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LC CCAT (Version III) [Ladder Race won by iss] See Post #236

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Electrolyte, Jan 29, 2013.

  1. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte On a short LoA
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    approved by Blarajan and EM I think

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    LITTLE CUP COMMUNITY CREATE A TEAM
    led by Electrolyte

    Hey guys!

    Many of you may remember me from my last CCAT thread- which was for OU forums, and it was a huge success, bringing forth a lot of new ideas to the table for teambuilding. Now, I'm moving the project back to Little Cup Forums, and starting a whole new version! To those who participated in LC CCAT 1 and 2, I hope to see you again in this round.

    Here is a general explanation of CCAT and how it works:

    Step 1: We are going to start by picking which Pokemon (and set) we are going to be basing the team around. This does NOT mean the Pokemon has to be the late game sweeper, it means the team will be built around that Pokemon and whatever role it plays. After about a week, I will select which Pokemon are going to be in the poll that will be posted after we decide on a list of Pokemon. This means you have to convince me, and others, that your Pokemon is worth being put in the vote.

    Step 2: We select Pokemon that work well around our Pokemon and fit the team style and test it. The nomination and voting processes will be identical to the initial nomination. Note that this one step will be, on its own, a 5-step process as all of the remaining Pokemon will need to be determined during this phase.

    Step 3: We finalize the team and write up a 5-star RMT! Please stay on topic. This thread is meant to create discussion, but lets keep it civil gents and ladies!


    Now, unlike previous CCATs, this one will be a little different. Instead of the first step being, to choose a pokemon to center the team around, we're going to add in a little twist, to make things more interesting. First, the BONUS POINT SYSTEM from OU CCAT Mark III will be put in place here- with a clean new slate for the LC lads. Here's how it works:

    BONUS VOTING POINT SYSTEM: Many different voting systems have been used on Smogon in the past. Everything from holding a council to a public vote to even a plain dictated vote has been used. This time, our voting system will be a different form of a public vote, what I call a bonus voting point system. This is basically just a public vote, but with a little reward added into it. There will be a total of at least six public votes throughout this project. Everyone that submits a winning idea (1st come, 1st serve) will get +0.5 voting points. Keep in mind, voters recieve no change, only the submitters. From the start, everyone has one voting point, which basically means that your vote counts as a single vote. Once you win a round, however, your vote rises and suddenly counts as 1.5 votes. Although this might not seem like much in the beginning, it quickly racks up, and can be the major deciding point of some close cut votes. People that win multiple votes will continue to gain +0.5 voting points.
    I will keep track of users with bonus points at the bottom of the OP.

    We're also going to add a little change to the steps of the process. Instead of going directly to a pokemon that we're going to build a team around, our first step will be instead to choose a strategy / question / idea to base the team around. During this step, users will submit one teambuilding related question that they want answered by the end of this project, very similar to the way the CAP forum starts off their rounds. *

    To make things simpler, here's how you should format your idea submission:

    (Concept):
    (Purpose of team):
    (Description):
    (Questions to consider):

    An Example:

    Overcentralization
    Building a successful team around LC mons that are not popular
    Building a team that works that doesn't use Scraggy / Mienfoo / Misdreavus / Murkrow / Hippopotas
    Questions:
    ~What niches do the top tier pokemon fulfill that can potentially be fulfilled by other pokemon?
    ~How does a pokemon's type / stats / movepool effect its niche and usage?
    ~How would a team without those pokemon handle those pokemon?


    Let the submissions begin! Try to be creative as possible! But keep in mind--we are creating a COMPETITIVE team. So as much as we desire sets that veer from the norm, make sure you have playtested them and can support them. We want to showcase some amazing undiscovered sets. Not Choice Band Happiny.

    Also, due to the nature of the change to this project, this first submission is open to everyone, not just people that have a knowledge of LC. Even if you're new to LC or you want to start it, you can list some questions / concepts about LC teambuilding or the metagame that you might want answers to, and then let the community do the magic.

