Metagame Last Will

I think nerfing Last Wills is the obvious option. First, make moves follow their normal rules. Laxpras is stating the obvious, but it needs to be said. No more launching Rocks or Mementos when you're under Taunt. Certainly you shouldn't get your move if you're asleep. If that leads to Explosion spam, then option 2 can also be enacted, if that's to 1 or 2 or however many we feel is the limit to a balanced metagame.

Leaving it in its current state is pretty clearly not an option, yes.
I gotta echo the sentiment of slowing the sawsbuck down on calling for nerfs and bans. Maybe Explosions are a part of the metagame's character.

Also, folls, this is definitely the time to consider accuracy-lowering moves. Accuracy *does* apply to Last Will moves. Yes, Smogon hates accuracy stuff with a burning passion, but if you've played any DnD, you'll know exactly how useful it is to be able to go from having to roll a 20 to just having to roll high on a d4 twice in a row.

I'm having good luck adding Mud Slap or Flash to a pokemon with Protect or Substitute and some passive damage.
Not to be snide, but if the metagame becomes shitty with Explosion spam but it's kept because it's "part of the metagame's character" then people won't want to play and the metagame will die a very quick death. It's happened before.
 
U haven't faced this one yet I guess
252+ Atk Choice Band Galvanize Golem-Alola Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross-Mega: 411-484 (112.9 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Anyway the point is that Explosion almost always results in a kill it's a pseudo Destiny Bond that doesn't need any predict
Edit: 2MN said exactly what I wanted
Metagross laughs about standard (and even Refrigerate) Explosions; but Golem can safely be killed by any ground-type.

Edit: Rgarding Schpoonman's post, frozen mons also should be unable to make their Last Wills, unless they thawed regularly (for example because they had Scald as their Last Will).
 
Had a strange bug during a battle today. My opponent had an Impostor Ditto, it transformed into my mon but then it said it had no moves and it was forced to struggle. I had 4 moves; he had Transform on his Ditto. His last will still worked, but I wonder what's going on. Sadly I don't have the replay saved.
 
since everyone pretty much uses metagross, sableye and mawile heres another mega option (also has a good match vs sableye and decent vs gross):


Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

Using a magic bounce suicide lead is good in this meta because if you both die at the same time (which is very common..) your magic bounce stays up until both of you drop, often force-setting last willed hazards to get bounced back onto their own side. You dont really need a speed boosting nature since sucker punch will be enough to cause a one-two ko on most things faster than you that might be holding sashes.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lastwill-570977950

After having fun with stall in this meta I think that another decent option is a Mimikyu/Clefable/Alakazam triple sash strategy. You can take a couple of hits from most things and usually lead to a good ko trade. What they need is stallbreakers like golem-alola to burst through stall cores, since they trade favourably with a lot of other things.
 
>When you've only now realized your meta is the metagame of the month

Okay but I feel that I should talk about some of the problems this metagame has and what I personally think about them.

First off there are a lot of complaints that the metagame itself is mainly just, "Click nuke x2 and win." and while that is true is also sort of the original concept of this. So how do I balance it per say? Well there are a couple routes you could take and I think I'll talk about each one specifically. But before I do that I still want to keep the original premise of being able to use that last move to your utmost advantage.

Route 1: Nerfing Last Will's
Now this would make a lot of logical sense, if something is on the brink of death you wouldn't expect to pull out some mary sue type of bullshit move on you. So this route seems plausible. There is only a few problems. 1) how far do we go to nerf it? 50%, 75%, etc. I feel if you nerfed it to much the only thing you'd end up with a metagame where every Pokemon essentially has aftermath. Maybe you guys could come up with a nice benchmark for a nerfed move but I'm kind of clueless right now. The 2'nd issue with nerfing the Last Will would that even if we did nerf it, the metagame would still be using relatively frail attackers. So most of the time it would still be trade offs but to a lesser extent. This second point could even be proven false and move the metagame to a more bulky offense metagame.

Route 2: Banning / Putting a Clause on these OP moves
The answer most people would expect is, "Why not ban x move." Well there are a couple reasons. First off its sloppy I feel because it keeps a certain Pokemon playable but more importantly it ruins the concept of the metagame to a degree in concept everyone wants to use these broken moves and it sheds a new light on these moves which aren't seen in standard competitive play. Although I would be more of a fan of the latter option and putting a clause on Explosion, V-Create (because it'd be unfair to every other Pokemon if Victini could just break this rule essentially letting you have the clause limit +1), and Hyper Beam and friends. This way you still have your broken moves but you have to play just a bit more carefully around them. Tl;dr I am against banning these moves but putting a clause on them I can get behind.

Route 3: Leaving the metagame in its current state
I'm only going to talk about this briefly since its not an option I'd want to take because I want this metagame to be fun. Basically keeping it the same means that you really have to counter prep for the opponent but like I said, people don't enjoy and thus won't want to play this metagame.

