Linearity of the Main Game Story Lines

[Antar]

So I'm just about to finish re-playing Platinum, and with it, I'll have played all four regions recently enough to have this information fresh in my mind.

In any video game, I think it's interesting to note the degree to which you must go through it in a set order. In every game I can think of, you can't just rush to the final boss first--if you try, there's either a physical impasse or some NPC telling you to turn back (although I think it was FFIII where you could try and take on the final boss early, but without completing another quest, there was no possible way to win). The Pokemon games do this a lot--there's quite often trees/rocks/boulders that stand in your way and force you to stop and get gym badges, but the thing I've noted is that the DEGREE to which they do this vastly changed over the generations, with Kanto allowing quite amazing freedom whereas Sinnoh (at least Platinum--don't remember DP) requiring you to beat each gym in an EXACT order.

To list it explicity, each game requires you to complete the following gyms in the following orders:

Kanto (RGBYFrLg)
1. Petwer (annoying guy keeps insisting you challenge Brock)
2. Cerulean (need Cut to proceed)
3. Believe it or not, you can complete the following in any order: Vermillion, Celadon, Fuchsia
4a. You need Surf from Fuchsia to get to Cinnabar
8. Viridian -- Giovanni only comes back after you've beaten the other 7 and, I *think* beaten Team Rocket.

Johto (GSCHgSs)
1. Violet
2. Azalea
3. Goldenrod
4. Ecruteak (need Surf to continue, IIRC)
5. You can get the Cianwood, Olivine and Mahogany gym badges in any order
8. Blackthorn--an NPC will block your way until you get the previous three
As for the Kanto badges, you can get the first seven in literally any order, but you can only challenge Blue last.

Hoenn (RSE)
1. Rustboro
2. You can actually skip the Dewford badge if you don't mind walking in the dark and get to Mauville first, but Rock Smash blocks your way past Mauville, so you need that one before going further
3a. Lavaridge. Again, you can get this one BEFORE Dewford
5. Petalburg. Dad requires four badges to battle him. Beyond that and you need Surf.
6. Fortree. A Kecleon blocks your way
7. Mosdeep
8. You need Dive to go to Sootopolis

Sinnoh (of Platinum. IIRC, there's some minor differences with DP)
1. Oreburgh. Need Rock Smash to proceed.
2. Eterna. Need Cut to proceed.
3. Hearthome. NPCs block the exits until she's down.
4. Veilstone. You can get to Pastoria early, but Maylene is apparently challenging Crasher until you beat her.
5. Pastoria. Need Surf to proceed.
6. Canalave. Need Stength to proceed.
7. Snowpoint. Need Rock Climb to beat Team Galactic, but only thing that's keeping you from Sunnyshore is another obnoxious NPC.
8. Sunnyshore



DPP by FAR has the most rigid plot, but it's also one of the better plot lines, IMO. So Linear Storytelling isn't a bad thing per se... I just thought it was fascinating to see the difference between the original games and the most recent new releases.

 

[Wichu]

In D/P, Hearthome's Gym is 5th, and I believe 3 and 4 are interchangeable (Veilstone and Pastoria). Platinum was purposely made more linear.

 

[Phi]

Personally, I wouldn't mind so much of this if it wasn't enforced by an ever increasing litany of NPCs and HMs. Also, I think you just need to beat Team Rocket to get to Blackthorn in the original GSC, but don't quote me on that.

But really, I really really really would like Black and White (and Grey?) to discard the increasingly ramped up plots based on Legendary and Mythical Pokemon and instead just let us become simply the biggest badass in the land again. That's the most obnoxious part of DPPt, for me - I remember not getting rock climb on the snow route in platinum, playing until team galactic took Mt. Coronet, and then having to spend like an hour trying to find this HM that's literally buried in the middle of nowhere so that I can stop Team Galactic just in time. The fact of the matter is, I wouldn't have cared if the game hadn't so unrealistically raised the stakes in the first place, and rock climb was just another useful tool I might need.

 

[Antar]

From the interviews I've read, my money is on a more open-ended format with no universe-dominating legendaries.

I will say that whereas Team Rocket of Johto and Teams Aqua & Magma were more comic relief than anything else, Cyrus is actually pretty damn scary. He's a straight-up sociopath. I thought Platinum, what with the Distortion World and all, is actually my favorite game.

