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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
I feel that ponyta possesses most the qualities to rival pawniard and mienfoo at S rank. Most the time when a random little cup player asks for critiques for his team I end up telling them that it's "kind of ponyta weak". Sure there is a lot of fighting weak, foongus weak, fletch weak, abra weak, and pawniard weak teams but ponyta is probably the most common weakness I see in teams. Like they might have one thing ponyta won't want to be matched against like chinchou but once that's dead the whole team is vulnerable to burns, fire type damage, and that sexy speed tier. The best counter for ponyta is awkwardly ponyta itself. Diglet, on the other hand, is definitely the best check, but it's not significant enough to diminish all the amazing potential behind ponyta.
Probably the best thing about ponyta is the the simple threat flame body creates in the use of physical moves (most notably u-turn). Fire types are uncommon in little cup and physical attackers are more predominant than special attackers in this meta which further boosts the value of burns. Spritzee is the most common status remover for those burns but as we all know it matches up poorly vs ponyta. In a way, ponyta is a nice answer to the spritzee/ferroseed core we see on many teams. Now that missy has left, IIRC ponyta now has the highest BST in little cup at 410.
Ultimately, the weakness to stealthrocks opposed to the resistance to it we see in mienfoo and pawniard is probably what holds back ponyta the most. Even with the threat of flame body hax, once ponytas eviolite is knocked off it's significantly easier to take down. Guts Timbur vs ponyta is often a close match up since 2 flare blitz can potentially take timburr out but guts boosted drain punches also take a lot out of ponyta. The combination of Stealth rocks damage and flare blitz recoil can often bring ponyta into a range where something on the opponents team can take it out.
Ponyta is the best fire type and plays a powerful role in LC. It deserves more usage than the ~10% it has compare to mienfoo/pawniards/etc, but ponyta doesn't quite possess the qualities to move up to S rank IMO. Besides the weaknesses to rocks and recoil damage there are other inconveniences for our fire horsey. It will never have the potential to check anything that shell smashers, it is weak to aqua jet, and as I said diglet is an deadly trapper for it.
Probably the best thing about ponyta is the the simple threat flame body creates in the use of physical moves (most notably u-turn). Fire types are uncommon in little cup and physical attackers are more predominant than special attackers in this meta which further boosts the value of burns. Spritzee is the most common status remover for those burns but as we all know it matches up poorly vs ponyta. In a way, ponyta is a nice answer to the spritzee/ferroseed core we see on many teams. Now that missy has left, IIRC ponyta now has the highest BST in little cup at 410.
Ultimately, the weakness to stealthrocks opposed to the resistance to it we see in mienfoo and pawniard is probably what holds back ponyta the most. Even with the threat of flame body hax, once ponytas eviolite is knocked off it's significantly easier to take down. Guts Timbur vs ponyta is often a close match up since 2 flare blitz can potentially take timburr out but guts boosted drain punches also take a lot out of ponyta. The combination of Stealth rocks damage and flare blitz recoil can often bring ponyta into a range where something on the opponents team can take it out.
Ponyta is the best fire type and plays a powerful role in LC. It deserves more usage than the ~10% it has compare to mienfoo/pawniards/etc, but ponyta doesn't quite possess the qualities to move up to S rank IMO. Besides the weaknesses to rocks and recoil damage there are other inconveniences for our fire horsey. It will never have the potential to check anything that shell smashers, it is weak to aqua jet, and as I said diglet is an deadly trapper for it.
I think a preliminary rise to C-rank is suitable for now, it's a substantial threat, and it can shred through teams late game after Grass-resists are gone, but I'd like to play against and with it a little more before I form a more solid opinion.
Snivy to C.
Snivy to C.
Ponyta is what makes Chinchou almost 100% mandatory on all teams but i wouldn't put it at S rank, it doesn't have enough independent strength on it's own due to being SR weak to justify S rank, unlike Mienfoo and Pawn who do very well without the support of other mons. Good to see that you guys realize the power of Pony, i remember when you fuckers put this thing at low A rank
A fire type can be top tier, taking 22% on rocks as only downside isn't enough to bannish a mon from top tiers. I'd like to point out the fact that nobody is able to spinblock effectively, besides pump, which has several downsides.
Having Drilbur in its team isn't so much of a prize to pay, given how powerful he currently is.
