Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Camden]

Even without rocks it still has approximately 65% of a chance to OHKO. Mind you, you're normally not leaving a frail water-type against a bulky Grass-type anyway unless you can guarantee the KO...which you do if Foongus isn't at 100% HP.

 

[skies]

Bunnelby: B+ Rank ---> A- Rank

What is this Bunny doing in B+ Rank? I've used Bunnelby a bunch and it never ceases to impress me. On Sticky Web teams, it's absolutely incredible. It cleans up late-game thanks to the opponent's lowered Speed mitigating Bunnelby's biggest flaw: poor Speed when facing offense. Bunnelby 2HKOes, if not OHKOes, a large portion of the metagame. What makes it deserve the raise, however, is how reliable it is at keeping Sticky Web up. Bunnelby places so much pressure on the opponent's team through its insanely powerful Return and coverage. Stone Edge is powerful enough that it has a chance to OHKO Vullaby from full health, and also KOes 100% of the time when Stealth Rock is up. Stone Edge in itself is a great move on Bunnelby for hitting Archen switch ins and Vullaby. Bunnelby's also got access to Quick Attack, which is exceptionally useful because it does a lot more damage than one would expect and is helpful to pick off set up sweepers! Bunnelby's offensive pressure, raw power, and great use on Sticky Webs are what lead me to believe that Bunnelby warrants a raise.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

shellder to b
look at s through a rank and tell me shellder takez on a majority of that
i mean at +2 it putz in work but at +0 its p weak and it also frail

 

[apt-get]

shellder to b
look at s through a rank and tell me shellder takez on a majority of that
i mean at +2 it putz in work but at +0 its p weak and it also frail

+0 is actually impressive in terms of damage output (icicle spear 2HKOes a lot of shit), especially bulky mons like ferroseed which usually think they can switch in and then lose 40% health at a single icicle spear

I don't see how it's frail either, it has p much one of the best defense stats in the tier, and I've experienced with a bulky spinner set that puts in a lot of work, namely always avoiding the 2hko from carvanha's crunch and not even being 3hkoed by fletch's acrobatics while still dishing out the pain.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Porygon -> A+
Buneary -> C+
Tirtouga -> A-
Totodile -> D
Teddiursa -> C
Tyrunt -> C

If you have any disagreements with these changes, feel free to post on them

 

[tazz]

move teddiursa to C+, it's easily better than all the mons in C

I thought someone else would post an argument against moving porygon to A+, but nobody i've read has, so I guess i'll do it. Porygon is a great pokemon, yes, but it's not better than the pokemon in A nor is it as good as the pokemon in A+. A is by no means a bad rank, and pokemon like spritzee and ferroseed are really, really good pokemon that are just as useful as porygon on most teams. Spritzee is often porygon's partner in crime and is the best wishpasser in LC, and can run a fearsome CM set. Ferroseed is the best spike stacker for balance and semi-stall (and stall but stall is meh), and is able to wall a very large portion of the meta. Porygon is probably the best chinchou switch in in LC (besides our lord goldeen), but it doesn't really like switching into pawniard, mienfoo, or most physical attackers in general. It hates being knocked off, which abra can and often does run, and often stuggles to counter all the stuff it needs to counter. Yes it can use recover, but it doesn't always have the opportunity to when everything is trying to kill it, especially fighting types. Porygon is also not as good as many A+ threats, like timburr, chinchou, and ponyta, which are all more easy to put on teams and often serve more of a function.

Also move Lickitung down to B- anyone who's used it will agree (not many people)

 

[Melon]

Skrelp A- --> A

Skrelp's Poison/Water typing is fantastic, giving it near-perfect coverage with its STABs and giving it eight resistances, including really helpful resistances against Fighting and Fairy. Adaptability makes Skrelp hit like a specially oriented truck, 2HKOing almost the entire tier with a mix of Hydro Pump and Sludge Wave, and OHKOing pretty much anything it gets a Super Effective hit on, such as Spritzee after Stealth Rock. Skrelp’s last slot after Scald, Sludge Wave, and Hydro Pump is very useful as its two best switch-ins, Ferroseed and Croagunk, are both hit hard by Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Psychic respectively. The best part about Skrelp is that it's actually bulky enough to switch in on attacks. Skrelp can tank two Fletchling Acros and OHKO back with a Hydro Pump, and can even survive hits such as Sashbras Psychic and Drilburs Earthquake with no rocks. Skrelp can even survive Gothita’s Psychic after Stealth Rock and have a 50% to KO back with Hydro Pump without rocks. Skrelp can also opt for Rest/Sleep Talk over a Water STAB and a Hidden Power giving it semi-reliable recovery, a way to continuously switch in on things like Mienfoo, Timburr, Spritzee, and Ponyta for the whole match, and making it a great Spore switch-in which is something that isn't on many teams. Pretty much Skrelp is fucking amazing

 

[kingmidas]