But I absolutely don't think the bigger-and-bigger bads formula is sustainable, and I would welcome a return to local Yakuza villians with simple motives (that is, greed).

 

[ck49]

are you sure you must battle fortree's gym? you can get the thing to find keckleons then move on to lilycove, then slateport, then mount pyre, and beat the base. You can go to mosdeep then, so you can skip fortree. I havent tried it, but I started it (then got too bored of walking everywhere, from slateport back to pyre). I think you might not have to beat the gym to beat the elite 4, since once my friend used walk through walls cheat and skipped dewford completely and made it to the e4. Of course, I bet someone forces you to beat fortree, but I think you can beat mosdep before.

 

[Antar]

are you sure you must battle fortree's gym? you can get the thing to find keckleons then move on to lilycove, then slateport, then mount pyre, and beat the base. You can go to mosdeep then, so you can skip fortree. I havent tried it, but I started it (then got too bored of walking everywhere, from slateport back to pyre). I think you might not have to beat the gym to beat the elite 4, since once my friend used walk through walls cheat and skipped dewford completely and made it to the e4. Of course, I bet someone forces you to beat fortree, but I think you can beat mosdep before.

Sorry, that's right. Kecleon blocks the gym, too. It's an NPC on a bridge that makes you beat Winona first, IIRC.

 

[Alan]

Kanto (RGBYFrLg)
1. Petwer (annoying guy keeps insisting you challenge Brock)
2. Cerulean (need Cut to proceed)
3. Believe it or not, you can complete the following in any order: Vermillion, Celadon, Fuchsia
4a. You need Surf from Fuchsia to get to Cinnabar
8. Viridian -- Giovanni only comes back after you've beaten the other 7 and, I *think* beaten Team Rocket.

I think you mean Vermillion? You need Cut so that you can battle Lt. Surge and go to Rock Tunnel.

Also, not sure what you mean by beaten team rocket. If you mean Sliph Co. then yes because you have to beat Sliph Co. then battle Sabrina/Koga (can go in any order), then Blaine (dont forget to bring burn heals!), then you battle Giovanni which causes him to disband Team Rocket. I feel like such a dork being able to remember all that off the top of my head .-.

Also, how are you just now realizing all pokemon games are the same? I realized that in when I first played Ruby after the others.

 

[Antar]

I think you mean Vermillion? You need Cut so that you can battle Lt. Surge and go to Rock Tunnel.

Also, not sure what you mean by beaten team rocket. If you mean Sliph Co. then yes because you have to beat Sliph Co. then battle Sabrina/Koga (can go in any order), then Blaine (dont forget to bring burn heals!), then you battle Giovanni which causes him to disband Team Rocket. I feel like such a dork being able to remember all that off the top of my head .-.

Also, how are you just now realizing all pokemon games are the same? I realized that in when I first played Ruby after the others.

Good catch. I remembered wrong that you needed Cut to get OUT of Cerulean, but that's not true.

And actually, the point of my post is how DIFFERENT the games are, at least in terms of how free you are to explore and wander off the beaten path.

 

[Vratix]

I think you mean Vermillion? You need Cut so that you can battle Lt. Surge and go to Rock Tunnel.

Except you can't use CUT outside of battle until you get the Cascade Badge from Misty. So Cerulean is still mandatory second whether you want to fight Surge before you go through Rock Tunnel or not.

 

[Mjolnir]

Cyrus is actually pretty damn scary. He's a straight-up sociopath. I thought Platinum, what with the Distortion World and all, is actually my favorite game.

This. I have to say I enjoyed his talks about the useless feelings, and connections. Made me sort of think about his perspective for a bit.

I have to say the lack of choice is pretty sad, but I have been spoiled by my open ended games and the like. Perhaps I wanted to join team rocket? Maybe stealing a pokemon is easier than spelunking in caves, or grass.

Maybe I want to offer my input as opposed to the ideas being forced on me.....

A dialogue option may be welcomed lol.

