way too big just not to run Timid. The power boost is nice, but the Speed drop just isn't a practical sacrifice in this metagame.
Furthermore, I was talking on IRC, and RP and CM should really be separated. Firstly, they play differently -- CM tends to break down defensive cores and put large dents in teams, while RP cleans against already heavily weakened teams. As a side note, RP is also a lot worse than CM...it should probably be the last set. Basically, they fulfill very different roles that belong in separate sets.
Finally, we agreed as a QC a while ago that Gravity should get a main set. Just a moveset like CM, +Gravity -CM. Removing Ground immunities from things makes Lando-I run through them so well, it's ridiculous. The set is crazy, and should get a main set.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
why exactly? Its weaker on 2X targets than any other move and Lando-T / Gliscor are 2HKO'd by psychic
I'm having a really hard time understanding the merit of running Gravity on Landorus. Sure, it's a cool move that catches things off guard and can potentially score you a sweep when a bunch of Flying-types are around or something, but why main set worthy? Like, basically everything that Landorus wants to hit with Gravity+Earth Power are already 2HKOed by Psychic, such as Rotom-W, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and even opposing Landorus, while Skarmory is OHKOed by Focus Blast. I mean maybe if beating Zapdos 1v1 is THAT important, but isn't that what teammates are for? I don't know maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see why you would ever give up valuable coverage to surprise a few Flying-types here or there. Sludge Wave is extremely useful for Unaware Clefable and keeping Latias and Latios from just mindlessly switching into Landorus. Besides, if the opponent is using Latios or Latias as there switch into Landorus, they're going to go right into it immediately unless they're dumb, so basically you just wasted a turn setting up Gravity. The only instance you can really beat the Lati twins is if you managed to get a CM boost AND set up Gravity, but again, your opponent has to be a fool to do something like that. Seriously the only things I can really think of that Gravity can surprise and aren't 2HKOed by another coverage move, is Mega Charizard Y and Zapdos, but Zapdos is complete set up fodder for CM unless it carries HP Ice, which wont kill it anyway, and Mega Charizard Y is going to take a huge chunk from a +1 Psychic anyway, and Fire Blast wont kill after a boost too.
So all in all, Gravity definitely deserves a mention in the moves section, but its own set? Nah I don't think so. It has very little merits over running a coverage move, and many of the Pokemon that you want to target with Gravity are already 2HKOed by its coverage moves. So like what am I missing here ?_?
Nvm I'm stupid, I completely zoned out on that.
Yeah I'm sorry but I'm not making Gravity a main set. I have never seen anyone use it, I don't see what it does that you can't already achieve with a coverage move, and it just doesn't make any practical sense on landorus, whose best switch-ins (Lati@s), already outspeed it anyway. Gravity doesn't give enough utility to warrant a main set. Everything else you said works for me.
Yeah, I've used Gravity before on it and it's not as good as it is in theory. Oftentimes you wish that you just had the coverage move at your disposal, as you might not even get the opportunity to use and take advantage of Gravity. That turns me off about it. It's fine to stay in OO imo.
Just something I noticed, the Setup Sweeper set has no Speed Evs listed.