Skrelp A- --> A

Skrelp's Poison/Water typing is fantastic, giving it near-perfect coverage with its STABs and giving it eight resistances, including really helpful resistances against Fighting and Fairy. Adaptability makes Skrelp hit like a specially oriented truck, 2HKOing almost the entire tier with a mix of Hydro Pump and Sludge Wave, and OHKOing pretty much anything it gets a Super Effective hit on, such as Spritzee after Stealth Rock. Skrelp’s last slot after Scald, Sludge Wave, and Hydro Pump is very useful as its two best switch-ins, Ferroseed and Croagunk, are both hit hard by Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Psychic respectively. The best part about Skrelp is that it's actually bulky enough to switch in on attacks. Skrelp can tank two Fletchling Acros and OHKO back with a Hydro Pump, and can even survive hits such as Sashbras Psychic and Drilburs Earthquake with no rocks. Skrelp can even survive Gothita’s Psychic after Stealth Rock and have a 50% to KO back with Hydro Pump without rocks. Skrelp can also opt for Rest/Sleep Talk over a Water STAB and a Hidden Power giving it semi-reliable recovery, a way to continuously switch in on things like Mienfoo, Timburr, Spritzee, and Ponyta for the whole match, and making it a great Spore switch-in which is something that isn't on many teams. Pretty much Skrelp is fucking amazing

The issue with skrelp is its speed/bulk are easily capitalized on, while it does have the option of running restalk, it simply loses the offensive utility by being complete bait for ferroseed, croagunk. Knock off makes its above average bulk rather mild when it either lacks recovery or has exact answers. It shines vs defensive if offensive and bulky offense teams, but vs HO, volturn and stall, if it was faster A definitely but its slow speed just cripples its efficiently ever so slightly to make it A-. Also its 2/3rd trap bait, diglett and gothita can neuter it.

 

[doomsday doink]

move teddiursa to C+, it's easily better than all the mons in C

I thought someone else would post an argument against moving porygon to A+, but nobody i've read has, so I guess i'll do it. Porygon is a great pokemon, yes, but it's not better than the pokemon in A nor is it as good as the pokemon in A+. A is by no means a bad rank, and pokemon like spritzee and ferroseed are really, really good pokemon that are just as useful as porygon on most teams. Spritzee is often porygon's partner in crime and is the best wishpasser in LC, and can run a fearsome CM set. Ferroseed is the best spike stacker for balance and semi-stall (and stall but stall is meh), and is able to wall a very large portion of the meta. Porygon is probably the best chinchou switch in in LC (besides our lord goldeen), but it doesn't really like switching into pawniard, mienfoo, or most physical attackers in general. It hates being knocked off, which abra can and often does run, and often stuggles to counter all the stuff it needs to counter. Yes it can use recover, but it doesn't always have the opportunity to when everything is trying to kill it, especially fighting types. Porygon is also not as good as many A+ threats, like timburr, chinchou, and ponyta, which are all more easy to put on teams and often serve more of a function.

Also move Lickitung down to B- anyone who's used it will agree (not many people)

Porygon is much more versatile than Spritzee and Ferroseed while still offering a similar amount of bulk. The latter both run cut-and-dry movesets (with Ferro maybe diversifying a bit) and because of that are extremely predictable. Porygon has fantastic coverage and support moves, along with very reliable recovery in Recover and a usable Speed stat.

Porygon is by far the best Chinchou switch-in (bar Chinchou itself), but you're severely under-weighing its capabilities against other Pokemon. I've been hyping a faster Porygon set which hits 14 Speed while still retaining bulk and it can easily beat slower Mienfoo 1v1 thanks to Psychic. Also saying that Abra runs Knock Off often is something I'd expect some random user to argue, not someone experienced in the metagame and aware of the fact that Knock Off Abra misses out on key coverage moves or utility options (Protect or Sub) and is usually easier to defeat than the standard sets.

Porygon also has a good offensive presence if you choose to run Download, and although the offensive sets are outclassed by the bulkier sets, this lends itself to the argument that Porygon can in fact serve a variety of functions on a variety of teams. It's one of my go-to pivots on offensive teams (with the other being Snubbull) due to its ability to fulfill quite a few different roles and check a plethora of Pokemon. I think you're severely understating Porygon as a threat both offensively and defensively and I urge to to experiment with its different sets and realize how beneficial of Pokemon it is in the current metagame.

Keep it at A+

 

[cityfolk]

I also support Porygon for A+ because even on the bulky Recover set, it still hits very hard with uninvested Tri Attack + Psychic/Hp Fighting/Ice Beam. It can beat non-substitute Gastly and Abra 1v1 (and can switch in on non-LO abra), which most mons can't claim. It uses it's Trace ability to trace other useful abilities such as Volt Absorb (Chinchou), Flash Fire (Houndour), Regenerator (Slowpoke, Mienfoo, Foongus), along with many others. It also can be somewhat unpredictable because in addition to the tank set, it can run the Download + Agility sweeper set, which is very powerful even at just +1 SpA.