 

[zarator]

I think that yes, the R/B/Y gen offered the widest range of choices as far as walkthroughs go whereas D/P/P was the most rigid in that respect. But, the reason why (at least, that is the general feeling) Diamond/Pearl (and especially Platinum)'s storyline was the most appreciated lies in what we consider most relevant in an RPG. I think (or rather, hope) that a lot of you have played some other RPG game like the Final Fantasy ones. You will notice that they have a much more rigid storyline than Pokémon (no matter what sidequests may make you feel), but nonetheless we like those plots so much. Why? Because - to put it in a simple way - we don't care of the fact that we have to go through A before reaching B, as long as the path up to A and later to B is interesting. While D/P/P gave us very little freedom, the routes themselves (none of the old R/B/Y or FR/LG ones can be compared to D/P/P ones in terms of complexity) and the events they feature (like the fleeing Galactic grunt in the route to Pastoria) make them a lot more enjoying than, say, route 12 or RBY Cycling Road, despte the fact that you could choose which one to take in order to get to Fuchsia.

tl;dr: We prefer Platinum to Red or Blue because, while the walkthrough is more rigid, it is also much more interesting and, if you pass me the term, eventful

 

[cantab]

The thing is that Pokemon's plots have always been rubbish. Emerald's is the best, and even it's not THAT good.

The coast road from Lavender/Vermillion to Fuschia is one of the most annoying routes in Pokemon though. Way long, hardly anything to break it up (fishing man's house, WOW), a maze to make it feel even longer, no Pokemon centre or rest house even in the remakes. That kind of route would be understandable if it went somewhere like the Pokemon League, Mt Silver, even Flower Paradise, but not as an ordinary route connecting two ordinary cities.

 

[Tortferngatr]

I think that yes, the R/B/Y gen offered the widest range of choices as far as walkthroughs go whereas D/P/P was the most rigid in that respect. But, the reason why (at least, that is the general feeling) Diamond/Pearl (and especially Platinum)'s storyline was the most appreciated lies in what we consider most relevant in an RPG. I think (or rather, hope) that a lot of you have played some other RPG game like the Final Fantasy ones. You will notice that they have a much more rigid storyline than Pokémon (no matter what sidequests may make you feel), but nonetheless we like those plots so much. Why? Because - to put it in a simple way - we don't care of the fact that we have to go through A before reaching B, as long as the path up to A and later to B is interesting. While D/P/P gave us very little freedom, the routes themselves (none of the old R/B/Y or FR/LG ones can be compared to D/P/P ones in terms of complexity) and the events they feature (like the fleeing Galactic grunt in the route to Pastoria) make them a lot more enjoying than, say, route 12 or RBY Cycling Road, despte the fact that you could choose which one to take in order to get to Fuchsia.

tl;dr: We prefer Platinum to Red or Blue because, while the walkthrough is more rigid, it is also much more interesting and, if you pass me the term, eventful

Indeed. That grunt was fun.

While I do have to admit Lance's role in HG/SS is decent and the fact you see other people using HMs, the Distortion World was the best dungeon in the series, in both design and climactic-ness. The Radio Tower had nothing on that thing. I would SERIOUSLY want the Distortion World when AdamantDiamond and LustrousPearl version come out in Gen 6...

So is it generally agreed that the plot was the Sinnoh games' strongest point?

 

[Grammarian]

Repetitiveness plays a huge role in the overall game experience. It's one thing to battle an entire cult of galactic grunts. It's another thing entirely if they all have low-leveled Zubat, Wurmple, Glameow, and Stunky.

Overall, the most negative factor in all Pokemon games is the overall repetitiveness. Pokemon is a children's RPG, but it wouldn't hurt to either level up or at least evolve the Pokemon you face during the slew of trainer battles.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Repetitiveness plays a huge role in the overall game experience. It's one thing to battle an entire cult of galactic grunts. It's another thing entirely if they all have low-leveled Zubat, Wurmple, Glameow, and Stunky.

Overall, the most negative factor in all Pokemon games is the overall repetitiveness. Pokemon is a children's RPG, but it wouldn't hurt to either level up or at least evolve the Pokemon you face during the slew of trainer battles.

Actually, they DO get Golbat in Mount Coronet and I think before that...

But yeah, I'd probably want a little more grunty variety in a D/P remake.

 

[cantab]

Grunts ought to have more varied Pokemon. I mean I know they're meant to be uniform grunts devoid of any individuality and all, but then again many of the teams are said to have stolen Pokemon. If you run a gang stealing Pokemon you're going to get all sorts of stuff.