Having Drilbur in its team isn't so much of a prize to pay, given how powerful he currently is.
Aaron's Aron
A concussion update in my info tab
It isn't the only downside it has though. Having to take recoil from Flare Blitz in addition to the Steal Rock damage can leave it vulnerable to often. It can't keep taking all this damage and healing up over and over again because of Morning Sun's low PP. Now it can take hits and heal, but then it struggles to kill too. Often times once you decide to Flare Blitz and get the KO, Ponyta is to weak to take another hit. This is patched up a little by its 19 Speed so it can heal before being attacked again, but then the opponent will just knock you back down to low HP again. Ponyta is still a great Pokemon, and A+ reflects that well I think. If it had no Stealth Rock weakness or no recoil on Flare Blitz it could survive much longer while killing things. However, having both of these drawbacks keep it from S Rank in my opinion.
By the way, why don't we play fire blast pony ?
It has great SpA too, and doesn't take recoil. I'm not sure that's an option, but why not considering it ?
It has great SpA too, and doesn't take recoil. I'm not sure that's an option, but why not considering it ?
Aaron's Aron
A concussion update in my info tab
Well Fire Blast can miss (85% Accuracy), is weaker (it was nerfed to 110 power in Gen 6 remember), has three times less PP than Flare Blitz, and Ponyta's Attack is higher than its Special Attack too. I suppose you could run it, but you will just miss some KOs and miss in total a fair amount too.
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As Aaron said since Fire blast has less power and pp, it will never be as good on ponytas base 65 SpA than Flare blitz with its 85 Attack.
Plus the only other move that Ponyta could use is Solarbeam, and that Requires the sun to work, which at the same time, means it either has to have a vulpix partner, or run sunny day.
Nominating Stunky for B rank.
+Good typing
+Defog
+probs best pursuit trapped behind pawn
+Good ability in Aftermath
+Hits key 17 Spe
-Maimed by Diglett
-No Poison STAB
-Lacks Knock Off
Pros and cons list aside (sure I've missed a few on both sides) Stunky is a solid hazard remover with priority and pursuit. Really good at removing Abra and Gastly from play, although there are some better pokemon than it, it can definitely hold its own in B.
+Good typing
+Defog
+probs best pursuit trapped behind pawn
+Good ability in Aftermath
+Hits key 17 Spe
-Maimed by Diglett
-No Poison STAB
-Lacks Knock Off
Pros and cons list aside (sure I've missed a few on both sides) Stunky is a solid hazard remover with priority and pursuit. Really good at removing Abra and Gastly from play, although there are some better pokemon than it, it can definitely hold its own in B.
A few mor negatives for Stunky:
- Cant have Sucker Punch and Play Rough
- No Gunk Shot or Poison Jab
- Pretty weak: it cant even OHKO Ferroseed with Fire Blast unless it is running a +SpA nature with full investment (if I recall correctly)
- Outclassed by both Pawniard and Houndour at Pursuit Trapping
However, a few positives you missed:
+ Has access to both Memento and Explosion
+ Hits stellar 18 Spe
+ Best switchin to both Abra and Gastly in the tier
+ has a very fast Taunt
+ Has priority inboth Sucker Punch and Feint
+ Has Fire Blast, Taunt, and many other moves it can utilize
I think these positives definitely outweight its negatives, though. Definitely should move up to mid B! :)
- Cant have Sucker Punch and Play Rough
- No Gunk Shot or Poison Jab
- Pretty weak: it cant even OHKO Ferroseed with Fire Blast unless it is running a +SpA nature with full investment (if I recall correctly)
- Outclassed by both Pawniard and Houndour at Pursuit Trapping
However, a few positives you missed:
+ Has access to both Memento and Explosion
+ Hits stellar 18 Spe
+ Best switchin to both Abra and Gastly in the tier
+ has a very fast Taunt
+ Has priority in
+ Has Fire Blast, Taunt, and many other moves it can utilize
I think these positives definitely outweight its negatives, though. Definitely should move up to mid B! :)
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In response to some people above me:
I did say it has no Poison STAB, but I forgot about Sludge Bomb. A mixed set isn't really out of the question.
Stunky doesn't have a Fighting weakness so it can actually trap Abra and Gastly quite nicely.
After testing, (or attempting to, at least) Stunky can't have Play Rough with Sucker Punch.