 

[Melon]

The issue with skrelp is its speed/bulk are easily capitalized on, while it does have the option of running restalk, it simply loses the offensive utility by being complete bait for ferroseed, croagunk. Knock off makes its above average bulk rather mild when it either lacks recovery or has exact answers. It shines vs defensive if offensive and bulky offense teams, but vs HO, volturn and stall, if it was faster A definitely but its slow speed just cripples its efficiently ever so slightly to make it A-. Also its 2/3rd trap bait, diglett and gothita can neuter it.

Running ResTalk leaves Skrelp with a way of hitting literally one less mon (Ferroseed or Croagunk) and you're gaining recovery for your loss so you aren't missing out on much utility there to be honest. Knock Off is annoying yes, but it's annoying for every single mon that runs an item too. If you need the bulk given by Eviolite for Skrelp to check something else then you should go out of your way not to switch it into things that can knock it's Eviolite off, and even with no Eviolite it's bulk is nowhere near bad, especially with recovery in Rest. I don't think Skrelp has trouble versus Stall teams to be honest, I mean it's doing things like 2HKOing Porygon and ResTalk Chinchou after rocks, and vs HO it can switch in on fighters and predicted resisted moves or come in after something faints and heavily dent or KO something. Skrelp is a great switch-in to 2/3 of VolTurns main mons (Larvesta and Mienfoo) and will dent a switch-in, so I never really found it was a liability in this match up either, however Diglett can trap it so I can see where you are coming from here. I do have to admit it's speed can hold it back at times, but it's bulk and power more then make up for it as it out speeds many of the walls that try (and often fail) to wall it and can tank hits from the faster mons. Sadly Skrelp does get trapped and almost always KOed by Diglett and Gothita, but they can only come in off of U-Turns/Volt Switches and something fainting, so by playing well it will trade 1 for 1 most of the time.

 

[tazz]

Knock off is a completely viable option as a fourth moveslot on abra and isn't outclassed at all by sub or protect lol, I'm not sure about what you're talking about there.

I have experimented with porygon a lot. I have found that while it is great at checking a ton of things like oma, it doesn't actually like switching into to much. It hates knock off, it hates status, and mons like fletchling can just u-turn out. Yeah it can deal with key threats like gast and some abras, but only after taking a lot of damage, disallowing it from checking what it wants to check. Spritzee and ferroseed, while predictable, are very good at their jobs. While porygon has variety, once you know the set, it's not difficult to deal with. There is a clear divide between high A+ and low A+, and archen is probably the closest thing in viability to porygon. Archen, in my opinion, is easily better than porygon. It is one of, if not the best fletch check, it is one of the best SR users, one of the best defoggers, and one of the best wallbreakers, all at the same time. It's ability to fit on so many teams and do so many things makes it easily better than porygon.

I've actually tested a bit with lickitung and now I'm changing my nomination to C+. Lickitung is a mon that looks good on paper but is bad in practice. It should be lowered ASAP.

 

[Kavatika]

I have experimented with porygon a lot. I have found that while it is great at checking a ton of things like oma, it doesn't actually like switching into to much. It hates knock off, it hates status, and mons like fletchling can just u-turn out. Yeah it can deal with key threats like gast and some abras, but only after taking a lot of damage, disallowing it from checking what it wants to check.

Yes, Porygon hates Knock Off. Porygon hates status. Guess what? Mienfoo hates Knock Off. Mienfoo hates status. Everything hates Knock Off, and everything hates status, barring the uncommon Sticky Hold user. Just because something doesn't like Knock Off, doesn't mean it can't be moved up in rank. Look at all that Porygon can check, simply because of sheer bulk.

Spritzee and ferroseed, while predictable, are very good at their jobs.

I don't know if you've played with these two, but Spritzee and Ferroseed are prime setup bait. Spritzee is really only offensively threatening when it's against something that is weak to its STAB, or when it's acquired a lot of boosts, and Ferroseed is extremely easy to wear down and doesn't deal a lot of damage. This produces some key differences between them and Porygon, with Porygon actually being threatening without investment because of its naturally high SpA and amazing coverage.

While porygon has variety, once you know the set, it's not difficult to deal with.

Have you tried switching into Download Porygon? You do realize it 2HKOes any standard Fighting-type with Tri Attack, and can easily run coverage for anything that resists Tri Attack? Given Trace and Download activate upon switching in, it's not hard to know the set, and assuming you realize that, you seem to think that it is simple to deal with Porygon. It is not simple to deal with Porygon. Even the wall set can be hard to switch in to.

There is a clear divide between high A+ and low A+, and archen is probably the closest thing in viability to porygon. Archen, in my opinion, is easily better than porygon. It is one of, if not the best fletch check, it is one of the best SR users, one of the best defoggers, and one of the best wallbreakers, all at the same time. It's ability to fit on so many teams and do so many things makes it easily better than porygon.