Maybe in Gen 5 they'll finally manage to steal one of YOUR Pokemon!

(Actually way back when I first played Red I thought Bill was gonna nick my Pokemon! I mean NPCs say he'll do anything to get rare Pokemon, and here is me storing them on his PC system.)

 

[Phi]

I think that yes, the R/B/Y gen offered the widest range of choices as far as walkthroughs go whereas D/P/P was the most rigid in that respect. But, the reason why (at least, that is the general feeling) Diamond/Pearl (and especially Platinum)'s storyline was the most appreciated lies in what we consider most relevant in an RPG. I think (or rather, hope) that a lot of you have played some other RPG game like the Final Fantasy ones.

This.
Really, part of what's cool about Pokemon is that in most of the games you're just another dude wandering around the world, one trainer among many whose hometown happens to have a famous professor in it. The "plot" is you becoming the biggest badass trainer by beating all the other badass trainers in the area. Note, in the first couple of generations, legendary Pokemon are a path you can take on the side of the rode that, yes, make you a bigger badass, but aren't necessary. Everything else you must do, including, yes, collecting HMs, contributes to the main goal. I'll admit that DPPt's villains made a lick of sense more than RSE's, but that's mainly because an inherent hatred of everything land or sea based is probably one of the worst motives for any type of criminal activity that I've heard of. So I don't know. If I had to say a particular game had a good "storyline" in the Pokemon series it would be GSC, mainly because GSC's was a sequel to RBY's in every sense of the term - if you became the biggest baddest in RBY, your goal in GSC is to become an even bigger badass.
On the other hand, DPPt made me feel like I was being talked down to, like I was doing something amazing for going where I was told and pressing the A button when other people told me to press the A button. Like, what's Cynthia doing there during that whole entire Dialga/Palkia/Giratina part of team galactic's plan if not telling a trainer she can thoroughly whoop that he's amazing for beating people she can probably beat twice as easy. Simply put, the original games showed me that I was a pretty cool dude by letting the Pokemon I was using speak for themselves. The newer games keep on telling me I'm a freaking hero when I feel like in the end I'm doing half as much.
I dunno. I've been playing Pokemon for more than half my life at this point, and it just feels really hollow playing the newer games. It feels to me like whoever's designing it isn't confident enough in the pure joy of making your monsters better than everyone else's that they keep on stacking on fairly useless crap like Pokemon Contests and a battle system that's gotten more complicated than it's worth.
Ugh, I feel weird saying the battle system is too complicated on Smogon, a site where you're not here if you don't like it. But everyone here has to admit that the act of playing the battle system well is entirely incongruous with actual gameplay. Going for perfect IVs, good EV training, great natures on everything, not to mention awesome movesets, is something that you just don't do "ingame". I dunno, I've gone on a huge tangent at this point, but I'm just trying to say very basically that I think the "better storyline" of DPPt is really a symptom of a game series that continues to change itself over the years by basically just accumulating more and more stuff that's basically tangential to actually playing the game.

 

[Wikey]

Grunts ought to have more varied Pokemon. I mean I know they're meant to be uniform grunts devoid of any individuality and all, but then again many of the teams are said to have stolen Pokemon. If you run a gang stealing Pokemon you're going to get all sorts of stuff.

Maybe in Gen 5 they'll finally manage to steal one of YOUR Pokemon!

(Actually way back when I first played Red I thought Bill was gonna nick my Pokemon! I mean NPCs say he'll do anything to get rare Pokemon, and here is me storing them on his PC system.)

THIS. When I think back of my memories of playing Pokémon as a kid all I think of is how fun it was. But then when I pop the cartridge in and load it up...well...after fighting over 9000 Geodude, Rattata, Zubat, Koffing, and Tentacool? Shit gets old. Quick. I like that some of the trainer's in HGSS have things like Whismur and Tailow, but with ~500 mons there is no reason for 90% of the battles to be against a group of five excessively common monsters.

 

[Colonel Darren]

I used to have this odd idea when I first played Red/Blue. I saw the cities on the Town Map fresh out of Viridian and saw the four cities (Celadon/Vermillion/Lavender/Cerulean) and thought that Saffron was supposed to be one of the final cities, only being unlocked after doing all cities. (Good guess.).