Anyways it would be nice if you guys talked about this a little bit so I can come back later (with a potential council) and make a final decision on what to do. One last time thanks for voting for Last Will, its great to see that I've actually done something right for once.
Ok, so I'll give my thoughts about this based on my previous experience, because I don't want this meta to be ruined

Option 1: I strongly disagree with option 1, because of two reasons.

1. It makes the meta more complex. As a former council of the meta called Linked, this meta has a similarity but it's a "less extreme" version of it. One thing that I learned from managing that meta is, making percentage nerfs would makes the meta unnecessarily more complex and that is strongly discouraged. It'd have issues like "what about seismic toss damage, fling, gyro ball, etc." So please... don't.

2. One thing that makes this meta appealing is, it gives you a purpose to use those rarely used moves. This goes for Hyper Beam variants, Flail/Reversal, Trick Room (yes, Trick Room is a gimmick in standard I'm sure you know it), Healing Wish (this too, is rarely seen). Yes, nerfing the percentage would not affect the status move, but most of the appeals came from damaging moves. Doing that will make those moves back to be unusable and make the meta less appealing, thus making people don't want to play.

The second reason may be biased in my part but please consider the first reason.

As for me, I think making a Clause is better. Do something like, "Last move clause: No more than 1 of the same move in last moveslot." I see the issue is Explosion in 3-4 teams right? Then limit it to 1.
 
I see no problem with keeping the meta as it is, and I definitely do not want to see last wills nerfed. For me, the fun of this meta is figuring out how to do better than a 1-for-1 trade, and nerfing last wills would just make that easier and thus less fun. That said, I am not opposed to a clause like the one Why Nerdy suggested:
Last move clause: No more than 1 of the same move in last moveslot.
That still allows you to have six last will nukes if you want, but forces you to be a bit more creative in which nukes you use.
 
How do charge moves work? Will Kyu-B get off a Freeze Shock on death if its the last slot, or will you just charge the 1 turn and die?
It just charges and dies (and, at least most of the time, that's the intended behavior). Here's a replay to prove it:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lastwill-571027994

But I think there's actually a bug here: the Kyurem that died was holding a Power Herb, which should have let it get a Freeze Shock off successfully as its Last Will, but for some reason it didn't use it.
 
It just charges and dies (and, at least most of the time, that's the intended behavior). Here's a replay to prove it:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lastwill-571027994

But I think there's actually a bug here: the Kyurem that died was holding a Power Herb, which should have let it get a Freeze Shock off successfully as its Last Will, but for some reason it didn't use it.
Ok, thanks. I wish it used the full move D:
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Recycle is not banned and I don't see why it should be.
Ok, so I'll give my thoughts about this based on my previous experience, because I don't want this meta to be ruined

Option 1: I strongly disagree with option 1, because of two reasons.

1. It makes the meta more complex. As a former council of the meta called Linked, this meta has a similarity but it's a "less extreme" version of it. One thing that I learned from managing that meta is, making percentage nerfs would makes the meta unnecessarily more complex and that is strongly discouraged. It'd have issues like "what about seismic toss damage, fling, gyro ball, etc." So please... don't.

2. One thing that makes this meta appealing is, it gives you a purpose to use those rarely used moves. This goes for Hyper Beam variants, Flail/Reversal, Trick Room (yes, Trick Room is a gimmick in standard I'm sure you know it), Healing Wish (this too, is rarely seen). Yes, nerfing the percentage would not affect the status move, but most of the appeals came from damaging moves. Doing that will make those moves back to be unusable and make the meta less appealing, thus making people don't want to play.

The second reason may be biased in my part but please consider the first reason.

As for me, I think making a Clause is better. Do something like, "Last move clause: No more than 1 of the same move in last moveslot." I see the issue is Explosion in 3-4 teams right? Then limit it to 1.
It slipped passed my mind that that would be complicated. I'm also highly in favor of the clause you talked about so I'll give it the day to think about. Maybe i put too much into trying to make the metagame "healthier" but removed the original intention of the metagame.
 
If you are gunna make changes I would advise to give people MORE options when facing last wills rather than just nerfing last wills. for instance last wills right now go through absolutely everything, so you cant protect against them, cant taunt them, or bounce them off in any other kind of way. You cant finish a mon off with u-turn then switch into something to take the hit, or trick something a scarf to lock them into a different move. if any limitation could be put onto last wills, i'd make it so they are affected by movelock (choiced items dont let you use a move as last will unless youre locked into it, taunt prevents status last wills, av prevents status last wills, etc) and also occur maybe right at the end of the turn, so you can pivot around them. and let people use protect against them too maybe, although this one is minor. idk just some ideas
 
I think nerfing Last Wills is the obvious option. First, make moves follow their normal rules. Laxpras is stating the obvious, but it needs to be said. No more launching Rocks or Mementos when you're under Taunt. Certainly you shouldn't get your move if you're asleep. If that leads to Explosion spam, then option 2 can also be enacted, if that's to 1 or 2 or however many we feel is the limit to a balanced metagame.

Leaving it in its current state is pretty clearly not an option, yes.