It has a bit of 4MSS between Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Sludge Bomb, Fire Blast, and Defog
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Still, with all of this said, it's a very good Defogger and Pursuit trapper that has the ability to beat Ferroseed 1v1. Definitely needs to be B rank.
Edit: Houndour is in Mid B rank, and they are somewhat comparable. Houndour has more stopping power and offensive presence, with a weakness to Fighting and Rock. Stunky can be played more "recklessly" or defensively due to its superb defensive typing leaving it with one weakness, and it Pursuit traps better. They both have pros and cons and should be in the sam rank at the very least.
I did say it has no Poison STAB, but I forgot about Sludge Bomb. A mixed set isn't really out of the question.
Stunky doesn't have a Fighting weakness so it can actually trap Abra and Gastly quite nicely.
After testing, (or attempting to, at least) Stunky can't have Play Rough with Sucker Punch.
It has a bit of 4MSS between Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Sludge Bomb, Fire Blast, and Defog
---
Still, with all of this said, it's a very good Defogger and Pursuit trapper that has the ability to beat Ferroseed 1v1. Definitely needs to be B rank.
Edit: Houndour is in Mid B rank, and they are somewhat comparable. Houndour has more stopping power and offensive presence, with a weakness to Fighting and Rock. Stunky can be played more "recklessly" or defensively due to its superb defensive typing leaving it with one weakness, and it Pursuit traps better. They both have pros and cons and should be in the sam rank at the very least.
Aaron's Aron
A concussion update in my info tab
Okay, I did the analysis for Stunky and I must say there is no way it should be B. B- should be tops for it. It is just to weak offensively, and can't do much unless the opponent is already weakened. It also lacks defense, even with an Eviolite. There are better Pokemon to Defog, Pursuit is disappointing against most Pokemon, and it has to many moveset illegalities. Memento is good, but it is just to weak and frail overall. B- is okay because it shows how it is kinda not suckish but still isn't the best Pokemon ever. When it gets to B though I start to feel like it says, "Hey, this Pokemon is pretty good!" It is not.
sam-testings
What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
I would like aipom to move up to B+ or to A-.
It sits an an amazing speed tier that out speeds nearly everything else, and it has access to fake out, brick break, knock off, and a skill link fury swipes that breaks sturdies and focus sashes. It is basically a faster and more frail Mienfoo, and with a life orb, Aipom can wreck some teams completely.
EDIT: You could replace fury swipes with double slap if your that afraid of missing. You even get elemental punches if you want those too. =P
It sits an an amazing speed tier that out speeds nearly everything else, and it has access to fake out, brick break, knock off, and a skill link fury swipes that breaks sturdies and focus sashes. It is basically a faster and more frail Mienfoo, and with a life orb, Aipom can wreck some teams completely.
EDIT: You could replace fury swipes with double slap if your that afraid of missing. You even get elemental punches if you want those too. =P
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The highest aipom could go is maybe B, but not B+ and definitely not A-. Aipom is a scary mon to face, but pokemon like bunnelby, larvesta, and hippo are all notably better and either are more threatening or offer more utility. I feel that aipom fits more among tailow, corphish and houndour than bunnelby larvesta and hippo.
I completely agree with tazz here and I would agree that Aipom could move up to B not any higher though. Aipom fits B much more and it is very common among newer players as it is easy to use and can offer some utility and offensive pressure due to speed tier but Fury Miss(Swipes) just can not get the KOes and can miss rather often.
I'd like to nominate Zorua to C-/C
Access to Nasty Plot and Swords Dance combined with Illusion gives him many opportunity to boost. On the special side it has decent coverage of Dark Pulse/Extrasensory/HP Fight while on the physical it has access to Knock Off and Sucker Punch that hit really hard. U-Turn gives him momentum and can give him a niche in volturn team
Access to Nasty Plot and Swords Dance combined with Illusion gives him many opportunity to boost. On the special side it has decent coverage of Dark Pulse/Extrasensory/HP Fight while on the physical it has access to Knock Off and Sucker Punch that hit really hard. U-Turn gives him momentum and can give him a niche in volturn team
absdaddy
Banned deucer.
stopped reading here, b- is being generous enough for Aipom
As much as i wanna see zorua getting some attention, it literally has many many STAB options and like no coverage.