You really seem to ignore the fact that Porygon is one of the best Shell Smash checks, can check Archen, Fletchling, Chinchou, Gastly, Abra, and more. Porygon checks so much and is really hard to switch into by virtue of coverage and power, and easily deserves A+

 

[absdaddy]

it's time

I don't know if you've played with these two, but Spritzee and Ferroseed are prime setup bait.

bs, what sets up on spritzee while it sets up along? magnet rise magnemite? growth foongus? pawniard can try but mispredicting can lead to eating nice moonblast doing over half and later it just gets revenged, going for iron head means it eats moonblast too - it cannot setup at all



ok so

As most of you know, I personally find this thread horribly wrong about ton of things because most things in it are ranked according to personal opinions, completely ignoring how 'mon actually performs. Mon most of you probably never used or faced a good team/player with it.

Oh, and whoever was that dumbass saying Snivy needs a lot of support was just wrong. It's among the most selfish mons in the meta. Git gud, fight a good snivy or learn to use it properly.

ranks

b(lmfao) > a-/b+

What is dog doing under so common, metagame defining, dangerous threats like HIPPOPOTAS(kick this shit down) or MUNCHLAX(read hippopotas note)?? It has power of Vulpix without needing sun, often goes mixed, has access to powerful and fast priority, ZERO safe switchins that come in more than once. It's SR weak okay, but so are Larvesta(lol), Vulpix and Ponyta. None of which can fill Houndour's niche. Removes/forces out Gastly and Abra(breaks sash at worst) too, something no mon mentioned before can do. And don't start shit about Sub LO Abra, I know it's an amazing set but be honest - recently none of you took effort to try and not use most popular failsafe things, all of your Abras are fucking Sash because that's "meta" and allows you to get outplayed and still win due to ease of coming back. Admit it. edit : forgot it checks fires too

196 SpA Life Orb Houndour Fire Blast vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

cool switchin, gl switching second time with drain hitting some nifty resist or ooze tenta

196 SpA Life Orb Houndour Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

relies on speedtie to kill dog, cannot switch as FB+Sucker kill, possible Destiny Bond can take it out if it loses tie/is slower

b- > at least b+

among the best OFFENSIVE(word not known to many lcers) support mons. Benefits from the fact that phazers are almost never seen, taunt mienfoo is less common now and also bc Taunt cottonee is never used for whatever reason. Encore works but you might switch on a stab if it runs one. Quickpass teams utilizing Curse Torchic rocking Eviolite can end the game as early as turn 1-3, why? Ask yourselves, what's stopping Torch from doing it's thing save two mons mentioned before? T1 Protect for the speedboost, CURSE next to setup on things like Archen, Drilbur you name them. Then protect again or sub and simply pass to one of your five receivers - that's how properQuickpass team looks like. If opponent lacks things like these^ that means more curses, so even easier win. Torchic Quickpass with more than 3 receivers lets me pick what mon would benefit the most from boosts according to matchup I have - it doesn't even have to be physical mon, certain things enjoy speed and defense boosts too. Torchic can make shittiest things like DEINO work which swept many renowned players.. I won't even start on best receivers like Timburr, Drilbur, Foo, Mixed Skrelp, Archen. Just because you use inferior Bj torchic/never seen good quickpass(because that's what torchic does mainly and best)doesnt mean it's bad.

HEY HEY there's also simple Life Orb set i revived pairing really good with Carvanha(homage to prems sonic core, rip yanma) - as you can guess, it has zero safe switchins, save Flash Fire firemons. Many things WILL switch on it expecting passer, coming in to Encore it, phaze it, whatever;

this is what happens

252+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 20 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 17-21 (65.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Cottonee: 26-34 (118.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Hidden Power Grass vs. 84 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

surprise factor is a thing and if i shit on opponent's team because he thought im passing like 99% torches but im not and i clean more than half of his team instead, it means it works


b- > b

Fast spinner that wins vs both common spinblockers with two good abilities to boot that also removes rare tspikes upon switching? Hell yes!

- checks or even counters all fighters with Liquid Ooze punishing them for using Drain Punch, switches on most coverage moves they run save Scraggy's/Pancham's ZHB, forcing them out to burn something, spin, knock off or even burn said fighters
- huge special defense to completely laugh at Gastly, one of the two spinblockers
- Access to Knock Off (hello pumpkaboo)
- Good defensive typing (skrelp is getting praise for it but not tenta)
- If you're Webs weak, it can run Clear Body that lets you spin webs without getting the speed drop
- sd tentacool is real too


b > b+

THE counter to Abra and Gastly with both being superfuckinguber common, especially Abra.
- shits on abra and can be Ev'd to live LO gleam twice after rocks and OHKO with pursuit on the same set even when Abra isn't switching out
- gastly: ^
- Strong priority picking off many weakened things
- Bomb and Fireblast hurt even with little investment (lures in Pawniard coming on "Defog" and Fireblasts its ass for a 2hko while avoiding 2hko itself, that's good af)
- all of the above are achieved using one custom spread I've made, I already gave it out for Workshop so i guess i can re-post it; I've been told to post somewhere to make it a main spread in the analysis(?) but I have no idea where to go lol.

