LC CCAT--I have to Axew a question (FINISHED)

[Tomahawk]

1) Sunny Day > Return on Ponyta. I believe with this, we will be more easily able to handle Drilbur.

Well blarajan, this is what I was replying to. I suppose if you use Sunny Day Drilbur can't attempt to stop a Ponyta, but I don't think using Sunny Day on Ponyta lets you handle Drilbur in any way. You still need a good Drilbur counter, but I suppose if the whole team has been put together and Drilbur still might seem a little troublesome Sunny Day could be used over Return.

Also, now that you mentioned the latter you are correct. Really only Houndoor takes more from Return than sun-boosted Flare Blitz (though sun will not always be up, rarely even, and Return lacks recoil which gives it some advantages).

Anyways, the following might be useful on this team:

Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Def / 236 SpD
Bold nature
- Spikes
- Recover
- Acid Armor
- Hidden Power Flying / Bug Buzz

Does a good job at countering Scraggy, with resistances to Hi Jump Kick / Drain Punch, neutrality to Crunch, good Defense, and Acid Armor which boosts faster than Dragon Dance and as such prevents Scraggy from beating it. Shelmet also has Spikes to support which can make Axew and Ponyta a lot more dangerous.

 

[Ray Jay]

I'm a little confused as to why people are so adamant we have Drilbur problems. Lileep is arguably one of the best counters to sand teams in general, especially since our spread (mine was statistically amiss in some points, I say we should indeed use blarajan's EV spread) makes us able to switch into Drilbur. I think if we do something like to handle Scraggy (who is inarguably the bigger threat atm) such as Mienfoo or Timburr or something really bulky like that with offensive presence then another Drilbur "check" will come naturally (keep in mind at the moment, the only Pokemon Drilbur's OK with switching in on is Axew, which is admittedly pretty risky). Timburr or Mienfoo can also both use Payback to handle Missy as well. Of course, I don't want this to become a Ray Jay team, so what do you guys think?

 

[Jansports]

I agree that lileep is arguably the best of the best for putting a check to sand teams, but less specifically Drillbur. It isn't as if Lileep can switch into drillbur and stop his sweeping. And Scraggy is still a huge threat (I should say strong fighting types in general are looking problematic do to our current coverage and typings)

The few strong Flying types might still pose some threat, even with HP rock Lileep is looking to be stretched thin as a pivot/rocker/check for various mons.

As the team is developing is would seem really natural to bring in a bulky water or utility water to complete the FWG core.

I'm not sure if it's time yet to begin nominations again, but I've been considering Staryu, Mienfoo, Croagunk. Both Mienfoo and Croagunk offer strong bulky options for really contending with Drillbur and Scraggy, Mienfoo having the wonderful regenerator and Croagunk offering Priority. Each has merrits, and with the current speed tiers the team falls into I lean towards Croagunk as both a check to threats and reliable revenge killer. Staryu is the Water type I feel would complete the core best, offering a strong stab, reliable recover, toxic absorbtion and the potential for Icebeam/Bolt coverage would help round out the teams offensive pressence (notably the rather fast Staryu outspeeds important fliers)

 

[comatthew6]

I'm a little confused as to why people are so adamant we have Drilbur problems. Lileep is arguably one of the best counters to sand teams in general, especially since our spread (mine was statistically amiss in some points, I say we should indeed use blarajan's EV spread) makes us able to switch into Drilbur. I think if we do something like to handle Scraggy (who is inarguably the bigger threat atm) such as Mienfoo or Timburr or something really bulky like that with offensive presence then another Drilbur "check" will come naturally (keep in mind at the moment, the only Pokemon Drilbur's OK with switching in on is Axew, which is admittedly pretty risky). Timburr or Mienfoo can also both use Payback to handle Missy as well. Of course, I don't want this to become a Ray Jay team, so what do you guys think?

YES YES YES I AGREE COMPLETELY.

Now, because Scraggy can still do shit to this team (as I pointed out argghh), we need to be able to have a shut-down counter who will be able to handle it time and time again. That Pokemon'd be Mienfoo.

Mienfoo (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 156 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
- Payback / Knock Off
- U-turn
- Drain Punch

This set gives us a great chance to take out Scraggy. Being able to survive Hi Jump Kick and being able to heal with Drain Punch makes Mienfoo a boss, and being able to simply KO Larvesta with Stone Edge prevents it from simply switching in. Also, with U-turn and Regenerator, it can switch in multiple times. Payback, despite being nerfed, is still a great option to use to beat Ghost-types, though Knock Off might have more utility outside of that. It also gives this team momentum; something that this team might lack without Mienfoo.