However, I thought that each of the gym leaders you faced in those cities (Yes, at first I thought Lavender had a gym. Go figure.) would get stronger with every badge you had, to make the game harder as you go along.

Perhaps that could be hinted at during Generation 5? A trio of gyms (Likely the starting trio if any) that would become stronger as each member of the trio falls? That could help break up a bit of linearity I would imagine.

 

[Acritter]

I'm really not getting why everyone here likes DPP more than all the previous versions. I personally hated it. It was almost a carbon copy of RSE, with the evil gang trying to capture a legendary Pokemon to achieve their goals. Some of the methods got more interesting (pixie torture), but on the whole, I found it to be an actual chore to finish my Diamond version. More recently, I took up my old Blue version and had an absolute BLAST playing through it. I'd be hard pressed to say what it was that was so brilliant about it, but it was probably the elegance of it all. You had a couple of water routes, a couple of tunnels, a couple of gangster dens, a varied set of Pokemon introduced throughout the game (Pikachu in Viridian Forest- only thing that awesome is Ralts), and a huge amount of ingame trades to be done if you so choose. That felt pretty damn good, let me tell you. Pokemon has never actually been much of a linear game in anything but plot, as it gives you full freedom to customize your party as you choose. In some of the later versions, however, that freedom starts feeling limited as you go through route after route to find MORE FUCKING BIDOOFS. The open feeling of RBY, with its interesting Pokemon without contrived locations (loldesert) means you can get a varied team earlier on, without having to wait for your jaunt to the far north to get your Ice type.

 

[Wafle]

I like what Phi said.

In the original games it was all about you being a total badass trying to usurp the ultimate badass that is Gary Motherfucking Oak. You eventually do and are known across the land. The legendaries were great too, just very strong pokemon that are rarely seen. In R/S/E and D/P/Pt we have the pokemans that created the earth (and everything) which was a little too much.

In the originals it was just you wanting to be the very best that there ever was. Catching them all was your true and final test and training them was your calling. You traveled across the land searching far and wide for these pokemans trying to understand the power that they had so you can be the master. You taught your pokemon new things and in turn they taught you too.

It was simple story yet so effective, I wish they brought this back

 

[Phi]

The legendaries were great too, just very strong pokemon that are rarely seen. In R/S/E and D/P/Pt we have the pokemans that created the earth (and everything) which was a little too much.

I actually don't mind that they know have "god legendary pokemon" or whatever. My problem is that everyone HAS to encounter them on their quest from point A to B, which makes no sense at all. I nearly threw up when I couldn't get to the Elite Four in HeartGold because the "Kimono girls wanted to see me" and that was more important than anything else.

 

[monkymeet]

As unlikely as it would be, I think it would be pretty cool to have level scaling as you beat the gyms. An open world, and eight gyms awaiting your challenge.

 

[Antar]

Perhaps I wanted to join team rocket?

My FAVORITE part of HGSS was when you get to dress up like Team Rocket, and all the NPCs are alternately like "Eep! Don't hurt me!" or "You should be ashamed of your self." It isn't the first time, though, that Pokemon has played around with the idea that the main character isn't the most savory of sorts. Pokemon Colosseum, you're an ex gang member who stole a powerful device and blew up your old gang's hideout.

As unlikely as it would be, I think it would be pretty cool to have level scaling as you beat the gyms. An open world, and eight gyms awaiting your challenge.

This would be awesome. A while ago, I was thinking about if Nintendo made a Pokemon MMO, and I was thinking one of the nice features would be if your starting point could be ANYWHERE in the four regions (as in, you could be a native of Celadon or Sunnyshore, etc.). The only way this idea would work is if the gyms scaled just like you said.

 

[Acritter]

This would be awesome. A while ago, I was thinking about if Nintendo made a Pokemon MMO, and I was thinking one of the nice features would be if your starting point could be ANYWHERE in the four regions (as in, you could be a native of Celadon or Sunnyshore, etc.). The only way this idea would work is if the gyms scaled just like you said.

The problem with that is you would also have to scale TRAINERS, which gets to be rather the daunting proposition. I love it as much as you do, but that's way hard.