dirty mike (Stunky) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Aftermath
Level: 5
EVs: 12 HP / 92 Atk / 104 Def / 108 SpA / 188 SpD / 4 Spe
Brave Nature
- Pursuit
- Sludge Bomb
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Blast

The best stunky. Go ahead and prove me wrong, it does ALL things Stunky wants to do, tanking hits from things it's not supposed to and it's just the most solid spread right now being able to avoid certain important 2hkos and on the other side, it has enough power to secure some 2hkos vs mons you'd not expect it to. No, it doesn't tank Drilbur's EQ, but it's not supposed to.

- can go a bit faster and defog/memento

i kinda don't wanna share it but seeing these stunks on ladder falling to abras or not being able to switch on gastly bomb + running weirdass fast sets makes me cringe.



ok im tired as hell so im just gonna leave this here
slowpoke up af
snivy up
drifloon up
munchlax and hippo down
aron up
scraggy up af (lol)
larvitar up
zorua up
snubbul down

i will edit these^ accordingly when im not tired

what a bs thread

 

[Merritt]

The issue with Tentacool is that it loses to the hazard setters themselves, even though it beats the spinblockers. Wall of calcs upcoming (I like calcs).

0 Atk Archen Earthquake vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Tentacool: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Without Eviolite Tentacool is cleanly OHKOed)

0 SpA Tentacool Scald vs. 76 HP / 76 SpD Archen: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Tentacool: 26-32 (113 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tentacool Scald vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

36 Atk Ferroseed Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Tentacool: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO

36 Atk Ferroseed Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Tentacool: 12-18 (52.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (In pretty much all likelihood it's a 3HKO, although a 2HKO is possible, especially if Tentacool uses Rapid Spin or Knock Off)

236 Atk Dwebble Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Tentacool: 11-13 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO

236 Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Tentacool: 12-18 (52.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's a good spinner, but not quite as dominant of a spinner as you make it out to be. Still better than Pineco, though. And I have no idea what you're doing with SD Tentacool, since that means you lose one of Knock Off, Poison STAB, Scald, or spin.

B- is fine, in my opinion.

 

[absdaddy]

It's a good spinner, but not quite as dominant of a spinner as you make it out to be. Still better than Pineco, though. And I have no idea what you're doing with SD Tentacool, since that means you lose one of Knock Off, Poison STAB, Scald, or spin.

ask fizz not me

Edit

It might not beat setters, but it beats spinblockers - both star and mole fall to Pumpkaboo, and none of them enjoy taking a hit from orbed/scarfed gast. Tenta beats both regardless of set, that's pretty big and unique enough to bump it one rank. I'm not making it look 'dominant', hence just one rank bump.

 

[doomsday doink]

,
It's a good spinner, but not quite as dominant of a spinner as you make it out to be. Still better than Pineco, though. And I have no idea what you're doing with SD Tentacool, since that means you lose one of Knock Off, Poison STAB, Scald, or spin.

ask fizz not me

lol like i'd run that shit

Tentacool's a fantastic spinner thanks to solid abilities that allow it to spin on a shitton of stuff. Liquid Ooze lets it spin on fighters and Foongus and stuff and is the best ability for an offensive set (which is pretty easy to abuse with 17 Spe and 19 HP along with a good coverage movepool). Clear Body is amazing for spinning away webs and if you choose to run 17 Spe you're outspeeding the common "slow mons" on webs (like Mienfoo and Pawniard). Tentacool's not some A+ mon, but it definitely qualifies as a B mon.

Also that SpDef is beautiful

 

[Rowan]

move teddiursa to C+, it's easily better than all the mons in C

teddiursa can beat ladder sure, but it's just outclassed by other set up sweepers at the end of the day, it can't run protect+SD and can't set up without memento, screens or wynaut or something, and tbh it's just so much hard to support than other set up sweepers, and it just has no way of getting round prio. Teddi is one of those 'amazing in theory' mons which actually just does shit in any serious game. Most C+ mons can hold their own in a serious game because they have small niches, see mons like numel, spinarak, chespin, buneary, darumaka, koffing which are all worth using on the right team. C is kind for teddiursa tbh, it definitely belongs in the same rank as honedge, growlithe, mantyke etc..

no opinion on porygon idrc

absdaddy

yeah, houndour can move up B+ or even A- are fine. pursuit support is really neat, and it makes a fantastic wallbreaker as you say.