 

[blarajan]

How do I make it more clear that we're not nominating right now...?

WE ARE NOT NOMINATING RIGHT NOW

Does anyone else have anymore thoughts on the current status of the CCAT?

 

[Ray Jay]

I think we're just about ready to start the future nominating process, my EV spread was flawed and needs to be changed to blara's and Sunny Day is almost assumed at this point. I think we have a solid core and we should get ready to start nominating teammates.

Summary of the above posts:

The ideal next Pokemon is able to handle:
-Scraggy
-Drilbur to an extent, maybe not be a switch in but certainly a check
-Timburr
-Sponge hits from Murkrow if Lileep gets hurt
-Sponge hits from Fighting-types if Ponyta gets hurt

Obviously no one can do everything up there, but some Pokes can get close. What do you guys think?

 

[blarajan]

Let the nomination commence! Keep in mind, as the sets previously suggested occurred before I wanted nominations, I am not counting them.

Please post your sets now and really fucking justify them with actual sentences and reasoning or I will have Ray Jay lynch you.

 

[spuds4ever]

That's a bit uncalled for Blara :S

Tomahawk's suggestion is very good and will be tough to top. Anyways, here's my (proper) suggestion:

Vullaby @eviolite
EVs: 196 HP, 236 def, 76 sp. def, Impish
Overcoat
-Brave Bird
-Roost
-Taunt
-U-turn

Vullaby, while not having a fighting resistance, is still one of the sturdiest fighting type switch-ins in the tier, with STAB brave bird threatening a OHKO on nearly every fighting type around. Roost is very useful instant recovery and taunt gives us a dangerous weapon against stall. U-turn probably looks a bit odd in the last slot, but as vullaby forces a lot of switches due to its insane bulk, it can create a safe switch in for axew, which is very effective seeing as vullaby commonly baits things like bulkychou which axew loves to set up on. Alternatively, whirlwind can be used here if given hazard support.

Stops scraggy, most murkrow, timburr, and mienfoo, checks drilbur, and gives stall a hard time.

 

[Tomahawk]

Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Def / 236 SpD
Bold nature
- Spikes
- Recover
- Acid Armor
- Hidden Power Flying / Bug Buzz

Does a good job at countering Scraggy, with resistances to Hi Jump Kick / Drain Punch, neutrality to Crunch, good Defense, and Acid Armor which boosts faster than Dragon Dance and as such prevents Scraggy from beating it. Shelmet also takes on other Fighting-types such as Timbur and Mienfoo which relieves Ponyta of some pressure. Shelmet also has Spikes to support which can make Axew and Ponyta a lot more dangerous.

 

[AlphaJolt]

[PIMG]109[/PIMG]
Koffing @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs:196 HP / 76 Def / 236 SpD
Nature: Bold
-Sludge Bomb/Fire Blast
-Clear Smog
-Will-o-Wisp
-Pain Split

Koffing walls Scraggy, Drillbur, Timburr, and doesn't mind taking random hits from physical attacks. It only has one weakness, which is normally a special attack anyway. It can burn any physical attacker and heal up with Pain Split. Koffing is also not shown enough love, and it does fantastic at its job of walling half the metagame.
edit: that better?

 

[Trakyan]

I think clear smog should be used on the set, otherwise scraggy just sets up and so does other stuff, good overall though

 

[blarajan]

I dunno how that walls Scraggy or Timburr at all, AJ. Both set up and Drain Punch with no fear. Scraggy can also Zen Headbutt.

 

[comatthew6]

Croagunk (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 136 HP / 108 Atk / 116 Def / 28 SAtk / 116 SDef
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Ball
- Rock Slide
- Vacuum Wave

Seeing as how Timburr is a big threat as well as Scraggy, I'm foregoing my decision to nominate Mienfoo and instead nominate Croagunk. Its typing allows it to resist common Fighting-type attacks and be able to heal itself via Drain Punch. Shadow Ball gives it a special attack to offset the Bulk Ups Timburr might try to pull and leaves it with some utility should Misdreavus try to burn it with Will-O-Wisp. It might lose a bit of utility because Sucker Punch isn't on here, but Vacuum Wave makes it a more competent revenge killer if I do say so myself. This think can sponge Fighting-type strikes all day long, but while it cannot in any way stop Murkrow, Rock Slide does give it that surprise factor if Murkrow or Larvesta is foolish to switch in on an expected Drain Punch.

EDIT: But ZHB Scraggy will beat this thing.

 

[PoJ]

I dunno how that walls Scraggy or Timburr at all, AJ. Both set up and Drain Punch with no fear. Scraggy can also Zen Headbutt.