Not to be snide, but if the metagame becomes shitty with Explosion spam but it's kept because it's "part of the metagame's character" then people won't want to play and the metagame will die a very quick death. It's happened before.
...Is that really not a risk worth taking? I mean, what's the actual point of an Other Meta if its just "OU with a little more X"?

Why not enjoy a drastic change in teambuilding around avoiding Last Will nukes? Like someone mentioned before- Volt/turn and let another pokemon eat the nuke. Use protects and subs and more residual damage. Run a pokemon with Damp or Sturdy.

Yeah, some people may ragequit over explosions, but other folks could just as easily lose interest in an Other Meta that is insufficiently different from OU.

This is not to say that OMs shouldn't get tweaks, but come on, people are making rather dramatic calls for policy change in the first couple of days of play. You're quite literally threatening the metagame with "A very quick death" on day three, instead of taking a bit of time to actually prove there is no way to play around it.

Maybe I'm crazy, maybe I don't "Get" Smogon, but to me, I'd rather take a little longer to make fewer, more concise policies based on actual data than just jump the gun a coupleof days in.

And this is not to mention the number of crashes and bugs I've been seeing in this meta. I'd rather those kinks get some love before anything else. Once everything works per concept, it'd be a better time to make judgement calls.
 
the Kyurem that died was holding a Power Herb, which should have let it get a Freeze Shock off successfully as its Last Will, but for some reason it didn't use it.
That's because items (in particular, Berry Juice) don't work either once you faint. The exception is Gems, because you need to be able to use them with Self-Destruct and Explosion.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
New Last Will Change
Last Will's are only able to be activated if the Pokemon could normally perform the move, e.g. cannot use support moves under the influence of Taunt, or any other move when inflicted Sleep, Freeze, or fully paralyzed. If they can't perform there Last Will they will use Struggle instead.

Reason: A lot of people were complaining about the bs of bypassing any rule and I originally intended for this to be added anyways but I guess I should've been more clear with that.

New Clause
Your team may not have more than 2 of any of these moves: Hydro Cannon, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, V-Create, Explosion.

Reason: In an attempt to make the metagame much more enjoyable I am limiting the amount of "broken" moves you can have per team to 2.
 
New Last Will Change
Last Will's are only able to be activated if the Pokemon could normally perform the move, e.g. cannot use support moves under the influence of Taunt, or any other move when inflicted Sleep, Freeze, or fully paralyzed. If they can't perform there Last Will they will use Struggle instead.
What about Choice Band/Scarf/Specs? And does Protect block Last Wills now?
 
That's contradictory with "Last Will's are only able to be activated if the Pokemon could normally perform the move": if you let yourself get choice locked into a move in a regular battle, then someone uses Magic Room or Embargo afterwards, you'll be able to select other moves but those moves will fail; likewise if a Choiced Oricorio tries to dance on any move that isn't a copy of the same move it's locked into, the dance will fail. This is a new mechanic in G7.
 
Theorymonning, I don't know if people run this or not, but this set could be good here.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Speed
Ability: Own Tempo
Timid Nature
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler
- Spore

Definitely not the best thing out there, but Last Will Spore could work as a way to help setup sweepers in the back get free boosts or make trapping with Dugtrio a bit easier. I wouldn't think Breloom would do well since it won't be able to take any Last Will attacking moves, and all other Spore users bar Amoonguss are irrelevant.
 
That's contradictory with "Last Will's are only able to be activated if the Pokemon could normally perform the move": if you let yourself get choice locked into a move in a regular battle, then someone uses Magic Room or Embargo afterwards, you'll be able to select other moves but those moves will fail; likewise if a Choiced Oricorio tries to dance on any move that isn't a copy of the same move it's locked into, the dance will fail. This is a new mechanic in G7.
This is a bug and not a mechanic, and I doubt that such bugs will be implemented intentionally for Last Will.
 
What do you think about Entrainment Truant Durant? Outside of trolling people, is Entrainment Truant Durant + Protect Hone Claws Dugtrio an acceptable core or complete gimmick garbage? Entrainment is in the last slot, of course
 
What do you think about Entrainment Truant Durant? Outside of trolling people, is Entrainment Truant Durant + Protect Hone Claws Dugtrio an acceptable core or complete gimmick garbage? Entrainment is in the last slot, of course
imo garbage because dugtrio doesnt do anything but get a return kill, it doesnt get a chance to sweep due to the nature of the metagame and also youre crippling your own durant and granting your opponent free turns to put down hazards :T i played against this core before and the minute i saw durant i knew i had no intention of ohkoing it because it would give me free turns throughout the game. in general i feel dugtrio is quite weak in this metagame, because often even with sash it doesnt trade favourably due to its incapability to ohko. plus lots more ghosts to counteract explosions, means less trapping opportunities
 
What do you think about Entrainment Truant Durant? Outside of trolling people, is Entrainment Truant Durant + Protect Hone Claws Dugtrio an acceptable core or complete gimmick garbage? Entrainment is in the last slot, of course
I've tried it and it's mostly garbage, because you will probably be killed by the last will of the mon that is trapped and/or the mon that comes in next, while you sacrificed your durant and lost your dugtrio.