torchic, I'm also happy with moving up, people really underestimate it's ability to support so much, definitely happy with B or B+, probably not A- though, because it's a bit too niche for that.

tentacool just doens't have the longevity to do all those things reliably throughout the match imo. In theory, it's amazing but it just cannot do everything at once. I think B- is a fine place for tentacool.

stunky should definitely move up to B+, I agree with you there.

slowpoke up af
snivy up
drifloon up
munchlax and hippo down
aron up
scraggy up af (lol)
larvitar up
zorua up
snubbul down

slowpoke, b is fine for it

snivy, i haven't seen or used so no comment.

drifloon could rise to B i guess, it's similar to taillow in that it's a great wallbreaker and stuff, especially that boss af trickspecs set you used in splc, the innovation is just too much ;-; too niche for B+ though.

munchlax, nope. It's really underrated atm, it can switch into most special attackers like gastly, abra and if you invest in max attack, it's return/bodyslam hurts like a truck, munchlax can do serious work on bulky offense teams.

hippo, no. it's great in semi-stall walls most physical mons and beats niche threats like sun, baton pass. probably the best pokemon in the semi-stall archetype

aron, no opinion seems fine where is

scraggy, meh

larvitar, yeah sure C max though, probably the same level as teddiursa.

zorua, no opinion C at a max

snubbull, nononononono! it's too good. 80 base attack and 4 out of play rough, eq, close combat, thief and thunderwave make it a nightmare to switch into. it does so much damage. snubbull is very hard to switch into, and can switch into a lot of things itself, doesn't care about knock off too much, thanks to thief. perfect bulky offense mon.

 

[Celestavian]

b- > at least b+

among the best OFFENSIVE(word not known to many lcers) support mons. Benefits from the fact that phazers are almost never seen, taunt mienfoo is less common now and also bc Taunt cottonee is never used for whatever reason. Encore works but you might switch on a stab if it runs one. Quickpass teams utilizing Curse Torchic rocking Eviolite can end the game as early as turn 1-3, why? Ask yourselves, what's stopping Torch from doing it's thing save two mons mentioned before? T1 Protect for the speedboost, CURSE next to setup on things like Archen, Drilbur you name them. Then protect again or sub and simply pass to one of your five receivers - that's how properQuickpass team looks like. If opponent lacks things like these^ that means more curses, so even easier win. Torchic Quickpass with more than 3 receivers lets me pick what mon would benefit the most from boosts according to matchup I have - it doesn't even have to be physical mon, certain things enjoy speed and defense boosts too. Torchic can make shittiest things like DEINO work which swept many renowned players.. I won't even start on best receivers like Timburr, Drilbur, Foo, Mixed Skrelp, Archen. Just because you use inferior Bj torchic/never seen good quickpass(because that's what torchic does mainly and best)doesnt mean it's bad.

HEY HEY there's also simple Life Orb set i revived pairing really good with Carvanha(homage to prems sonic core, rip yanma) - as you can guess, it has zero safe switchins, save Flash Fire firemons. Many things WILL switch on it expecting passer, coming in to Encore it, phaze it, whatever;

this is what happens

252+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 20 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 17-21 (65.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Cottonee: 26-34 (118.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Hidden Power Grass vs. 84 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

surprise factor is a thing and if i shit on opponent's team because he thought im passing like 99% torches but im not and i clean more than half of his team instead, it means it works

I'll tell you what stops Curse Torchic: special attackers (and Timburr). Skrelp, Gastly, Omanyte, Magnemite, and anything else with hard-hitting Special Attacks can bypass Torchic's physical boosting, and since Torchic rarely ever runs attacking moves on quickpassing sets, they can do so with impunity. There's also Timburr, like I mentioned, who sets up right alongside you and getting an extra turn for every Protect you use, and when you use Baton Pass. Get to +6 to avoid that? Unless you've got Archen, all Timburr will do is use Knock Off on your switch-in and then Timburr has a big advantage. There's also some stuff like Corphish who can beat it, but Torchic can just switch out of that. The way you make Torchic sound like an easy turn 3 win condition is just absurd, and if it really was like that, then quickpass would be everywhere. There's plenty that can put the brakes on it besides Taunt users.

As for LO Torchic, all it does is make your opponent glad you aren't running the good set. You mention the surprise factor, and it can 2HKO stuff like Timburr that would otherwise use Torchic as set-up bait, and that is valid. It sure would be a surprise if my Timburr was going to be 2HKOed while trying to Bulk Up. However, I take this as a pleasant surprise: "Hooray! Torchic is running a garbage LO set rather than the actually possibly threatening CursePass set! Now I don't have to worry about it getting a free set-up turn mid-game!" I'll take LO Torchic any day over facing the CursePass set, kind of like how I love SS Dwebble because every Fighting-type ever walls it, rather than the hazard setter which makes my usually spinless teams cry.