    I can't wait to see what you guys have in mind!
    Remember, you have a week to get your ideas in.
    Have fun!

    Concept (open)



    Team So Far (open)

    [​IMG]
    Murkrow @ Eviolite
    Trait: Prankster
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Def / 20 SpD / 188 Spe
    Jolly nature
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird
    - Sucker Punch

    [​IMG]
    Drifloon @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd / 36 SAtk / 4 Def / 4 SDef
    Naive Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Shadow Ball
    - Substitute / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power something else
    - Destiny Bond

    [​IMG]
    Tirtouga (M) @ Splash Plate
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 84 HP / 212 Atk / 12 Def / 180 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Shell Smash
    - Aqua Tail
    - Stone Edge
    - Aqua Jet

    [​IMG]
    Drilbur @ Eviolite
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rapid Spin
    - Rock Slide / X-Scissor
    - Stealth Rock

    [​IMG]
    Snover @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Snow Warning
    Level: 5
    EVs: 108 Atk / 188 SpA / 196 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power Fire / Ground
    - Ice Shard

    [​IMG]
    Croagunk @ Eviolite
    Trait: Dry Skin
    Level: 5
    EVs: 212 HP / 28 Atk / 36 Def / 108 SAtk / 116 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Vacuum Wave
    - Drain Punch
    - Shadow Ball


    Bonus Point List (open)

    blarajan: +1.0
    Corkscrew: +1.0
    iss: +1.0
    Lunatic Lies: +0.5


    congrats to iss for winning the ladder race!

    *this idea was synthesized by Blarajan
  2. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    I guess I'll start things off here. I personally think we should avoid balanced for this CCAT. LC abuses its balanced teams a lot thanks to eviolite, but I think Hyper Offense (or the LC equivalent) is something that could work if done right.

    Concept - Hyper Offense

    Purpose of the team -I'd like to see the community create a team that abuses type synergy and raw power to blow through the common Balanced and Sand teams we see in the ladder

    Description - Little Cup has a bunch of strong and underused powerhouses - Houndour, Drifloon and Archen to name a few. The basic idea would be to choose a bunch of synergistic powerhouses that can maintain momentum by setting up on one anothers counters. I think, especially in Little cup, this could be easier said than done, but I do think it possible.

    Things to Consider - Each mon should provide some form of offensive pressure to the team; however entry hazards and status support are often invaluable on these kinds of teams. We would also need a solid core of sweepers to punch through your enemies. This is where the majority of the challenge will be as we need to have each member of the core be able to set up on another member's common checks and counters.

    I hope i did that right, but i dont think i did. Lemme know if i need to fix it.
  3. Shouting

    Shouting

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    I think we should try a specific type of hyper offense, namely weather abuse. It's really unexplored in LC and I think it could be successful.

    Concept: Weather Offense

    Purpose: To create a team that effectively abuses Sun, Rain, or Hail (but not Sandstorm) to overwhelm the opposition's team.

    Description: There are literally heaps of unexplored and rather unused pokemon in LC not because they are completely useless, but because they thrive in weather conditions. For example, pokemon like Bellsprout, Oddish, Mantyke, and Horsea can all be incredibly destructive under their weather of choice yet weather teams that abuse them are almost never seen in LC; why? Mostly because the prevalence of Snover (and to a lesser extent, Hippopotas) deters many players from experimenting with weather. Although Snover is a check for many sweepers, I feel as though the idea of a whole playstyle being nearly unviable because of one pokemon is not really true and can be certainly be challenged. There are some potentially creative ways that weather teams can get rid of Snover and make it less of a threat. For example, Mantyke is pretty resilient to Snover's STABs, Sunny day sweepers usually have access to Stun Spore and Sunny Day, and of course there is always trapping. As a community I feel as though we can try to build a weather team that has no problems with Snover or Hippopotas with possibly a back up plan should things go awry.