I've used Koffing to deal with Scraggy and Timburr before but you basically need Clear Smog if you want to check them. Scraggy is a little harder to deal with because some run ZHB, but I don't think it can 2HKO. Switch in on the DD and Clear Smog next turn. Then I usually proceed to Pain Split if its health is high, or WoW it and hope they get unlucky with shed skin, which does actually happen sometimes. Then just keep hitting with Sludge Bomb. Although, that usually ends in Koffing going down along with Scraggy which sucks. A switch somewhere in there would probably be better :p

 

[blarajan]

I'm keeping nominations open for a bit more as we need more noms if we want this to be a fun vote!

edit: oh yeah I had a nom from Chieliee that he PMed me...

Timburr (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Guts
EVs: 196 Atk / 236 SDef / 76 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SpA)
- Bulk Up
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Payback

I'm nominating Timburr, because it provides a solid counter to Scraggy. It also checks Eviolite Drilbur. (Not LO, but that'll burn itself down really quick, especially after one Mach Punch), and all versions of Nasty Plot Misdreavus, while maintaining offensive presence on the team. Timburr used to be uncommon, but it's recently proven how deadly it can be in the hands of a good player. It's also a good status absorber, something our team really wants

The spread/nature i opted for is specifically made to check NP Missy. If we add another counter to that later on, we can change it to the standard spread (76 HP / 196 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD Adamant). We can also change it to this if my spread sucks. I haven't tested it personally and timburr and it won't take physical hits very well, so i don't know.

 

[Trakyan]

A note for chieliees set, the natures meant to be Carefull if im not mistaken, calm lowers physical attack which that timburs gonna need.

Anyways i wanna make a nomination.
Suck it foongus, oddish is better.

Oddish (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Def / 156 SDef / 40 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Stun Spore
- Giga Drain

Same typing as foongus, better stats, more awesomeness. Synthesis is healing, stun spore cripples drilburr and fast attackers, Sludge bomb is a power STAB in conjunction with his good special attack, giga drain is the main STAB for healing and stuff. Sleep Powder could be used or maybe HP fight to hit ferroseed and scraggy harder. This things bulk is under rated and it also holds a solid offensive presence, it could also abuse sunny say from pony to an extent. The SDef EVs could be dropped slightly to hit scraggy harder or dropped completely to give it a nice 13 defense(same as missdrevous which is called bulky for anyone to stupid to notice.) while having a near guaranteed 2HKO on scraggy (11-10 HP) and we could if we wanted to be completely sure run a modest nature which sacrifices some bulk for the garranteed 2HKO but probably better not to. Scraggy may end up on top but it will be in KO range for pretty much anything.

Here are some calcs;

76 SAtk (Neutral Nature) Eviolite Oddish's Sludge Bomb Vs. 0 / 36 Eviolite Scraggy: 9-11 HP (42-52%)

+1 236 Atk Adamant Scraggy's ZenHeadButt Vs 76 / 236 Bold Oddish: 16-18 HP (72-81%)

Never a OHKO on oddish while oddish could 2HKO, even if it doesnt scraggy will be low on HP.

Fighting types are generally countered by this, its also neutral to Mienfoo's U-Turn which is a plus, Drillbur is KOed or crippled, this also counters waters which may trouble the team. The only thing on the threat list that outright beats this is murkrow who beats every single suggestion made so far so dont go attack oddish for that.

another nomination i have is,

Shroomish (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Effect Spore/Poison Heal
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SDef
Bold/Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stun Spore/Spore
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Protect/Spore/Drain Punch/Stun Spore

Better bulk than oddish and, the inferior of the mushroids(mushroomoid?? whats the mushroom version of humanoid???) we know as foongus foongus but at the cost of less power. This thing is amazingly hard to kill and has trolled me so many times, i have also used it to troll others. Effect spore is given a slash since it can let us status mienfoo and Co. just by standing there as well as helping beat scraggy if shed skin doesnt act imediately (It dies if its poisoned for two turns, if its asleep and if its paralysed) while poison heal gives us a great mon to absorb toxic and other statuses when its been hit by toxic. EVs maximize bulk along with nature. Stun Spore is good to cripple fast attackers (drillbur which is on the threat list so far and potentially murkrow), synthesis is healing, giga drain is more healing and the last slot can be debated over, spore is one of the reasons to use shroomish, protect can scout/block fake out/heal up if we have been toxiced with poison heal while drain punch lets us beat scraggy pretty well, especially if its yet to DD when we are in.

Here are some calcs

+1 236 Atk Adamant Scraggy's Crunch Vs. 196/196 Relaxed Shroomish: 12-14 HP (48-56%)

Not a guaranteed 2HKO without prior damage.