b > b+

THE counter to Abra and Gastly with both being superfuckinguber common, especially Abra.
- shits on abra and can be Ev'd to live LO gleam twice after rocks and OHKO with pursuit on the same set even when Abra isn't switching out
- gastly: ^
- Strong priority picking off many weakened things
- Bomb and Fireblast hurt even with little investment (lures in Pawniard coming on "Defog" and Fireblasts its ass for a 2hko while avoiding 2hko itself, that's good af)
- all of the above are achieved using one custom spread I've made, I already gave it out for Workshop so i guess i can re-post it; I've been told to post somewhere to make it a main spread in the analysis(?) but I have no idea where to go lol.

dirty mike (Stunky) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Aftermath
Level: 5
EVs: 12 HP / 92 Atk / 104 Def / 108 SpA / 188 SpD / 4 Spe
Brave Nature
- Pursuit
- Sludge Bomb
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Blast

The best stunky. Go ahead and prove me wrong, it does ALL things Stunky wants to do, tanking hits from things it's not supposed to and it's just the most solid spread right now being able to avoid certain important 2hkos and on the other side, it has enough power to secure some 2hkos vs mons you'd not expect it to. No, it doesn't tank Drilbur's EQ, but it's not supposed to.

- can go a bit faster and defog/memento

i kinda don't wanna share it but seeing these stunks on ladder falling to abras or not being able to switch on gastly bomb + running weirdass fast sets makes me cringe.

So what exactly is Stunky's job? Is it only to beat Abra, Gastly, and Gothita? Or is there something else it beats that I'm missing? Spritzee perhaps, but Moonblast hurts on the switch and it can switch out for free. It walls Ferroseed and can also beat Foongus, but doesn't like status from either of them. Stunky can't really hurt a lot that isn't weak to its moves or is severely weakened, and in return, has no utility outside of trapping a few Pokemon. The set you suggest has no hazard control, no Taunt, and Stunky in general has no Knock Off or recovery, meaning its only purpose is to switch into stuff and hopefully deal enough damage to it to justify the teamslot being used on it. Abra is the only thing that it can trap that is even a notable feat. Gothita is so easy to take advantage of after it KOes something that Stunky is not needed to take care of it, and Gastly is also similarly easy to get rid of, which Stunky can't even do consistently thanks to Destiny Bond. It has Aftermath which can be annoying, but Pokemon such as Drilbur or any special attacker can get around that just by not using a contact move. You really have to hate Abra to put Stunky on your team. Keep it in B, or in fact, I'd even support moving it down.

ok im tired as hell so im just gonna leave this here
slowpoke up af No
snivy up Never faced or used it so no comment
drifloon up No
munchlax and hippo down Munchlax no way, Hippo sure
aron up No
scraggy up af (lol) Hell no
larvitar up To C+ I suppose
zorua up ^
snubbul down OK

 

[tazz]

in response to kavatika's post (someone tell me how to quote idk how lol), even knocked off or statused stuff like mienfoo can do it's job. porygon has a significantly harder time checking stuff once it's knocked off, hindering it from doing it's job. My main point of that post is that archen, which is probably the lowest mon in A, is better than Porygon. I'm not saying that porygon isn't good at doing what it does, i'm saying that it's not as good at doing what it does as the pokemon in A+. if you disagree, please post why porygon is as good as the pokemon in A+.

 

[kingmidas]

in response to kavatika's post (someone tell me how to quote idk how lol), even knocked off or statused stuff like mienfoo can do it's job. porygon has a significantly harder time checking stuff once it's knocked off, hindering it from doing it's job. My main point of that post is that archen, which is probably the lowest mon in A, is better than Porygon. I'm not saying that porygon isn't good at doing what it does, i'm saying that it's not as good at doing what it does as the pokemon in A+. if you disagree, please post why porygon is as good as the pokemon in A+.

theres a reply button. Also porygon has t-wave and amazing coverage, including amazing bulk that makes recover stall never a bad idea vs stuff that can't hit it for SE damage.

 

[Anthiese]

Oh, and whoever was that dumbass saying Snivy needs a lot of support was just wrong. It's among the most selfish mons in the meta. Git gud, fight a good snivy or learn to use it properly.

That was me. Also this was before the Sub BJ set was a thing and while Contrary was still new. So I apoligise.

In the meantime lets recap why Snivy is gud

+ Free +2 off of Leaf Storm and doesnt give a fuck about Defog + Intimidate
+ Glare paralyzes anything that's not Elec or Limber
+ Knock Off
+ Sub + BJ lets it get off a few free nuts to break the opposition

reasons it's held back

- hidden power types lower it's speed (fire / ground /rock)
- did i mention hidden power it's it's only coverage (other than the plethora of grass moves it gets)
- frail (sub + bj would mitigate this some tho)

Also most of Snivy's switchins who dont care about it's coverage combo, doesn't wanna deal with Glare. So either way the Snivy does it's job.