    Things to Cosider:
    - What makes a good weather sweeper? Coverage and speed, or Slower but bulkier?
    - What makes a good weather supporter? Bulk and longevity, or just speed?
    - How important is weather in the LC metagame? Should Snover be used just as an answer to Sandstorm teams or does it have more, undiscovered niches?
  4. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    I'd rather not do offense- HO has been done ridiculously often and weather teams have been proven to just be awful.

    Concept: The Hard Counter
    Purpose: Create a team that does not necessarily have large amounts of synergy, but can hard counter common threats in the LC metagame.
    Description: Since DPP, the supposed fact that "you can't hard counter in LC" has been repeated many times by top players. Rather, successful teams have always relied around having many situational checks to threats and using those appropriately. Yet hard counters still exist- one could easily argue that Grimer is a hard counter to Mienfoo, or that Lileep always beats Staryu. Since there are only about 30 commonly used Pokemon, it should theoretically be possible to form a team that has a hard counter to every commonly used threat. Difficult? Yes, but I feel we can definitely make it work.

    - Is it possible to form a team that can have a hard counter to every common threat?
    - How will the lack of team synergy affect the team? For example, if we run Larvesta, are we pigeonholed into running a spinner, even if it doesn't help us hard counter any common threats?
    - How well will such a team fare against less common threats? Can it survive the onslaught of something rare such as Zigzagoon or Taillow?
    - Does every Pokemon have a hard counter in LC? How do we handle huge threats (aka Murkrow)?
    - How can such a team handle pivot-based teams (such as VoltTurn)?
  5. kingmidas

    kingmidas

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    I believe what we need is a team based around hax with a hax abuser like parafusion crow this guys causes forces breating confusion and distorting game plan it is a counter who can causes stall mons to be moved and is basicly counter to all types of offense and defense.
    Concept: the haxing counter
    Purpose: the team is not meant to counter mons but to have a generic hax on almost the full range of mons to disrupt and ruin team and not beat them but let them beat themselves by over thinking.
    Descripton: Hax has been the downfall of teams in almost all the other metagames from liepurd in NU and the likes of jirachi in OU so why not bring it to LC in the form of annoying mons with the proper sets like parafusion crow and then while they are massed up the team strikes or just sets up on the mons afflicted with confusion or statues it will be difficult due to quick strike out mons like abra and other non boosting mons that pose a imminent threat but with the right set up you can stall the moves heal with off the damage with free hax turns and sacrifice mons to have a future advantage.
    -Can the fragility of LC mons even with eviolite be able to withstand such onslaught when the hax does not work.
    -is the immense speed present in LC allow mons to hax againest (volturn) mons and one turn attackers.
    -how many mons can effictively manage to damage and hax teams without running out of health.
    -does this team require to much guessing and mindgames to work againest every team and every person
  6. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    Just commenting on some of the ideas: if we're not supposed to for whatever reason feel free to delete the post.

    Overcentralization - we discussed my concerns about this in mIRC. Interested to see where it goes, but am not getting my hopes up.

    Weather Offense - I have to agree that non-sand weather is mediocre at best. nothing in LC abuses Hail as well as things in higher teirs do, and being forced into 8 max turns of being useful is a huge detriment to your own team.

    Hard counter - I like this idea. What better way to win in an overly-centralized meta than to use the few mons that hard counter what is always seen? Could be an interesting way to see some new mons in different lights

    Hax - My problem with a hax based team is that we're basing an entire team around getting the text "fully paralyzed" or "it hit itself in its confusion." It doesnt seem like a solid strategy to begin a team with is really my concern
  7. Shouting

    Shouting

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    The problem with the hard counter idea is quite frankly it's almost impossible. A team that throws synergy out the window and focuses on countering anything popular just seems like a horrible idea in my opinion. There are much better ways have an anti-metagame team than to just slap 6 hard counters to the top 10 pokemon in LC on a team without even thinking about synergy, it's just being lazy.