Notice that almost ALL of it's good moves are Dark type attacking moves. hidden power will hinder it's already low defensive stats, making it susceptible to prio and bulky attackers. knock off helps alleviate the latter but you're forced to stay in and take a hit to punish on the next turn.
C- is generous imo. If you want a dark type that hits 17 and hits hard doing it, dour is here and has better overall coverage.
zorua DOES have illusion which is very mindgamey against those who dont pay attention but in lc where speeds are close together, it's much harder to play the mindgames that got it banned from RU. also zoroark has better coverage and matchups than zorua would have. esense doesnt normally 2hko fighters and they can just ohko with drain punch anyways...
but zorua is cool and deserves a bit of shine at least imo.
Dark Pulse / Night Daze
Knock Off
Extrasensory
Foul Play
Memento
Pursuit
Sub
Sucker Punch
Taunt
Trick
U-Turn
Knock Off
Extrasensory
Foul Play
Memento
Pursuit
Sub
Sucker Punch
Taunt
Trick
U-Turn
Notice that almost ALL of it's good moves are Dark type attacking moves. hidden power will hinder it's already low defensive stats, making it susceptible to prio and bulky attackers. knock off helps alleviate the latter but you're forced to stay in and take a hit to punish on the next turn.
C- is generous imo. If you want a dark type that hits 17 and hits hard doing it, dour is here and has better overall coverage.
zorua DOES have illusion which is very mindgamey against those who dont pay attention but in lc where speeds are close together, it's much harder to play the mindgames that got it banned from RU. also zoroark has better coverage and matchups than zorua would have. esense doesnt normally 2hko fighters and they can just ohko with drain punch anyways...
but zorua is cool and deserves a bit of shine at least imo.
Nominating Dwebble for A
I know this is at topic that has been brought up many times (at least in early XY) but I think dwebble should be ranked quite a bit higher then he is atm. I'm not saying this because of his SR set but rather his berrysmasher set. I've used this set on many a team and got so sweeps with him it's crazy. He does have some quite obvious flaws like his not great relationship with mienfoo but his strenghths outweigh those flaws easily. His raw power good coverage and great speed are amazing if used right. and i think the way this meta has changed since early XY has gave him the edge he needs to be moved up to A. Admittedly I haven't been active in quite a while. This is the first team I built in quite a long time. I jumped in and so far havent lost a match since these three sweeps were done in consecution.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204850547
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204851872
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204853135
I know this is at topic that has been brought up many times (at least in early XY) but I think dwebble should be ranked quite a bit higher then he is atm. I'm not saying this because of his SR set but rather his berrysmasher set. I've used this set on many a team and got so sweeps with him it's crazy. He does have some quite obvious flaws like his not great relationship with mienfoo but his strenghths outweigh those flaws easily. His raw power good coverage and great speed are amazing if used right. and i think the way this meta has changed since early XY has gave him the edge he needs to be moved up to A. Admittedly I haven't been active in quite a while. This is the first team I built in quite a long time. I jumped in and so far havent lost a match since these three sweeps were done in consecution.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204850547
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204851872
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204853135
In my opinion, Dwebble is sitting at a very nice position in B+, and this is because it is an excellent hazard stacker and not shell smasher. The Shell Smash set depicted auto loses to any fighting type bar Croagunk, as +2 Earthquake really only tickles them. With a Stealth Rock weakness, the prevalence of knockoff, and the requirement to remove fighting types in order to sweep, Dwebble just needs tons of support to function properly. Putting Dwebble in A rank would make it ranked just as high as Tirtouga, which completely outclasses Dwebble as a smasher because of its better STAB and access to priority. Dwebble is really never the best choice for shell smasher, as Tirt is better as a sturdy smasher and Omanyte has raw power behind it. Dwebble's hazard stack set is the reason it is in B+; its ability to get guaranteed layers of hazards up is really nice, Knock Off is good for utility, Rock Blast is an excellent multi-hit STAB, and Counter can be used to bop them physical attackers trying to knock off its juice or whatever. Dwebble is an excellent choice to lay hazards on HO teams, letting it get a rather nice position in B+. The Smash set is simply outclassed. (Also, when using a shell smasher, setting up first turn is usually not the wisest idea. Most teams will carry a check to that Pokemon, like Mienfoo in this case, and your sweep will be ended early. The replays shown do not accurately depict SS Dwebble's prowess in higher battling, as sweeping low ladder is not a huge accomplishment.)
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