0 Atk Neutral Natured Shroomish's Drain Punch Vs. 0/0 Neutral Natured Scraggy: 9-10 HP (42-47%)

The healing here turns crunch from possible 2HKO to a no questions asked 3HKO(bar crit), while we 3HKO as well if there is no prior damage and it could go like this, Scraggy DDs and we drain punch, Scraggy attacks and we drain punch, Scraggy attacks and we drain punch(Scraggy dies here).

Shroomish can handle scraggy pretty well as we see here, it can handle drillbur too and can take hits in general, it doesnt handle fighting types as well as oddish does though.

These two booth cover drillbur and booth to an extent cover scraggy and oddish completely beats fighting types and shroomish wont mind taking a few hits from them. Booth have trouble with murkrow (oddish wouldnt have much trouble if it gets stun spore on the switch) but so does every other nominee.

Sorry for the long windedness of that but set suggestions are welcome, same goes for the spreads and they can be changed if either is selected.

Edit One: Shortened and added picks
Edit Two: Fixed the pics since they werent showing :/

 

[blarajan]

Thanks for the nature fix, Trakyan.

 

[Ray Jay]

Are people not realizing that we already have a Grass-type? I'm really at a loss as to how most of these nominations help us; the biggest threat to our team right now is Scraggy, and the only nominations that help us in that department are Shelmet, Timburr, Croagunk (just doesn't work 50% of the time), and Koffing. Koffing looks decent because it has the ability to check Drilbur, but in my experience I can never get it to last long enough to do so. Shelmet slows down our offensive momentum a ton, but does provide Spikes which could greatly aid Axew. Timburr's probably going to be the best pick unless someone can explain why it isn't...

 

[spuds4ever]

I'm would suggest timburr if it was a physically bulky as specially bulky can't check scraggy reliably.

Yeah, foongus was a kind of "hope that people will choose something original and cute" from me. I've edited my post to something I think will actually work.

 

[danilo]

i dont think we want vullaby. that'll give us 3 pokes weak to ice meaning scarf snover runs over us. i like the idea of using Koffing but it is a very skill intensive mon. I'm not a fan of using Timburr as a way to check Scraggy because I feel it's vastly inferior to Mienfoo as a Scraggy check.

 

[spuds4ever]

i dont think we want vullaby. that'll give us 3 pokes weak to ice meaning scarf snover runs over us. i like the idea of using Koffing but it is a very skill intensive mon. I'm not a fan of using Timburr as a way to check Scraggy because I feel it's vastly inferior to Mienfoo as a Scraggy check.

Except that ponyta completely flattens choice scarf snover and lileep can still survive a 2hko and retaliate hard. Snover is probably the least of our worries, the main problem with vullaby is that we'll almost definetely have to run rapid spin support but staryu would still slot in quite nicely to the team.

 

[danilo]

If Stealth Rock is up and Snover has HP Rock then Ponyta losses. Having 3 major weaknesses isn't something we want in such an early phase of our teambuilding process as it limits what we're to pick in the future. Also, Lileep is not surviving any attack from a competent Snover user.

 

[spuds4ever]

I seem to recall somewhere that ray jay said lileep survives a 2hko from blizzard but maybe that was just my imagination. Anyway, that's why we need a spinner, and snover's not going to be switching in loads itself due to its own SR weakness as well as not safely switching in on anything on this team so far.

 

[Ray Jay]

To clarify, Snover IS 2hkoed by Snover Blizzard; what you're thinking is that it can live 2 blizzards from Chinchou.

 

[blarajan]

All right guys, we've had a ton of good ideas here, but now it's time to get this party started! I johned posting this long enough; now, we have actual variety to vote from!http://www.smogon.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4222113

Vullaby
Shelmet
Koffing <==dgaf we are putting Clear Smog on this
Croagunk
Timburr
Oddish / Shroomish?

Now let's talk about the nominations, even though we've had some awesome discussion already! Everyone gets one vote, post it in bold, and explain your reasoning.

As for me, I am voting for Timburr. I believe Timburr does a lot of valuable things for this team. It provides good bulk and a good back up sweeper for Axew. Furthermore, the priority it gives is invaluable in checking irritating Shell Smash users along with Snover, which has been deemed a problem, and Scraggy. Its combination of power, bulk, and cuteness, makes it a perfect fit for this team.

If i had to vote for a second Pokemon, it would probably be for Shelmet. The hazards and defensive backbone it would provide are excellent, and I believe more valuable than that of Koffing or Oddish / Shroomish if those were to be voted on. Croagunk is the mixed bag here. I love Croagunk to death, but I just don't think it does anything for the team right now. Same for Vullaby, as it ends up losing to many of our current problems.