    Nothing abuses hail well in LC? Snover doesn't abuse it's own hail it brings? Ice is an amazing attacking type in LC right now. Out of the top 20 usage in LC, only 5 resist Ice. 2 of which (Staryu and Chinchou) are smacked by Snover's Grass STAB. In addition, many of these Ice resists lack recovery, In fact, the only fire type that gets a 50% recovery in Hail is Slugma. They are easy to wear down from many attacks. The most common steel types, (Ferroseed, Pawinard, Magnemite, Bronzor) either do not resist ice or they lack recovery of any means.

    I'm not saying a hail team should consist of 5 Ice types and a Rapid Spinner, that would be silly. A Hail team just needs Snover and one other Blizzard abuser to be effective really, ranging from Smoochum to Cubchoo. You don't even need an Ice type to begin with - things like Chinchou can now run Blizzard to take out it's most common counters.

    Sun and Rain are different, I'd admit. However, Sun and Rain make an appearance in NU and even RU for a reason. Yes, they are different tiers entirely, but if NU can make use of 8 turn weather, I'm not sure why LC can't. Only one pokemon in the top 20 of LC resists the Grass / Fire type coverage combination. How can that not be possibly effective? I would honestly stay away from rain, with Lileep, Frillish, and Ferroseed around, but it still can be done.
  8. kingmidas

    kingmidas

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    well hax does not mean just confusion and pralyisis it is also burns and toxic with a

  9. fryfrey

    fryfrey

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    Kind of reminiscent of CAP. XD

    Concept: Shattered

    Purpose: Create a team designed to consistently and effectively break down the opponents momentum, and attacking from that higher ground.

    Description: LC has tons of momentum, from all points of view. Stall teams usually have a sturdy wall to maintain momentum, and conversely, there are also relentless sweepers. What if you could break that down? If the key pieces of their team falter, many teams find themselves lacking in someone to work their strategy around. And that is what this team aims to achieve: make the foe's offense/defense falter, then hit them from that disadvantage.

    Things To Consider:
    - What general roles and Pokemon can we identify as momentum gainers?
    - What are some things that can eliminate momentum?
    - Do different playstyles/Pokemon have different means of gaining and losing momentum?
    - After losing it, what can you do to regain momentum?
  10. FireMage

    FireMage Say Goodnight!
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    Concept - Hidden Gem
    Purpose - To find an underrated or even undiscovered set/mon that performs well in the metagame given the appropriate support. Given the apprpriate support, this CCAT could examine if an underused mon could punch holes through teams or set in motion an outright sweep.
    Description - LC has a unique setting that other metagames don't. There are a lot of things undiscovered as many pokemon are often overlooked due to them having slighly unwanted base stats / tying or movepool leaving them outclassed. We aim to find a unique set not found before, but functions amazingly.
    Things to consider
    - How do we prevent things from beng outclassed
    - Why is the pokemon we chose not used?
    -How much team suppot would it need to be viable
  11. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Concept: Semi-stall
    Purpose: To create a largely defensive team and wear down the opponent with wide use of pivots and hazards to reliably set up a clean sweep for a cleaner.
    Descripition: Full stall is very difficult to pull of with things like murkrow and knock off all over the place, but with LC's huge range of pivots and sweepers that can be unstoppable if you can provide support, from snover to tirtouga to scraggy, there is plenty of choice to make a synergised and well-structured team.
    Things to consider:
    -what balance to hit between defense and offense
    -the overall objective of the team and how it will be structured around said pokemon
  12. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    Concept - Momentum Mania

    Purpose - I'd like to see the Little Cup Community create a team in a style which, in my opinion, is quite underrated in LC: VoltTurn. Everyone's using sand, balanced, offense. I think building a VoltTurn team will shed some light on this tactic

    Description - The team will try to overthrow the opponent from the first turn onwards. With a combination of Volt Switch, U-turn and hazards, the opponent will be hard-pressed to make risky predictions. A VoltTurn team, can, in the hands of someone with a great sense of prediction, be absolutely deadly.