 

[boo836]

Also, I'm going to renominate Ponyta for A. As far as physical walls go, Pony kinda sucks. It checks little as a general defender, usually finding itself struggling to deal with the likes of Drilbur, Archen, Timburr, Tirt, Fletchling, ect. It's got decent but few support options, but lacks the bulk to use it properly.

That said, it does check some great Pokemon, such as Mienfoo, Pawn in some cases, Spritz, Ferro, and more. But it isn't remotely comparable to Timburr, Fletch, Abra, and Chou. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

[sam-testings]

Bunnelby: B+ Rank ---> A- Rank

What is this Bunny doing in B+ Rank? I've used Bunnelby a bunch and it never ceases to impress me. On Sticky Web teams, it's absolutely incredible. It cleans up late-game thanks to the opponent's lowered Speed mitigating Bunnelby's biggest flaw: poor Speed when facing offense. Bunnelby 2HKOes, if not OHKOes, a large portion of the metagame. What makes it deserve the raise, however, is how reliable it is at keeping Sticky Web up. Bunnelby places so much pressure on the opponent's team through its insanely powerful Return and coverage. Stone Edge is powerful enough that it has a chance to OHKO Vullaby from full health, and also KOes 100% of the time when Stealth Rock is up. Stone Edge in itself is a great move on Bunnelby for hitting Archen switch ins and Vullaby. Bunnelby's also got access to Quick Attack, which is exceptionally useful because it does a lot more damage than one would expect and is helpful to pick off set up sweepers! Bunnelby's offensive pressure, raw power, and great use on Sticky Webs are what lead me to believe that Bunnelby warrants a raise.

The main problem with bunnelby is that it requires a lot of team support to pull it off, and its really easy to play around with. Stone Edge is a move that requires you to hit or else your screwed pretty much, and if it misses, you pretty much die. Its really frail and I'm pretty sure it dies to the almighty fletch lord acrobatics. As you said, it requires sticky web to be up in order to actually outspend, and quick attack is pretty much trying to kill with an azumarill aqua jet without the belly drum boost.

 

[Kavatika]

in response to kavatika's post (someone tell me how to quote idk how lol), even knocked off or statused stuff like mienfoo can do it's job. porygon has a significantly harder time checking stuff once it's knocked off, hindering it from doing it's job. My main point of that post is that archen, which is probably the lowest mon in A, is better than Porygon. I'm not saying that porygon isn't good at doing what it does, i'm saying that it's not as good at doing what it does as the pokemon in A+. if you disagree, please post why porygon is as good as the pokemon in A+.

Hit "reply" towards the bottom of the post you want to quote.

First, let's look at what Porygon can do:

• Through its sheer bulk, it can reliably check shell smashers, Abra, fletchling, Chinchou, Gastly, Carvanha, staryu, and more stuff. keep in mind that even with the offensive set, barring Omanyte and shellder, it can still handle all of them, even if it can't do it as often in a match.
• Its moveset can easily be modified to fit its team. if you need a Archen/fletchling/pumpkaboo/etc check, you can run ice beam. if you're already somewhat weak to fighting-types, you can easily run psychic and and deal at worst around 50% to all fighting-types bar scraggy. you can also run HP Fire or Fight to handle steel-types, thunderbolt to reliably beat shell smashers, etc. not to mention, a download set can really hurt teams with simply Tri Attack even if you don't invest in SpA.
• If it carries Trace, it can block Volt Switch from Chinchou, steal regen from opposing mons for a quick recovery, take flame body from pony/larv and potentially burn a fighting-type/Pawniard switch-in, copy sprout's chlorophyll and threaten it (works better if you run mambo's 14 speed set), check snubbull by copying its intimidate, etc

So overall, Porygon checks a lot of stuff for its team through its bulk and Trace, or it can sacrifice some of its bulk to be a potent offensive threat and still check a lot of what it needs to.

Even though you seem to want me to compare Porygon to Archen, I'm not going to, because they offer generally different roles (Archen checks flying-types/birdspam for offense and provides Defog OR Stealth Rock). Instead, I'll compare it to Timburr, which arguably is closest to Porygon as far as its role goes.

• Timburr can reliably check Shell Smashers, Pawniard, Ferroseed, Carvanha, Munchlax, Zigzagoon, etc. It also has Mach Punch to help against offense, but there's still a lot of offensive threats it can't always switch in on, so it will probably have to come in after a kill to RK with Mach Punch. In general, Porygon can switch in about just as much as Timurr can, with reliable recovery and better bulk.
• Offensively, Timburr is able to boost up and sweep and threaten with Knock Off. Porygon cannot set up, but its offensive set has much more immediate power, and can threaten a lot with its coverage, this time with similar bulk. This makes the two pretty evenly matched IMO.

So essentially, Porygon offers enough support to its team that it provides just as much as Timburr, an upper A+ mon. That coupled with the offensive presence it can posses easily makes Porygon A+.