    Things to Consider
    -How do we prevent/get rid of hazards on our side of the field? Is a spinner necessary, or will it give the opponent a chance to breathe?
    -How will an offensive team deal with LC's great sweepers, most noticeably Drilbur?
    -Will we make the team rely purely on good prediction, or is that too risky? Can/Should we include a failsafe of some sorts?
  13. DatCoconut

    DatCoconut

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    Concept: How can you defeat Sand teams without the use of Snover?

    Purpose: To create a team designed to impede Sand and the accomplices that accompany the team. It should also be able to stop major threats outside of sand, such as the Fighting types, and bulky Water types.

    Description: LC is a metagame like no other. Not only are there only 2 (legal) weather starters, one of said starters is used to counter the other. I think that a team without Snover countering sand teams would be a revolutionary playstyle. Teams of less-experienced players may throw a Snover on a 6th slot, not for synergy, but for the over-all ability to counter sand. The main purpose of this a team like this would be to eliminate the Pokemon that have the ability to rip through teams. (Drilbur, Sandshrew, other possible sweepers). Next, stop any other attacker that can threaten a portion of the remaining members of the team. Finally, finish the sand-stallers using this teams stall-breakers/anti-stall. (Lileep, Ferroseed, Chinchou, even Hippo if you want to include it here.). The team should have a general balance of Drilbur killer(s),walls, stall-breakers/sweepers and possibly a supporter if it is needed.

    Things to Consider:
    -How will anti-sand be able to defeat other common threats, such as Scraggy and Mienfoo?
    -What are some creative pokes that can be used to defeat Drilbur/Sandshrew?
    -Can there be a good balance of offence and defense, or will it favor one over the other?
  14. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Concept: Overwhelming Offense

    Purpose: Create a team that is meant to overwhelm a specific Pokemon's checks and counters (that isn't SandMag and is thus less well checked) in order to set up a sweep for the other thing.

    Description: Things are easy to wear down in this tier. I'm sure spamming Fire types or Water types or Fighting types or something can lead to some sort of sweep.

    Things to Consider:
    Offenses greatest nemeses, Drilbur and Murkrow
    Handling the tier
    BEING STRONG

    Sorry not much detail...just "spam Pokemon checked by the same stuff to WIN IT VIGOROUSLY"
  15. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    I'm not going to post a concept because we have some really good ones already but Blara's is probably my favourite. Mainly because it's quite a fun playstyle to play with. Other's I like are Hyper Offense, Weather offense or Momentum Mania (VoltTurn) mainly because I mostly build teams around beating common pokemon as opposed to overwhelming them with offense and it would be a better learning tool for me personally.
  16. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte On a short LoA
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    Ok, that was more than enough time for initial submissions. Time to get voting!

    Here are your choices:
    ~Electrolyte's Overcentralization (look in OP)
    ~Delver's Hyper Offense
    ~Shouting's Weather Offense
    ~iss's The Hard Counter
    ~kingmitus's The Haxing Counter
    ~fryfrey'sShattered
    ~FireMage's Hidden Gem
    ~Spuds4ever's Semi Stall
    ~Chieliee's Momentum Mania
    ~DatCoconut's Beat Sand Without Hail
    ~blarajan's Overwhelming Offense


    I'll give you guys around a week to get your votes in. Vote for one submission only! You MAY NOT vote for your own concept!

    Ties will be broken by me.

    Get voting!~
  17. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    doubting between iss, firemage and spuds4ever

    i'll think about it and edit this post with my vote

    edit: yeah going with FireMage
  18. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    I like Chieliee's and Blara's the best but i'm going with

    Blarajan
  19. FireMage

    FireMage Say Goodnight!
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    Shouting

    I honestly would like to see how well the other weathers can be abused in a tier which is a lot more bulkier than others. (Including the setters)
  20. DatCoconut

    DatCoconut

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    spuds4ever

    I really like almost all of the ideas though...
  21. macle

    macle ribbit
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    Shouting
  22. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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  23. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    these are all sorta boring

    blarajan
  24. Skittle

    Skittle

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  25. Shouting

    Shouting

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    We are in DESPERATE need of creativity in LC, so I'm going to vote FireMage

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